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Author Topic: The Pope to resign?!?! / Pope Benedict XVI resigns / Pope set to resign on Feb. 28th  (Read 18028 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #675 on: March 01, 2013, 03:44:52 PM »

I've been told by Catholics that I'm still a Catholic (and consequently Benedict is still the Pope I should be following/listening to...or was until yesterday) by virtue of my baptism and their "indelible mark" theology. Not many, admittedly/thankfully, but they are out there. When I have told them in response that the Orthodox Church did not accept my RC baptism (by pouring, not triple immersion) and that we do not have this belief that "once a X, always an X" via some kind of mark or otherwise, they've either implied that this is irrelevant (I guess only RC sacraments count, even when their official documents say otherwise), or that we really do believe this, I just don't understand Orthodoxy (and I guess by implication, they do, since they say that we believe the same thing)...just like how I just don't understand Catholicism, either...what will I not understand next? Cheesy

We may not always get along, Catholics, but I must say...every day is an adventure with you people. Wink
Very odd that the papacy leaves no indelible mark, given their "once a priest, always a priest, priest forever after the order of Melchizedek" theology.

"The Priesthood is indelible"

"The Papacy's just an office"

Doesn't really seem to mesh does it?
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« Reply #676 on: March 01, 2013, 03:47:57 PM »

Yes it would. I really do wish it was Dolan, though I know he doesn't really have a chance. I think Dolan would be a vocal leader like JPII. Though, I'm not sure he's academic enough.

I'd love for it to be Cardinal Dolan as well, but heard an interview with Fr. Joseph Fessio a while back where he said there's little chance of that happening.  Something along the lines that America is too prominant a power for other Cardinals to also want to see an American Pope. That was the gist of it as best I can recall.
That's pretty much it.
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« Reply #677 on: March 01, 2013, 03:49:40 PM »

I've been told by Catholics that I'm still a Catholic (and consequently Benedict is still the Pope I should be following/listening to...or was until yesterday) by virtue of my baptism and their "indelible mark" theology. Not many, admittedly/thankfully, but they are out there. When I have told them in response that the Orthodox Church did not accept my RC baptism (by pouring, not triple immersion) and that we do not have this belief that "once a X, always an X" via some kind of mark or otherwise, they've either implied that this is irrelevant (I guess only RC sacraments count, even when their official documents say otherwise), or that we really do believe this, I just don't understand Orthodoxy (and I guess by implication, they do, since they say that we believe the same thing)...just like how I just don't understand Catholicism, either...what will I not understand next? Cheesy

We may not always get along, Catholics, but I must say...every day is an adventure with you people. Wink
Very odd that the papacy leaves no indelible mark, given their "once a priest, always a priest, priest forever after the order of Melchizedek" theology.

"The Priesthood is indelible"

"The Papacy's just an office"

Doesn't really seem to mesh does it?
Much of Vatican teaching doesn't.  In this case, if you go with their doctor Cajetan's interpretation (sanctioned by their supreme pontiffs) that the church is defective without a supreme pontiff.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #678 on: March 01, 2013, 03:51:55 PM »

I've been told by Catholics that I'm still a Catholic (and consequently Benedict is still the Pope I should be following/listening to...or was until yesterday) by virtue of my baptism and their "indelible mark" theology. Not many, admittedly/thankfully, but they are out there. When I have told them in response that the Orthodox Church did not accept my RC baptism (by pouring, not triple immersion) and that we do not have this belief that "once a X, always an X" via some kind of mark or otherwise, they've either implied that this is irrelevant (I guess only RC sacraments count, even when their official documents say otherwise), or that we really do believe this, I just don't understand Orthodoxy (and I guess by implication, they do, since they say that we believe the same thing)...just like how I just don't understand Catholicism, either...what will I not understand next? Cheesy

We may not always get along, Catholics, but I must say...every day is an adventure with you people. Wink
Very odd that the papacy leaves no indelible mark, given their "once a priest, always a priest, priest forever after the order of Melchizedek" theology.

"The Priesthood is indelible"

"The Papacy's just an office"

Doesn't really seem to mesh does it?

