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Author Topic: Shortness and incompleteness of Western Prayers compared to Eastern?  (Read 3851 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 11, 2013, 09:38:34 PM »

Just as the title says, why are not just the prayers shorter typically in the west, but also the Order of prayers. The Divine office is shorter, the liturgy is Shorter.  Not to mention where are all the supplementary Canons and Akathists and such that are found in the East. How about preparatory prayers for Holy Communion? They're almost non-existent...

Seeing the fullness of the Eastern Churches, it seems like there is an incompleteness about the west. Was this always the case or perhaps stuff was forcibly phased out or things dying out?
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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2013, 09:45:03 PM »

I don't know about recent times, but shortening has a long tradition in the Church. We went from 4 1/2 hours, to 3 hours, to an 1 1/2, not just in modern times but there was shortening of stuff even when the original liturgies were being written.
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« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2013, 12:03:45 AM »

In fact if you read Dix's The Shape of the Liturgy you will see that the western liturgy perhaps started out somewhat shorter and eliminated anything which could be thought redundant, while the eastern liturgy has tended to become more elaborated. The multiplication of litanies is in particular an eastern feature.
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« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2013, 01:52:03 AM »

I don't know about recent times, but shortening has a long tradition in the Church. We went from 4 1/2 hours, to 3 hours, to an 1 1/2, not just in modern times but there was shortening of stuff even when the original liturgies were being written.

Well when you go to monasteries and they combine the service with Matins it can end up being 5 hours.  A recording of a Divine Liturgy I have is 2 hours and 40 minutes without the homily so that could be around three hours. It was St. John's too. Its funny because thats a Greek one and it is my favorite even though I generally prefer the Russian stuff by far (meaning music style not language).
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« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2013, 10:51:59 AM »

More does not mean better. More does not mean fuller. More does not mean more beautiful. More means more, and usually more redundant.

As someone pointed out, the Eastern liturgy has itself gone through simplifications. We see this mentioned, “When the great Basil...saw the carelessness and degeneracy of men who feared the length of the Liturgy...he shortened its form, so as to remove the weariness of the clergy and assistants" (De traditione divinae Missae, P.G., XLV, 849). That continued under St. John Chrysostom. "Not long afterwards our Father, John Chrysostom, zealous for the salvation of his flock as a shepherd should be, considering the carelessness of human nature, thoroughly uprooted every diabolical objection. He therefore left out a great part and shortened all forms lest anyone...stay away from this Apostolic and Divine Institution" (ibid).

It has always been part of the character of Latins to be terse, to choose words carefully, to be direct and precise, for thoughts to follow a linear pattern. This is the natural state of Western thinking patterns and it's only natural that our worship be this way too. Our measuring stick is the Apostolic tradition bequeathed to us and handed down to us by our Western Fathers and saints, not the Byzantine tradition.
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« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2013, 11:11:25 AM »

More does not mean better. More does not mean fuller. More does not mean more beautiful. More means more, and usually more redundant.

As someone pointed out, the Eastern liturgy has itself gone through simplifications. We see this mentioned, “When the great Basil...saw the carelessness and degeneracy of men who feared the length of the Liturgy...he shortened its form, so as to remove the weariness of the clergy and assistants" (De traditione divinae Missae, P.G., XLV, 849). That continued under St. John Chrysostom. "Not long afterwards our Father, John Chrysostom, zealous for the salvation of his flock as a shepherd should be, considering the carelessness of human nature, thoroughly uprooted every diabolical objection. He therefore left out a great part and shortened all forms lest anyone...stay away from this Apostolic and Divine Institution" (ibid).

It has always been part of the character of Latins to be terse, to choose words carefully, to be direct and precise, for thoughts to follow a linear pattern. This is the natural state of Western thinking patterns and it's only natural that our worship be this way too. Our measuring stick is the Apostolic tradition bequeathed to us and handed down to us by our Western Fathers and saints, not the Byzantine tradition.

Very well said.

I've been using the monastic diurnal so far this year for morning and evening prayer (and compline).  I certainly don't feel like my prayer is "incomplete" at all.  I certainly miss certain beloved Eastern prayers, but I just add those in at the end of the Office if I feel like I want to say them.  Most importantly, I'm praying the Psalter in an organized and defined manner, something my brain appreciates very much. 

As for pre-Communion prayers, they certainly exist in the old RC prayer books, especially the pre-communion prayer of St. Ambrose of Milan, among others.  If I were home I'd check my prayerbook/missal library for other ancient Western prayers, but, alas, I'm not.
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« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2013, 11:37:40 AM »

The official Orthodox Missal of the AWRV has pages of pre-communion prayers.
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« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2013, 12:40:18 PM »

More does not mean better. More does not mean fuller. More does not mean more beautiful. More means more, and usually more redundant.

As someone pointed out, the Eastern liturgy has itself gone through simplifications. We see this mentioned, “When the great Basil...saw the carelessness and degeneracy of men who feared the length of the Liturgy...he shortened its form, so as to remove the weariness of the clergy and assistants" (De traditione divinae Missae, P.G., XLV, 849). That continued under St. John Chrysostom. "Not long afterwards our Father, John Chrysostom, zealous for the salvation of his flock as a shepherd should be, considering the carelessness of human nature, thoroughly uprooted every diabolical objection. He therefore left out a great part and shortened all forms lest anyone...stay away from this Apostolic and Divine Institution" (ibid).

It has always been part of the character of Latins to be terse, to choose words carefully, to be direct and precise, for thoughts to follow a linear pattern. This is the natural state of Western thinking patterns and it's only natural that our worship be this way too. Our measuring stick is the Apostolic tradition bequeathed to us and handed down to us by our Western Fathers and saints, not the Byzantine tradition.

Very well said.

I've been using the monastic diurnal so far this year for morning and evening prayer (and compline).  I certainly don't feel like my prayer is "incomplete" at all.  I certainly miss certain beloved Eastern prayers, but I just add those in at the end of the Office if I feel like I want to say them.  Most importantly, I'm praying the Psalter in an organized and defined manner, something my brain appreciates very much.  

As for pre-Communion prayers, they certainly exist in the old RC prayer books, especially the pre-communion prayer of St. Ambrose of Milan, among others.  If I were home I'd check my prayerbook/missal library for other ancient Western prayers, but, alas, I'm not.

Im sorry I dont feel the same way as you. I cant read from my MD any more. Not only are the prayers more like reading a dissertation rather than poetic supplication, its over before I even get started. And how the Kathisma is laid out is unorganized???

Well I see you found one pre-communion prayer. Is one supposed to be impressed with that? There is a whole hour long rule for the Eastern as Im sure you know. The canon, psalms, and the prayers.  If one is too lazy to do it, then perhaps they should not partake of the Eucharist in the first place.
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« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2013, 01:02:32 PM »

More does not mean better. More does not mean fuller. More does not mean more beautiful. More means more, and usually more redundant.

As someone pointed out, the Eastern liturgy has itself gone through simplifications. We see this mentioned, “When the great Basil...saw the carelessness and degeneracy of men who feared the length of the Liturgy...he shortened its form, so as to remove the weariness of the clergy and assistants" (De traditione divinae Missae, P.G., XLV, 849). That continued under St. John Chrysostom. "Not long afterwards our Father, John Chrysostom, zealous for the salvation of his flock as a shepherd should be, considering the carelessness of human nature, thoroughly uprooted every diabolical objection. He therefore left out a great part and shortened all forms lest anyone...stay away from this Apostolic and Divine Institution" (ibid).

It has always been part of the character of Latins to be terse, to choose words carefully, to be direct and precise, for thoughts to follow a linear pattern. This is the natural state of Western thinking patterns and it's only natural that our worship be this way too. Our measuring stick is the Apostolic tradition bequeathed to us and handed down to us by our Western Fathers and saints, not the Byzantine tradition.

Very well said.

I've been using the monastic diurnal so far this year for morning and evening prayer (and compline).  I certainly don't feel like my prayer is "incomplete" at all.  I certainly miss certain beloved Eastern prayers, but I just add those in at the end of the Office if I feel like I want to say them.  Most importantly, I'm praying the Psalter in an organized and defined manner, something my brain appreciates very much.  

As for pre-Communion prayers, they certainly exist in the old RC prayer books, especially the pre-communion prayer of St. Ambrose of Milan, among others.  If I were home I'd check my prayerbook/missal library for other ancient Western prayers, but, alas, I'm not.

Im sorry I dont feel the same way as you. I cant read from my MD any more. Not only are the prayers more like reading a dissertation rather than poetic supplication, its over before I even get started. And how the Kathisma is laid out is unorganized???

