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Author Topic: The Pope to resign?!?! / Pope Benedict XVI resigns / Pope set to resign on Feb. 28th  (Read 15365 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #405 on: February 15, 2013, 05:13:26 PM »

"True Catholics always pull out early." -Pope Benedict XVI

 police

If you mean this as a reference to NFP, then you don't understand NFP at all. Just saying.
I think coitus interruptus is a sin, in Catholicism.

Exactly.

I believe it was just a joke.

I'm quite certain it was (which is why I didn't take him to task putting words in the pope's mouth) as suggested by the "police" but I still wanted to set the record straight.

Oh, I'm pretty sure he meant it as a joke.  Some jokes, however, are more tasteful than others.  This one was in particularly bad taste, imho.  That's why I called him on it.

Thanks for the clarification. I was sitting thinking I had already done that.   Lips Sealed  Cool
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« Reply #406 on: February 15, 2013, 05:15:11 PM »

"True Catholics always pull out early." -Pope Benedict XVI

 police

If you mean this as a reference to NFP, then you don't understand NFP at all. Just saying.
I think coitus interruptus is a sin, in Catholicism.

Exactly.

I believe it was just a joke.

I'm quite certain it was (which is why I didn't take him to task putting words in the pope's mouth) as suggested by the "police" but I still wanted to set the record straight.

Oh, I'm pretty sure he meant it as a joke.  Some jokes, however, are more tasteful than others.  This one was in particularly bad taste, imho.  That's why I called him on it.

Thanks for the clarification. I was sitting thinking I had already done that.   Lips Sealed  Cool

You did, and rightly so, too.  I just wanted to add to it.  You know, for emphasis.
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« Reply #407 on: February 15, 2013, 05:42:15 PM »

Quote
Benedict XVI, who as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was asked on Bavarian television in 1997 if the Holy Spirit is responsible for who gets elected. This was his response:

I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope. ... I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit's role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined.

Then the clincher:

There are too many contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit obviously would not have picked!

Doesn't this disprove infallibility?
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« Reply #408 on: February 15, 2013, 05:43:53 PM »

Quote
Benedict XVI, who as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was asked on Bavarian television in 1997 if the Holy Spirit is responsible for who gets elected. This was his response:

I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope. ... I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit's role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined.

Then the clincher:

There are too many contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit obviously would not have picked!

Doesn't this disprove infallibility?
Not necessarily. It just means that infallibility works in mysterious ways. Smiley
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« Reply #409 on: February 15, 2013, 05:44:13 PM »

Quote
Benedict XVI, who as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was asked on Bavarian television in 1997 if the Holy Spirit is responsible for who gets elected. This was his response:

I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope. ... I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit's role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined.

Then the clincher:

There are too many contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit obviously would not have picked!

Doesn't this disprove infallibility?

No, because the "bad popes" did not make an infallible declaration and, as such, the Holy Spirit offered assurance that the Church was not totally ruined.

(note, i dont believe this, but this is the argument)
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« Reply #410 on: February 15, 2013, 05:45:21 PM »

Quote
Benedict XVI, who as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was asked on Bavarian television in 1997 if the Holy Spirit is responsible for who gets elected. This was his response:

I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope. ... I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit's role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined.

Then the clincher:

There are too many contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit obviously would not have picked!

Doesn't this disprove infallibility?

No, because the "bad popes" did not make an infallible declaration and, as such, the Holy Spirit offered assurance that the Church was not totally ruined.


Beat me to it.
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« Reply #411 on: February 15, 2013, 05:52:00 PM »

Quote
Benedict XVI, who as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was asked on Bavarian television in 1997 if the Holy Spirit is responsible for who gets elected. This was his response:

I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope. ... I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit's role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined.

Then the clincher:

There are too many contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit obviously would not have picked!

Doesn't this disprove infallibility?

No, because the "bad popes" did not make an infallible declaration and, as such, the Holy Spirit offered assurance that the Church was not totally ruined.
Yeah, but is there agreement regarding which particular papal statements are definitely infallible? Everyone agrees on the infallibility of the IC and the Assumption. But I seem to recall many theologians questioning the infallibility of JPII's teachings on a male-only priesthood.
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« Reply #412 on: February 15, 2013, 06:36:40 PM »

Quote
Benedict XVI, who as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was asked on Bavarian television in 1997 if the Holy Spirit is responsible for who gets elected. This was his response:

I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope. ... I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit's role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined.

