Topic: Shortness and incompleteness of Western Prayers compared to Eastern?

[JamesRottnek]

To those who complain that Western prayers and the liturgy are too short, I give you the words of the Lord: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

[Shanghaiski]

And to those who say the Eastern prayers are too long, I give you the solution: Liturgical Chinese. One God, one faith, one baptism, one syllable per word.

[Christopher McAvoy]

I appreciate all perspectives given here. Some feel something is too little, some too much.

I appreciate the eastern and western traditions as they are and hope they can remain with minimal alteration.
Though it seems to be that tradition does allow for some growth and addition.
Taking away something from the liturgy is far worse than adding an additional edifying prayer (though only a bishop, abbot or abbess can formally officially add to the liturgy).
 
But without understanding what the tradition is none of that is relevant.

In this time of societal moral confusion, staying within our tradition is the best thing to do whether eastern or western.

Some people (including some clergy) do not know what the tradition is as clearly. They know the most important things, but the fine details are also useful. Encouraging more education and praying for virtuous leadership from our clergy is a good idea.
Though most of the learning of the tradition I think applies moreso to the latin rite, the byzantine rites have kept a strong living tradition that is more widely understood within the Orthodox Church.

[KShaft]

To those who complain that Western prayers and the liturgy are too short, I give you the words of the Lord: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

This was in reference to pagans who would chant the names of many different gods in hopes they would be heard by as many as possible.

The prayer life of peasants was typically Lots and Lots of Our Fathers, Glory Be's, and Hail Mary's. If they were lucky they might have a psalm or two memorized.

They couldn't read and they sure as hell couldn't afford a book until the 1500s and even then most still couldnt read.

The liturgy of St. James was/is five hours long. You know St. James, the Brother of Christ... Did our Lord misinform him? St. James got it wrong...?

The Words of the Lord taken out of context, again, by a protestant. Unfortunately this surprises me none but at the same time still irks me all the same.

[Punch]

To those who complain that Western prayers and the liturgy are too short, I give you the words of the Lord: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Kind of how I see it, too.

[Sleeper]

The liturgy of St. James was/is five hours long. You know St. James, the Brother of Christ... Did our Lord misinform him? St. James got it wrong...?

Do you honestly think this liturgy was created, in its entirety, by the brother of Our Lord, as a five-hour liturgy?

[Deacon Lance]

The liturgy of St. James was/is five hours long. You know St. James, the Brother of Christ... Did our Lord misinform him? St. James got it wrong...?

Not the one currently in use.  Not even Coptic Liturgies go that long normally.

[KShaft]

The liturgy of St. James was/is five hours long. You know St. James, the Brother of Christ... Did our Lord misinform him? St. James got it wrong...?

Do you honestly think this liturgy was created, in its entirety, by the brother of Our Lord, as a five-hour liturgy?

 Im not entirely sure but I tend to believe what the Fathers say about the Faith. I dont try to "figure out" what "really happened" because I think I know better. I do know the first Christians worshiped in the temple and then had a separate service in their homes for the Eucharist. I do know that even St. Johns Liturgy goes for nearly two hours in my Church and Ive heard recordings without homilies go for nearly 3 hours.  I think you should put down the Cardinal Newman and maybe pickup St. Isaac the Syrian or maybe St. Seraphim of Sarov since you dont like those "Byzantine" dudes. Especially Byzantine. This aint Eastern-Western rite protestantism man.

[Fotina02]

To those who complain that Western prayers and the liturgy are too short, I give you the words of the Lord: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

How does that fit with "pray without ceasing"?

[KShaft]

The liturgy of St. James was/is five hours long. You know St. James, the Brother of Christ... Did our Lord misinform him? St. James got it wrong...?

Not the one currently in use.  Not even Coptic Liturgies go that long normally.

Every ordained clergy member I have talked to about this has said this was the case. Both "Roman"(Frankish) Catholic and True Catholic. There was a loss in continuity, and Im not sure even the Church in Jerusalem does it the same way as it was once done...

[KShaft]

To those who complain that Western prayers and the liturgy are too short, I give you the words of the Lord: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

How does that fit with "pray without ceasing"?

Good observation.  He mentions heathen, not mistaken pharisees. Also "Knock and it will be opened to you" comes to mind, and the persistence of knocking which will eventually wake the master of the house.

[Punch]

How does that fit with "pray without ceasing"?

