OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 24, 2014, 04:39:13 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The Theotokos  (Read 1866 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 5,213


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« on: February 11, 2013, 09:54:19 PM »

Not sure if this is the right board or if I should have taken it to the Protestant-Orthodox board, but I was just wondering, what exactly is the point of venerating the Theotokos so much? I find nothing wrong with it, but I also see nothing to justify how essential it is to us without resorting to really stretched, deductive logic in order to do so. In other words, I see no "smoking gun" argument to justify the amount of veneration we pay to her. In regards to my debates with Protestants who inquire about why I venerate the Theotokos, the conversation usually just ends at me debunking anti-veneration myths, showing that there is nothing wrong with venerating her, but not being able to prove or give a really strong reason as to why we have to or why it is so important.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: BZZT
Posts: 29,238



« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2013, 10:00:29 PM »

I look at it this way. If she is what we say about her, then she deserves it. If she isn't, then Orthodoxy is a sham, and I might as well leave. I don't see a middle ground here where we can say "Well she's not really deserving, but I can live with it." Is it dogmatic? Is it theologoumenon? Is it doctrine? Is it custom? I think these are useless classifications and distinctions here. It is tradition. I don't care if it's Big-T Tradition, or little-t tradition, or Tradition™ or whatever. It's tradition. Deeply felt, deeply embraced, deeply believed tradition. It's one of those things that... if the Church is a truth telling thing, and again if what we say about her is true, then you have to accept it, even if you don't (at this time) understand it or see a perfectly logical path and reasoning for it.

EDIT--To add, I don't think I'll ever understand how God could be contained in a womb, or born of a virgin, etc. Yet I believe. Perhaps someone can quote some hymns that go into exactly how wonderous it is.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 10:02:37 PM by Asteriktos » Logged
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,152


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2013, 10:02:54 PM »

Her obedience to God's will annulled the ancient disobedience of Eve. She conceived, carried, bave birth to, and nurtured the Son of God Himself, Jesus Christ, God Incarnate. What she did dwarfs any other human achievement, before her, since her, and to the end of time, by an unimaginable order of magnitude.

Why wouldn't it be right and proper to love and venerate her as highly as we do?
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2013, 10:46:32 PM »

"And why is this granted to me that the mother of My Lord should come to me?" Luke 1:43, said under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  Good enough for Him, good enough for me.

As Fr. Corapic used to say: "Good enough for Jesus, good enough for you."
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Santagranddad
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ROCA
Posts: 987



« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2013, 11:44:06 PM »

Am I mistaken or was the antipathy to venerating and holding great respect for the Theotokos something not found among such folk as Martin Luther and Calvin? Rather this came along later.....
Logged
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,152


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2013, 12:18:39 AM »

Am I mistaken or was the antipathy to venerating and holding great respect for the Theotokos something not found among such folk as Martin Luther and Calvin? Rather this came along later.....

No, you are not mistaken. The earliest reformers did hold the Mother of God in high esteem, including attesting to her ever-virginity. The denigration and sidelining of the Virgin came later.
Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2013, 12:22:33 AM »

How much of the Theotokos' life do we actually know, outside of the Bible? I thought there was an Orthodox book about her life but I can't recall it.

Nigla Qian Zish (sorry I don't know your name from memory) said this book gave him a great reverence for her and become much more of a person to him. Maybe that's what is needed here.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,027


« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2013, 12:29:08 AM »

We venerate the Theotokos because she is the mother of our Lord, God, and Savior, Jesus Christ. Is this somehow not enough?
Logged

Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: BZZT
Posts: 29,238



« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2013, 12:31:08 AM »

How much of the Theotokos' life do we actually know, outside of the Bible? I thought there was an Orthodox book about her life but I can't recall it.

Nigla Qian Zish (sorry I don't know your name from memory) said this book gave him a great reverence for her and become much more of a person to him. Maybe that's what is needed here.

