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Author Topic: Statues v. Icons  (Read 7409 times) Average Rating: 0
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Kizzy
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« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2005, 11:42:02 PM »

Statues are not windows into heavan but give physical form to what they depict. In contrast, icons do not give form to what they depict because it is just painted on and is only in two dimensions. When you pray to a statue you are praying to an image that has form, that is an object. Can you make a statue into a window? Can you take glass, heat it, and then mould it into a 3D image and be a window? You would not be able to see at all clear the other side b/c the light waves would bend as they hit a surface that is not even. Therefore, your attention is on this statue itself b/c you can not see beyond it.
Roman, in the days of the early church all paintings were two dimensional...had been that way since the Egyptians, maybe even before... While we look at them now as 'just an image' without form... that is how all paintings were then... Catholics don't pray to a statue... they kneel, bow their head, and pray for assistance from the saint it represents.
I have been in RC churches with both statues and icons, they are both used the same way.. . there are some Christian faiths who look at icons as you are looking at statues.. And some people think kissing an icon is the epitome of image worship... but we say otherwise....they see any representation as image worship.. whether 2 or 3 dimensional... And if you look at the fans carried in church, many have 3 D icon reliefs on them... they are not 2 dimensional engravings of icons.... so , I say, let us not judge what the Catholics use to pray... unless we can see inside their hearts and spirits... which we can't...
In Xc, Kizzy

 



 

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In XC, Kizzy
Roman
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« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2005, 12:13:05 AM »

Ancient Egyptians had frescos on walls. Although they depicted gods and goddesses on walls these were not used as form of worship. The Egyptians were clever in science and new that an image on wall was 2D and so to bring life to another lifeless scene they had incantations and spells to go along with images so that they might come alive when read. They had many statues though that they used to to worshipp b/c they believe since a statue 3D then a spirit could dwell in it. They knew logically that a spirit could not dwell in a 2D environment. I have also been in a RC church and what I see is people praying to stone. Can you honestly believe that when one has a large size statue of an entity that not even once one does not fall into the trap of actually praying to the stone itself? Try it for yourself many times...kneel before a statue...prostrate yourself b/f a religious statue. Does it truly feel as though you are not bowing before the actual statue but what it depicts?
I do not judge what RC do but only speak what the Great God has taught us and our Holy Fathers. That is itself Orthodoxy.

Also those Fans used at Orthodox Churches are not statues since they are images of six-winged angels attached to a flat surface. Inorder for an object to be 3D it must have surface area that reaches out in all 3 planes of space.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2005, 01:07:08 AM by Roman » Logged
Veniamin
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« Reply #47 on: April 08, 2005, 12:16:06 AM »

And when people walk into an Orthodox church, what they seem to see is people praying to and kissing pictures, and strangely drawn ones at that.  If you don't know what the people are thinking and feeling when praying, at least ask them what they're doing rather than telling them what they are.
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« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2005, 12:31:37 AM »

My ancestors have worshiped statues far longer then Roman Catholics have used statues in their churches. I know what people feel when they pray to statues and how decieving it is. The devil is much more clever then you think and it so easy and simple for a demon to trick you into thinking that what you do is ok. After all he has been doing it for centuries. I have learnt from the mistakes of the ancient greeks and romans and I also do not make excuses when God's laws are clear. If you are Orthodox then you have probably heard of Holy Fathers who preached against statues. You may make exuses before me but I ask you not to make such exuses before the Lord of Hosts for your own sakes. Did not this same God become angry with the Jews for making a statue while Moses was recieving the Ten Commandments on the Montaint? The Laws are there and clear, Holy Fathers and Prophets have taught us not to use statues. What more do you wish? I have not spoken my own words but used their words and the words of our Lord although unworthy as I am. I only speak the truth and want nothing but the truth. If you can give me one example where either the Lord or His Mother or His Orthodox Saints that have given aleast once a blessing to pray and use statues for veneration then I accept as truth. However no one has been able to this and therefore I treasure what the Holy Fathers out of old have taught us. Does not the Orthodox Church tell us to do so and that otherwise you have left the path? Friends, it only takes one small step off the right path to fall into heresy and darkness.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2005, 12:35:08 AM by Roman » Logged
Veniamin
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« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2005, 12:34:48 AM »