Praying is nothing more than communicating.  I seem to have no problem communicating with my family and coworkers without babbling the same thing over and over.  I speak to God many times during the day, thanking him for His blessings and praising Him for His creation and the great works that He has done.  Yes, I even ask for things.  It seems the Eastern Church places great value on how much you say.  I have always found that God answers me just fine based on WHAT I say.  I have to admit that my prayer life was much better before I started using Eastern prayer books (or any for that matter).  I also noticed that it improved when I started to go back to my Western devotions at home.  Taking the time to sing the psalms and think about what I am asking works better for me than seeing how many words I can eject at God.  Each to his own, I guess.

[Sleeper]

The liturgy of St. James was/is five hours long. You know St. James, the Brother of Christ... Did our Lord misinform him? St. James got it wrong...?

Do you honestly think this liturgy was created, in its entirety, by the brother of Our Lord, as a five-hour liturgy?

 Im not entirely sure but I tend to believe what the Fathers say about the Faith. I dont try to "figure out" what "really happened" because I think I know better. I do know the first Christians worshiped in the temple and then had a separate service in their homes for the Eucharist. I do know that even St. Johns Liturgy goes for nearly two hours in my Church and Ive heard recordings without homilies go for nearly 3 hours.  I think you should put down the Cardinal Newman and maybe pickup St. Isaac the Syrian or maybe St. Seraphim of Sarov since you dont like those "Byzantine" dudes. Especially Byzantine. This aint Eastern-Western rite protestantism man.

Liturgy runs about two hours in my Western Rite parish too. I'm not a big fan of Cardinal Newman and read St. Seraphim every Lent. I love me some Byzantine dudes. There, now you know more about me so you can stop assuming things. That's twice you've done that now. Try to actually follow and digest my posts if you're going to respond to them instead of bringing up things that neither I, nor anyone else in this thread, has brought up.

[JamesRottnek]

To those who complain that Western prayers and the liturgy are too short, I give you the words of the Lord: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

How does that fit with "pray without ceasing"?

Good observation.  He mentions heathen, not mistaken pharisees. Also "Knock and it will be opened to you" comes to mind, and the persistence of knocking which will eventually wake the master of the house.

You evidently do think we will be heard by our much speaking.  God does not work like that.  He is not the lottery.  The more tickets you buy for a given lottery the more likely you are to win.  The more words you use when you pray to God /=/ the more likely you are to wind up in heaven.

[KShaft]

To those who complain that Western prayers and the liturgy are too short, I give you the words of the Lord: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

How does that fit with "pray without ceasing"?

Good observation.  He mentions heathen, not mistaken pharisees. Also "Knock and it will be opened to you" comes to mind, and the persistence of knocking which will eventually wake the master of the house.

You evidently do think we will be heard by our much speaking.  God does not work like that.  He is not the lottery.  The more tickets you buy for a given lottery the more likely you are to win.  The more words you use when you pray to God /=/ the more likely you are to wind up in heaven.

 Please, tell me how the Lord does work. I would love to know...  The overwhelming consensus to "Pray without ceasing" to the Fathers of the Church has been to state the name of Jesus Christ in what has developed into the Jesus prayer.  Perhaps if your church had a history to consult, this information would be available to you. Cut off the roots and the tree will die.

[Nephi]

Please, tell me how the Lord does work. I would love to know...  The overwhelming consensus to "Pray without ceasing" to the Fathers of the Church has been to state the name of Jesus Christ in what has developed into the Jesus prayer.  Perhaps if your church had a history to consult, this information would be available to you. Cut off the roots and the tree will die.

Praying without ceasing is not "pray a bunch so God listens," which is effectively what you're saying.

[JamesRottnek]

Please, tell me how the Lord does work. I would love to know...  The overwhelming consensus to "Pray without ceasing" to the Fathers of the Church has been to state the name of Jesus Christ in what has developed into the Jesus prayer.  Perhaps if your church had a history to consult, this information would be available to you. Cut off the roots and the tree will die.

Praying without ceasing is not "pray a bunch so God listens," which is effectively what you're saying.

^This.

And I'd point out another inherent problem in your question: One cannot say how the Lord "works" because Christ (indeed all persons of the Trinity) are not machines.  Nor are they pagan deities able to be forced into certain actions.  God does not "work."  God is (or isn't, depending on what theologian you talk to).  We cannot compel God, and that should never be the purpose of prayer.

One cannot pray if the intent is to force God to do something.

[KShaft]

Deleted for charity's sake

[Fotina02]

How does that fit with "pray without ceasing"?