Logged
Antonis
Prodigal
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 997



« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2013, 12:48:44 AM »

The end of said book has quite a few quotes from the fathers on veneration of the Most Holy Mother of God. A few sound nearly "mediatrix of all graces"ish!  Shocked
Logged

For peace in the whole world,
for the stability of the holy churches of God,
and for the unity of all,
let us pray to the Lord.
dzheremi
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,027


« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2013, 01:02:13 AM »

If I remember correctly, one of the introductions to the Verses of the Cymbals in the Coptic Church (I don't remember which, but it's the one that starts: Amwini maren`ouwst...) has a verse that says all peace in the world comes through the intercessions and prayers of the Theotokos. The first time I read that, I thought "Woah! Protestants must think we're absolutely nuts!" Cheesy
Logged

yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,100


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2013, 01:10:35 AM »

Her obedience to God's will annulled the ancient disobedience of Eve. She conceived, carried, bave birth to, and nurtured the Son of God Himself, Jesus Christ, God Incarnate. What she did dwarfs any other human achievement, before her, since her, and to the end of time, by an unimaginable order of magnitude.

Why wouldn't it be right and proper to love and venerate her as highly as we do?

The Akathist hymn has a verse "hail to you (Theotokos), the redemption of Eve's tears".

I am not sure if that speaks of the redemption of womankind being the first sinner....... 
Or IF Christ did not have the original sin, incepted by Eve...

Not sure.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 7,806


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2013, 01:14:18 AM »

Not sure if this is the right board or if I should have taken it to the Protestant-Orthodox board, but I was just wondering, what exactly is the point of venerating the Theotokos so much? I find nothing wrong with it, but I also see nothing to justify how essential it is to us without resorting to really stretched, deductive logic in order to do so. In other words, I see no "smoking gun" argument to justify the amount of veneration we pay to her. In regards to my debates with Protestants who inquire about why I venerate the Theotokos, the conversation usually just ends at me debunking anti-veneration myths, showing that there is nothing wrong with venerating her, but not being able to prove or give a really strong reason as to why we have to or why it is so important.

The Most Holy Theotokos gave birth to God the Word in the flesh.

The Gospel of St. Luke recalls her magnificat: And all generations shall call me blessed.

How fitting it is for us to call her blessed and most holy, for she gave birth to the savior of our souls.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,152


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2013, 01:15:20 AM »

Her obedience to God's will annulled the ancient disobedience of Eve. She conceived, carried, bave birth to, and nurtured the Son of God Himself, Jesus Christ, God Incarnate. What she did dwarfs any other human achievement, before her, since her, and to the end of time, by an unimaginable order of magnitude.

Why wouldn't it be right and proper to love and venerate her as highly as we do?

The Akathist hymn has a verse "hail to you (Theotokos), the redemption of Eve's tears".

I am not sure if that speaks of the redemption of womankind being the first sinner....... 
Or IF Christ did not have the original sin, incepted by Eve...

Not sure.

You only quoted part of that couplet. Here is the whole couplet from the first ikos of the Akathist:

Hail, restoration of fallen Adam.
Hail, redemption of the tears of Eve.

Logged
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,100


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2013, 01:22:56 AM »



Her obedience to God's will annulled the ancient disobedience of Eve. She conceived, carried, bave birth to, and nurtured the Son of God Himself, Jesus Christ, God Incarnate. What she did dwarfs any other human achievement, before her, since her, and to the end of time, by an unimaginable order of magnitude.

Why wouldn't it be right and proper to love and venerate her as highly as we do?

The Akathist hymn has a verse "hail to you (Theotokos), the redemption of Eve's tears".

I am not sure if that speaks of the redemption of womankind being the first sinner....... 
Or IF Christ did not have the original sin, incepted by Eve...

Not sure.

You only quoted part of that couplet. Here is the whole couplet from the first ikos of the Akathist:

Hail, restoration of fallen Adam.
Hail, redemption of the tears of Eve.



There's a beautiful example of this on the GOARCH web site in the multimedia.  Older video. They put it on youtube!  Finally, no more quicktime!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1aTQe869rg

^^^^JamesR there may be explanations in that video that will help.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 7,806


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2013, 01:44:58 AM »

James,

Have you ever heard or read the Paracleisis to the Most Holy Theotokos?