Life's just full of paradoxes, contradictions, and perceived inconsistencies, ain't it  Grin?
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« Reply #679 on: March 01, 2013, 04:04:48 PM »

I've been told by Catholics that I'm still a Catholic (and consequently Benedict is still the Pope I should be following/listening to...or was until yesterday) by virtue of my baptism and their "indelible mark" theology. Not many, admittedly/thankfully, but they are out there. When I have told them in response that the Orthodox Church did not accept my RC baptism (by pouring, not triple immersion) and that we do not have this belief that "once a X, always an X" via some kind of mark or otherwise, they've either implied that this is irrelevant (I guess only RC sacraments count, even when their official documents say otherwise), or that we really do believe this, I just don't understand Orthodoxy (and I guess by implication, they do, since they say that we believe the same thing)...just like how I just don't understand Catholicism, either...what will I not understand next? Cheesy

We may not always get along, Catholics, but I must say...every day is an adventure with you people. Wink
Very odd that the papacy leaves no indelible mark, given their "once a priest, always a priest, priest forever after the order of Melchizedek" theology.

"The Priesthood is indelible"

"The Papacy's just an office"

Doesn't really seem to mesh does it?

Life's just full of paradoxes, contradictions, and perceived inconsistencies, ain't it  Grin?
and inconsistencies as well.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #680 on: March 01, 2013, 04:06:46 PM »

I've been told by Catholics that I'm still a Catholic (and consequently Benedict is still the Pope I should be following/listening to...or was until yesterday) by virtue of my baptism and their "indelible mark" theology. Not many, admittedly/thankfully, but they are out there. When I have told them in response that the Orthodox Church did not accept my RC baptism (by pouring, not triple immersion) and that we do not have this belief that "once a X, always an X" via some kind of mark or otherwise, they've either implied that this is irrelevant (I guess only RC sacraments count, even when their official documents say otherwise), or that we really do believe this, I just don't understand Orthodoxy (and I guess by implication, they do, since they say that we believe the same thing)...just like how I just don't understand Catholicism, either...what will I not understand next? Cheesy

We may not always get along, Catholics, but I must say...every day is an adventure with you people. Wink
Very odd that the papacy leaves no indelible mark, given their "once a priest, always a priest, priest forever after the order of Melchizedek" theology.

"The Priesthood is indelible"

"The Papacy's just an office"

Doesn't really seem to mesh does it?

Life's just full of paradoxes, contradictions, and perceived inconsistencies, ain't it  Grin?
and inconsistencies as well.

Yup.  Them, too.  Wink
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #681 on: March 01, 2013, 04:08:14 PM »

So...my choice for the round of 16  Tongue:

Timothy Dolan (US)
Marc Oullet (Canada)

Joao Braz de Aviz (Brazil)
Leonardo Sandri (Argentina)

Gianfranco Ravasi (Italy)
Christoph Schoenborn (Austria)

John Onaiyekan (Nigeria)
Luis Antonio Tagle (Philippines)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 04:08:23 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #682 on: March 01, 2013, 04:13:19 PM »

Yes it would. I really do wish it was Dolan, though I know he doesn't really have a chance. I think Dolan would be a vocal leader like JPII. Though, I'm not sure he's academic enough.

I'd love for it to be Cardinal Dolan as well, but heard an interview with Fr. Joseph Fessio a while back where he said there's little chance of that happening.  Something along the lines that America is too prominant a power for other Cardinals to also want to see an American Pope. That was the gist of it as best I can recall.

Personally, I'd pick Cardinal O'Malley.  I guess since I was once a Franciscan I'm sort of prejudice to them, besides, I think he handled the clergy-sex scandal fairly well and selling the cardinal's palace is another plus.
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« Reply #683 on: March 01, 2013, 04:17:04 PM »

I've been told by Catholics that I'm still a Catholic (and consequently Benedict is still the Pope I should be following/listening to...or was until yesterday) by virtue of my baptism and their "indelible mark" theology. Not many, admittedly/thankfully, but they are out there. When I have told them in response that the Orthodox Church did not accept my RC baptism (by pouring, not triple immersion) and that we do not have this belief that "once a X, always an X" via some kind of mark or otherwise, they've either implied that this is irrelevant (I guess only RC sacraments count, even when their official documents say otherwise), or that we really do believe this, I just don't understand Orthodoxy (and I guess by implication, they do, since they say that we believe the same thing)...just like how I just don't understand Catholicism, either...what will I not understand next? Cheesy

We may not always get along, Catholics, but I must say...every day is an adventure with you people. Wink
Very odd that the papacy leaves no indelible mark, given their "once a priest, always a priest, priest forever after the order of Melchizedek" theology.

"The Priesthood is indelible"

"The Papacy's just an office"

Doesn't really seem to mesh does it?