My ancestors have worshiped statues far longer then Roman Catholics have used statues in their churches. I know what people feel when they pray to statues and how decieving it is. The devil is much more clever then you think and it so easy and simple for a demon to trick you into thinking that what you do is ok. After all he has been doing it for centuries. I have learnt from the mistakes of the ancient greeks and romans and I also do not make excuses when God's laws are clear. If you are Orthodox then you have probably heard of Holy Fathers who preached against statues. You may make exuses before me but I ask you not to make such exuses before the Lord Hosts for your own sakes. The Laws are there and clear, Holy Fathers and Prophets have taught us not to use statues. What more do you wish? I have not spoken my own words but used their words and the words of our Lord although unworthy as I am. I only speak the truth and want nothing but the truth. If you can give me one example where either the Lord or His Mother or His Orthodox Saints that have given aleast once a blessing to pray and use statues for veneration then I accept as truth. However no one has been able to this and therefore I treasure what the Holy Fathers out of old have taught us. Does not the Orthodox Church tell us to do so and that otherwise you have left the path? Friends, it only takes one small step off the right path to fall into heresy and darkness.

Well, thank you very much for worrying about a potential speck in my eye.  Now that you've taken care of that, I'll let you take care of the plank in your own, mmkay?
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« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2005, 12:41:19 AM »

I have not judge you at all but only warned you and yet you judge me. I have only spoken what the Apostles have given to us why then do you accuse me of having a beam in my eye? Have I done wrong in speaking of the Laws of the Lord. No one has yet to give me one example of any such blessing made by  Holy Fathers and saints to show that I error in my logic. Why have you then judge me? Woe is me if I ever attempted to judge you as only God should.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2005, 12:42:49 AM by Roman » Logged
Landon77
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« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2005, 12:42:49 AM »

Statues are not windows into heavan but give physical form to what they depict. In contrast, icons do not give form to what they depict because it is just painted on and is only in two dimensions. When you pray to a statue you are praying to an image that has form, that is  an object. Can you make a statue into a window? Can you take glass, heat it, and then mould it into a 3D image and be a window? You would not be able to see at all clear the other side b/c the light waves would bend as they hit a surface that is not even. Therefore, your attention is on this statue itself b/c you can not see beyond it.


  Did it hurt when you pulled that out?
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"How stands your mighty god? My God is stronger than he."  -St. Boniface
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« Reply #52 on: April 08, 2005, 12:47:46 AM »

It is clear to me that you do not  take me cordially which is fine. I am here for dialogue of Theological issues and not speak as children when they fight. You again mock me when you have not proven to me that I error by the words of our most Holy God and His Saints.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2005, 12:48:08 AM by Roman » Logged
Landon77
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« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2005, 12:53:21 AM »

  Things are only spoken about when there is a need to speak about them.  I don't know of any saints that spoke for statues, but I don't know of any that spoke against them either.  And I'm thinking statues have been around from about the begining of the church.  Others have already told you about the reliefs, but you refuse to accept it.  I think you're just looking for an argument.
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« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2005, 01:03:26 AM »

I only wish to defend a time-honoured tradition that started with the Hebrews in the Old Testment period. The early church did not have statues especially during the time of the Apostles since they forbade them. I know that archeology has found statues but you do not know how they were used. The Byzantines wore icons as common jewellry in the form of braclets, rings and necklaces. Even today there is a trend amoung the fashion elite in Athens to wear prayer beads as fashionable bracelets but that does not make it right. Constantiple had many statues, alot of them were of the Olympian Gods out in their parks and gardens but they did not pray to them. If there has been no Holy Father that you know of that has not blessed statues but only condemn them then why do you accuse me of saying that I refuse to accept something for which its usage has been condemned by the Orthodox Church?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2005, 01:57:08 AM by Roman » Logged
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