This is a Greek Byzantine tradition as this Supplication to the Theotokos is sung during the Fast of the Most Holy Theotokos in preparation for the feast of her Dormition, August 15.

This Paracleisis is prayed for those who are mentally, physically, and spiritually sick. Actually all of us fall into at least one category as we are sinners in need of God's mercy. Additionally, priests read the names submitted by the faithful for all who are sick (in need of prayers), and for all those who have fallen asleep in Christ.

Here is the Paracleisis in English by Eikona

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_6e9T1FpG8

A few lines --

Quote
From all distresses and dangers deliver me.

To God and the savior you've given birth.

A protection and shelter I have with you in my life.

Disperse the storm of my grief
And the soul's confusion cast far from me.

I am being tested O Virgin,
Come and bring comfort to me.

Deliver us all your servants from danger, O Theotokos.


Here is the Paracleisis in Greek. You can hear how joyful it is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F9-cc_lOVw


Here is O Pure Virgin, a hymn by St. Nectarios of Aegina,
and it is translated into English.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkqZbFQb0O0
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 02:18:09 AM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 5,213


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2013, 02:24:46 AM »

Thanks for all the resources everyone! I'll be watching all the links tonight before bed.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 7,806


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2013, 02:25:54 AM »

Thanks for all the resources everyone! I'll be watching all the links tonight before bed.

I shall remember you in my prayers tonight, James.

Here is the complete Paracleisis. The other link only had part I.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZg-Es-IdaE
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 02:27:32 AM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 5,213


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2013, 02:27:13 AM »

Thanks for all the resources everyone! I'll be watching all the links tonight before bed.

Here is the complete Paracleisis. The other link only had part I.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZg-Es-IdaE

Thanks mom! Smiley
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Velsigne
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 439



« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2013, 03:07:10 AM »

Not sure if this is the right board or if I should have taken it to the Protestant-Orthodox board, but I was just wondering, what exactly is the point of venerating the Theotokos so much?


Depends on what a person thinks is "so much".  Relative to everything else in the Orthodox Church, it's not that much.  On the other hand, there isn't any other saint we hymn everyday unless it is the particular saint for which the parish is named.



I find nothing wrong with it, but I also see nothing to justify how essential it is to us without resorting to really stretched, deductive logic in order to do so. In other words, I see no "smoking gun" argument to justify the amount of veneration we pay to her. In regards to my debates with Protestants who inquire about why I venerate the Theotokos, the conversation usually just ends at me debunking anti-veneration myths, showing that there is nothing wrong with venerating her, but not being able to prove or give a really strong reason as to why we have to or why it is so important.

In my opinion, it's better to not argue with 'Protestants' about the Theotokos, or really any other aspect of our faith.  The term 'Protestants' is set off by quotation marks because the word can be used to refer to a wide range of semi-Christian beliefs, and not to Protestants proper.  Those who really are Protestants will have a basic belief in the Trinity, and will likely understand the importance it.  A Trinitarian Christian may be able to understand the Orthodox veneration of the Theotokos more than a person without.  That's just my opinion though, and some are better at arguing / debating without alienating the other person.  It's my own tendency to be far too blunt, and may win in a debate in fact, but make an enemy of the Church, which is really a loss.  Perhaps you are better at convincing without alienating.  Seems like people who are converted to Orthodoxy from Protestantism can be more effective in convincing Protestants of the truth of our faith because they understand the mindset and terminology of Protestants.  I really have no clue what a lot of American Christians are really talking about, so it's more difficult to really address the underpinnings of their theological view.

With that said, if you go back and look at the heresies which have assailed the Church over time, the discussions that took place during the Nestorian 'Christotokos' controversy and eventual declaration of it as heresy show why she is Panaghia and not anything else.  It boils down to knowing who Jesus Christ, is, was, and ever shall be.  If she is successfully attacked, then it is as Asteriktos (hope I finally spelled that correctly) said, our faith is in vain. 

These sort of attacks on the Theotokos led to Roman Catholics developing the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, which as you probably know, doesn't refer to Jesus Christ, but rather to the Virgin Mary. 