It's organized on a thematic level.  It was quite a revelation once I realized that.  I also learned to slow down and say the prayers out loud.  It has worked wonders for me.  But what works for me may not work for you.

Quote
Well I see you found one pre-communion prayer. Is one supposed to be impressed with that? There is a whole hour long rule for the Eastern as Im sure you know. The canon, psalms, and the prayers.  If one is too lazy to do it, then perhaps they should not partake of the Eucharist in the first place.

No, I said I remembered one specific one from one specific saint off the top of my head.  I know there are pages of pre-communion prayers, I just don't know their pedigree nor their content at the moment.

As for the length of the prayers, I'm glad to see that you've managed to surpass us all with your spiritual endurance to the point where you can scoff at those who, in your not-so-humble opinion, are too lazy.  Please pray for me.
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« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2013, 01:22:23 PM »

Everything you're describing is a matter of taste, but you speak as if these are objective truths that any thoughtful person would agree with. They are not. It may surprise you that the verbose, flowery, circular language common to much of the Eastern tradition is tiresome, clunky, redundant, and disjointed to the Western mind. Not to all, of course, but to many. Compared to the linear, austere, haunting, qualities of the Western tradition, there's just no comparison for us.

I'm honestly not trying to be rude here, but saying something is better because it is longer, has more parts, takes more time, etc, seems a bit juvenile. Different traditions have different qualities and characteristics because people and cultures are different. We are not all beholden to fit the same mold, especially the Byzantine one.
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« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2013, 01:53:38 PM »

Very well put.  You explain my thoughts on the matter perfectly and in a manner much better than I could have.  Thank you.

More does not mean better. More does not mean fuller. More does not mean more beautiful. More means more, and usually more redundant.

As someone pointed out, the Eastern liturgy has itself gone through simplifications. We see this mentioned, “When the great Basil...saw the carelessness and degeneracy of men who feared the length of the Liturgy...he shortened its form, so as to remove the weariness of the clergy and assistants" (De traditione divinae Missae, P.G., XLV, 849). That continued under St. John Chrysostom. "Not long afterwards our Father, John Chrysostom, zealous for the salvation of his flock as a shepherd should be, considering the carelessness of human nature, thoroughly uprooted every diabolical objection. He therefore left out a great part and shortened all forms lest anyone...stay away from this Apostolic and Divine Institution" (ibid).

It has always been part of the character of Latins to be terse, to choose words carefully, to be direct and precise, for thoughts to follow a linear pattern. This is the natural state of Western thinking patterns and it's only natural that our worship be this way too. Our measuring stick is the Apostolic tradition bequeathed to us and handed down to us by our Western Fathers and saints, not the Byzantine tradition.
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« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2013, 02:58:58 PM »

Im sorry I dont feel the same way as you. I cant read from my MD any more. Not only are the prayers more like reading a dissertation rather than poetic supplication, its over before I even get started. And how the Kathisma is laid out is unorganized???

Well I see you found one pre-communion prayer. Is one supposed to be impressed with that? There is a whole hour long rule for the Eastern as Im sure you know. The canon, psalms, and the prayers.  If one is too lazy to do it, then perhaps they should not partake of the Eucharist in the first place.


I'm an Eastern Christian.  I am at home with chant, long liturgies, poetry, fasting, etc.  But if the West has a legitimate-but-different-from-us way of doing things, who are we to argue?  If a particular arrangement of the psalms worked for St Benedict and other Western saints, I don't think it can harm us.  Personally, I find some aspects of Western liturgy and spirituality really agree with me; I don't force it on anyone else, but I find them helpful.   

"Pre-Communion" prayer rules vary across rites and even within them.  One ought not to generalize too much about the form, as if all Christians from the beginning did it the way it appears in Russian prayer books.  Or are we to think the apostles read three canons, an akathist, the pre-communion prayers, fasted, and went to confession at an all-night vigil before actually receiving the Eucharist from Christ, who began the meal with "Blessed is the Kingdom, etc."?  The gospel accounts seem to agree that he didn't serve hierarchically, or even with a deacon!  How anachronistic and ridiculous if we go down such a road...

By all means, pray, and by all means follow the discipline imposed by one's Church, one's rite, one's spiritual father.  But don't generalize these things as if the West is always wrong and the East is always right.  Even in the East there are differences, and I dare say that sometimes the Byzantines just seem plain lazy compared to the rest of us.  It need not be wrong, just different, and anyway it's the goal that's important, not always the words.  Or would you disagree with the desert fathers? 

Abba Macarius was asked, 'How should one pray?' The old man said 'There is no need at all to make long discourses; it is enough to stretch out one's hands and say, "Lord, as you will, and as you know, have mercy." And if the conflict
grows fiercer say, "Lord, help!" He knows very well what we need and he shews us his mercy.'


It doesn't get much shorter and unpoetic as "Lord, help!"  You won't find it in any collection of akathists on the market.  But evidently it got St Makarios where he needed to go.

Liturgies develop, and they develop in cultures, in communities, among peoples.  They form us, to be sure, but they don't just fall out of heaven in book form--we also have some "say" in how they are shaped.  What works for us may not work so well in the West, and vice versa, but if what we do can sanctify us, and what they do can sanctify them, what does it matter to you?  Work on your own spiritual life with the resources the Church gives you.  Don't think that what doesn't work for you can't possibly work for anyone else.  They have a God, too. 

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« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2013, 03:15:30 PM »

Ah, a fair wind has blown!

Welcome back, Father Deacon!
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« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2013, 03:18:51 PM »

Since people are talking about Western pre-communion prayers, I just wanted to note that I still use a pre-communion prayer from the Roman Catholic Mass that I learned as a child every time I approach the chalice. I do most of the Russian routine, but all that length and depth aside, as I approach the chalice I still say under my breath: "Oh Lord, I am not worthy to receive You, but only say the word and I shall be healed."

Like others said, short and sweet. That's something the Latins are much better at.
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« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2013, 03:39:00 PM »

Im sorry I dont feel the same way as you. I cant read from my MD any more. Not only are the prayers more like reading a dissertation rather than poetic supplication, its over before I even get started. And how the Kathisma is laid out is unorganized???

Well I see you found one pre-communion prayer. Is one supposed to be impressed with that? There is a whole hour long rule for the Eastern as Im sure you know. The canon, psalms, and the prayers.  If one is too lazy to do it, then perhaps they should not partake of the Eucharist in the first place.


I'm an Eastern Christian.  I am at home with chant, long liturgies, poetry, fasting, etc.  But if the West has a legitimate-but-different-from-us way of doing things, who are we to argue?  If a particular arrangement of the psalms worked for St Benedict and other Western saints, I don't think it can harm us.  Personally, I find some aspects of Western liturgy and spirituality really agree with me; I don't force it on anyone else, but I find them helpful.   

"Pre-Communion" prayer rules vary across rites and even within them.  One ought not to generalize too much about the form, as if all Christians from the beginning did it the way it appears in Russian prayer books.  Or are we to think the apostles read three canons, an akathist, the pre-communion prayers, fasted, and went to confession at an all-night vigil before actually receiving the Eucharist from Christ, who began the meal with "Blessed is the Kingdom, etc."?  The gospel accounts seem to agree that he didn't serve hierarchically, or even with a deacon!  How anachronistic and ridiculous if we go down such a road...

By all means, pray, and by all means follow the discipline imposed by one's Church, one's rite, one's spiritual father.  But don't generalize these things as if the West is always wrong and the East is always right.  Even in the East there are differences, and I dare say that sometimes the Byzantines just seem plain lazy compared to the rest of us.  It need not be wrong, just different, and anyway it's the goal that's important, not always the words.  Or would you disagree with the desert fathers? 

Abba Macarius was asked, 'How should one pray?' The old man said 'There is no need at all to make long discourses; it is enough to stretch out one's hands and say, "Lord, as you will, and as you know, have mercy." And if the conflict
grows fiercer say, "Lord, help!" He knows very well what we need and he shews us his mercy.'


It doesn't get much shorter and unpoetic as "Lord, help!"  You won't find it in any collection of akathists on the market.  But evidently it got St Makarios where he needed to go.

Liturgies develop, and they develop in cultures, in communities, among peoples.  They form us, to be sure, but they don't just fall out of heaven in book form--we also have some "say" in how they are shaped.  What works for us may not work so well in the West, and vice versa, but if what we do can sanctify us, and what they do can sanctify them, what does it matter to you?  Work on your own spiritual life with the resources the Church gives you.  Don't think that what doesn't work for you can't possibly work for anyone else.  They have a God, too. 