Then the clincher:

There are too many contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit obviously would not have picked!

Doesn't this disprove infallibility?

No, because the "bad popes" did not make an infallible declaration and, as such, the Holy Spirit offered assurance that the Church was not totally ruined.
Yeah, but is there agreement regarding which particular papal statements are definitely infallible? Everyone agrees on the infallibility of the IC and the Assumption. But I seem to recall many theologians questioning the infallibility of JPII's teachings on a male-only priesthood.

Who is "everyone"?

P.S. It's a tad odd that your examples only go back to the 19th century.
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« Reply #413 on: February 15, 2013, 06:57:20 PM »

So the Holy Spirit is always with the Church but is not always with the Pope who is the visible head of the Church on earth as per RC teaching?
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« Reply #414 on: February 15, 2013, 10:30:57 PM »

Yeah, but is there agreement regarding which particular papal statements are definitely infallible? Everyone agrees on the infallibility of the IC and the Assumption. But I seem to recall many theologians questioning the infallibility of JPII's teachings on a male-only priesthood.

Who is "everyone"?

P.S. It's a tad odd that your examples only go back to the 19th century.

Vatican I was in the 19th century after all. Wink
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« Reply #415 on: February 15, 2013, 10:39:49 PM »

Yeah, but is there agreement regarding which particular papal statements are definitely infallible? Everyone agrees on the infallibility of the IC and the Assumption. But I seem to recall many theologians questioning the infallibility of JPII's teachings on a male-only priesthood.

Who is "everyone"?

P.S. It's a tad odd that your examples only go back to the 19th century.

Vatican I was in the 19th century after all. Wink

Yes, and the declaration of Papal Infallibility and Papal Supremacy at the final council of Vatican I was greeted by heavenly lightning as was Pope Benedict XVI's resignation.

For some strange reason, Catholics apparently consider the lightning strikes on St. Peter's Dome at the conclusion of Vatican I and at Pope Benedict XVI's resignation to be a sign of Divine approval, but if a person were to be struck dead by lightning, then that would be considered Divine disapproval.
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« Reply #416 on: February 16, 2013, 12:17:52 AM »

"True Catholics always pull out early." -Pope Benedict XVI

 police

If you mean this as a reference to NFP, then you don't understand NFP at all. Just saying.
I think coitus interruptus is a sin, in Catholicism.

Exactly.

I believe it was just a joke.

I'm quite certain it was (which is why I didn't take him to task putting words in the pope's mouth) as suggested by the "police" but I still wanted to set the record straight.

Oh, I'm pretty sure he meant it as a joke.  Some jokes, however, are more tasteful than others.  This one was in particularly bad taste, imho.  That's why I called him on it.

It's not in bad taste.

It's just plain bad.  Like really bad.  Like someone should be pulling him off stage with a big hook bad.
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« Reply #417 on: February 16, 2013, 12:55:34 AM »

Fr. Johannes L. Jacobse: An Orthodox Priest Reflects on the Retirement of Pope Benedict XVI
http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=49721
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« Reply #418 on: February 18, 2013, 12:50:55 PM »

Quote
For some strange reason, Catholics apparently consider the lightning strikes on St. Peter's Dome at the conclusion of Vatican I and at Pope Benedict XVI's resignation to be a sign of Divine approval, but if a person were to be struck dead by lightning, then that would be considered Divine disapproval
Silliness. It was just another lightning strike. Lightning hits the Vatican all the time. It has a huge lightning rod on top of it.
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« Reply #419 on: February 18, 2013, 01:44:36 PM »

Quote
For some strange reason, Catholics apparently consider the lightning strikes on St. Peter's Dome at the conclusion of Vatican I and at Pope Benedict XVI's resignation to be a sign of Divine approval, but if a person were to be struck dead by lightning, then that would be considered Divine disapproval
Silliness. It was just another lightning strike. Lightning hits the Vatican all the time. It has a huge lightning rod on top of it.