Many people who are not familiar with Orthodox theology are basically arguing against Roman Catholic dogma, not against Jesus Christ Himself.  This is one of those underpinnings that may not be overtly stated when you are discussing theology.

Christ took flesh from her, and the importance of that is explained in detail in "On the Incarnation" by St. Athanasios.  Who she is important precisely because of her unique role in our Salvation.  This seems to be a big sticking point for a Protestant (a Lutheran) from what I've observed.  If they can get over that hurdle, then they are on their way to understanding Who Christ Is.

This is reflected the Vesperal hymn on the Feast of the Nativity of the Theotokos:

Although by the will of God barren women have brought forth illustrious children, yet Mary, with divine magnificence, hath outshone all that have been born;  for she, who was marvellously born of a childless mother, herself past nature bare in the flesh the God of all from a seedless womb.  She is the only gateway of the Only-begotten Son of God, Who, passing through this gate, kept it shut; and having ordered all things wisely, as He Himself saw fit, He has wrought salvation for all men.

Today the barren gates open, and the virgin gate of God comes forth.  Today grace begins to bear fruit, making manifest to the world the Mother of God, through women the things of the earth are joined with the heavens, for the salvation of our souls. 


Logged
Pericles
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. Archdiocese of Thyateira & Great Britain.
Posts: 178



WWW
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2013, 09:19:25 AM »

Orthodox veneration of the Theotokos is quite proportional to her special status. Roman Catholic veneration of the Blessed Virgin is called 'hyperdulia' and exceeds that of Orthodoxy with statues, rosaries and stations of the cross & etc etc
Logged

Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit.
Kerdy
Moderated
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2013, 09:39:25 AM »

How much of the Theotokos' life do we actually know, outside of the Bible? I thought there was an Orthodox book about her life but I can't recall it.

Nigla Qian Zish (sorry I don't know your name from memory) said this book gave him a great reverence for her and become much more of a person to him. Maybe that's what is needed here.



I think I would really enjoy this book.  I just looked at the reviews on Amazon.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: BZZT
Posts: 29,238



« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2013, 09:48:43 AM »

How much of the Theotokos' life do we actually know, outside of the Bible? I thought there was an Orthodox book about her life but I can't recall it.

Nigla Qian Zish (sorry I don't know your name from memory) said this book gave him a great reverence for her and become much more of a person to him. Maybe that's what is needed here.
...

I think I would really enjoy this book.  I just looked at the reviews on Amazon.

Fwiw, if you decide to get it, you can get it for slightly cheaper from the people who actually publish it. (They also have a table of contents that you can view)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 09:50:06 AM by Asteriktos » Logged
Kerdy
Moderated
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2013, 09:53:57 AM »

How much of the Theotokos' life do we actually know, outside of the Bible? I thought there was an Orthodox book about her life but I can't recall it.

Nigla Qian Zish (sorry I don't know your name from memory) said this book gave him a great reverence for her and become much more of a person to him. Maybe that's what is needed here.
...

I think I would really enjoy this book.  I just looked at the reviews on Amazon.

Fwiw, if you decide to get it, you can get it for slightly cheaper from the people who actually publish it. (They also have a table of contents that you can view)

Yep!  It's on my list of books to get!  Thanks!

EDIT:  Thanks again for the link!  I am looking at several books now.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 09:56:08 AM by Kerdy » Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 7,806


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2013, 07:06:50 PM »

How much of the Theotokos' life do we actually know, outside of the Bible? I thought there was an Orthodox book about her life but I can't recall it.

Nigla Qian Zish (sorry I don't know your name from memory) said this book gave him a great reverence for her and become much more of a person to him. Maybe that's what is needed here.
...

I think I would really enjoy this book.  I just looked at the reviews on Amazon.

Fwiw, if you decide to get it, you can get it for slightly cheaper from the people who actually publish it. (They also have a table of contents that you can view)

Yep!  It's on my list of books to get!  Thanks!

EDIT:  Thanks again for the link!  I am looking at several books now.