The papacy and cardinals are just official offices, the priesthood includes the deacon, priest and bishop.  Bishop being the fullness of the priesthood.  Even Archbishop and Metropolitan are just titles of honor.
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« Reply #684 on: March 01, 2013, 04:21:23 PM »

I've been told by Catholics that I'm still a Catholic (and consequently Benedict is still the Pope I should be following/listening to...or was until yesterday) by virtue of my baptism and their "indelible mark" theology. Not many, admittedly/thankfully, but they are out there. When I have told them in response that the Orthodox Church did not accept my RC baptism (by pouring, not triple immersion) and that we do not have this belief that "once a X, always an X" via some kind of mark or otherwise, they've either implied that this is irrelevant (I guess only RC sacraments count, even when their official documents say otherwise), or that we really do believe this, I just don't understand Orthodoxy (and I guess by implication, they do, since they say that we believe the same thing)...just like how I just don't understand Catholicism, either...what will I not understand next? Cheesy

We may not always get along, Catholics, but I must say...every day is an adventure with you people. Wink
Very odd that the papacy leaves no indelible mark, given their "once a priest, always a priest, priest forever after the order of Melchizedek" theology.

"The Priesthood is indelible"

"The Papacy's just an office"

Doesn't really seem to mesh does it?

The papacy and cardinals are just official offices, the priesthood includes the deacon, priest and bishop.  Bishop being the fullness of the priesthood.  Even Archbishop and Metropolitan are just titles of honor.
you shouldn't project Orthodox ecclesiology on the Vatican's dogma.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
J Michael
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« Reply #685 on: March 01, 2013, 04:24:47 PM »

I've been told by Catholics that I'm still a Catholic (and consequently Benedict is still the Pope I should be following/listening to...or was until yesterday) by virtue of my baptism and their "indelible mark" theology. Not many, admittedly/thankfully, but they are out there. When I have told them in response that the Orthodox Church did not accept my RC baptism (by pouring, not triple immersion) and that we do not have this belief that "once a X, always an X" via some kind of mark or otherwise, they've either implied that this is irrelevant (I guess only RC sacraments count, even when their official documents say otherwise), or that we really do believe this, I just don't understand Orthodoxy (and I guess by implication, they do, since they say that we believe the same thing)...just like how I just don't understand Catholicism, either...what will I not understand next? Cheesy

We may not always get along, Catholics, but I must say...every day is an adventure with you people. Wink
Very odd that the papacy leaves no indelible mark, given their "once a priest, always a priest, priest forever after the order of Melchizedek" theology.

"The Priesthood is indelible"

"The Papacy's just an office"

Doesn't really seem to mesh does it?

The papacy and cardinals are just official offices, the priesthood includes the deacon, priest and bishop.  Bishop being the fullness of the priesthood.  Even Archbishop and Metropolitan are just titles of honor.
you shouldn't project Orthodox ecclesiology on the Vatican's dogma.

But is he?  If he's incorrect in what he wrote.....how so?
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #686 on: March 01, 2013, 04:29:49 PM »

I've been told by Catholics that I'm still a Catholic (and consequently Benedict is still the Pope I should be following/listening to...or was until yesterday) by virtue of my baptism and their "indelible mark" theology. Not many, admittedly/thankfully, but they are out there. When I have told them in response that the Orthodox Church did not accept my RC baptism (by pouring, not triple immersion) and that we do not have this belief that "once a X, always an X" via some kind of mark or otherwise, they've either implied that this is irrelevant (I guess only RC sacraments count, even when their official documents say otherwise), or that we really do believe this, I just don't understand Orthodoxy (and I guess by implication, they do, since they say that we believe the same thing)...just like how I just don't understand Catholicism, either...what will I not understand next? Cheesy

We may not always get along, Catholics, but I must say...every day is an adventure with you people. Wink
Very odd that the papacy leaves no indelible mark, given their "once a priest, always a priest, priest forever after the order of Melchizedek" theology.

"The Priesthood is indelible"

"The Papacy's just an office"

Doesn't really seem to mesh does it?

The papacy and cardinals are just official offices, the priesthood includes the deacon, priest and bishop.  Bishop being the fullness of the priesthood.  Even Archbishop and Metropolitan are just titles of honor.
you shouldn't project Orthodox ecclesiology on the Vatican's dogma.

