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Author Topic: Grounding-breaking moves by Pope Benedict XVI  (Read 1523 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« on: February 11, 2013, 08:25:44 PM »

I'm wondering how many shocking/startling/groundbreaking moves by Pope Benedict we can name.

The most obvious one, of course, is the one just announced today (which already has its own thread in the News section: The Pope to resign?!?! / Pope Benedict XVI resigns / Pope set to resign on Feb. 28th).

Others?
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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2013, 08:26:53 PM »

Hopefully he'll excommunicate the SSPX before the 28th
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« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2013, 08:27:31 PM »

Hopefully he'll excommunicate the SSPX before the 28th
Why would you say such an awful thing?
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« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2013, 08:27:39 PM »

Being German.
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« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2013, 08:28:37 PM »

Hopefully he'll excommunicate the SSPX before the 28th
Why would you say such an awful thing?

Excommunicating renegades is awful?
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« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2013, 08:33:01 PM »

Hopefully he'll excommunicate the SSPX before the 28th
Why would you say such an awful thing?

Excommunicating renegades is awful?
The SSPX is in greater agreement with Vatican II than is the run of the mill Fr. Bob who dissents from every manner of Church teaching. We need to keep workign with SSPX pastorally, in order to get them regularized.
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« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2013, 08:39:42 PM »

The SSPX is in greater agreement with Vatican II than is the run of the mill Fr. Bob who dissents from every manner of Church teaching. We need to keep workign with SSPX pastorally, in order to get them regularized.

They need to be excommunicated until such a time that they are in agreement with Rome.  Given that they do not have a ministry in the Roman Catholic Church yet continuously operates their chapels is a sign of distension against the Pope.  Excommunication doesn't mean the end of the road (why do Roman Catholics think that excommunication is like casting one onto hell?), it just gives a clear signal that they are not to be associated with by everyday Catholics until such a time that all issues have been resolved.
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« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2013, 08:43:05 PM »

The SSPX is in greater agreement with Vatican II than is the run of the mill Fr. Bob who dissents from every manner of Church teaching. We need to keep workign with SSPX pastorally, in order to get them regularized.

They need to be excommunicated until such a time that they are in agreement with Rome.  Given that they do not have a ministry in the Roman Catholic Church yet continuously operates their chapels is a sign of distension against the Pope.  Excommunication doesn't mean the end of the road (why do Roman Catholics think that excommunication is like casting one onto hell?), it just gives a clear signal that they are not to be associated with by everyday Catholics until such a time that all issues have been resolved.
Following this premise, how many bishops and priests would have to excommunicated around the world?
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« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2013, 08:49:38 PM »

The SSPX is in greater agreement with Vatican II than is the run of the mill Fr. Bob who dissents from every manner of Church teaching. We need to keep workign with SSPX pastorally, in order to get them regularized.

They need to be excommunicated until such a time that they are in agreement with Rome.  Given that they do not have a ministry in the Roman Catholic Church yet continuously operates their chapels is a sign of distension against the Pope.  Excommunication doesn't mean the end of the road (why do Roman Catholics think that excommunication is like casting one onto hell?), it just gives a clear signal that they are not to be associated with by everyday Catholics until such a time that all issues have been resolved.
Following this premise, how many bishops and priests would have to excommunicated around the world?
Wait. I thought you supported excommunication of 'liberal' Catholics?
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« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2013, 08:51:06 PM »

The SSPX is in greater agreement with Vatican II than is the run of the mill Fr. Bob who dissents from every manner of Church teaching. We need to keep workign with SSPX pastorally, in order to get them regularized.

They need to be excommunicated until such a time that they are in agreement with Rome.  Given that they do not have a ministry in the Roman Catholic Church yet continuously operates their chapels is a sign of distension against the Pope.  Excommunication doesn't mean the end of the road (why do Roman Catholics think that excommunication is like casting one onto hell?), it just gives a clear signal that they are not to be associated with by everyday Catholics until such a time that all issues have been resolved.
Following this premise, how many bishops and priests would have to excommunicated around the world?
Wait. I thought you supported excommunication of 'liberal' Catholics?
My point is that before we go after the SSPX who is almost complete agreement with Rome, why are we not going after truly heretical, liberal, priests and bishops?
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« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2013, 08:52:06 PM »

The SSPX is in greater agreement with Vatican II than is the run of the mill Fr. Bob who dissents from every manner of Church teaching. We need to keep workign with SSPX pastorally, in order to get them regularized.

They need to be excommunicated until such a time that they are in agreement with Rome.  Given that they do not have a ministry in the Roman Catholic Church yet continuously operates their chapels is a sign of distension against the Pope.  Excommunication doesn't mean the end of the road (why do Roman Catholics think that excommunication is like casting one onto hell?), it just gives a clear signal that they are not to be associated with by everyday Catholics until such a time that all issues have been resolved.
Following this premise, how many bishops and priests would have to excommunicated around the world?

I don't know how many.  But certainly any dissenter would either have to be excommunicated or deposed.  Or both.  The SSPX has so far done more harm than good to the Roman Catholic Church.  I don't see how being suspicious of anyone within your own Church outside your little group promotes a healthy spirituality.
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« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2013, 08:52:39 PM »

The SSPX is in greater agreement with Vatican II than is the run of the mill Fr. Bob who dissents from every manner of Church teaching. We need to keep workign with SSPX pastorally, in order to get them regularized.

They need to be excommunicated until such a time that they are in agreement with Rome.  Given that they do not have a ministry in the Roman Catholic Church yet continuously operates their chapels is a sign of distension against the Pope.  Excommunication doesn't mean the end of the road (why do Roman Catholics think that excommunication is like casting one onto hell?), it just gives a clear signal that they are not to be associated with by everyday Catholics until such a time that all issues have been resolved.
Following this premise, how many bishops and priests would have to excommunicated around the world?
Wait. I thought you supported excommunication of 'liberal' Catholics?
My point is that before we go after the SSPX who is almost complete agreement with Rome, why are we not going after truly heretical, liberal, priests and bishops?

Why does it have to be an order?  Besides, the SSPX are more visible and have been on this track for over 30 years.
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« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2013, 09:02:05 PM »

The SSPX is in greater agreement with Vatican II than is the run of the mill Fr. Bob who dissents from every manner of Church teaching. We need to keep workign with SSPX pastorally, in order to get them regularized.

They need to be excommunicated until such a time that they are in agreement with Rome.  Given that they do not have a ministry in the Roman Catholic Church yet continuously operates their chapels is a sign of distension against the Pope.  Excommunication doesn't mean the end of the road (why do Roman Catholics think that excommunication is like casting one onto hell?), it just gives a clear signal that they are not to be associated with by everyday Catholics until such a time that all issues have been resolved.
Following this premise, how many bishops and priests would have to excommunicated around the world?
Wait. I thought you supported excommunication of 'liberal' Catholics?
My point is that before we go after the SSPX who is almost complete agreement with Rome, why are we not going after truly heretical, liberal, priests and bishops?