Please let me know where you ultimately buy your copy of this book.
I am likewise interested in reading it, but money is tight now, so I am looking for the best deals.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 07:07:38 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
akimel
Fr Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR (Western Rite)
Posts: 519



WWW
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2013, 08:53:22 PM »

Orthodox veneration of the Theotokos is quite proportional to her special status. Roman Catholic veneration of the Blessed Virgin is called 'hyperdulia' and exceeds that of Orthodoxy with statues, rosaries and stations of the cross & etc etc

But there is a distinction between the Orthodox veneration of the Theotokos and her veneration of the other saints, a distinction that is probably well represented by the word "hyperdulia."  This distinction was in fact employed by the Orthodox in the Confession of Dositheus when speaking of the veneration of the Blessed Virgin.

At the Divine Liturgy we sing to the Theotokos: 

Quote
It is truly right to bless thee, O Theotokos, ever blessed, and most pure, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim. Without corruption thou gavest birth to God the Word. True Theotokos, we magnify thee.

If this doesn't qualify as hyperdulia, I don't know what does.   What other saint do we acclaim as greater than the cherubim and seraphim?   What other saint do we invoke so frequently? 

I think it is fair to criticize the Roman Church for an unbalanced veneration of the Theotokos, at least in some quarters.  For us, our veneration of her takes place within the wholeness of the Liturgy.  She enjoys a special and unique role.  Not only is she the Mother of God, whose assent made possible the Incarnation and thus the salvation of humanity, containing within herself the Uncontainable; but she is also the "Queen at the right hand of God" (St John of Damascus). Her intercessory role is incomparably greater than the intercessions of the other saints (see, e.g., the Dormition homilies of St Andrew of Crete).   She shares in the priestly ministry of our Lord in a unique way.

An instructive book to read here is Mary: The Untrodden Portal of God by George Gabriel. 
Logged

mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2013, 05:30:01 AM »

Protestant's arguments were plit and moved to the proper section.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Pericles
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. Archdiocese of Thyateira & Great Britain.
Posts: 178



WWW
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2013, 08:56:52 AM »

But there is a distinction between the Orthodox veneration of the Theotokos and her veneration of the other saints...If this doesn't qualify as hyperdulia, I don't know what does.  
Regarding the Thotokos as having a special status isnt hyperdulia. It's the excessive practices and devotions that are termed hyperdulia. Even Protestants regard the Thotokos as having a special status among the saints but I would go around saying that Protestants practice 'hyperdulia'.
Logged

Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit.
akimel
Fr Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR (Western Rite)
Posts: 519



WWW
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2013, 10:24:29 AM »

Regarding the Thotokos as having a special status isnt hyperdulia. It's the excessive practices and devotions that are termed hyperdulia. Even Protestants regard the Thotokos as having a special status among the saints but I would go around saying that Protestants practice 'hyperdulia'.

If hyperdulia is defined as "excessive practices and devotions," then I'm sure that no one goes around saying that they practice hyperdulia.  All the word actually signifies is the difference between the veneration given to the Theotokos and the veneration given to all the other saints.  That's all.  And that is precisely what it means in the Orthodox Confession of Dositheus.  There's nothing controversial here about either the word or the distinction it signifies.   
Logged

Pericles
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. Archdiocese of Thyateira & Great Britain.
Posts: 178



WWW
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2013, 09:02:38 AM »

If hyperdulia is defined as "excessive practices and devotions," then I'm sure that no one goes around saying that they practice hyperdulia
Well they do but of course they don't consider it excessive.

I've yet to see Orthodox equivalents to the doctrine of the immaculate conception, Catholic Rosary or Stations of the cross & etc etc Perhaps you just don't consider these to be excessive devotion and therefore think of it as Orthodox.
Logged

Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit.
Kerdy
Moderated
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2013, 02:32:49 PM »

I wonder if any of these would be available in a book store.
Logged
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2013, 03:09:12 PM »

Her obedience to God's will annulled the ancient disobedience of Eve. She conceived, carried, bave birth to, and nurtured the Son of God Himself, Jesus Christ, God Incarnate. What she did dwarfs any other human achievement, before her, since her, and to the end of time, by an unimaginable order of magnitude.

Why wouldn't it be right and proper to love and venerate her as highly as we do?