Beautiful.
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« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2013, 05:22:00 PM »

More does not mean better. More does not mean fuller. More does not mean more beautiful. More means more, and usually more redundant.

As someone pointed out, the Eastern liturgy has itself gone through simplifications. We see this mentioned, “When the great Basil...saw the carelessness and degeneracy of men who feared the length of the Liturgy...he shortened its form, so as to remove the weariness of the clergy and assistants" (De traditione divinae Missae, P.G., XLV, 849). That continued under St. John Chrysostom. "Not long afterwards our Father, John Chrysostom, zealous for the salvation of his flock as a shepherd should be, considering the carelessness of human nature, thoroughly uprooted every diabolical objection. He therefore left out a great part and shortened all forms lest anyone...stay away from this Apostolic and Divine Institution" (ibid).

It has always been part of the character of Latins to be terse, to choose words carefully, to be direct and precise, for thoughts to follow a linear pattern. This is the natural state of Western thinking patterns and it's only natural that our worship be this way too. Our measuring stick is the Apostolic tradition bequeathed to us and handed down to us by our Western Fathers and saints, not the Byzantine tradition.

Very well said.

I've been using the monastic diurnal so far this year for morning and evening prayer (and compline).  I certainly don't feel like my prayer is "incomplete" at all.  I certainly miss certain beloved Eastern prayers, but I just add those in at the end of the Office if I feel like I want to say them.  Most importantly, I'm praying the Psalter in an organized and defined manner, something my brain appreciates very much.  

As for pre-Communion prayers, they certainly exist in the old RC prayer books, especially the pre-communion prayer of St. Ambrose of Milan, among others.  If I were home I'd check my prayerbook/missal library for other ancient Western prayers, but, alas, I'm not.

Im sorry I dont feel the same way as you. I cant read from my MD any more. Not only are the prayers more like reading a dissertation rather than poetic supplication, its over before I even get started. And how the Kathisma is laid out is unorganized???

It's organized on a thematic level.  It was quite a revelation once I realized that.  I also learned to slow down and say the prayers out loud.  It has worked wonders for me.  But what works for me may not work for you.

Quote
Well I see you found one pre-communion prayer. Is one supposed to be impressed with that? There is a whole hour long rule for the Eastern as Im sure you know. The canon, psalms, and the prayers.  If one is too lazy to do it, then perhaps they should not partake of the Eucharist in the first place.

No, I said I remembered one specific one from one specific saint off the top of my head.  I know there are pages of pre-communion prayers, I just don't know their pedigree nor their content at the moment.

As for the length of the prayers, I'm glad to see that you've managed to surpass us all with your spiritual endurance to the point where you can scoff at those who, in your not-so-humble opinion, are too lazy.  Please pray for me.

I am sorry I just mean a nice coherent rule for the reception of the Divine. One who is partaking in the Divine would be wise to have a pre communion rule of some sort to be sure to be a help as to "not eat and drink condemnation unto ones self" and there is just a whole bunch in the East whereas in the West you kind of have to go looking and Im not so sure if that was always the case but it may have well been so. The unearthing of pre-schism prayers shows a tendancy to be more like eastern prayers in ornateness and length.
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« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2013, 05:52:32 PM »

Just as the title says, why are not just the prayers shorter typically in the west, but also the Order of prayers. The Divine office is shorter, the liturgy is Shorter.  Not to mention where are all the supplementary Canons and Akathists and such that are found in the East. How about preparatory prayers for Holy Communion? They're almost non-existent...

Seeing the fullness of the Eastern Churches, it seems like there is an incompleteness about the west. Was this always the case or perhaps stuff was forcibly phased out or things dying out?

Scholasticism.  The West thinks this way, say it clearly, directly, plainly, and it should only be said once.  One should be able to understand the prayer from there.
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« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2013, 06:39:17 PM »

Scholasticism.  The West thinks this way, say it clearly, directly, plainly, and it should only be said once.  One should be able to understand the prayer from there.

Not Scholaticism.  The Roman Rite was sober, staid, and direct long before Scholasticism came along.  Almost everything that isn't is an import from the Gallican Rite.
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« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2013, 06:44:10 PM »

I am sorry I just mean a nice coherent rule for the reception of the Divine. One who is partaking in the Divine would be wise to have a pre communion rule of some sort to be sure to be a help as to "not eat and drink condemnation unto ones self" and there is just a whole bunch in the East whereas in the West you kind of have to go looking and Im not so sure if that was always the case but it may have well been so. The unearthing of pre-schism prayers shows a tendancy to be more like eastern prayers in ornateness and length.

Indeed, but I (and I believe others) would judge praying the Divine Office (of any tradition) everyday as sufficient preparation and superior preparation because of its antiquity.  The Communion rule and all the private prayer rule is a rather recent invention only a couple hundrd years old.
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« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2013, 07:17:21 PM »

Everything you're describing is a matter of taste, but you speak as if these are objective truths that any thoughtful person would agree with. They are not. It may surprise you that the verbose, flowery, circular language common to much of the Eastern tradition is tiresome, clunky, redundant, and disjointed to the Western mind. Not to all, of course, but to many. Compared to the linear, austere, haunting, qualities of the Western tradition, there's just no comparison for us.

I'm honestly not trying to be rude here, but saying something is better because it is longer, has more parts, takes more time, etc, seems a bit juvenile. Different traditions have different qualities and characteristics because people and cultures are different. We are not all beholden to fit the same mold, especially the Byzantine one.

Well if you were to tell me imagist poetry is along the same lines as Shakespeare, Dante, or Keats Id call you lunatic. But I guess thats subjective as well... Hey imagist is straight to the point with minimal verbage.... No its not an exact parallel by any means but I think if the prophet David would weigh in, hed probably prefer the eastern prayers.  The imagist would definitely prefer the western prayers....
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« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2013, 07:21:02 PM »

Just as the title says, why are not just the prayers shorter typically in the west, but also the Order of prayers. The Divine office is shorter, the liturgy is Shorter.  Not to mention where are all the supplementary Canons and Akathists and such that are found in the East. How about preparatory prayers for Holy Communion? They're almost non-existent...

Seeing the fullness of the Eastern Churches, it seems like there is an incompleteness about the west. Was this always the case or perhaps stuff was forcibly phased out or things dying out?

Scholasticism.  The West thinks this way, say it clearly, directly, plainly, and it should only be said once.  One should be able to understand the prayer from there.

Scholasticism is a product of Aquanis or at least formed during that time definitively , but precursors were there to be sure. This is what happens when lawyers are your theologians.
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« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2013, 08:40:40 PM »

I have in front of me a copy of the very popular (in its day, at least) "Manual of Prayers," copyright 1888 with an imprimatur of Cardinal Gibbons. 

It has some 40 pages of communion devotions, starting with a number of psalms, prayers by St. Thomas Aquinas and Ambrose of Milan, as well an examination of conscience, most (if not all) of the Roman Catholic "Acts," prayers to various saints including the Blessed Mother and St. Joseph, a declaration of intention as well as additional instructions "for those who want to pray in their own words."

My similarly sized Old Orthodox Prayer Book (Erie, PA) has some 50 pages set aside for communion prayers.  No one would ever fault the Old Ritualists for being "incomplete."

So that brings us to ten pages.  Considering that it's patently obvious that the East tends to be more verbose in its prayers period, that's not much of a difference, especially when you consider that the RC book has a number of pages coaching one on how to pray in one's own words, a practice that's certainly worth ten pages.

I'm sorry, KShaft, but you don't really have a leg stand on in this.  Just because the Latin West tends to be more direct and less floral in its language does not mean it is deficient.  It just means it's different.

Deacon Lance makes a fantastic observation that if you manage to read the Daily Office literally every day, you're doing far more preparation for communion than waiting until Saturday night. 


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« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2013, 08:56:19 PM »

I've also read that after Rome was reconquered by the East Romans in the mid-6th century a lot of Byzantine influence came into the Latin Mass. Before that the Mass was much more sober and direct than it is now.

The book that states this is: _Byzantine Rome and the Greek Popes: Eastern influences on Rome and the papacy from Gregory the Great to Zacharias, A.D. 590–752_

The changes are also touched upon in this wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Papacy

Scholasticism.  The West thinks this way, say it clearly, directly, plainly, and it should only be said once.  One should be able to understand the prayer from there.