Why does it have to be an order?  Besides, the SSPX are more visible and have been on this track for over 30 years.
1. The liberals have been on this path since the 1960s.
2. The SSPX actually believes what the Church teaches.
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« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2013, 09:05:06 PM »

1. The liberals have been on this path since the 1960s.
2. The SSPX actually believes what the Church teaches.

No.  The SSPX believes what they believe to be what the RCChurch teaches, not what the RCChurch actually teaches.
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« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2013, 09:06:08 PM »

1. The liberals have been on this path since the 1960s.
2. The SSPX actually believes what the Church teaches.

No.  The SSPX believes what they believe to be what the RCChurch teaches, not what the RCChurch actually teaches.
Not sure I agree with you about that. But let's make this clear. Liberal priests and bishops know that they are dissenting from the Church and do it anyway.
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« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2013, 09:07:19 PM »

Getting a Twitter account.

REVOLUTIONARY.
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« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2013, 09:10:34 PM »

Saw thread title.

Entered thread expecting to see the Pope dancing.

Son I am disappoint.
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« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2013, 09:10:59 PM »

1. The liberals have been on this path since the 1960s.
2. The SSPX actually believes what the Church teaches.

No.  The SSPX believes what they believe to be what the RCChurch teaches, not what the RCChurch actually teaches.
Not sure I agree with you about that. But let's make this clear. Liberal priests and bishops know that they are dissenting from the Church and do it anyway.

I'm not disagreeing that they are on the same boat as the SSPX.  But the SSPX is an organized group who as a group stands for all things they dissent about.  Liberal priests and bishops aren't as identifiable.  Some of course become known through infamy.  I don't know why you keep bringing up the liberal clerics to this discussion, I only brought up the SSPX.  I'm not saying they should not be excommunicated, so time to let it go.  The issue here is the SSPX.
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« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2013, 09:11:34 PM »

Getting a Twitter account.

REVOLUTIONARY.

Perhaps why he is resigning.  Another man is claimed by the internet.  He can't do his job anymore because of that.  Grin
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« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2013, 09:12:51 PM »

1. The liberals have been on this path since the 1960s.
2. The SSPX actually believes what the Church teaches.

No.  The SSPX believes what they believe to be what the RCChurch teaches, not what the RCChurch actually teaches.
Not sure I agree with you about that. But let's make this clear. Liberal priests and bishops know that they are dissenting from the Church and do it anyway.

I'm not disagreeing that they are on the same boat as the SSPX.  But the SSPX is an organized group who as a group stands for all things they dissent about.  Liberal priests and bishops aren't as identifiable.  Some of course become known through infamy.  I don't know why you keep bringing up the liberal clerics to this discussion, I only brought up the SSPX.  I'm not saying they should not be excommunicated, so time to let it go.  The issue here is the SSPX.
I don't think they are heretical. The have issues with some statements from VII, but that does not mean that they are dissenting from the faith. VII was a pastoral council, and if there is good reason to question the way a statement from VII was worded, then so be it. I agree that in some ways the SSPX is disobedient, but I don't think that excommunication is the way to fix the problem.
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« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2013, 09:14:53 PM »

Getting a Twitter account.

REVOLUTIONARY.

Perhaps why he is resigning.  Another man is claimed by the internet.  He can't do his job anymore because of that.  Grin

Yeah, Twitter wars catch everyone, sooner or later. Smiley
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« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2013, 09:16:37 PM »

Getting a Twitter account.

REVOLUTIONARY.

Perhaps why he is resigning.  Another man is claimed by the internet.  He can't do his job anymore because of that.  Grin
Are you implying that Benedict XVI is spending all his time lurking and posting on orthodoxchristianity.net under an assumed name?
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« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2013, 09:17:38 PM »

Getting a Twitter account.

REVOLUTIONARY.

Perhaps why he is resigning.  Another man is claimed by the internet.  He can't do his job anymore because of that.  Grin
Are you implying that Benedict XVI is spending all his time lurking and posting on orthodoxchristianity.net under an assumed name?
Plot Twist, Isa is actually Pope Benedict.
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« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2013, 09:24:51 PM »

I knew it!
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« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2013, 09:32:49 PM »

1. The liberals have been on this path since the 1960s.
2. The SSPX actually believes what the Church teaches.

No.  The SSPX believes what they believe to be what the RCChurch teaches, not what the RCChurch actually teaches.
Not sure I agree with you about that. But let's make this clear. Liberal priests and bishops know that they are dissenting from the Church and do it anyway.

I'm not disagreeing that they are on the same boat as the SSPX.  But the SSPX is an organized group who as a group stands for all things they dissent about.  Liberal priests and bishops aren't as identifiable.  Some of course become known through infamy.  I don't know why you keep bringing up the liberal clerics to this discussion, I only brought up the SSPX.  I'm not saying they should not be excommunicated, so time to let it go.  The issue here is the SSPX.
I don't think they are heretical. The have issues with some statements from VII, but that does not mean that they are dissenting from the faith. VII was a pastoral council, and if there is good reason to question the way a statement from VII was worded, then so be it. I agree that in some ways the SSPX is disobedient, but I don't think that excommunication is the way to fix the problem.

You seem to be confused between excommunication and anathemization (is that a word?).  Excommunication isn't only about heresy.  There are canonical issues and there are theological disputes.  That itself is more than a good enough reason to break communion for now while the dialogue moves forward towards a resolution.
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« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2013, 09:33:51 PM »

Getting a Twitter account.

REVOLUTIONARY.

Perhaps why he is resigning.  Another man is claimed by the internet.  He can't do his job anymore because of that.  Grin
Are you implying that Benedict XVI is spending all his time lurking and posting on orthodoxchristianity.net under an assumed name?

Nah.  He wouldn't have time for OC.net given ever growing number of tweeps.
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« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2013, 10:04:56 PM »

Saw thread title.

Entered thread expecting to see the Pope dancing.

 laugh

Maybe I was wrong when I said this forum is the black hole of humor.
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« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2013, 10:06:57 PM »

Getting a Twitter account.

REVOLUTIONARY.

Perhaps why he is resigning.  Another man is claimed by the internet.  He can't do his job anymore because of that.  Grin
Are you implying that Benedict XVI is spending all his time lurking and posting on orthodoxchristianity.net under an assumed name?

Nah.  He wouldn't have time for OC.net given ever growing number of tweeps.
I never disagree when some one tells me I'm confused. Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2013, 11:21:58 PM »

Saw thread title.

Entered thread expecting to see the Pope dancing.

Son I am disappoint.

His inside move to the basket and fall away jumper are awesome. However, his defense is an issue. Also, it's always about him and that's an historic locker room issue. Definitely not a team player...oh....sorry, I thought this was about Melo and the Knicks.
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« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2013, 01:27:40 PM »

Getting a Twitter account.

REVOLUTIONARY.

Perhaps why he is resigning.  Another man is claimed by the internet.  He can't do his job anymore because of that.  Grin
Are you implying that Benedict XVI is spending all his time lurking and posting on orthodoxchristianity.net under an assumed name?
Plot Twist, Isa is actually Pope Benedict.

LOL!!

That's great--a German Pope masquerading as an Arab Orthodox anti-Pope  Grin Grin.  No wonder he's resigning--the cognitive dissonance must be totally overwhelming  Cool.
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« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2013, 01:28:47 PM »

Saw thread title.

Entered thread expecting to see the Pope dancing.

Son I am disappoint.

His inside move to the basket and fall away jumper are awesome. However, his defense is an issue. Also, it's always about him and that's an historic locker room issue. Definitely not a team player...oh....sorry, I thought this was about Melo and the Knicks.