Agreed, of course, but I think it should also be acknowledged (maybe it's already implied because this is the Faith Issues section) that the importance of her role in this process is specifically a Church teaching, rather than a statement that must be readily and objectively accepted.

People can argue that the actual act of giving birth and nurturing Christ isn't different from giving birth to and nurturing any child.  Therefore, I think the assumption that this differentiates and exalts the Theotokos needs to be within Church teachings.  Removed from that, it's not a particularly clear or persuasive argument.  Just my take, anyhow.
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Yeshua HaDerekh
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox pre 100AD
Posts: 318



« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2013, 02:05:25 PM »

The whole Christotokos issue is really a non-issue. The term "mother of GOD" is the real issue. Unless you FULLY understand what that means and more importantly, what it does NOT mean, there are problems. Theotokos is a Greek term, meaning God bearer. And rightfully so if you believe that Jesus was God. one could say ONLY God since there is no mention of His human nature...however, in Orthodoxy this is implied.  Christotokos is also a Greek term...however in this case instead of just God, it now uses the Greek term for Annointed or Messiah. Again, Messiah could be man, God or both while in Theotokos He can only be God (man is implied).  just something to think about...
Logged

If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2013, 02:08:00 PM »

Please tell me you're not one of those Yeshua-name-worshipping zealots.

Also, welcome to this forum.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 02:08:20 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2013, 02:16:04 PM »

I'm not sure the Christotokos v Theotokos issue was at issue in this thread, but welcome aboard!

Also, my condolences to your Church.
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2013, 02:20:08 PM »

The whole Christotokos issue is really a non-issue. The term "mother of GOD" is the real issue. Unless you FULLY understand what that means and more importantly, what it does NOT mean, there are problems. Theotokos is a Greek term, meaning God bearer. And rightfully so if you believe that Jesus was God. one could say ONLY God since there is no mention of His human nature...however, in Orthodoxy this is implied.  Christotokos is also a Greek term...however in this case instead of just God, it now uses the Greek term for Annointed or Messiah. Again, Messiah could be man, God or both while in Theotokos He can only be God (man is implied).  just something to think about...

@Yeshua HaDerekh: I have no idea what are you trying to say but as you seem not to be Orthodox Christian as defined by the forum rules, I ask you not to present your theological opinions  in sections when presenting theology opinions is limited to Orthodox Christians (ie. Convert Issues, Faith Issues, and Orthodox Family Forum). On the other hand you are free to present your theological opinions in Orthodox-Other Christian, Orthodox-Protestant Discussion or Religious Topics.

Violation of this request will result in official warning.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 02:20:25 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Yeshua HaDerekh
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox pre 100AD
Posts: 318



« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2013, 02:30:55 PM »

I am cradle Eastern Orthodox...I just adhere to the earlier version of it.  I also celebrate Passover as did John and Polycarp. I do not follow the Roman customs that have infiltrated Orthodoxy.  I have often found that cradle Orthodox have no problem discussing these issue but it is the converts that want to prove their "orthodoxy" that have issues...
Logged

If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,652


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2013, 02:36:42 PM »

I am cradle Eastern Orthodox...I just adhere to the earlier version of it.  I also celebrate Passover as did John and Polycarp. I do not follow the Roman customs that have infiltrated Orthodoxy.  I have often found that cradle Orthodox have no problem discussing these issue but it is the converts that want to prove their "orthodoxy" that have issues...

Uh, there is no such thing as 'the earlier version of it.' You can't get earlier than Christ and the Apostles. Any further than that, and you're in the years B.C., so you're Jewish?
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2013, 02:37:18 PM »

Quartodecimanism has been seen as a a heresy since the 2nd century and it was condemned by the First Ecumenical Council, but yeah, I guess those bishops were converts as well...
Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2013, 02:44:16 PM »

So much here; so little time.

I am cradle Eastern Orthodox...I just adhere to the earlier version of it.

Sure you do.

Quote
I also celebrate Passover as did John and Polycarp.

Ahh, right, because the Roman epistles of St. Ignatius of Antioch, admonishing Judaizing of the faith were written a few years after your arbitrary cut-off date for authenticity.  Awesome that God was able to keep a church going for almost 70 years!  You're one of those new-fangled, messianic protestants in denial.