Not Scholaticism.  The Roman Rite was sober, staid, and direct long before Scholasticism came along.  Almost everything that isn't is an import from the Gallican Rite.
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« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2013, 09:31:19 PM »

I've also read that after Rome was reconquered by the East Romans in the mid-6th century a lot of Byzantine influence came into the Latin Mass. Before that the Mass was much more sober and direct than it is now.

The book that states this is: _Byzantine Rome and the Greek Popes: Eastern influences on Rome and the papacy from Gregory the Great to Zacharias, A.D. 590–752_

The changes are also touched upon in this wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Papacy

I think that influence was more in mosaic and architecture than Liturgy but the Kyrie, Agnus Dei, Trisagion, were imported from the East.
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« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2013, 09:35:21 PM »

I would also like to add that, in regards to the MD, there is nothing stopping you from adding the service of the Seven Penitential Psalms, with litany, to any of the canonical hours.

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« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2013, 10:37:04 PM »

Everything you're describing is a matter of taste, but you speak as if these are objective truths that any thoughtful person would agree with. They are not. It may surprise you that the verbose, flowery, circular language common to much of the Eastern tradition is tiresome, clunky, redundant, and disjointed to the Western mind. Not to all, of course, but to many. Compared to the linear, austere, haunting, qualities of the Western tradition, there's just no comparison for us.

I'm honestly not trying to be rude here, but saying something is better because it is longer, has more parts, takes more time, etc, seems a bit juvenile. Different traditions have different qualities and characteristics because people and cultures are different. We are not all beholden to fit the same mold, especially the Byzantine one.

Well if you were to tell me imagist poetry is along the same lines as Shakespeare, Dante, or Keats Id call you lunatic. But I guess thats subjective as well... Hey imagist is straight to the point with minimal verbage.... No its not an exact parallel by any means but I think if the prophet David would weigh in, hed probably prefer the eastern prayers.  The imagist would definitely prefer the western prayers....

No one is advocating minimalism. And the Latin tradition is not without its poetry. The issue is your false assumption that something is "better" or more "complete" merely because of its wordiness and the time it takes to work it through. Both traditions have nurtured countless saints. We should let their unique qualities be what they are.
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« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2013, 12:39:05 AM »

I have in front of me a copy of the very popular (in its day, at least) "Manual of Prayers," copyright 1888 with an imprimatur of Cardinal Gibbons. 

It has some 40 pages of communion devotions, starting with a number of psalms, prayers by St. Thomas Aquinas and Ambrose of Milan, as well an examination of conscience, most (if not all) of the Roman Catholic "Acts," prayers to various saints including the Blessed Mother and St. Joseph, a declaration of intention as well as additional instructions "for those who want to pray in their own words."

Similarly, my Roman Catholic Missal contains nine pre-Communion prayers plus other instructions for preparation. Following those are some 15 post-Communion prayers (which include the Te Deum).
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« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2013, 12:45:59 AM »

Just as the title says, why are not just the prayers shorter typically in the west, but also the Order of prayers. The Divine office is shorter, the liturgy is Shorter.  Not to mention where are all the supplementary Canons and Akathists and such that are found in the East. How about preparatory prayers for Holy Communion? They're almost non-existent...

Seeing the fullness of the Eastern Churches, it seems like there is an incompleteness about the west. Was this always the case or perhaps stuff was forcibly phased out or things dying out?

Scholasticism.  The West thinks this way, say it clearly, directly, plainly, and it should only be said once.  One should be able to understand the prayer from there.


Actually, the relative shortness of Western prayers and the relative length of Eastern prayers predates scholasticism by many centuries.
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« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2013, 12:48:39 AM »

Just as the title says, why are not just the prayers shorter typically in the west, but also the Order of prayers. The Divine office is shorter, the liturgy is Shorter.  Not to mention where are all the supplementary Canons and Akathists and such that are found in the East. How about preparatory prayers for Holy Communion? They're almost non-existent...

Seeing the fullness of the Eastern Churches, it seems like there is an incompleteness about the west. Was this always the case or perhaps stuff was forcibly phased out or things dying out?

Scholasticism.  The West thinks this way, say it clearly, directly, plainly, and it should only be said once.  One should be able to understand the prayer from there.

Scholasticism is a product of Aquanis or at least formed during that time definitively , but precursors were there to be sure. This is what happens when lawyers are your theologians.

I don't recall any lawyers amongst the Irish saints and they have the shortest prayers of all. Would anyone fault them? I mean, all of them had the Psalter memorized and prayed it daily--often in entirety. Some of their hymns were pretty long--much longer than the Roman hymns.
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« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2013, 01:01:05 AM »

I don't recall any lawyers amongst the Irish saints and they have the shortest prayers of all.

Ever seen Lorica? Also known as St Patrick's Breastplate. It seems to go on forever.  Smiley
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« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2013, 12:27:07 PM »

Just as the title says, why are not just the prayers shorter typically in the west, but also the Order of prayers. The Divine office is shorter, the liturgy is Shorter.  Not to mention where are all the supplementary Canons and Akathists and such that are found in the East. How about preparatory prayers for Holy Communion? They're almost non-existent...

Seeing the fullness of the Eastern Churches, it seems like there is an incompleteness about the west. Was this always the case or perhaps stuff was forcibly phased out or things dying out?

Scholasticism.  The West thinks this way, say it clearly, directly, plainly, and it should only be said once.  One should be able to understand the prayer from there.


Actually, the relative shortness of Western prayers and the relative length of Eastern prayers predates scholasticism by many centuries.

Does it? Compliations of pre-schism prayers Ive seen are more akin to eastern prayers than most stuff Ive seen in modern RC prayer books (even traditional ones).  It makes me wonder if these prayers are the result of scholastic thinking and theology. Meaning post schism since stuff began to be strictly regimented, some of the local prayers by local and pre schism saints were phased out for more recent prayers in a perhaps graceless church more tied up in philosophical thinking than supplication and seeking the Lord with ones heart and mind. Its almost like eastern prayers are like a childs view of the forest, and later western prayers are like a detectives view of a crime scene.

I am pleased to hear about pre-communion prayers and would think that if you kept the Divine office then that would suffice for preparation as well. The rule that has come into effect for Orthodox may be recent in its regimented form, but I would bet that it did in fact exist in some prototypical form very early in the church's history.

Oh Schultz I use your suggestion for the penitential prayers. I just use the Eastern introductory / exiting prayers with it. Thank you for the suggestion.

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« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2013, 02:21:40 PM »

Just as the title says, why are not just the prayers shorter typically in the west, but also the Order of prayers. The Divine office is shorter, the liturgy is Shorter.  Not to mention where are all the supplementary Canons and Akathists and such that are found in the East. How about preparatory prayers for Holy Communion? They're almost non-existent...

Seeing the fullness of the Eastern Churches, it seems like there is an incompleteness about the west. Was this always the case or perhaps stuff was forcibly phased out or things dying out?

Scholasticism.  The West thinks this way, say it clearly, directly, plainly, and it should only be said once.  One should be able to understand the prayer from there.


Actually, the relative shortness of Western prayers and the relative length of Eastern prayers predates scholasticism by many centuries.

I'm not doubting you but if you have a source on that, I would love to see it.  I was having a similar conversation with someone outside of this forum and that information would be beneficial.

Thanks! 
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« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2013, 10:27:37 PM »

Good article on Morning and Evening Prayer Rules

http://frsergei.wordpress.com/2009/12/22/morning-and-evening-prayer-rules-in-the-russian-orthodox-tradition/
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« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2013, 10:50:57 PM »

Actually, the relative shortness of Western prayers and the relative length of Eastern prayers predates scholasticism by many centuries.
Does it?

It does.  Study the Mass and Office of the Roman Rite pre-schism.  Services were even more staid than now.  Compare the Domincan or Carthusian Uses of the Roma Rite to the Tridentine Use and you can see how many accretions got added.  As I said, most things found in the Roman Rite similar to the East are imports from the Gallican Rite. The Ambrosian and Mozarabic Rites on the otherhand have many similarities with the East.
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« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2013, 12:35:35 AM »

I don't recall any lawyers amongst the Irish saints and they have the shortest prayers of all.

Ever seen Lorica? Also known as St Patrick's Breastplate. It seems to go on forever.  Smiley

Ah, not forever enough!
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« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2013, 12:38:36 AM »

Just as the title says, why are not just the prayers shorter typically in the west, but also the Order of prayers. The Divine office is shorter, the liturgy is Shorter.  Not to mention where are all the supplementary Canons and Akathists and such that are found in the East. How about preparatory prayers for Holy Communion? They're almost non-existent...

Seeing the fullness of the Eastern Churches, it seems like there is an incompleteness about the west. Was this always the case or perhaps stuff was forcibly phased out or things dying out?