Cardinal Lin.
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« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2013, 05:05:31 PM »

i think we should pray for the catholic church lots and lots. it's obviously a big and difficult time for them and the enemy wants to make a mess there.
may God have mercy.

by the way, i don't understand all the stuff in this thread about sspx
(society of something or other about the previous roman patriarch pious the tenth).

1. what does it actually stand for again? (i always get confused)

2. why are they antiChrists / part of the 'illuminati' bringing the end of world etc. etc? (most popular internet opinion if you try and fail to get a straight answer about who they actually are)

3. why are they not the above, but actually a brilliant and special group and helping to keep the catholic church on the straight path? (i met a really nice catholic guy recently that had this opinion, but that was before the resignation and the lightning)

4. i mean why does everyone have really strong feelings about them? what have they been up to?

5. are they not just some minor group within the catholic church that likes to speak in latin? (my understanding so far)

i would like answers to include some brief history of what they did, and an explanation of which groups think they are wonderful and which hate them.
if this can be done without anyone getting offended, that would be great, as i am honestly trying to make sense of  all the rubbish on the internet. i heard nothing about them when i was protestant, and have had nothing from the coptic church on them, so i am really in the dark.
i realise this is orthodoxChristianity.net, so i apologise in advance to all the people i have already offended without meaning to.
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« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2013, 05:20:04 PM »

i think we should pray for the catholic church lots and lots. it's obviously a big and difficult time for them and the enemy wants to make a mess there.
may God have mercy.

by the way, i don't understand all the stuff in this thread about sspx
(society of something or other about the previous roman patriarch pious the tenth).

1. what does it actually stand for again? (i always get confused)

2. why are they antiChrists / part of the 'illuminati' bringing the end of world etc. etc? (most popular internet opinion if you try and fail to get a straight answer about who they actually are)

3. why are they not the above, but actually a brilliant and special group and helping to keep the catholic church on the straight path? (i met a really nice catholic guy recently that had this opinion, but that was before the resignation and the lightning)

4. i mean why does everyone have really strong feelings about them? what have they been up to?

5. are they not just some minor group within the catholic church that likes to speak in latin? (my understanding so far)

i would like answers to include some brief history of what they did, and an explanation of which groups think they are wonderful and which hate them.
if this can be done without anyone getting offended, that would be great, as i am honestly trying to make sense of  all the rubbish on the internet. i heard nothing about them when i was protestant, and have had nothing from the coptic church on them, so i am really in the dark.
i realise this is orthodoxChristianity.net, so i apologise in advance to all the people i have already offended without meaning to.
Here is my understanding:
The Society of Saint Pius X believes that Vatican II is a non-binding council that is in error on some matters. They also believe that that the move from the old Latin mass to the new mass was a big mistake. When the Latin mass very greatly suppressed, the founder of SSPX ordained several bishops without the approval of Rome, in order to continue their traditional Catholic mission. As a result of this act of disobedience, the clergy of SSPX were excommunicated.
Pope Benedict, in an attempt to heal the rift between the Vatican and SSPX, removed the excommunication. Unfortunately, the SSPX remains obstinate in its rejection of VII and so, they remain in cannonical limbo.
The problem with the SSPX is their disobedience to Rome in ordaining bishops without approval from the Pope, and their rejection of VII.
However, the ironic thing is that SSPX is in greater agreement with VII than many of the liberal priests and bishops we have been dealing with over the past 50 years. In fact, one might argue that the SSPX is not so much in disagreement with Rome, as they misunderstand the proper interpretation of VII. While I don't approve of their disobedience, they still remain a healthy corrective to current state of the Church.
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« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2013, 05:44:12 PM »

i think we should pray for the catholic church lots and lots. it's obviously a big and difficult time for them and the enemy wants to make a mess there.
may God have mercy.

by the way, i don't understand all the stuff in this thread about sspx
(society of something or other about the previous roman patriarch pious the tenth).

1. what does it actually stand for again? (i always get confused)

2. why are they antiChrists / part of the 'illuminati' bringing the end of world etc. etc? (most popular internet opinion if you try and fail to get a straight answer about who they actually are)

3. why are they not the above, but actually a brilliant and special group and helping to keep the catholic church on the straight path? (i met a really nice catholic guy recently that had this opinion, but that was before the resignation and the lightning)

4. i mean why does everyone have really strong feelings about them? what have they been up to?

5. are they not just some minor group within the catholic church that likes to speak in latin? (my understanding so far)

i would like answers to include some brief history of what they did, and an explanation of which groups think they are wonderful and which hate them.
if this can be done without anyone getting offended, that would be great, as i am honestly trying to make sense of  all the rubbish on the internet. i heard nothing about them when i was protestant, and have had nothing from the coptic church on them, so i am really in the dark.
i realise this is orthodoxChristianity.net, so i apologise in advance to all the people i have already offended without meaning to.
Here is my understanding:
The Society of Saint Pius X believes that Vatican II is a non-binding council that is in error on some matters. They also believe that that the move from the old Latin mass to the new mass was a big mistake. When the Latin mass very greatly suppressed, the founder of SSPX ordained several bishops without the approval of Rome, in order to continue their traditional Catholic mission. As a result of this act of disobedience, the clergy of SSPX were excommunicated.
Pope Benedict, in an attempt to heal the rift between the Vatican and SSPX, removed the excommunication. Unfortunately, the SSPX remains obstinate in its rejection of VII and so, they remain in cannonical limbo.
The problem with the SSPX is their disobedience to Rome in ordaining bishops without approval from the Pope, and their rejection of VII.
However, the ironic thing is that SSPX is in greater agreement with VII than many of the liberal priests and bishops we have been dealing with over the past 50 years. In fact, one might argue that the SSPX is not so much in disagreement with Rome, as they misunderstand the proper interpretation of VII. While I don't approve of their disobedience, they still remain a healthy corrective to current state of the Church.

Don't forget that Rome clearly stated that they have no active ministry in the Church, yet still operates all their chapels and tells people they are a Roman Catholic chapel.  I think this is the biggest one.

Also Pope Benedict last year said he'll have a decision on this matter by the Fall.  It already almost Spring and he is on the way out of the Papacy and this thing has yet to be brought to a conclusion.

By the way, despite what the SSPX claim they believe, I have never met an SSPX member who believes that the Pauline Mass to be valid.  How can that be "mostly in agreement with the Church" when your normative Liturgy is viewed as invalid?  Can one person be Orthodox and say that only St. Basil's Liturgy is valid and not St. John Chrysostom's?
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« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2013, 06:34:59 PM »

i think we should pray for the catholic church lots and lots. it's obviously a big and difficult time for them and the enemy wants to make a mess there.
may God have mercy.

by the way, i don't understand all the stuff in this thread about sspx
(society of something or other about the previous roman patriarch pious the tenth).

1. what does it actually stand for again? (i always get confused)

2. why are they antiChrists / part of the 'illuminati' bringing the end of world etc. etc? (most popular internet opinion if you try and fail to get a straight answer about who they actually are)

3. why are they not the above, but actually a brilliant and special group and helping to keep the catholic church on the straight path? (i met a really nice catholic guy recently that had this opinion, but that was before the resignation and the lightning)

4. i mean why does everyone have really strong feelings about them? what have they been up to?