Praying is nothing more than communicating.  I seem to have no problem communicating with my family and coworkers without babbling the same thing over and over.  I speak to God many times during the day, thanking him for His blessings and praising Him for His creation and the great works that He has done.  Yes, I even ask for things.  It seems the Eastern Church places great value on how much you say.  I have always found that God answers me just fine based on WHAT I say.  I have to admit that my prayer life was much better before I started using Eastern prayer books (or any for that matter).  I also noticed that it improved when I started to go back to my Western devotions at home.  Taking the time to sing the psalms and think about what I am asking works better for me than seeing how many words I can eject at God.  Each to his own, I guess.

Where or when does EO ever teach that the value of prayer is in "how much you say"? Where does EO teach not to think about what you ask in prayer? False, not true, and way off.

[Christopher McAvoy]

Being an episcopalian probably has some effect on Mr. Rottneck's views.

[Sleeper]

Being an episcopalian probably has some effect on Mr. Rottneck's views.

So does being an American, or a Democrat, or a Midwesterner, or a Latino, or any other thing someone is. That doesn't disqualify their opinion nor does it render what they say irrelevant or incorrect. Feel free to challenge his arguments.

[SolEX01]

To those who complain that Western prayers and the liturgy are too short, I give you the words of the Lord: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

How does that fit with "pray without ceasing"?

Good observation.  He mentions heathen, not mistaken pharisees. Also "Knock and it will be opened to you" comes to mind, and the persistence of knocking which will eventually wake the master of the house.

You evidently do think we will be heard by our much speaking.  God does not work like that.  He is not the lottery.  The more tickets you buy for a given lottery the more likely you are to win.  The more words you use when you pray to God /=/ the more likely you are to wind up in heaven.

One ticket can win the lottery.  As someone once told me, "less is more."

[KShaft]

How does that fit with "pray without ceasing"?

Praying is nothing more than communicating.  I seem to have no problem communicating with my family and coworkers without babbling the same thing over and over.  I speak to God many times during the day, thanking him for His blessings and praising Him for His creation and the great works that He has done.  Yes, I even ask for things.  It seems the Eastern Church places great value on how much you say.  I have always found that God answers me just fine based on WHAT I say.  I have to admit that my prayer life was much better before I started using Eastern prayer books (or any for that matter).  I also noticed that it improved when I started to go back to my Western devotions at home.  Taking the time to sing the psalms and think about what I am asking works better for me than seeing how many words I can eject at God.  Each to his own, I guess.

Where or when does EO ever teach that the value of prayer is in "how much you say"? Where does EO teach not to think about what you ask in prayer? False, not true, and way off.

These guys are just WR Enthusists... see here: http://westernritecritic.wordpress.com/

[KShaft]

Being an episcopalian probably has some effect on Mr. Rottneck's views.

So does being an American, or a Democrat, or a Midwesterner, or a Latino, or any other thing someone is. That doesn't disqualify their opinion nor does it render what they say irrelevant or incorrect. Feel free to challenge his arguments.

What arguments? Towards himself for saying "thats how God works" and then me calling him on it and using my quote of him as a way to sharpshoot me for using the word "work" which was quoting HIM? Amazing!  Your style is to be commended sir! Absolutely original, yet totally moronic.  Your substance is vacuum like. Well perhaps more like the air of a porta john in Kuwait. Yeah Ive been there, Iraq too. Its hotter in Kuwait... much less deadly however...
For using a protestant argument against the Rosary which was a practice established pre Schism, not to mention the Jesus prayer done in prototypical form by St. Ignatius? Once again get a history man...  and while youre at it a few less lesbian Bishops...

Reactionary, scholastic, un patristic, arrogant, puffed up, lacking in contriteness; trying to convert Orthodoxy to Anglicanism rather than vice-versa, etc...etc...

I think this might be what Christopher M. was getting at.  You people bring more baggage than a Drewish princess... Theres nothing Humble or contrite about you. You have the mind of the Jews who turned over Christ. That of entitlement and superiority. Try submitting to the Church in totality instead of trying to make it submit to your whims. Thats the freemason influence. Loose it or go back to your pseudo church.

Obscenity removed from post  -PtA

You are being warned for using obscenities on a non-polemic board, and for attacking a poster instead of their post. Please learn to calm down and think about what you post before you send it.
-Arimethea
Liturgy Section Mod

[JamesRottnek]

How does that fit with "pray without ceasing"?