Scholasticism.  The West thinks this way, say it clearly, directly, plainly, and it should only be said once.  One should be able to understand the prayer from there.


Actually, the relative shortness of Western prayers and the relative length of Eastern prayers predates scholasticism by many centuries.

I'm not doubting you but if you have a source on that, I would love to see it.  I was having a similar conversation with someone outside of this forum and that information would be beneficial.

Thanks! 

Check out the Antiphonary of Bangor. Several collects therein are just a sentence or two, shorter than the other Western rites' collects, generally speaking. Granted, what we have of the Celtic Rite is incomplete, but it's fascinating still.
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« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2013, 12:44:16 AM »

It seems to me there's a tendency to contrast East and West too sharply, leading to some pretty broad generalizations that can create some pretty weird distortions of the truth all for the sake of arguing some odd point. This happens in other cases when the two things being compared and contrasted are actually very similar.

But there is the problem of timing, from an Orthodox POV, when comparing East and West. To which West are we comparing/contrasting "ourselves?" To the pre-schism Orthodox West? To the post-schism medieval West? To the West we came from before converting, which may or may not have existed in a reality other than our own perception? To the West we find in summaries? To the West of today? And what on earth do we really mean when we say West and East?
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« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2013, 10:59:21 AM »


Actually, the relative shortness of Western prayers and the relative length of Eastern prayers predates scholasticism by many centuries.

I'm not doubting you but if you have a source on that, I would love to see it.  I was having a similar conversation with someone outside of this forum and that information would be beneficial.

Thanks! 



Check out the Antiphonary of Bangor. Several collects therein are just a sentence or two, shorter than the other Western rites' collects, generally speaking. Granted, what we have of the Celtic Rite is incomplete, but it's fascinating still.

Will do.  Thanks!
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« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2013, 04:50:51 PM »

Byzantine divine office = overly elaborate
Latin divine office = overly simplified

(To a lesser degree the same might be said about their holy qurbana/mass)

Yes, I agree with the original poster to some extent, I almost could have written the post myself.
As others have said, being short doesnt mean you can't work with it. I think that due to the shortness in some of the latin liturgies, this is why it is especially important to use the original plainchant melodies with them and not simplify or replace them, they make the entire rite more respectable and seem more equal to the others.

Their are most definitely hundreds prayers from before the year 1200 that can be used to enrich the office.
Fr. Aidan's prayer book has a good selection of them in it. The long litanies to specific saints and devotions is in some ways similar to the eastern akathists, than there are also the various votive offices which can usually replace the ferial office if one desires. (Before vatican II many of the masses during the week at average parishes were Requiems for praying for the dead using black vestments, old men who were altar boys back than tell stories about it.)

I tend to add this prayer to lauds and vespers when I pray it in private, I doubt anything would stop a parish or priest from using it either after the collect toward the end as their own individual or parish devotion (assuming no one minds).
At matins, lauds and vespers you can also use the preces such as these anytime, although more recentl centuries practice was to use them on penitential days, it is very clear from earlier manuscripts and councils that they were originally used all the time.
http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/uploads/FileUpload/a7/963e3ae53943051998b3281a191a9f.pdf

Quote
taken from: Meditationes S. Augustine (11th c.)

Written by St. Anselm of Canterbury (1033-1109), ascribed to St. Augustine of Hippo.
Anselmus Cantaurienses (1033-1109) attribuitur  S. Aurelius Augustinus Hipponensis

GOD, the true life, of, and by, and in
whom all things live, the summit and
source of all good! our faith in thee
excites, our hope exalts, our love
unites us. Thou commandest us to
seek thee, and art ready to be found;
thou biddest us knock, and openest
when we do so. (Mat. vii. 7.) To turn
from thee, is to fall into ruin and
death. To turn to thee, is to rise to life
and glory. To abide in thee, is to
stand fast and secure from danger.
No man loses thee, who does not
suffer himself to be deceived: no man
seeks thee, who does not submit to
instruction and reproof; no man
finds thee, who does not seek after
thee with a clean heart and purified
affections. To know thee is life, to
serve thee is to reign (in thy kingdom),
to praise thee is the joy and salvation
of the soul. I praise, bless and adore
thee, for thy clemency and goodness,
for all thy universal benefits, and
sing a hymn of thy glory:
holy, holy, holy, (art thou).

I humbly beseech thee,
O blessed Trinity, to come to me,
to abide with me, to reign in me,
to make me a holy temple, a fit
habitation for thy glory. I entreat
the Father by the Son, the Son by
the Father, the Holy Ghost by the
Father and the Son, that all those
vicious dispositions may be removed
far from me; and that all the holy
virtues may be implanted in me.


(DEUS summa et vera beatitudo,
a quo, per quem, et in quo beata sunt
omnia quaecumque beata sunt. Deus
vera et summa vita, a quo, per quem,
et in quo vivunt omnia quaecumque
vere et beate vivunt;  Deus bonum et
pulchrum, a quo, per quem, et in quo
bona et pulchra sunt omnia,
quaecumque bona et pulchra sunt;
Deus cujus nos fides excitat, spes
erigit, charitas jungit; Deus qui peti
te jubes, et inveniri facis, et pulsantibus
aperis; Deus a quo averti cadere est,
ad quem converti consurgere est, in
quo manere consistere est; Deus quem
nemo amittit nisi deceptus, nemo
quaerit nisi admonitus, nemo invenit
nisi purgatus; Deus quem nosse vivere
est, cui servire regnare est, quem
laudare salus et gaudium animae est:
te labiis et corde omnique qua valeo
virtute laudo, benedico atque adoro,
tuaeque clementiae et bonitati pro
universis beneficiis tuis gratias refero,
et hymnum gloriae tuae cano,
Sanctus, sanctus, sanctus.

Te invoco, o beata Trinitas, ut venias
in me, et templum me facias dignum
gloriae tuae. Rogo Patrem per Filium,
rogo Filium per Patrem, rogo Spiritum
sanctum per Patrem et Filium, ut et
omnia vitia elongentur a me, et omnes
sanctae virtutes plantentur in me. )

O thou Maker and Preserver of all
things, visible and invisible! keep,
I beseech thee, the work of thy own
hands, who trusts in thy mercy alone
for safety and protection. Guard me
with the power of thy grace, here and
in all places, now and at all times,
within and without, before and
behind, above and below; let thy holy
angels pitch their tents round about
me, and so possess themselves of all
the passes to my heart, that the
treacherous enemy of souls may have
no place left open, whereby to make
his approach.

Thou art the guardian and defender
of all that trust in thee; without
whose watchful care none can be safe;
without whose mighty power
none is a match for the dangers and
temptations which every moment
beset him. Thou art God, and there is
none beside thee, in heaven above, or
in earth beneath: Thou art great and
dost wondrous things; (Isa. xlv. 5; Ps.
lxxvii. 14.) which art inconceiveable,
and of which there is no number.

To Thee we should praise and To Thee
we should hymn; to thee all angels, to
thee all heaven and universal powers
hymn and say and sing Thy praises
unceasingly and pay the constant
humble homage due from creatures
to their Creator, from servants to their
Lord, from subjects and soldiers to
their victorious Leader and universal
King. All thee who be holy and hum-
ble of heart, the souls and the spirits
of the just, to Thee all the heavenly
citizens and all the orders of the
blessed spirits, humbly adoring sings
of Thy glory and honor without end.

(Deus immense, a quo omnia, per quem
omnia, in quo omnia facta sunt,
visibilia et invisibilia; qui opera tua
extra circumdas, et intra reples, supra
tegis, et infra fers ; custodi me opus
manuum tuarum in te sperantem,
in tua solummodo misericordia
confidentem; custodi me, queso, hic et
ubique, nunc et semper, intus et foris,
ante et retro , supra et infra,
et circumcirca; ita ut nullus in me
paleat locus in sidiis inimicorum.

Tu es Deus omnipotens, custos et
protector omnium in te sperantium,
sine quo nemo est tutus, nemo de
periculis liberatus. Tu es Deus, et non
est alius preter te, neque in celo
sursum, neque in terra deorsum,
qui facis magna et mirabilia et
inscrutabilia , quorum non est
numerus.