Installed in the 19th century by Cardinal von Frankenstein, no doubt.  Cheesy
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« Reply #420 on: February 18, 2013, 01:49:27 PM »

Quote
For some strange reason, Catholics apparently consider the lightning strikes on St. Peter's Dome at the conclusion of Vatican I and at Pope Benedict XVI's resignation to be a sign of Divine approval, but if a person were to be struck dead by lightning, then that would be considered Divine disapproval
Silliness. It was just another lightning strike. Lightning hits the Vatican all the time. It has a huge lightning rod on top of it.
I've seen and heard more non-Catholics make a big deal out of that lighting strike than Catholics themselves.

People want to see signs and wonders in everything.

It was just a stupid lighting bolt, nothing else.
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« Reply #421 on: February 18, 2013, 01:52:24 PM »

Installed in the 19th century by Cardinal von Frankenstein, no doubt.  Cheesy
Is that the elderly one who accidentally decreed the preservation of a Popol Vuh instead of a Papal Bull, by mumbling to his counselor?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popol_Vuh







(joke)
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« Reply #422 on: February 18, 2013, 09:24:52 PM »

Just an observation ... the resignation of Pope Benedict has elicited more discussion on this forum - and has resulted in more generally positive remarks about the man and his tenure - than on any of the Catholic fora which I've perused. I have to say that such gives a lot of credence to the positive remarks I've made about the underlying ethos of the Orthodox community here over the years.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #423 on: February 18, 2013, 09:26:42 PM »

Just an observation ... the resignation of Pope Benedict has elicited more discussion on this forum - and has resulted in more generally positive remarks about the man and his tenure - than on any of the Catholic fora which I've perused. I have to say that such gives a lot of credence to the positive remarks I've made about the underlying ethos of the Orthodox community here over the years.

Many years,

Neil

Even between RCs and ECs, ECs tend to love the Pope more even though many would deny his universal ordinary jurisdiction and infallibility.
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« Reply #424 on: February 18, 2013, 09:36:45 PM »

I've seen and heard more non-Catholics make a big deal out of that lighting strike than Catholics themselves.

People want to see signs and wonders in everything.

It was just a stupid lighting bolt, nothing else.

Quote
Fine anni vulgantur prodigia imminentium malorum nuntia: vis fulgurum non alias crebrior, et sidus cometes, sanguine inlustri semper [Neroni] expiatum; bicipites hominum aliorumve animalium partus abiecti in publicum aut in sacrificiis, quibus gravidas hostias immolare mos est, reperti. et in agro Placentino viam propter natus vitulus, cui caput in crure esset; secutaque haruspicum interpretatio, parari rerum humanarum aliud caput, sed non fore validum neque occultum, quin in utero repressum aut iter iuxta editum sit.

At the close of the year people talked much about prodigies, presaging impending evils. Never were lightning flashes more frequent, and a comet too appeared [Chelyabinsk meteor, anyone?], for which Nero always made propitiation with noble blood. Human and other births with two heads were exposed to public view, or were discovered in those sacrifices in which it is usual to immolate victims in a pregnant condition. And in the district of Placentia, close to the road, a calf was born with its head attached to its leg. Then followed an explanation of the diviners, that another head was preparing for the world, which however would be neither mighty nor hidden, as its growth had been checked in the womb, and it had been born by the wayside.

Tacitus, Annals XV, 47.
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« Reply #425 on: February 19, 2013, 06:11:41 PM »

Installed in the 19th century by Cardinal von Frankenstein, no doubt.  Cheesy
Is that the elderly one who accidentally decreed the preservation of a Popol Vuh instead of a Papal Bull, by mumbling to his counselor?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popol_Vuh







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Sure, why not?

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« Reply #426 on: February 19, 2013, 06:17:04 PM »

It's all a load of papal bull police
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« Reply #427 on: February 19, 2013, 06:46:24 PM »

How lovely.
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« Reply #428 on: February 19, 2013, 07:27:59 PM »

All proclamations made by the pope are infallible when he makes them, and all of the modifications he makes to his proclamations are also infallible. In other words, all things go.