5. are they not just some minor group within the catholic church that likes to speak in latin? (my understanding so far)

i would like answers to include some brief history of what they did, and an explanation of which groups think they are wonderful and which hate them.
if this can be done without anyone getting offended, that would be great, as i am honestly trying to make sense of  all the rubbish on the internet. i heard nothing about them when i was protestant, and have had nothing from the coptic church on them, so i am really in the dark.
i realise this is orthodoxChristianity.net, so i apologise in advance to all the people i have already offended without meaning to.
Here is my understanding:
The Society of Saint Pius X believes that Vatican II is a non-binding council that is in error on some matters. They also believe that that the move from the old Latin mass to the new mass was a big mistake. When the Latin mass very greatly suppressed, the founder of SSPX ordained several bishops without the approval of Rome, in order to continue their traditional Catholic mission. As a result of this act of disobedience, the clergy of SSPX were excommunicated.
Pope Benedict, in an attempt to heal the rift between the Vatican and SSPX, removed the excommunication. Unfortunately, the SSPX remains obstinate in its rejection of VII and so, they remain in cannonical limbo.
The problem with the SSPX is their disobedience to Rome in ordaining bishops without approval from the Pope, and their rejection of VII.
However, the ironic thing is that SSPX is in greater agreement with VII than many of the liberal priests and bishops we have been dealing with over the past 50 years. In fact, one might argue that the SSPX is not so much in disagreement with Rome, as they misunderstand the proper interpretation of VII. While I don't approve of their disobedience, they still remain a healthy corrective to current state of the Church.

Don't forget that Rome clearly stated that they have no active ministry in the Church, yet still operates all their chapels and tells people they are a Roman Catholic chapel.  I think this is the biggest one.

Also Pope Benedict last year said he'll have a decision on this matter by the Fall.  It already almost Spring and he is on the way out of the Papacy and this thing has yet to be brought to a conclusion.

By the way, despite what the SSPX claim they believe, I have never met an SSPX member who believes that the Pauline Mass to be valid.  How can that be "mostly in agreement with the Church" when your normative Liturgy is viewed as invalid?  Can one person be Orthodox and say that only St. Basil's Liturgy is valid and not St. John Chrysostom's?

People say things like that on this board all the time.
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« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2013, 08:17:32 PM »

i think we should pray for the catholic church lots and lots. it's obviously a big and difficult time for them and the enemy wants to make a mess there.
may God have mercy.

by the way, i don't understand all the stuff in this thread about sspx
(society of something or other about the previous roman patriarch pious the tenth).

I was going to say that they're Catholicism's main "traditionalist" group, but I see that Papist (Chris) has already posted a much better explanation.  Smiley
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« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2013, 08:20:27 PM »

i think we should pray for the catholic church lots and lots. it's obviously a big and difficult time for them and the enemy wants to make a mess there.
may God have mercy.

by the way, i don't understand all the stuff in this thread about sspx
(society of something or other about the previous roman patriarch pious the tenth).

I was going to say that they're Catholicism's main "traditionalist" group, but I see that Papist (Chris) has already posted a much better explanation.  Smiley

Part of Roman Catholic Tradition is fealty to the Pope.  So when he says you don't have a ministry, you shouldn't be offering public Masses in your chapels.
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« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2013, 08:25:44 PM »

Getting a Twitter account.

REVOLUTIONARY.

Perhaps why he is resigning.  Another man is claimed by the internet.  He can't do his job anymore because of that.  Grin
Are you implying that Benedict XVI is spending all his time lurking and posting on orthodoxchristianity.net under an assumed name?
Plot Twist, Isa is actually Pope Benedict.

LOL!!

That's great--a German Pope masquerading as an Arab Orthodox anti-Pope  Grin Grin.  No wonder he's resigning--the cognitive dissonance must be totally overwhelming  Cool.
Or he just can't find himself on the map.
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« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2013, 10:43:33 PM »

The SSPX is in greater agreement with Vatican II than is the run of the mill Fr. Bob who dissents from every manner of Church teaching. We need to keep workign with SSPX pastorally, in order to get them regularized.

They need to be excommunicated until such a time that they are in agreement with Rome.  Given that they do not have a ministry in the Roman Catholic Church yet continuously operates their chapels is a sign of distension against the Pope.  Excommunication doesn't mean the end of the road (why do Roman Catholics think that excommunication is like casting one onto hell?), it just gives a clear signal that they are not to be associated with by everyday Catholics until such a time that all issues have been resolved.

don't make me merge the sspx stuff into an existing sspx thread ---username! section moderator
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« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2013, 07:15:20 PM »

dear username, please post a link and tell me what page to start reading (sorry, i can't bear to wade through 15 pages of 50 posts each...)
the little comments so far are very useful.

for what it's worth, i think the main (?only) good thing about vatican 2 was changing the mass into a language the people speak.
saying you are 'traditionalist', yet insisting 99% people worship in a foreign language (latin) seems to me to be missing the point of all the church missionaries of the first 1,000 years!
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« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2013, 07:19:58 PM »

dear username, please post a link and tell me what page to start reading (sorry, i can't bear to wade through 15 pages of 50 posts each...)
the little comments so far are very useful.

for what it's worth, i think the main (?only) good thing about vatican 2 was changing the mass into a language the people speak.
saying you are 'traditionalist', yet insisting 99% people worship in a foreign language (latin) seems to me to be missing the point of all the church missionaries of the first 1,000 years!

Ironic that we Orthodox talk so much about using the vernacular, when there are probably now more Orthodox who don't understand their worship services than Catholics.
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« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2013, 07:21:06 PM »

dear username, please post a link and tell me what page to start reading (sorry, i can't bear to wade through 15 pages of 50 posts each...)
the little comments so far are very useful.

for what it's worth, i think the main (?only) good thing about vatican 2 was changing the mass into a language the people speak.
saying you are 'traditionalist', yet insisting 99% people worship in a foreign language (latin) seems to me to be missing the point of all the church missionaries of the first 1,000 years!

Not to be a pain, but Latin was used for hundreds of years in much of Western Europe, and over the years, mutated into the Romance languages. (French, Spanish, Italian, etc.) So, there was a time when it was not too far removed from the public who heard the Mass. Also, they used to teach Latin in Catholic school, at least in North America. That's all I wanted to throw in. I'll go back in the box now.  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2013, 07:21:45 PM »

dear username, please post a link and tell me what page to start reading (sorry, i can't bear to wade through 15 pages of 50 posts each...)
the little comments so far are very useful.

for what it's worth, i think the main (?only) good thing about vatican 2 was changing the mass into a language the people speak.
saying you are 'traditionalist', yet insisting 99% people worship in a foreign language (latin) seems to me to be missing the point of all the church missionaries of the first 1,000 years!

Summorum Pontificum is indeed groundbreaking, at least for the RC traditionalists.  I don't mean to turn this thread into about the SSPX, but I really think that next groundbreaking move is long overdue and I wish he would pull the trigger in the next 2 weeks.  With German precision, Pope Benedict has done all the right things and said all the right words, its about time that extremists from both sides (left and right) be sent that message.  He could also throw down a couple of excommunications to the pro-abort politicians in the US just to send a message.
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« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2013, 07:24:12 PM »

dear username, please post a link and tell me what page to start reading (sorry, i can't bear to wade through 15 pages of 50 posts each...)
the little comments so far are very useful.

for what it's worth, i think the main (?only) good thing about vatican 2 was changing the mass into a language the people speak.
saying you are 'traditionalist', yet insisting 99% people worship in a foreign language (latin) seems to me to be missing the point of all the church missionaries of the first 1,000 years!