Te decet laus, te decet hymnus,
tibi omnes Angeli, tibi coeli et
universae potestates hymnos dicunt,
et laudes indesinenter concinunt,
utpote creatori creaturae, Domino
servi, regi milites: te sanctam et
individuam Trinitatem omnis
creatura magnificat, omnis spiritus
landat. Tibi sancti et humiles corde,
tibi spiritus et animae justorum,
tibi omnes superni cives et cuncti
beatorum spirituum ordines,
gloriam et honorem suppliciter
adorantes concinunt sine fine.)
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« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2013, 12:15:34 PM »

Byzantine divine office = overly elaborate
Latin divine office = overly simplified

This assumes there is some kind of actual, objective, observable standard somewhere "out there" by which we should measure each tradition. There is not.

Quote
(To a lesser degree the same might be said about their holy qurbana/mass)

Yes, I agree with the original poster to some extent, I almost could have written the post myself.
As others have said, being short doesnt mean you can't work with it. I think that due to the shortness in some of the latin liturgies, this is why it is especially important to use the original plainchant melodies with them and not simplify or replace them, they make the entire rite more respectable and seem more equal to the others.

"Respectable" compared to what? There is no value to length, or elaborateness, and on the opposite end, there is no value to shortness or simplicity, unless that is merely how each tradition developed on its own. Different cultures pray in different ways. Let the traditions be what they are.
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« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2013, 12:20:53 PM »

Prayers are for prayer. If you argue about them, you're not praying. Then, no prayer will do you any good.
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« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2013, 06:48:23 PM »

Byzantine divine office = overly elaborate
Latin divine office = overly simplified

This assumes there is some kind of actual, objective, observable standard somewhere "out there" by which we should measure each tradition. There is not.

Quote
(To a lesser degree the same might be said about their holy qurbana/mass)

Yes, I agree with the original poster to some extent, I almost could have written the post myself.
As others have said, being short doesnt mean you can't work with it. I think that due to the shortness in some of the latin liturgies, this is why it is especially important to use the original plainchant melodies with them and not simplify or replace them, they make the entire rite more respectable and seem more equal to the others.



"Respectable" compared to what? There is no value to length, or elaborateness, and on the opposite end, there is no value to shortness or simplicity, unless that is merely how each tradition developed on its own. Different cultures pray in different ways. Let the traditions be what they are.


Using a respected form of chant adds more "respectability" to any form of the Divine Office. Chanting the Office (particularly the western, particularly in Gregorian) adds a depth to it than is hard to put into words especially in a monastic setting. Ever venture inside one of those? Gregorian chant made it come alive. It became prayer, whereas before it was more like the slated psalm readings for that time in the day. Have you ever considered a Norvus Ordo parish? Youd feel right at home... I think ladies in head coverings might frighten you a bit... especially the ones with the primitive prayer beads! Oh my!
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« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2013, 07:54:54 PM »

Byzantine divine office = overly elaborate
Latin divine office = overly simplified

This assumes there is some kind of actual, objective, observable standard somewhere "out there" by which we should measure each tradition. There is not.

Quote
(To a lesser degree the same might be said about their holy qurbana/mass)

Yes, I agree with the original poster to some extent, I almost could have written the post myself.
As others have said, being short doesnt mean you can't work with it. I think that due to the shortness in some of the latin liturgies, this is why it is especially important to use the original plainchant melodies with them and not simplify or replace them, they make the entire rite more respectable and seem more equal to the others.



"Respectable" compared to what? There is no value to length, or elaborateness, and on the opposite end, there is no value to shortness or simplicity, unless that is merely how each tradition developed on its own. Different cultures pray in different ways. Let the traditions be what they are.


Using a respected form of chant adds more "respectability" to any form of the Divine Office. Chanting the Office (particularly the western, particularly in Gregorian) adds a depth to it than is hard to put into words especially in a monastic setting. Ever venture inside one of those? Gregorian chant made it come alive. It became prayer, whereas before it was more like the slated psalm readings for that time in the day. Have you ever considered a Norvus Ordo parish? Youd feel right at home... I think ladies in head coverings might frighten you a bit... especially the ones with the primitive prayer beads! Oh my!

I hope you weren't responding to Sleeper with that. If so, I'd say you've really misread him.
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« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2013, 08:04:06 PM »

Byzantine divine office = overly elaborate
Latin divine office = overly simplified

This assumes there is some kind of actual, objective, observable standard somewhere "out there" by which we should measure each tradition. There is not.

Quote
(To a lesser degree the same might be said about their holy qurbana/mass)

Yes, I agree with the original poster to some extent, I almost could have written the post myself.
As others have said, being short doesnt mean you can't work with it. I think that due to the shortness in some of the latin liturgies, this is why it is especially important to use the original plainchant melodies with them and not simplify or replace them, they make the entire rite more respectable and seem more equal to the others.



"Respectable" compared to what? There is no value to length, or elaborateness, and on the opposite end, there is no value to shortness or simplicity, unless that is merely how each tradition developed on its own. Different cultures pray in different ways. Let the traditions be what they are.


Using a respected form of chant adds more "respectability" to any form of the Divine Office. Chanting the Office (particularly the western, particularly in Gregorian) adds a depth to it than is hard to put into words especially in a monastic setting. Ever venture inside one of those? Gregorian chant made it come alive. It became prayer, whereas before it was more like the slated psalm readings for that time in the day. Have you ever considered a Norvus Ordo parish? Youd feel right at home... I think ladies in head coverings might frighten you a bit... especially the ones with the primitive prayer beads! Oh my!

What on earth are you talking about?
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« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2013, 08:04:41 PM »

Byzantine divine office = overly elaborate
Latin divine office = overly simplified

This assumes there is some kind of actual, objective, observable standard somewhere "out there" by which we should measure each tradition. There is not.

Quote
(To a lesser degree the same might be said about their holy qurbana/mass)

Yes, I agree with the original poster to some extent, I almost could have written the post myself.
As others have said, being short doesnt mean you can't work with it. I think that due to the shortness in some of the latin liturgies, this is why it is especially important to use the original plainchant melodies with them and not simplify or replace them, they make the entire rite more respectable and seem more equal to the others.



"Respectable" compared to what? There is no value to length, or elaborateness, and on the opposite end, there is no value to shortness or simplicity, unless that is merely how each tradition developed on its own. Different cultures pray in different ways. Let the traditions be what they are.


Using a respected form of chant adds more "respectability" to any form of the Divine Office. Chanting the Office (particularly the western, particularly in Gregorian) adds a depth to it than is hard to put into words especially in a monastic setting. Ever venture inside one of those? Gregorian chant made it come alive. It became prayer, whereas before it was more like the slated psalm readings for that time in the day. Have you ever considered a Norvus Ordo parish? Youd feel right at home... I think ladies in head coverings might frighten you a bit... especially the ones with the primitive prayer beads! Oh my!

I hope you weren't responding to Sleeper with that. If so, I'd say you've really misread him.

Ah, you beat me to it. Thank you Smiley
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« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2013, 09:23:45 PM »

To those who complain that Western prayers and the liturgy are too short, I give you the words of the Lord: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

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« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2013, 10:40:20 PM »

And to those who say the Eastern prayers are too long, I give you the solution: Liturgical Chinese. One God, one faith, one baptism, one syllable per word.
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« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2013, 01:19:25 AM »

I appreciate all perspectives given here. Some feel something is too little, some too much.

I appreciate the eastern and western traditions as they are and hope they can remain with minimal alteration.
Though it seems to be that tradition does allow for some growth and addition.
Taking away something from the liturgy is far worse than adding an additional edifying prayer (though only a bishop, abbot or abbess can formally officially add to the liturgy).
 
But without understanding what the tradition is none of that is relevant.

In this time of societal moral confusion, staying within our tradition is the best thing to do whether eastern or western.

Some people (including some clergy) do not know what the tradition is as clearly. They know the most important things, but the fine details are also useful. Encouraging more education and praying for virtuous leadership from our clergy is a good idea.
Though most of the learning of the tradition I think applies moreso to the latin rite, the byzantine rites have kept a strong living tradition that is more widely understood within the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2013, 02:03:00 AM »

To those who complain that Western prayers and the liturgy are too short, I give you the words of the Lord: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.



This was in reference to pagans who would chant the names of many different gods in hopes they would be heard by as many as possible.

The prayer life of peasants was typically Lots and Lots of Our Fathers, Glory Be's, and Hail Mary's. If they were lucky they might have a psalm or two memorized.

They couldn't read and they sure as hell couldn't afford a book until the 1500s and even then most still couldnt read.

The liturgy of St. James was/is five hours long. You know St. James, the Brother of Christ... Did our Lord misinform him? St. James got it wrong...?