Consider this, if the pope was installed in his position by the Holy Spirit, he is installed as the Bishop of Rome. Even if he is unable to continue in his role, he remains Pope, because it is the action if the Holy Spirit. Once a living pope is superseded by a second pope, so to speak, then there are two popes in Rome. That means two popes can be infallible at the same time. Can you imagine how much fun that would be?
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« Reply #429 on: February 19, 2013, 08:23:35 PM »

That means two popes can be infallible at the same time. Can you imagine how much fun that would be?

Shoot, that would be like if St. Peter wrote an infallible book and St. Paul wrote another infallible book!  Shocked




Oh wait ...
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« Reply #430 on: February 19, 2013, 08:26:56 PM »

All proclamations made by the pope are infallible when he makes them, and all of the modifications he makes to his proclamations are also infallible. In other words, all things go.

Consider this, if the pope was installed in his position by the Holy Spirit, he is installed as the Bishop of Rome. Even if he is unable to continue in his role, he remains Pope, because it is the action if the Holy Spirit. Once a living pope is superseded by a second pope, so to speak, then there are two popes in Rome. That means two popes can be infallible at the same time. Can you imagine how much fun that would be?

Not really.  The Papacy is an office, so if a man vacates that office he doesn't bring infallibility with him.
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« Reply #431 on: February 19, 2013, 08:27:34 PM »

That means two popes can be infallible at the same time. Can you imagine how much fun that would be?

Shoot, that would be like if St. Peter wrote an infallible book and St. Paul wrote another infallible book!  Shocked




Oh wait ...

There is an infallible book?

Sounds Protestant Wink
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« Reply #432 on: February 19, 2013, 09:29:32 PM »

Cheesy
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« Reply #433 on: February 20, 2013, 09:03:17 PM »

Bishop Thomas John Paprocki [STL, JD, JCD] of Springfield in Illinois sent around the following canonical analysis on what to call Pope Benedict when he leaves office on February 28th:

"How then are we to understand the word “Pope?” It is an honorific, even a term of endearment (“Papa” in Italian). It is not the title of an ecclesiastical office. We make this distinction all the time. We still call a priest by the honorific “Father” even after he has resigned from the office of Pastor. Having lived in Italy for three and a half years when I was studying canon law, and having a sense of the culture, I have a feeling the Italians will continue to call Pope Benedict Papa Benedetto even after he leaves office as the Bishop of Rome. So I don’t think people will have a hard time wrapping their minds around having a Pope who is no longer the Roman Pontiff, Bishop of Rome, etc. Certainly, in direct address, one would never address him as anything but, “Your Holiness.”"
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« Reply #434 on: February 20, 2013, 09:08:20 PM »

Bishop Thomas John Paprocki [STL, JD, JCD] of Springfield in Illinois sent around the following canonical analysis on what to call Pope Benedict when he leaves office on February 28th:

"How then are we to understand the word “Pope?” It is an honorific, even a term of endearment (“Papa” in Italian). It is not the title of an ecclesiastical office. We make this distinction all the time. We still call a priest by the honorific “Father” even after he has resigned from the office of Pastor. Having lived in Italy for three and a half years when I was studying canon law, and having a sense of the culture, I have a feeling the Italians will continue to call Pope Benedict Papa Benedetto even after he leaves office as the Bishop of Rome. So I don’t think people will have a hard time wrapping their minds around having a Pope who is no longer the Roman Pontiff, Bishop of Rome, etc. Certainly, in direct address, one would never address him as anything but, “Your Holiness.”"

His Beatitude +Lubomyr is still addressed "His Beatitude" even after resigning as Patriarch of the UGCC.
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« Reply #435 on: February 20, 2013, 10:53:55 PM »

... I hope that an Eastern Catholic cardinal is elected Pope.
I don't what good that could possibly do, except perhaps hasten the absorption of the eastern Catholics into the Latin rite church (a process that proceeds at a furious pace in some parts of the world). That might be a positive to some people depending on one's perspective.
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« Reply #436 on: February 21, 2013, 12:28:14 AM »

Or maybe the Eastern Pope will do away with the Roman Rite and just use the Byzantine Rite. Wink
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« Reply #437 on: February 21, 2013, 12:40:51 AM »

I admire your hopefulness, Choy, but I don't think RC ecclesiology is set up for the possibilities you entertain (re: "orthodox" ECCs somehow reforming or changing Rome; I just don't see how it's possible when they are Rome's tributaries in the first place).
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« Reply #438 on: February 21, 2013, 12:43:37 AM »