Men are ordained deacons, priests and bishops.  No one is ordained an archbishop, metropolitan, cardinal, pope or patriarch.  Its always been that way in the Catholic church, at least during my years there.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #687 on: March 01, 2013, 04:49:15 PM »

I've been told by Catholics that I'm still a Catholic (and consequently Benedict is still the Pope I should be following/listening to...or was until yesterday) by virtue of my baptism and their "indelible mark" theology. Not many, admittedly/thankfully, but they are out there. When I have told them in response that the Orthodox Church did not accept my RC baptism (by pouring, not triple immersion) and that we do not have this belief that "once a X, always an X" via some kind of mark or otherwise, they've either implied that this is irrelevant (I guess only RC sacraments count, even when their official documents say otherwise), or that we really do believe this, I just don't understand Orthodoxy (and I guess by implication, they do, since they say that we believe the same thing)...just like how I just don't understand Catholicism, either...what will I not understand next? Cheesy

We may not always get along, Catholics, but I must say...every day is an adventure with you people. Wink
Very odd that the papacy leaves no indelible mark, given their "once a priest, always a priest, priest forever after the order of Melchizedek" theology.

"The Priesthood is indelible"

"The Papacy's just an office"

Doesn't really seem to mesh does it?

The papacy and cardinals are just official offices, the priesthood includes the deacon, priest and bishop.  Bishop being the fullness of the priesthood.  Even Archbishop and Metropolitan are just titles of honor.
you shouldn't project Orthodox ecclesiology on the Vatican's dogma.

But is he?  If he's incorrect in what he wrote.....how so?
the papacy as Pastor Aeternus defines it is not "just [an] official office."  It alone, according to the Vatican's doctor Cajetan, "being the fullness of the priesthood," and more than just a title of honor.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #688 on: March 01, 2013, 04:52:02 PM »

I've been told by Catholics that I'm still a Catholic (and consequently Benedict is still the Pope I should be following/listening to...or was until yesterday) by virtue of my baptism and their "indelible mark" theology. Not many, admittedly/thankfully, but they are out there. When I have told them in response that the Orthodox Church did not accept my RC baptism (by pouring, not triple immersion) and that we do not have this belief that "once a X, always an X" via some kind of mark or otherwise, they've either implied that this is irrelevant (I guess only RC sacraments count, even when their official documents say otherwise), or that we really do believe this, I just don't understand Orthodoxy (and I guess by implication, they do, since they say that we believe the same thing)...just like how I just don't understand Catholicism, either...what will I not understand next? Cheesy

We may not always get along, Catholics, but I must say...every day is an adventure with you people. Wink
Very odd that the papacy leaves no indelible mark, given their "once a priest, always a priest, priest forever after the order of Melchizedek" theology.

"The Priesthood is indelible"

"The Papacy's just an office"

Doesn't really seem to mesh does it?

The papacy and cardinals are just official offices, the priesthood includes the deacon, priest and bishop.  Bishop being the fullness of the priesthood.  Even Archbishop and Metropolitan are just titles of honor.
you shouldn't project Orthodox ecclesiology on the Vatican's dogma.

Men are ordained deacons, priests and bishops.  No one is ordained an archbishop, metropolitan, cardinal, pope or patriarch.  Its always been that way in the Catholic church, at least during my years there.
and yet the Vatican's pope claims the grace of infallibility and supremacy outside the sacramental system.

As pointing out, no one is claiming that the Vatican's teachings "mesh."
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #689 on: March 01, 2013, 04:53:13 PM »

So...my choice for the round of 16  Tongue:

Timothy Dolan (US)
Marc Oullet (Canada)

Joao Braz de Aviz (Brazil)
Leonardo Sandri (Argentina)

Gianfranco Ravasi (Italy)
Christoph Schoenborn (Austria)

John Onaiyekan (Nigeria)
Luis Antonio Tagle (Philippines)

I'm not knowledgeable enough to pick from each bracket.

I hate that they Put Cardinals Turkson vs Tagle so early. I'd have to go with Turkson, but like them both. I know next to nothing about the Latin American Cardinals. I know Cardinal Schoenborn has a very good relationship with the Eastern Churches. Definitely a fan of Cardinal Dolan and have heard good things about Cardinal Oullet.

Timothy Dolan (US)
Marc Oullet (Canada)

Abstain
Abstain

Abstain
Christoph Schoenborn (Austria)

Abstain
Peter Turkson (Ghana)
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« Reply #690 on: March 01, 2013, 04:58:22 PM »

So...my choice for the round of 16  Tongue:

Timothy Dolan (US)
Marc Oullet (Canada)

Joao Braz de Aviz (Brazil)
Leonardo Sandri (Argentina)

Gianfranco Ravasi (Italy)
Christoph Schoenborn (Austria)

John Onaiyekan (Nigeria)
Luis Antonio Tagle (Philippines)

I'm not knowledgeable enough to pick from each bracket.

I hate that they Put Cardinals Turkson vs Tagle so early. I'd have to go with Turkson, but like them both. I know next to nothing about the Latin American Cardinals. I know Cardinal Schoenborn has a very good relationship with the Eastern Churches. Definitely a fan of Cardinal Dolan and have heard good things about Cardinal Oullet.