Not to be a pain, but Latin was used for hundreds of years in much of Western Europe, and over the years, mutated into the Romance languages. (French, Spanish, Italian, etc.) So, there was a time when it was not too far removed from the public who heard the Mass. Also, they used to teach Latin in Catholic school, at least in North America. That's all I wanted to throw in. I'll go back in the box now.  Lips Sealed

Latin was fine when they were confined to Western Europe.  But do you expect the Asians and Africans to learn a totally foreign language?  At least South Americans adopted Spanish (and Portugese for Brazil) which are those Romance Languages.  There is already a lot to learn about the faith as it is, why complicate it further with having people learn a new language?
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« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2013, 07:45:52 PM »

choy, i said i don't speak latin! (even though i did study it a bit at school)
so what is summorum pontificum?
and why is it groundbreaking?
(my school latin was related to the love affair between dido and aeneas, nothing papal going on there.)

and is opus dei the same as sspx? (i still don't know what sspx stands for).
if not, which one of them is (supposed to be) taking over the world as part of the illuminati?
why do conspiracy theorists believe in aliens and still expect us to take them seriously?
(ok, u can ignore that last question, just in my mind it's related to the others, but you will probably consider it off topic).
sorry, for all the questions, shall i start a new thread on 'mabsoota's great catholic confusion'?
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« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2013, 08:04:21 PM »

choy, i said i don't speak latin! (even though i did study it a bit at school)
so what is summorum pontificum?
and why is it groundbreaking?
(my school latin was related to the love affair between dido and aeneas, nothing papal going on there.)

and is opus dei the same as sspx? (i still don't know what sspx stands for).
if not, which one of them is (supposed to be) taking over the world as part of the illuminati?
why do conspiracy theorists believe in aliens and still expect us to take them seriously?
(ok, u can ignore that last question, just in my mind it's related to the others, but you will probably consider it off topic).
sorry, for all the questions, shall i start a new thread on 'mabsoota's great catholic confusion'?

I guess it is all in line with the topic.

Summorum Pontificum is an exercise in universal ordinary jurisdiction.  It basically told all bishops that they need to allow for the celebration of the Traditional Latin Mass whether they like to or not.  This is much to the delight of traditionalists.  Also it has created factions within the Roman Catholic Church of those who prefer the Latin Mass exclusively and those who won't even think about the Latin Mass and prefer the OF mostly because it is in a language they can understand.

The SSPX is the traditionalist group that called for the return of the Traditional Latin Mass.  Though their fight for this restoration is marred by conflict with the Vatican and local bishops.  Its founder, Archbishop Lefebvre, was excommunicated for violating Vatican canons on consecrating new bishops.  He consecrated new bishops that would continue his fight but the Pope never approved of the consecrations.  The Opus Dei is a completely different group with a completely different story.

SSPX stands for Society of St. Pius X.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 08:04:41 PM by choy » Logged
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« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2013, 08:10:05 PM »

Opus Dei is not the same as SSPX- Opus Dei is a personal prelature in union with Rome. SSPX is a heretical schismatic group that believes the Pauline Mass is invalid, even though it's actually closer to any one of the Eastern Rite Liturgies. (Ektenia of the Faithful/General Intercessions, Bringing of Gifts/Great Entrance, procession with Gospel, clear Epiclesis, etc.)
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« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2013, 11:15:39 PM »

dear username, please post a link and tell me what page to start reading (sorry, i can't bear to wade through 15 pages of 50 posts each...)
the little comments so far are very useful.

for what it's worth, i think the main (?only) good thing about vatican 2 was changing the mass into a language the people speak.
saying you are 'traditionalist', yet insisting 99% people worship in a foreign language (latin) seems to me to be missing the point of all the church missionaries of the first 1,000 years!

Not to be a pain, but Latin was used for hundreds of years in much of Western Europe, and over the years, mutated into the Romance languages. (French, Spanish, Italian, etc.) So, there was a time when it was not too far removed from the public who heard the Mass. Also, they used to teach Latin in Catholic school, at least in North America. That's all I wanted to throw in. I'll go back in the box now.  Lips Sealed

Indeed. In other words, Latin used to be the vernacular.
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« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2013, 12:25:10 AM »

dear username, please post a link and tell me what page to start reading (sorry, i can't bear to wade through 15 pages of 50 posts each...)
the little comments so far are very useful.

for what it's worth, i think the main (?only) good thing about vatican 2 was changing the mass into a language the people speak.
saying you are 'traditionalist', yet insisting 99% people worship in a foreign language (latin) seems to me to be missing the point of all the church missionaries of the first 1,000 years!

Not to be a pain, but Latin was used for hundreds of years in much of Western Europe, and over the years, mutated into the Romance languages. (French, Spanish, Italian, etc.) So, there was a time when it was not too far removed from the public who heard the Mass. Also, they used to teach Latin in Catholic school, at least in North America. That's all I wanted to throw in. I'll go back in the box now.  Lips Sealed

Indeed. In other words, Latin used to be the vernacular.

I saw a conversation about this topic just today on Facebook.

Really it seems that some of the Eastern churches are little different - using archaic, sometimes unintelligible to the layperson, languages for liturgy.
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« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2013, 12:30:49 AM »

dear username, please post a link and tell me what page to start reading (sorry, i can't bear to wade through 15 pages of 50 posts each...)
the little comments so far are very useful.

for what it's worth, i think the main (?only) good thing about vatican 2 was changing the mass into a language the people speak.
saying you are 'traditionalist', yet insisting 99% people worship in a foreign language (latin) seems to me to be missing the point of all the church missionaries of the first 1,000 years!

Not to be a pain, but Latin was used for hundreds of years in much of Western Europe, and over the years, mutated into the Romance languages. (French, Spanish, Italian, etc.) So, there was a time when it was not too far removed from the public who heard the Mass. Also, they used to teach Latin in Catholic school, at least in North America. That's all I wanted to throw in. I'll go back in the box now.  Lips Sealed

Latin was fine when they were confined to Western Europe.  But do you expect the Asians and Africans to learn a totally foreign language?  At least South Americans adopted Spanish (and Portugese for Brazil) which are those Romance Languages.  There is already a lot to learn about the faith as it is, why complicate it further with having people learn a new language?

Well, true. Smiley It is better to have the language be something that is directly useful, so people can understand what they hear and do. I still keep a few Latin books for fun, though. Smiley
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« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2013, 09:08:01 AM »

Opus Dei is not the same as SSPX- Opus Dei is a personal prelature in union with Rome. SSPX is a heretical schismatic group that believes the Pauline Mass is invalid, even though it's actually closer to any one of the Eastern Rite Liturgies. (Ektenia of the Faithful/General Intercessions, Bringing of Gifts/Great Entrance, procession with Gospel, clear Epiclesis, etc.)

Okay, perhaps you can take a break from comments on the SSPX from now on--at least until you do a simple Google search to see that the SSPX does not consider the Pauline Mass to be invalid. In fact, the local SSPX chapel in my hometown has a priest who was ordained according to the new rite before joining them, and he was not re-ordained. A laywoman complained to the pastor about that, and the pastor ordered her to receive communion from that particular priest or she couldn't receive communion at all.

Believing the new Mass to have been a terrible idea (something that I also hold to) and considering it invalid are two completely different things.

As for your accusations of heresy and schism, prove them or withdraw them.