And the thread descends down the rabbit hole.
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Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
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« Reply #439 on: February 21, 2013, 12:51:06 AM »



By my watch, we still have a ways to go, Papist. Just wait until a new Pope is elected and people do not get their favorite guy (I already know I'm not going to, since Cardinal Arinze is very old).
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« Reply #440 on: February 21, 2013, 12:58:55 AM »

I admire your hopefulness, Choy, but I don't think RC ecclesiology is set up for the possibilities you entertain (re: "orthodox" ECCs somehow reforming or changing Rome; I just don't see how it's possible when they are Rome's tributaries in the first place).

It won't happen through ecclesiology but through the faithfulness of the people to their tradition and faith.  RCs won't convert to Orthodoxy because they won't separate from the Pope.  But if ECs are "orthodox", they will be attracted to it.  We've already have a number of "V2 refugees" in EC parishes.  The more Orthodox an EC parish is, the more it will attract the truly faithful.

I would have never converted straight from RC to Orthodoxy.  ECs gave me that avenue to learn about Orthodoxy.  And had my EC parish been more "orthodox", I may not even have left for Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #441 on: February 21, 2013, 01:02:40 AM »

I see. And you would separate the two? (Ecclesiology from faithfulness to tradition)

I don't really get it, but okay. Smiley
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« Reply #442 on: February 21, 2013, 01:06:55 AM »

I see. And you would separate the two? (Ecclesiology from faithfulness to tradition)

I don't really get it, but okay. Smiley

Do you think you cannot practice your faith just because a bishop is claiming universal ordinary jurisdiction?
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« Reply #443 on: February 21, 2013, 01:16:14 AM »

Not necessarily, but when you cannot openly teach against errors embraced and propagated by said infallible and universal bishop and/or his particular church, it does seem to create problems...and cognitive dissonance among those beneath said bishop in such a scheme who happen to know better. Wink
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« Reply #444 on: February 21, 2013, 02:05:19 AM »

http://pennpress.typepad.com/pennpresslog/2013/02/benedict-and-st-peter-a-post-by-george-e-demacopoulos.html#more

An interesting post by an orthodox historian
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« Reply #445 on: February 21, 2013, 04:12:29 AM »

Not necessarily, but when you cannot openly teach against errors embraced and propagated by said infallible and universal bishop and/or his particular church, it does seem to create problems...and cognitive dissonance among those beneath said bishop in such a scheme who happen to know better. Wink

The fight wasn't for me, but there are those who recognize the problems but chose to persevere to remain in that communion in the hopes that they can bring about change.  We should pray for such people and support them.
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« Reply #446 on: February 21, 2013, 04:15:45 AM »


Nice way to promote a book Wink

I would probably buy it too Cheesy
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dzheremi
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« Reply #447 on: February 21, 2013, 04:25:24 AM »

Not necessarily, but when you cannot openly teach against errors embraced and propagated by said infallible and universal bishop and/or his particular church, it does seem to create problems...and cognitive dissonance among those beneath said bishop in such a scheme who happen to know better. Wink

The fight wasn't for me, but there are those who recognize the problems but chose to persevere to remain in that communion in the hopes that they can bring about change.  We should pray for such people and support them.

Fair enough. I will pray without holding my breath. Smiley
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« Reply #448 on: February 21, 2013, 07:18:08 AM »

... I hope that an Eastern Catholic cardinal is elected Pope.
I don't what good that could possibly do, except perhaps hasten the absorption of the eastern Catholics into the Latin rite church (a process that proceeds at a furious pace in some parts of the world).

Michael, my brother and old friend,

Truer words were never spoken. Prayers that all is well with you.

Many years,

Neil

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"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

- Melkite Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), of blessed memory
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« Reply #449 on: February 21, 2013, 07:30:45 AM »

Or maybe the Eastern Pope will do away with the Roman Rite and just use the Byzantine Rite. Wink

That was what I had in mind. Imagine, millions and millions of people thinking they're watching Christmas Pontifical Mass on TV and suddenly there's an iconostasis and the Pope appears in his omophorion and starts with "Blessed is the Kingdom...". It would be even better if it's in Greek  Smiley
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 07:36:09 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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