Timothy Dolan (US)
Marc Oullet (Canada)

Abstain
Abstain

Abstain
Christoph Schoenborn (Austria)

Abstain
Peter Turkson (Ghana)

I wikipediaed most of them to base my decisions  Wink
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« Reply #691 on: March 01, 2013, 05:00:51 PM »

And down the stretch they come! It's Nigeria, in front of Japan, but then here comes Brazil! Folks, this is the most exciting race we've had in years!

And the crowd goes wild! "What do we want? White smoke! When do we want it? Now!"

With all the cardinals in town, it'll be a big week for the ecclesiastical laundromats, that's for sure. Now over to the weather.  Smiley
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« Reply #692 on: March 01, 2013, 05:00:54 PM »

I wikipediaed most of them to base my decisions  Wink

Ahh, a fellow netodox  Cheesy
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« Reply #693 on: March 01, 2013, 05:01:37 PM »

And down the stretch they come! It's Nigeria, in front of Japan, but then here comes Brazil! Folks, this is the most exciting race we've had in years!

And the crowd goes wild! "What do we want? White smoke! When do we want it? Now!"

With all the cardinals in town, it'll be a big week for the ecclesiastical laundromats, that's for sure. Now over to the weather.  Smiley

LOL!
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« Reply #694 on: March 01, 2013, 05:06:06 PM »

And down the stretch they come! It's Nigeria, in front of Japan, but then here comes Brazil! Folks, this is the most exciting race we've had in years!

And the crowd goes wild! "What do we want? White smoke! When do we want it? Now!"

With all the cardinals in town, it'll be a big week for the ecclesiastical laundromats, that's for sure. Now over to the weather.  Smiley
+1
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« Reply #695 on: March 01, 2013, 05:06:29 PM »

I've been told by Catholics that I'm still a Catholic (and consequently Benedict is still the Pope I should be following/listening to...or was until yesterday) by virtue of my baptism and their "indelible mark" theology. Not many, admittedly/thankfully, but they are out there. When I have told them in response that the Orthodox Church did not accept my RC baptism (by pouring, not triple immersion) and that we do not have this belief that "once a X, always an X" via some kind of mark or otherwise, they've either implied that this is irrelevant (I guess only RC sacraments count, even when their official documents say otherwise), or that we really do believe this, I just don't understand Orthodoxy (and I guess by implication, they do, since they say that we believe the same thing)...just like how I just don't understand Catholicism, either...what will I not understand next? Cheesy

We may not always get along, Catholics, but I must say...every day is an adventure with you people. Wink
Very odd that the papacy leaves no indelible mark, given their "once a priest, always a priest, priest forever after the order of Melchizedek" theology.

"The Priesthood is indelible"

"The Papacy's just an office"

Doesn't really seem to mesh does it?

The papacy and cardinals are just official offices, the priesthood includes the deacon, priest and bishop.  Bishop being the fullness of the priesthood.  Even Archbishop and Metropolitan are just titles of honor.
you shouldn't project Orthodox ecclesiology on the Vatican's dogma.

But is he?  If he's incorrect in what he wrote.....how so?
the papacy as Pastor Aeternus defines it is not "just [an] official office."  It alone, according to the Vatican's doctor Cajetan, "being the fullness of the priesthood," and more than just a title of honor.

No where in these 2 sites do I see the pope as the fullness of the priesthood:

The Pope:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm

The Priesthood:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12409a.htm
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« Reply #696 on: March 01, 2013, 05:06:37 PM »

So...my choice for the round of 16  Tongue:

Timothy Dolan (US)
Marc Oullet (Canada)

Joao Braz de Aviz (Brazil)
Leonardo Sandri (Argentina)

Gianfranco Ravasi (Italy)
Christoph Schoenborn (Austria)

John Onaiyekan (Nigeria)
Luis Antonio Tagle (Philippines)

I'm not knowledgeable enough to pick from each bracket.

I hate that they Put Cardinals Turkson vs Tagle so early. I'd have to go with Turkson, but like them both. I know next to nothing about the Latin American Cardinals. I know Cardinal Schoenborn has a very good relationship with the Eastern Churches. Definitely a fan of Cardinal Dolan and have heard good things about Cardinal Oullet.

Timothy Dolan (US)
Marc Oullet (Canada)

Abstain
Abstain

Abstain
Christoph Schoenborn (Austria)

Abstain
Peter Turkson (Ghana)
Cardinal Schoenborn is a bit too liberal for my tastes. I fear he would not have the courage to continue Pope Benedict's reform of the reform.
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« Reply #697 on: March 01, 2013, 05:07:28 PM »

And down the stretch they come! It's Nigeria, in front of Japan, but then here comes Brazil! Folks, this is the most exciting race we've had in years!