Praying is nothing more than communicating.  I seem to have no problem communicating with my family and coworkers without babbling the same thing over and over.  I speak to God many times during the day, thanking him for His blessings and praising Him for His creation and the great works that He has done.  Yes, I even ask for things.  It seems the Eastern Church places great value on how much you say.  I have always found that God answers me just fine based on WHAT I say.  I have to admit that my prayer life was much better before I started using Eastern prayer books (or any for that matter).  I also noticed that it improved when I started to go back to my Western devotions at home.  Taking the time to sing the psalms and think about what I am asking works better for me than seeing how many words I can eject at God.  Each to his own, I guess.

Where or when does EO ever teach that the value of prayer is in "how much you say"? Where does EO teach not to think about what you ask in prayer? False, not true, and way off.

These guys are just WR Enthusists... see here: http://westernritecritic.wordpress.com/

If "these guys" includes me, you'd be wrong.  While I enjoy the Book of Common Prayer, I actually love the Byzantine liturgy far, far more.

But it is absurdist to believe that long, drawn out prayer is important, let alone essential.

[JamesRottnek]

Being an episcopalian probably has some effect on Mr. Rottneck's views.

So does being an American, or a Democrat, or a Midwesterner, or a Latino, or any other thing someone is. That doesn't disqualify their opinion nor does it render what they say irrelevant or incorrect. Feel free to challenge his arguments.

^This.  As with all people, I am shaped by all that I am now and all that I have been.

[KShaft]

How does that fit with "pray without ceasing"?

Praying is nothing more than communicating.  I seem to have no problem communicating with my family and coworkers without babbling the same thing over and over.  I speak to God many times during the day, thanking him for His blessings and praising Him for His creation and the great works that He has done.  Yes, I even ask for things.  It seems the Eastern Church places great value on how much you say.  I have always found that God answers me just fine based on WHAT I say.  I have to admit that my prayer life was much better before I started using Eastern prayer books (or any for that matter).  I also noticed that it improved when I started to go back to my Western devotions at home.  Taking the time to sing the psalms and think about what I am asking works better for me than seeing how many words I can eject at God.  Each to his own, I guess.

Where or when does EO ever teach that the value of prayer is in "how much you say"? Where does EO teach not to think about what you ask in prayer? False, not true, and way off.

These guys are just WR Enthusists... see here: http://westernritecritic.wordpress.com/

If "these guys" includes me, you'd be wrong.  While I enjoy the Book of Common Prayer, I actually love the Byzantine liturgy far, far more.

But it is absurdist to believe that long, drawn out prayer is important, let alone essential.

 The only thing that is absurd is to say the liturgical prayers of the One true Church, that is the Eastern Orthodox Church are unimportant or non essential which is what you are trying to say.

[PeterTheAleut]

Being an episcopalian probably has some effect on Mr. Rottneck's views.

So does being an American, or a Democrat, or a Midwesterner, or a Latino, or any other thing someone is. That doesn't disqualify their opinion nor does it render what they say irrelevant or incorrect. Feel free to challenge his arguments.

What arguments? Towards himself for saying "thats how God works" and then me calling him on it and using my quote of him as a way to sharpshoot me for using the word "work" which was quoting HIM? Amazing!  Your style is to be commended sir! Absolutely original, yet totally moronic.  Your substance is vacuum like. Well perhaps more like the air of a porta john in Kuwait. Yeah Ive been there, Iraq too. Its hotter in Kuwait... much less deadly however...
For using a protestant argument against the Rosary which was a practice established pre Schism, not to mention the Jesus prayer done in prototypical form by St. Ignatius? Once again get a history man...  and while youre at it a few less lesbian Bishops...

Reactionary, scholastic, un patristic, arrogant, puffed up, lacking in contriteness; trying to convert Orthodoxy to Anglicanism rather than vice-versa, etc...etc...

I think this might be what Christopher M. was getting at.  You people bring more baggage than a Drewish princess... Theres nothing Humble or contrite about you. You have the mind of the Jews who turned over Christ. That of entitlement and superiority. Try submitting to the Church in totality instead of trying to make it submit to your whims. Thats the freemason influence. Loose it or go back to your pseudo church.


Obscenity removed from post  -PtA

I'm going to let this section's moderator, arimethea, make the call as to what severity of discipline you deserve for your obscene hot-headedness in this and your last few posts, KShaft. In the meantime, this thread is now locked. If you try to continue this discussion somewhere else to get around the lock on this thread, I will put you on post moderation myself for multiplying offenses.

-PtA

[arimethea]

This thread will remain locked since the original poster was the one who caused the thread to spiral into a place it should not have gone. Please play nice in this section; this section is for discussion of Western Rite Liturgical practices and not for debate of the legitimacy of the Western Rite, please keep this in mind when posting.

-Arimethea
Liturgy Section Moderator