The Words of the Lord taken out of context, again, by a protestant. Unfortunately this surprises me none but at the same time still irks me all the same.
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« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2013, 02:15:15 PM »

To those who complain that Western prayers and the liturgy are too short, I give you the words of the Lord: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Kind of how I see it, too.
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« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2013, 04:43:56 PM »

The liturgy of St. James was/is five hours long. You know St. James, the Brother of Christ... Did our Lord misinform him? St. James got it wrong...?

Do you honestly think this liturgy was created, in its entirety, by the brother of Our Lord, as a five-hour liturgy?
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« Reply #51 on: February 19, 2013, 06:33:36 PM »

The liturgy of St. James was/is five hours long. You know St. James, the Brother of Christ... Did our Lord misinform him? St. James got it wrong...?

Not the one currently in use.  Not even Coptic Liturgies go that long normally.
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« Reply #52 on: February 19, 2013, 06:40:35 PM »

The liturgy of St. James was/is five hours long. You know St. James, the Brother of Christ... Did our Lord misinform him? St. James got it wrong...?

Do you honestly think this liturgy was created, in its entirety, by the brother of Our Lord, as a five-hour liturgy?


 Im not entirely sure but I tend to believe what the Fathers say about the Faith. I dont try to "figure out" what "really happened" because I think I know better. I do know the first Christians worshiped in the temple and then had a separate service in their homes for the Eucharist. I do know that even St. Johns Liturgy goes for nearly two hours in my Church and Ive heard recordings without homilies go for nearly 3 hours.  I think you should put down the Cardinal Newman and maybe pickup St. Isaac the Syrian or maybe St. Seraphim of Sarov since you dont like those "Byzantine" dudes. Especially Byzantine. This aint Eastern-Western rite protestantism man.
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« Reply #53 on: February 19, 2013, 06:42:29 PM »

To those who complain that Western prayers and the liturgy are too short, I give you the words of the Lord: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.



How does that fit with "pray without ceasing"?
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« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2013, 06:45:53 PM »

The liturgy of St. James was/is five hours long. You know St. James, the Brother of Christ... Did our Lord misinform him? St. James got it wrong...?

Not the one currently in use.  Not even Coptic Liturgies go that long normally.

Every ordained clergy member I have talked to about this has said this was the case. Both "Roman"(Frankish) Catholic and True Catholic. There was a loss in continuity, and Im not sure even the Church in Jerusalem does it the same way as it was once done...
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« Reply #55 on: February 19, 2013, 06:50:13 PM »

To those who complain that Western prayers and the liturgy are too short, I give you the words of the Lord: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.



How does that fit with "pray without ceasing"?

Good observation.  He mentions heathen, not mistaken pharisees. Also "Knock and it will be opened to you" comes to mind, and the persistence of knocking which will eventually wake the master of the house.
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« Reply #56 on: February 19, 2013, 07:59:55 PM »

How does that fit with "pray without ceasing"?
Praying is nothing more than communicating.  I seem to have no problem communicating with my family and coworkers without babbling the same thing over and over.  I speak to God many times during the day, thanking him for His blessings and praising Him for His creation and the great works that He has done.  Yes, I even ask for things.  It seems the Eastern Church places great value on how much you say.  I have always found that God answers me just fine based on WHAT I say.  I have to admit that my prayer life was much better before I started using Eastern prayer books (or any for that matter).  I also noticed that it improved when I started to go back to my Western devotions at home.  Taking the time to sing the psalms and think about what I am asking works better for me than seeing how many words I can eject at God.  Each to his own, I guess.
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« Reply #57 on: February 19, 2013, 08:29:03 PM »

The liturgy of St. James was/is five hours long. You know St. James, the Brother of Christ... Did our Lord misinform him? St. James got it wrong...?

Do you honestly think this liturgy was created, in its entirety, by the brother of Our Lord, as a five-hour liturgy?


 Im not entirely sure but I tend to believe what the Fathers say about the Faith. I dont try to "figure out" what "really happened" because I think I know better. I do know the first Christians worshiped in the temple and then had a separate service in their homes for the Eucharist. I do know that even St. Johns Liturgy goes for nearly two hours in my Church and Ive heard recordings without homilies go for nearly 3 hours.  I think you should put down the Cardinal Newman and maybe pickup St. Isaac the Syrian or maybe St. Seraphim of Sarov since you dont like those "Byzantine" dudes. Especially Byzantine. This aint Eastern-Western rite protestantism man.

Liturgy runs about two hours in my Western Rite parish too. I'm not a big fan of Cardinal Newman and read St. Seraphim every Lent. I love me some Byzantine dudes. There, now you know more about me so you can stop assuming things. That's twice you've done that now. Try to actually follow and digest my posts if you're going to respond to them instead of bringing up things that neither I, nor anyone else in this thread, has brought up.
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« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2013, 08:51:28 PM »

To those who complain that Western prayers and the liturgy are too short, I give you the words of the Lord: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.



How does that fit with "pray without ceasing"?

Good observation.  He mentions heathen, not mistaken pharisees. Also "Knock and it will be opened to you" comes to mind, and the persistence of knocking which will eventually wake the master of the house.

You evidently do think we will be heard by our much speaking.  God does not work like that.  He is not the lottery.  The more tickets you buy for a given lottery the more likely you are to win.  The more words you use when you pray to God /=/ the more likely you are to wind up in heaven.
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« Reply #59 on: February 19, 2013, 10:02:23 PM »

To those who complain that Western prayers and the liturgy are too short, I give you the words of the Lord: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.



How does that fit with "pray without ceasing"?

Good observation.  He mentions heathen, not mistaken pharisees. Also "Knock and it will be opened to you" comes to mind, and the persistence of knocking which will eventually wake the master of the house.

You evidently do think we will be heard by our much speaking.  God does not work like that.  He is not the lottery.  The more tickets you buy for a given lottery the more likely you are to win.  The more words you use when you pray to God /=/ the more likely you are to wind up in heaven.

 Please, tell me how the Lord does work. I would love to know...  The overwhelming consensus to "Pray without ceasing" to the Fathers of the Church has been to state the name of Jesus Christ in what has developed into the Jesus prayer.  Perhaps if your church had a history to consult, this information would be available to you. Cut off the roots and the tree will die.
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« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2013, 10:11:17 PM »

Please, tell me how the Lord does work. I would love to know...  The overwhelming consensus to "Pray without ceasing" to the Fathers of the Church has been to state the name of Jesus Christ in what has developed into the Jesus prayer.  Perhaps if your church had a history to consult, this information would be available to you. Cut off the roots and the tree will die.

Praying without ceasing is not "pray a bunch so God listens," which is effectively what you're saying.
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« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2013, 10:27:01 PM »

Please, tell me how the Lord does work. I would love to know...  The overwhelming consensus to "Pray without ceasing" to the Fathers of the Church has been to state the name of Jesus Christ in what has developed into the Jesus prayer.  Perhaps if your church had a history to consult, this information would be available to you. Cut off the roots and the tree will die.

Praying without ceasing is not "pray a bunch so God listens," which is effectively what you're saying.

^This.

And I'd point out another inherent problem in your question: One cannot say how the Lord "works" because Christ (indeed all persons of the Trinity) are not machines.  Nor are they pagan deities able to be forced into certain actions.  God does not "work."  God is (or isn't, depending on what theologian you talk to).  We cannot compel God, and that should never be the purpose of prayer.

One cannot pray if the intent is to force God to do something.
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« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2013, 11:00:48 PM »

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« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2013, 11:24:03 PM »

How does that fit with "pray without ceasing"?
Praying is nothing more than communicating.  I seem to have no problem communicating with my family and coworkers without babbling the same thing over and over.  I speak to God many times during the day, thanking him for His blessings and praising Him for His creation and the great works that He has done.  Yes, I even ask for things.  It seems the Eastern Church places great value on how much you say.  I have always found that God answers me just fine based on WHAT I say.  I have to admit that my prayer life was much better before I started using Eastern prayer books (or any for that matter).  I also noticed that it improved when I started to go back to my Western devotions at home.  Taking the time to sing the psalms and think about what I am asking works better for me than seeing how many words I can eject at God.  Each to his own, I guess.

Where or when does EO ever teach that the value of prayer is in "how much you say"? Where does EO teach not to think about what you ask in prayer? False, not true, and way off.
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« Reply #64 on: February 20, 2013, 12:28:15 AM »

Being an episcopalian probably has some effect on Mr. Rottneck's views.
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« Reply #65 on: February 20, 2013, 01:15:32 AM »

Being an episcopalian probably has some effect on Mr. Rottneck's views.