And the crowd goes wild! "What do we want? White smoke! When do we want it? Now!"

With all the cardinals in town, it'll be a big week for the ecclesiastical laundromats, that's for sure. Now over to the weather.  Smiley

LOL!

Thanks.
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« Reply #698 on: March 01, 2013, 05:07:56 PM »

I've been told by Catholics that I'm still a Catholic (and consequently Benedict is still the Pope I should be following/listening to...or was until yesterday) by virtue of my baptism and their "indelible mark" theology. Not many, admittedly/thankfully, but they are out there. When I have told them in response that the Orthodox Church did not accept my RC baptism (by pouring, not triple immersion) and that we do not have this belief that "once a X, always an X" via some kind of mark or otherwise, they've either implied that this is irrelevant (I guess only RC sacraments count, even when their official documents say otherwise), or that we really do believe this, I just don't understand Orthodoxy (and I guess by implication, they do, since they say that we believe the same thing)...just like how I just don't understand Catholicism, either...what will I not understand next? Cheesy

We may not always get along, Catholics, but I must say...every day is an adventure with you people. Wink
Very odd that the papacy leaves no indelible mark, given their "once a priest, always a priest, priest forever after the order of Melchizedek" theology.

"The Priesthood is indelible"

"The Papacy's just an office"

Doesn't really seem to mesh does it?

The papacy and cardinals are just official offices, the priesthood includes the deacon, priest and bishop.  Bishop being the fullness of the priesthood.  Even Archbishop and Metropolitan are just titles of honor.
you shouldn't project Orthodox ecclesiology on the Vatican's dogma.

But is he?  If he's incorrect in what he wrote.....how so?
the papacy as Pastor Aeternus defines it is not "just [an] official office."  It alone, according to the Vatican's doctor Cajetan, "being the fullness of the priesthood," and more than just a title of honor.

No where in these 2 sites do I see the pope as the fullness of the priesthood:

The Pope:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm

The Priesthood:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12409a.htm
Seems like Ialmisry may just be making stuff up.
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« Reply #699 on: March 01, 2013, 05:16:20 PM »

So...my choice for the round of 16  Tongue:

Timothy Dolan (US)
Marc Oullet (Canada)

Joao Braz de Aviz (Brazil)
Leonardo Sandri (Argentina)

Gianfranco Ravasi (Italy)
Christoph Schoenborn (Austria)

John Onaiyekan (Nigeria)
Luis Antonio Tagle (Philippines)

I'm not knowledgeable enough to pick from each bracket.

I hate that they Put Cardinals Turkson vs Tagle so early. I'd have to go with Turkson, but like them both. I know next to nothing about the Latin American Cardinals. I know Cardinal Schoenborn has a very good relationship with the Eastern Churches. Definitely a fan of Cardinal Dolan and have heard good things about Cardinal Oullet.

Timothy Dolan (US)
Marc Oullet (Canada)

Abstain
Abstain

Abstain
Christoph Schoenborn (Austria)

Abstain
Peter Turkson (Ghana)

It was tough choosing between Turkson and Tagle, but Tagle's dissertation that had a great effect on Vatican II, his tackling of the sex abuse scandal, as well as his seemingly charismatic personality made me choose him over Turkson.

Schoenborn's tackling of the sex abuse scandal and his views on condoms as "lesser evil" attracted me.  His multilingual status and close relationship with Pope Benedict are extra credits for him.

Marc Oullet...just a remarkable resume!
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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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« Reply #700 on: March 01, 2013, 05:21:49 PM »

So...my choice for the round of 16  Tongue:

Timothy Dolan (US)
Marc Oullet (Canada)

Joao Braz de Aviz (Brazil)
Leonardo Sandri (Argentina)

Gianfranco Ravasi (Italy)
Christoph Schoenborn (Austria)

John Onaiyekan (Nigeria)
Luis Antonio Tagle (Philippines)

I'm not knowledgeable enough to pick from each bracket.

I hate that they Put Cardinals Turkson vs Tagle so early. I'd have to go with Turkson, but like them both. I know next to nothing about the Latin American Cardinals. I know Cardinal Schoenborn has a very good relationship with the Eastern Churches. Definitely a fan of Cardinal Dolan and have heard good things about Cardinal Oullet.