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« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2013, 09:13:19 AM »

As for the original topic, here are some of Pope Benedict's watershed moments:

-visit to the Phanar in 2006

-Summorum Pontificum

-his Regensburg speech on faith and reason

-his speech at Westminster Hall in London

-his abdication

-his overhauling of bishops' appointments

-his Jesus of Nazareth trilogy

-his reforms of the Legionaries of Christ and the Leadership Conference of Women Religious

-his overseeing of corrected vernacular translations of the Mass

-his returning papal liturgies to being the model they used to be: leading the liturgical restoration by example

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« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2013, 09:20:19 AM »

Opus Dei is not the same as SSPX- Opus Dei is a personal prelature in union with Rome. SSPX is a heretical schismatic group that believes the Pauline Mass is invalid, even though it's actually closer to any one of the Eastern Rite Liturgies. (Ektenia of the Faithful/General Intercessions, Bringing of Gifts/Great Entrance, procession with Gospel, clear Epiclesis, etc.)

Okay, perhaps you can take a break from comments on the SSPX from now on--at least until you do a simple Google search to see that the SSPX does not consider the Pauline Mass to be invalid. In fact, the local SSPX chapel in my hometown has a priest who was ordained according to the new rite before joining them, and he was not re-ordained. A laywoman complained to the pastor about that, and the pastor ordered her to receive communion from that particular priest or she couldn't receive communion at all.

Believing the new Mass to have been a terrible idea (something that I also hold to) and considering it invalid are two completely different things.

As for your accusations of heresy and schism, prove them or withdraw them.



Forgive me- all my research consisted only of talking to people who are actually part of the SSPX in my area or on the internet. And as for the internet- the internet is not reliable either, because it seems just about everyone tries their hardest to paint every new rite since Vatican II invalid. Sorry, but that's been my experience with the SSPX- yours may have been different, since you are a Traditional Catholic. As for schism- They're certainly not in union with Rome yet, so they must be separated from Rome. As for heresy- denying the validity of a properly promulgated liturgy of the Church IS heretical. Thinking any liturgy which has Christ present upon the altar as a "terrible idea" seems absurd to me.
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« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2013, 11:28:43 AM »

SSPX is a heretical schismatic group that believes the Pauline Mass is invalid,

I'm not as knowledgeble about the SSPX as lubeltri, but I too recognize that this ^^ is a load of <insert picture of baloney>.
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« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2013, 12:09:54 PM »

SSPX is a heretical schismatic group that believes the Pauline Mass is invalid,

I'm not as knowledgeble about the SSPX as lubeltri, but I too recognize that this ^^ is a load of <insert picture of baloney>.

There  Grin!
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« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2013, 01:07:30 PM »

As for the original topic, here are some of Pope Benedict's watershed moments:

-visit to the Phanar in 2006

-Summorum Pontificum

-his Regensburg speech on faith and reason

-his speech at Westminster Hall in London

-his abdication

-his overhauling of bishops' appointments

-his Jesus of Nazareth trilogy

-his reforms of the Legionaries of Christ and the Leadership Conference of Women Religious

-his overseeing of corrected vernacular translations of the Mass

-his returning papal liturgies to being the model they used to be: leading the liturgical restoration by example



Anglicanorum coetibus is another.
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« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2013, 05:02:30 PM »

I agree with what others have said here. Most of the SSPXers with whom I have discussed the new mass, all agree that it is still a valid mass. There are probably a few looney toones out there who think otherwise, but for the most part, SSPXers really just want a return to reverence and orthodoxy.
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« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2013, 06:09:49 PM »

Then why don't they have a problem with the priests, rather than the mass itself? The actual liturgy seems more traditional, and has more byzantine elements, than the Tridentine Mass- including an explicit epiclesis. I've been to a Tridentine Mass- and though I studied two years of Latin, it's difficult for me to connect to what being said when it's in a language that is certainly not my first. Even though I don't know it as well, I would prefer to muddle my way through following loudly chanted and clearly enunciated Greek than inaudibly muttered Latin. I know why the SSPX has their opinion- and I tend to agree with it somewhat on the subject of bad liturgy. However, I don't regard the liturgy itself as a mistake as much as the general attitude towards it after the Second Vatican Council. For example, in the Roman Catholic Cathedral here in Baton Rouge, the church is devoid of stauary (or even icons), is barely decorated, there's no visible tabernacle, and is painted an unsightly beige colour. Seriously, no tabernacle! For goodness sakes, the rubrics do say in a "prominent" place, not tucked away in some tiny back chapel. And they certainly require at least candles to be on the altar! But I'm ranting...
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« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2013, 06:32:03 PM »

Then why don't they have a problem with the priests, rather than the mass itself? The actual liturgy seems more traditional, and has more byzantine elements, than the Tridentine Mass- including an explicit epiclesis. I've been to a Tridentine Mass- and though I studied two years of Latin, it's difficult for me to connect to what being said when it's in a language that is certainly not my first. Even though I don't know it as well, I would prefer to muddle my way through following loudly chanted and clearly enunciated Greek than inaudibly muttered Latin. I know why the SSPX has their opinion- and I tend to agree with it somewhat on the subject of bad liturgy. However, I don't regard the liturgy itself as a mistake as much as the general attitude towards it after the Second Vatican Council. For example, in the Roman Catholic Cathedral here in Baton Rouge, the church is devoid of stauary (or even icons), is barely decorated, there's no visible tabernacle, and is painted an unsightly beige colour. Seriously, no tabernacle! For goodness sakes, the rubrics do say in a "prominent" place, not tucked away in some tiny back chapel. And they certainly require at least candles to be on the altar! But I'm ranting...

Almost a Protestantizing of the Roman Catholic Naves and Altar......A sanitized area of worship much like a Congregationalist meeting hall...
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« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2013, 06:42:46 PM »

I know, and I find it ridiculous. The irony? You go to New Orleans, and it's a perfect Cathedral- St. Louis. In fact, you go to just about any parish church besides the Baton Rouge cathedral, including the Roman Catholic one I attend unless I can make my way to New orleans for Divine Liturgy, and the priests at least follow the rubrics. There are exceptions, of course- but most of that is in the more liberal parishes. Oh, some priests just shouldn't have power over a decorating commitee at all! As a grizzled Latin-Rite priest once told me, "There's Traditional, there's Liberal, and there's just poor taste."
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« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2013, 06:44:36 PM »

SSPX is a heretical schismatic group that believes the Pauline Mass is invalid,

I'm not as knowledgeble about the SSPX as lubeltri, but I too recognize that this ^^ is a load of <insert picture of baloney>.

There  Grin!

You are making me so hungry for a baloney sandwich. And it is FRIDAY.

I appreciate Pope Benedict for helping to restore some sanity back in the Liturgy.
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« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2013, 08:39:14 PM »

You are making me so hungry for a baloney sandwich. And it is FRIDAY.

I appreciate Pope Benedict for helping to restore some sanity back in the Liturgy.