So does being an American, or a Democrat, or a Midwesterner, or a Latino, or any other thing someone is. That doesn't disqualify their opinion nor does it render what they say irrelevant or incorrect. Feel free to challenge his arguments.
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« Reply #66 on: February 20, 2013, 02:04:39 AM »

To those who complain that Western prayers and the liturgy are too short, I give you the words of the Lord: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.



How does that fit with "pray without ceasing"?

Good observation.  He mentions heathen, not mistaken pharisees. Also "Knock and it will be opened to you" comes to mind, and the persistence of knocking which will eventually wake the master of the house.

You evidently do think we will be heard by our much speaking.  God does not work like that.  He is not the lottery.  The more tickets you buy for a given lottery the more likely you are to win.  The more words you use when you pray to God /=/ the more likely you are to wind up in heaven.

One ticket can win the lottery.  As someone once told me, "less is more."
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« Reply #67 on: February 20, 2013, 02:40:49 AM »

How does that fit with "pray without ceasing"?
Praying is nothing more than communicating.  I seem to have no problem communicating with my family and coworkers without babbling the same thing over and over.  I speak to God many times during the day, thanking him for His blessings and praising Him for His creation and the great works that He has done.  Yes, I even ask for things.  It seems the Eastern Church places great value on how much you say.  I have always found that God answers me just fine based on WHAT I say.  I have to admit that my prayer life was much better before I started using Eastern prayer books (or any for that matter).  I also noticed that it improved when I started to go back to my Western devotions at home.  Taking the time to sing the psalms and think about what I am asking works better for me than seeing how many words I can eject at God.  Each to his own, I guess.

Where or when does EO ever teach that the value of prayer is in "how much you say"? Where does EO teach not to think about what you ask in prayer? False, not true, and way off.

These guys are just WR Enthusists... see here: http://westernritecritic.wordpress.com/

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« Reply #68 on: February 20, 2013, 03:27:43 AM »

Being an episcopalian probably has some effect on Mr. Rottneck's views.

So does being an American, or a Democrat, or a Midwesterner, or a Latino, or any other thing someone is. That doesn't disqualify their opinion nor does it render what they say irrelevant or incorrect. Feel free to challenge his arguments.

What arguments? Towards himself for saying "thats how God works" and then me calling him on it and using my quote of him as a way to sharpshoot me for using the word "work" which was quoting HIM? Amazing!  Your style is to be commended sir! Absolutely original, yet totally moronic.  Your substance is vacuum like. Well perhaps more like the air of a porta john in Kuwait. Yeah Ive been there, Iraq too. Its hotter in Kuwait... much less deadly however...
For using a protestant argument against the Rosary which was a practice established pre Schism, not to mention the Jesus prayer done in prototypical form by St. Ignatius? Once again get a history man...  and while youre at it a few less lesbian Bishops...

Reactionary, scholastic, un patristic, arrogant, puffed up, lacking in contriteness; trying to convert Orthodoxy to Anglicanism rather than vice-versa, etc...etc...

I think this might be what Christopher M. was getting at.  You people bring more baggage than a Drewish princess... Theres nothing Humble or contrite about you. You have the mind of the Jews who turned over Christ. That of entitlement and superiority. Try submitting to the Church in totality instead of trying to make it submit to your whims. Thats the freemason influence. Loose it or go back to your pseudo church.

Obscenity removed from post  -PtA
You are being warned for using obscenities on a non-polemic board, and for attacking a poster instead of their post. Please learn to calm down and think about what you post before you send it.
-Arimethea
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« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 12:05:04 PM by arimethea » Logged
JamesRottnek
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« Reply #69 on: February 20, 2013, 03:39:03 AM »

How does that fit with "pray without ceasing"?
Praying is nothing more than communicating.  I seem to have no problem communicating with my family and coworkers without babbling the same thing over and over.  I speak to God many times during the day, thanking him for His blessings and praising Him for His creation and the great works that He has done.  Yes, I even ask for things.  It seems the Eastern Church places great value on how much you say.  I have always found that God answers me just fine based on WHAT I say.  I have to admit that my prayer life was much better before I started using Eastern prayer books (or any for that matter).  I also noticed that it improved when I started to go back to my Western devotions at home.  Taking the time to sing the psalms and think about what I am asking works better for me than seeing how many words I can eject at God.  Each to his own, I guess.

Where or when does EO ever teach that the value of prayer is in "how much you say"? Where does EO teach not to think about what you ask in prayer? False, not true, and way off.

These guys are just WR Enthusists... see here: http://westernritecritic.wordpress.com/



If "these guys" includes me, you'd be wrong.  While I enjoy the Book of Common Prayer, I actually love the Byzantine liturgy far, far more.

But it is absurdist to believe that long, drawn out prayer is important, let alone essential.
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« Reply #70 on: February 20, 2013, 03:39:43 AM »

Being an episcopalian probably has some effect on Mr. Rottneck's views.

So does being an American, or a Democrat, or a Midwesterner, or a Latino, or any other thing someone is. That doesn't disqualify their opinion nor does it render what they say irrelevant or incorrect. Feel free to challenge his arguments.

^This.  As with all people, I am shaped by all that I am now and all that I have been.
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I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
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« Reply #71 on: February 20, 2013, 03:47:35 AM »

How does that fit with "pray without ceasing"?
Praying is nothing more than communicating.  I seem to have no problem communicating with my family and coworkers without babbling the same thing over and over.  I speak to God many times during the day, thanking him for His blessings and praising Him for His creation and the great works that He has done.  Yes, I even ask for things.  It seems the Eastern Church places great value on how much you say.  I have always found that God answers me just fine based on WHAT I say.  I have to admit that my prayer life was much better before I started using Eastern prayer books (or any for that matter).  I also noticed that it improved when I started to go back to my Western devotions at home.  Taking the time to sing the psalms and think about what I am asking works better for me than seeing how many words I can eject at God.  Each to his own, I guess.

Where or when does EO ever teach that the value of prayer is in "how much you say"? Where does EO teach not to think about what you ask in prayer? False, not true, and way off.

These guys are just WR Enthusists... see here: http://westernritecritic.wordpress.com/



If "these guys" includes me, you'd be wrong.  While I enjoy the Book of Common Prayer, I actually love the Byzantine liturgy far, far more.

But it is absurdist to believe that long, drawn out prayer is important, let alone essential.

 The only thing that is absurd is to say the liturgical prayers of the One true Church, that is the Eastern Orthodox Church are unimportant or non essential which is what you are trying to say.
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« Reply #72 on: February 20, 2013, 03:55:42 AM »

Being an episcopalian probably has some effect on Mr. Rottneck's views.

So does being an American, or a Democrat, or a Midwesterner, or a Latino, or any other thing someone is. That doesn't disqualify their opinion nor does it render what they say irrelevant or incorrect. Feel free to challenge his arguments.

What arguments? Towards himself for saying "thats how God works" and then me calling him on it and using my quote of him as a way to sharpshoot me for using the word "work" which was quoting HIM? Amazing!  Your style is to be commended sir! Absolutely original, yet totally moronic.  Your substance is vacuum like. Well perhaps more like the air of a porta john in Kuwait. Yeah Ive been there, Iraq too. Its hotter in Kuwait... much less deadly however...
For using a protestant argument against the Rosary which was a practice established pre Schism, not to mention the Jesus prayer done in prototypical form by St. Ignatius? Once again get a history man...  and while youre at it a few less lesbian Bishops...

Reactionary, scholastic, un patristic, arrogant, puffed up, lacking in contriteness; trying to convert Orthodoxy to Anglicanism rather than vice-versa, etc...etc...

I think this might be what Christopher M. was getting at.  You people bring more baggage than a Drewish princess... Theres nothing Humble or contrite about you. You have the mind of the Jews who turned over Christ. That of entitlement and superiority. Try submitting to the Church in totality instead of trying to make it submit to your whims. Thats the freemason influence. Loose it or go back to your pseudo church.


Obscenity removed from post  -PtA
I'm going to let this section's moderator, arimethea, make the call as to what severity of discipline you deserve for your obscene hot-headedness in this and your last few posts, KShaft. In the meantime, this thread is now locked. If you try to continue this discussion somewhere else to get around the lock on this thread, I will put you on post moderation myself for multiplying offenses.

-PtA
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 04:07:22 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #73 on: February 20, 2013, 12:09:53 PM »

This thread will remain locked since the original poster was the one who caused the thread to spiral into a place it should not have gone. Please play nice in this section; this section is for discussion of Western Rite Liturgical practices and not for debate of the legitimacy of the Western Rite, please keep this in mind when posting.

-Arimethea
Liturgy Section Moderator
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