Timothy Dolan (US)
Marc Oullet (Canada)

Abstain
Abstain

Abstain
Christoph Schoenborn (Austria)

Abstain
Peter Turkson (Ghana)

It was tough choosing between Turkson and Tagle, but Tagle's dissertation that had a great effect on Vatican II, his tackling of the sex abuse scandal, as well as his seemingly charismatic personality made me choose him over Turkson.

Schoenborn's tackling of the sex abuse scandal and his views on condoms as "lesser evil" attracted me.  His multilingual status and close relationship with Pope Benedict are extra credits for him.

Marc Oullet...just a remarkable resume!

As I don't get to vote and my opinion about it isn't worth a damn, I'll just wait and see who they pick and then read up on him.  My hope is that they pick someone very conservative with a very strong backbone.
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #701 on: March 01, 2013, 05:23:16 PM »

So...my choice for the round of 16  Tongue:

Timothy Dolan (US)
Marc Oullet (Canada)

Joao Braz de Aviz (Brazil)
Leonardo Sandri (Argentina)

Gianfranco Ravasi (Italy)
Christoph Schoenborn (Austria)

John Onaiyekan (Nigeria)
Luis Antonio Tagle (Philippines)

I'm not knowledgeable enough to pick from each bracket.

I hate that they Put Cardinals Turkson vs Tagle so early. I'd have to go with Turkson, but like them both. I know next to nothing about the Latin American Cardinals. I know Cardinal Schoenborn has a very good relationship with the Eastern Churches. Definitely a fan of Cardinal Dolan and have heard good things about Cardinal Oullet.

Timothy Dolan (US)
Marc Oullet (Canada)

Abstain
Abstain

Abstain
Christoph Schoenborn (Austria)

Abstain
Peter Turkson (Ghana)

It was tough choosing between Turkson and Tagle, but Tagle's dissertation that had a great effect on Vatican II, his tackling of the sex abuse scandal, as well as his seemingly charismatic personality made me choose him over Turkson.

Schoenborn's tackling of the sex abuse scandal and his views on condoms as "lesser evil" attracted me.  His multilingual status and close relationship with Pope Benedict are extra credits for him.

Marc Oullet...just a remarkable resume!

As I don't get to vote and my opinion about it isn't worth a damn, I'll just wait and see who they pick and then read up on him.  My hope is that they pick someone very conservative with a very strong backbone.
^ This
You are on a posting roll
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« Reply #702 on: March 01, 2013, 05:26:39 PM »

So...my choice for the round of 16  Tongue:

Timothy Dolan (US)
Marc Oullet (Canada)

Joao Braz de Aviz (Brazil)
Leonardo Sandri (Argentina)

Gianfranco Ravasi (Italy)
Christoph Schoenborn (Austria)

John Onaiyekan (Nigeria)
Luis Antonio Tagle (Philippines)

I'm not knowledgeable enough to pick from each bracket.

I hate that they Put Cardinals Turkson vs Tagle so early. I'd have to go with Turkson, but like them both. I know next to nothing about the Latin American Cardinals. I know Cardinal Schoenborn has a very good relationship with the Eastern Churches. Definitely a fan of Cardinal Dolan and have heard good things about Cardinal Oullet.

Timothy Dolan (US)
Marc Oullet (Canada)

Abstain
Abstain

Abstain
Christoph Schoenborn (Austria)

Abstain
Peter Turkson (Ghana)

It was tough choosing between Turkson and Tagle, but Tagle's dissertation that had a great effect on Vatican II, his tackling of the sex abuse scandal, as well as his seemingly charismatic personality made me choose him over Turkson.

Schoenborn's tackling of the sex abuse scandal and his views on condoms as "lesser evil" attracted me.  His multilingual status and close relationship with Pope Benedict are extra credits for him.

Marc Oullet...just a remarkable resume!

As I don't get to vote and my opinion about it isn't worth a damn, I'll just wait and see who they pick and then read up on him.  My hope is that they pick someone very conservative with a very strong backbone.
^ This
You are on a posting roll

There's nothing to do at work, so....... Grin  The weekend begins in 1/2 hour--not a minute too soon!!!
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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #703 on: March 01, 2013, 05:28:16 PM »

Maybe if Cardinal Dolan is chosen he will introduce new hats as pope.

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« Reply #704 on: March 01, 2013, 05:29:11 PM »

I think I may take a little time to look for articles or other things written by these candidates. Should be interesting to get an estimate of what their different leanings in office may be.

Personally, I was hoping for Cdl. Arinze. Shucks.  Undecided
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« Reply #705 on: March 01, 2013, 05:30:40 PM »

he was better as Cardinal Ratzinger. As Pope Benedict XVI he botched the whole Patriarchate of the West thing.