Next Friday you are free to have a baloney sandwich.
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« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2013, 09:28:03 PM »

Then why don't they have a problem with the priests, rather than the mass itself? The actual liturgy seems more traditional, and has more byzantine elements, than the Tridentine Mass- including an explicit epiclesis. I've been to a Tridentine Mass- and though I studied two years of Latin, it's difficult for me to connect to what being said when it's in a language that is certainly not my first. Even though I don't know it as well, I would prefer to muddle my way through following loudly chanted and clearly enunciated Greek than inaudibly muttered Latin. I know why the SSPX has their opinion- and I tend to agree with it somewhat on the subject of bad liturgy. However, I don't regard the liturgy itself as a mistake as much as the general attitude towards it after the Second Vatican Council. For example, in the Roman Catholic Cathedral here in Baton Rouge, the church is devoid of stauary (or even icons), is barely decorated, there's no visible tabernacle, and is painted an unsightly beige colour. Seriously, no tabernacle! For goodness sakes, the rubrics do say in a "prominent" place, not tucked away in some tiny back chapel. And they certainly require at least candles to be on the altar! But I'm ranting...
They have a problem with the mass because they feel it is just a watered down version of the TLM. Personally, I have no problem with the NO, as long as it is celebrated reverently, with sacred music.
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« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2013, 10:44:05 PM »

Then why don't they have a problem with the priests, rather than the mass itself? The actual liturgy seems more traditional, and has more byzantine elements, than the Tridentine Mass- including an explicit epiclesis. I've been to a Tridentine Mass- and though I studied two years of Latin, it's difficult for me to connect to what being said when it's in a language that is certainly not my first. Even though I don't know it as well, I would prefer to muddle my way through following loudly chanted and clearly enunciated Greek than inaudibly muttered Latin. I know why the SSPX has their opinion- and I tend to agree with it somewhat on the subject of bad liturgy. However, I don't regard the liturgy itself as a mistake as much as the general attitude towards it after the Second Vatican Council. For example, in the Roman Catholic Cathedral here in Baton Rouge, the church is devoid of stauary (or even icons), is barely decorated, there's no visible tabernacle, and is painted an unsightly beige colour. Seriously, no tabernacle! For goodness sakes, the rubrics do say in a "prominent" place, not tucked away in some tiny back chapel. And they certainly require at least candles to be on the altar! But I'm ranting...
They have a problem with the mass because they feel it is just a watered down version of the TLM. Personally, I have no problem with the NO, as long as it is celebrated reverently, with sacred music.

Sadly, it's the "celebrated reverently", and the especially "with sacred music" that is commonly ignored. I'm the assistant cantor at one local Latin parish, and a chorister at another- I know sacred music has gone down the tubes- thank you, Marty Haugen. If I am told to sing "On Eagle's Wings" at one more Requiem Mass, I'm going to snap!
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« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2013, 12:54:37 PM »

Then why don't they have a problem with the priests, rather than the mass itself? The actual liturgy seems more traditional, and has more byzantine elements, than the Tridentine Mass- including an explicit epiclesis. I've been to a Tridentine Mass- and though I studied two years of Latin, it's difficult for me to connect to what being said when it's in a language that is certainly not my first. Even though I don't know it as well, I would prefer to muddle my way through following loudly chanted and clearly enunciated Greek than inaudibly muttered Latin. I know why the SSPX has their opinion- and I tend to agree with it somewhat on the subject of bad liturgy. However, I don't regard the liturgy itself as a mistake as much as the general attitude towards it after the Second Vatican Council. For example, in the Roman Catholic Cathedral here in Baton Rouge, the church is devoid of stauary (or even icons), is barely decorated, there's no visible tabernacle, and is painted an unsightly beige colour. Seriously, no tabernacle! For goodness sakes, the rubrics do say in a "prominent" place, not tucked away in some tiny back chapel. And they certainly require at least candles to be on the altar! But I'm ranting...
They have a problem with the mass because they feel it is just a watered down version of the TLM. Personally, I have no problem with the NO, as long as it is celebrated reverently, with sacred music.

Sadly, it's the "celebrated reverently", and the especially "with sacred music" that is commonly ignored. I'm the assistant cantor at one local Latin parish, and a chorister at another- I know sacred music has gone down the tubes- thank you, Marty Haugen. If I am told to sing "On Eagle's Wings" at one more Requiem Mass, I'm going to snap!

Agreed. I really hope the next Pope has the courage to continue Pope Benedict's reform of the Roman liturgy.
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« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2013, 07:07:30 PM »

Sadly, it's the "celebrated reverently", and the especially "with sacred music" that is commonly ignored. I'm the assistant cantor at one local Latin parish, and a chorister at another- I know sacred music has gone down the tubes- thank you, Marty Haugen. If I am told to sing "On Eagle's Wings" at one more Requiem Mass, I'm going to snap!

Agreed. I really hope the next Pope has the courage to continue Pope Benedict's reform of the Roman liturgy.

Faith of our Fathers, and A Mighty Fortress is Our Lord did it for me many years ago......
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« Reply #66 on: February 23, 2013, 08:03:03 PM »

I agree with what others have said here. Most of the SSPXers with whom I have discussed the new mass, all agree that it is still a valid mass. There are probably a few looney toones out there who think otherwise, but for the most part, SSPXers really just want a return to reverence and orthodoxy.

Really?  I know of an actual event from last year where a diocesan seminar on the Latin Mass was held, and the two local SSPX priest came over to distribute pamphlets that call the Pauline Mass and everything in the Roman Catholic Church post Vatican II as invalid.

I personally know an ultra-trad SSPX member whom me and another friend of his were guiding him towards the Eastern Catholic Church.  Eventually he told me that ECs are nothing more than the epitome of the Ecumenist problem of the Catholic Church where the Orthodox who should become Roman Catholics are allowed to keep their rites and be in communion with Rome.  And he'll never associate himself with the Orthodox who are schismatics and are going to hell for not being in communion with Rome.
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« Reply #67 on: February 23, 2013, 08:26:19 PM »

I agree with what others have said here. Most of the SSPXers with whom I have discussed the new mass, all agree that it is still a valid mass. There are probably a few looney toones out there who think otherwise, but for the most part, SSPXers really just want a return to reverence and orthodoxy.

Really?  I know of an actual event from last year where a diocesan seminar on the Latin Mass was held, and the two local SSPX priest came over to distribute pamphlets that call the Pauline Mass and everything in the Roman Catholic Church post Vatican II as invalid.

I personally know an ultra-trad SSPX member whom me and another friend of his were guiding him towards the Eastern Catholic Church.  Eventually he told me that ECs are nothing more than the epitome of the Ecumenist problem of the Catholic Church where the Orthodox who should become Roman Catholics are allowed to keep their rites and be in communion with Rome.  And he'll never associate himself with the Orthodox who are schismatics and are going to hell for not being in communion with Rome.

I suppose he's of the opinion that the Tridentine Roman Rite is the best and only liturgy that should be celebrated, calling others heretical or invalid? See, I told you people these kind of traddies existed!
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« Reply #68 on: February 23, 2013, 08:29:04 PM »

Eventually he told me that ECs are nothing more than the epitome of the Ecumenist problem of the Catholic Church where the Orthodox who should become Roman Catholics are allowed to keep their rites and be in communion with Rome.  

That's also my definition of ecumenism: Orthodox coming into communion with Rome while keeping their rites. Wink
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« Reply #69 on: February 23, 2013, 08:34:02 PM »

And speaking as an Eastern Catholic, letting Orthodox coming into Rome keep their rites is the best idea the Latins have had on the subject- I mean, otherwise the ancient rites would only be practiced by the Orthodox, and completely cut off any Eastern influences within the Church. We're unfortunately neither fish nor fowl in the Church, sometimes- the ultra traditionalist Latins want us to adopt their rite and are suspicious of us being heretics, while the Orthodox view us schismatics and, at worst, as a woman from the Genuine Orthodox Church once told me, "A traitor to Christ." O course that's not the general consensus, but it is what I've experienced since changing rites from Roman to Byzantine.
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« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2013, 08:44:50 PM »

I suppose he's of the opinion that the Tridentine Roman Rite is the best and only liturgy that should be celebrated, calling others heretical or invalid? See, I told you people these kind of traddies existed!