Quote
I do not follow the Roman customs that have infiltrated Orthodoxy.

Yes, these Roman customs brought in by latinizers such as St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil the Great, and St. Gregory the Theologian.

Quote
I have often found that cradle Orthodox have no problem discussing these issue but it is the converts that want to prove their "orthodoxy" that have issues...

No clue what "issue" you are talking about.  I have problems with "Roman" customs and teachings too, but I don't make up some utopian 70 year period from 2,000 years ago.  Your arguments, cradle or not, aren't any different from the Great Apostasy protestants who claim innovation and perversion of the Church so early on.  

And, frankly, your comment about celebrating the authentic Jewish passover (given your username) the way you claim St. John and St. Polycarp did wreaks of heresy.  Sorry.  Wrong forum subsection to argue this dross.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 02:47:05 PM by Cognomen » Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Yeshua HaDerekh
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox pre 100AD
Posts: 318



« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2013, 02:46:36 PM »

So you are saying that Christ, all the Apostles as well as Polycarp and all the Eastern Churches from the last supper to 325 AD that celebrated the Passover on the 14th of nisan were heretics? Wow!
Logged

If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2013, 02:48:08 PM »

I am cradle Eastern Orthodox...I just adhere to the earlier version of it.  I also celebrate Passover as did John and Polycarp. I do not follow the Roman customs that have infiltrated Orthodoxy.  I have often found that cradle Orthodox have no problem discussing these issue but it is the converts that want to prove their "orthodoxy" that have issues...

Your answer has proved you are not Orthodox and are bonded by my previous request. If you have some more questions about forum moderation, use private message. Public discussing modertors' actions will result in official warning.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2013, 02:48:17 PM »

So you are saying that Christ, all the Apostles as well as Polycarp and all the Eastern Churches from the last supper to 325 AD that celebrated the Passover on the 14th of nisan were heretics? Wow!

Not at all, I'm simply saying that you are a heretic.

Good day, Sir.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 02:48:39 PM by Cognomen » Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2013, 02:51:19 PM »

Not at all, I'm simply saying that you are a heretic.

Could you refrain yourself from ad personams? TIA
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Yeshua HaDerekh
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox pre 100AD
Posts: 318



« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2013, 02:57:10 PM »

If I am a heretic then they are too...which actually makes YOU the heretic AND a hypocrite.

The most notable, extant example of Polycarp's tact, diplomacy, and personal piety can be seen in accounts of his visit to Rome during the reign of Anicetus, a fellow Syrian, as Bishop of Rome (ca. 154-167 C.E.). During his visit, Polycarp discovered that he and the Roman community differed with regards to their customs for observing the Paschal Feast, with Polycarp following the eastern practice of celebrating Passover on the 14th of Nisan, the day of the Jewish Passover, regardless of what day of the week it fell. Though the two could not agree on the proper form of observance, their disagreement was concluded in an open, mutually-supportive manner that could have provided an excellent example for the resolution of later doctrinal and praxical disputes:


And when the blessed Polycarp was sojourning in Rome in the time of Anicetus, although a slight controversy had arisen among them as to certain other points, they were at once well inclined towards each other [with regard to the matter in hand], not willing that any quarrel should arise between them upon this head. For neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp to forego the observance [in his own way], inasmuch as these things had been always [so] observed by John the disciple of our Lord, and by other apostles with whom he had been conversant; nor, on the other hand, could Polycarp succeed in persuading Anicetus to keep [the observance in his way], for he maintained that he was bound to adhere to the usage of the presbyters who preceded him. And in this state of affairs they held fellowship with each other; and Anicetus conceded to Polycarp in the Church the celebration of the Eucharist, by way of showing him respect; so that they parted in peace one from the other, maintaining peace with the whole Church, both those who did observe [this custom] and those who did not.[7]


7-day warning for ignoring previous request not to present theology in "Orthodox only" sections - MK

start a thread in Orthodox-Protestant or something like that
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 03:02:01 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.146 seconds with 72 queries.