Yup.

And for the brief moment he had a flirtation with Orthodoxy, he wanted to join the Old Believers.  So, go figure the type of mind this man has.
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« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2013, 09:31:26 PM »

Eventually he told me that ECs are nothing more than the epitome of the Ecumenist problem of the Catholic Church where the Orthodox who should become Roman Catholics are allowed to keep their rites and be in communion with Rome. 

That's also my definition of ecumenism: Orthodox coming into communion with Rome while keeping their rites. Wink

P.S. I'm assuming that it was clear that I was being facetious there.

while the Orthodox view us schismatics and, at worst, as a woman from the Genuine Orthodox Church once told me, "A traitor to Christ."

Well, I've never bought into the idea that converting from one church or denomination to another constitutes apostasy. But what's more, your friend/acquaintance and a lot of other Orthodox completely miss the fact that most Eastern Catholics are cradle Catholic, not ex-Orthodox.
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« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2013, 09:45:10 PM »

Eventually he told me that ECs are nothing more than the epitome of the Ecumenist problem of the Catholic Church where the Orthodox who should become Roman Catholics are allowed to keep their rites and be in communion with Rome. 

That's also my definition of ecumenism: Orthodox coming into communion with Rome while keeping their rites. Wink

P.S. I'm assuming that it was clear that I was being facetious there.

while the Orthodox view us schismatics and, at worst, as a woman from the Genuine Orthodox Church once told me, "A traitor to Christ."

Well, I've never bought into the idea that converting from one church or denomination to another constitutes apostasy. But what's more, your friend/acquaintance and a lot of other Orthodox completely miss the fact that most Eastern Catholics are cradle Catholic, not ex-Orthodox.

Including myself, as a cradle Catholic. However, this particular acquaintance really didn't care when I tried to explained tha I was a born Catholic, and went into a rant about how the New Calendarist Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Catholics, Roman Catholics, and everyone else but her own church were going to burn. Note she was part of the "Genuine Orthodox Church in America," and anything with genuine in the name tends to be uncanonical.
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« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2013, 09:57:59 PM »

And speaking as an Eastern Catholic, letting Orthodox coming into Rome keep their rites is the best idea the Latins have had on the subject- I mean, otherwise the ancient rites would only be practiced by the Orthodox, and completely cut off any Eastern influences within the Church. We're unfortunately neither fish nor fowl in the Church, sometimes- the ultra traditionalist Latins want us to adopt their rite and are suspicious of us being heretics, while the Orthodox view us schismatics and, at worst, as a woman from the Genuine Orthodox Church once told me, "A traitor to Christ." O course that's not the general consensus, but it is what I've experienced since changing rites from Roman to Byzantine.

Definitely there are Orthodox out there who see ECs as abominations.  It is really hard being EC.  I said once that being EC is "being both Catholic and Orthodox, and neither at the same time."

I also have my own story about bad treatment by my previous RC parish (called me a "non-practicing Catholic" after I became EC).  Ignorance and hate all around.
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« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2013, 10:11:46 PM »

And speaking as an Eastern Catholic, letting Orthodox coming into Rome keep their rites is the best idea the Latins have had on the subject- I mean, otherwise the ancient rites would only be practiced by the Orthodox, and completely cut off any Eastern influences within the Church. We're unfortunately neither fish nor fowl in the Church, sometimes- the ultra traditionalist Latins want us to adopt their rite and are suspicious of us being heretics, while the Orthodox view us schismatics and, at worst, as a woman from the Genuine Orthodox Church once told me, "A traitor to Christ." O course that's not the general consensus, but it is what I've experienced since changing rites from Roman to Byzantine.

Definitely there are Orthodox out there who see ECs as abominations.  It is really hard being EC.  I said once that being EC is "being both Catholic and Orthodox, and neither at the same time."

I also have my own story about bad treatment by my previous RC parish (called me a "non-practicing Catholic" after I became EC).  Ignorance and hate all around.

And that statement is very true. My old RC parish didn't do that- mostly because I still attend it somewhat, since my Byzantine parish is an hour and a half away. And because I'm one of the only three members of their choir. However, I had to explain to my old priest that I was not converting to Orthodoxy, which was surprising because I didn't even know he knew Orthodoxy existed. However, when explaining why I make the sign of the cross backwards and bow with my hand touching the ground before the tabernacle in Roman Catholics churches while on holiday gets annoying.
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« Reply #75 on: February 25, 2013, 11:13:15 AM »

And speaking as an Eastern Catholic, letting Orthodox coming into Rome keep their rites is the best idea the Latins have had on the subject- I mean, otherwise the ancient rites would only be practiced by the Orthodox, and completely cut off any Eastern influences within the Church. We're unfortunately neither fish nor fowl in the Church, sometimes- the ultra traditionalist Latins want us to adopt their rite and are suspicious of us being heretics, while the Orthodox view us schismatics and, at worst, as a woman from the Genuine Orthodox Church once told me, "A traitor to Christ." O course that's not the general consensus, but it is what I've experienced since changing rites from Roman to Byzantine.

Definitely there are Orthodox out there who see ECs as abominations.  It is really hard being EC.  I said once that being EC is "being both Catholic and Orthodox, and neither at the same time."

I also have my own story about bad treatment by my previous RC parish (called me a "non-practicing Catholic" after I became EC).  Ignorance and hate all around.

And that statement is very true. My old RC parish didn't do that- mostly because I still attend it somewhat, since my Byzantine parish is an hour and a half away. And because I'm one of the only three members of their choir. However, I had to explain to my old priest that I was not converting to Orthodoxy, which was surprising because I didn't even know he knew Orthodoxy existed. However, when explaining why I make the sign of the cross backwards and bow with my hand touching the ground before the tabernacle in Roman Catholics churches while on holiday gets annoying.

No one at the RC parish we attend has ever questioned our odd behavior  Grin.  Maybe they don't notice or maybe they don't care.  Dunno.  Hey, you could look at it as an opportunity to more fully and deeply catechize your Catholic brothers and sisters rather than as an onerous task  Wink.
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« Reply #76 on: February 25, 2013, 11:45:52 AM »

I agree with what others have said here. Most of the SSPXers with whom I have discussed the new mass, all agree that it is still a valid mass. There are probably a few looney toones out there who think otherwise, but for the most part, SSPXers really just want a return to reverence and orthodoxy.

Really?  I know of an actual event from last year where a diocesan seminar on the Latin Mass was held, and the two local SSPX priest came over to distribute pamphlets that call the Pauline Mass and everything in the Roman Catholic Church post Vatican II as invalid.

I personally know an ultra-trad SSPX member whom me and another friend of his were guiding him towards the Eastern Catholic Church.  Eventually he told me that ECs are nothing more than the epitome of the Ecumenist problem of the Catholic Church where the Orthodox who should become Roman Catholics are allowed to keep their rites and be in communion with Rome.  And he'll never associate himself with the Orthodox who are schismatics and are going to hell for not being in communion with Rome.
Did he criticize the new mass, or call it invalid? Can you cite a passage in which these pamphlets called the new mass invalid?
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