Yes, I'm sure it's shocking to you Orthodox that a title that was in the Annuario Pontificio since 1863 is no longer there.
[/sarcasm]
Not shocking, just revealing

Boy are my cheeks red.

[File red_cheeks.jpg not found]

But anyhow, I'm curious how you think it's revealing. Is it presumptuous for Benedict to reverse a move made by Pius IX?
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« Reply #706 on: March 01, 2013, 05:34:20 PM »

So...my choice for the round of 16  Tongue:

Timothy Dolan (US)
Marc Oullet (Canada)

Joao Braz de Aviz (Brazil)
Leonardo Sandri (Argentina)

Gianfranco Ravasi (Italy)
Christoph Schoenborn (Austria)

John Onaiyekan (Nigeria)
Luis Antonio Tagle (Philippines)

I'm not knowledgeable enough to pick from each bracket.

I hate that they Put Cardinals Turkson vs Tagle so early. I'd have to go with Turkson, but like them both. I know next to nothing about the Latin American Cardinals. I know Cardinal Schoenborn has a very good relationship with the Eastern Churches. Definitely a fan of Cardinal Dolan and have heard good things about Cardinal Oullet.

Timothy Dolan (US)
Marc Oullet (Canada)

Abstain
Abstain

Abstain
Christoph Schoenborn (Austria)

Abstain
Peter Turkson (Ghana)

It was tough choosing between Turkson and Tagle, but Tagle's dissertation that had a great effect on Vatican II, his tackling of the sex abuse scandal, as well as his seemingly charismatic personality made me choose him over Turkson.

Schoenborn's tackling of the sex abuse scandal and his views on condoms as "lesser evil" attracted me.  His multilingual status and close relationship with Pope Benedict are extra credits for him.

Marc Oullet...just a remarkable resume!

As I don't get to vote and my opinion about it isn't worth a damn, I'll just wait and see who they pick and then read up on him.  My hope is that they pick someone very conservative with a very strong backbone.

It's mindless fun, I admit... Tongue
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 05:34:42 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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« Reply #707 on: March 01, 2013, 05:38:53 PM »

So...my choice for the round of 16  Tongue:

Timothy Dolan (US)
Marc Oullet (Canada)

Joao Braz de Aviz (Brazil)
Leonardo Sandri (Argentina)

Gianfranco Ravasi (Italy)
Christoph Schoenborn (Austria)

John Onaiyekan (Nigeria)
Luis Antonio Tagle (Philippines)

I'm not knowledgeable enough to pick from each bracket.

I hate that they Put Cardinals Turkson vs Tagle so early. I'd have to go with Turkson, but like them both. I know next to nothing about the Latin American Cardinals. I know Cardinal Schoenborn has a very good relationship with the Eastern Churches. Definitely a fan of Cardinal Dolan and have heard good things about Cardinal Oullet.

Timothy Dolan (US)
Marc Oullet (Canada)

Abstain
Abstain

Abstain
Christoph Schoenborn (Austria)

Abstain
Peter Turkson (Ghana)

It was tough choosing between Turkson and Tagle, but Tagle's dissertation that had a great effect on Vatican II, his tackling of the sex abuse scandal, as well as his seemingly charismatic personality made me choose him over Turkson.

Schoenborn's tackling of the sex abuse scandal and his views on condoms as "lesser evil" attracted me.  His multilingual status and close relationship with Pope Benedict are extra credits for him.

Marc Oullet...just a remarkable resume!

As I don't get to vote and my opinion about it isn't worth a damn, I'll just wait and see who they pick and then read up on him.  My hope is that they pick someone very conservative with a very strong backbone.

It's mindless fun, I admit... Tongue

Hey, I'm not criticizing... Wink
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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #708 on: March 01, 2013, 05:52:46 PM »

As I don't get to vote and my opinion about it isn't worth a damn, I'll just wait and see who they pick and then read up on him.  My hope is that they pick someone very conservative with a very strong backbone.

It's lent, we can't have someone who has a backbone.
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« Reply #709 on: March 01, 2013, 05:54:41 PM »

I've been told by Catholics that I'm still a Catholic (and consequently Benedict is still the Pope I should be following/listening to...or was until yesterday) by virtue of my baptism and their "indelible mark" theology. Not many, admittedly/thankfully, but they are out there. When I have told them in response that the Orthodox Church did not accept my RC baptism (by pouring, not triple immersion) and that we do not have this belief that "once a X, always an X" via some kind of mark or otherwise, they've either implied that this is irrelevant (I guess only RC sacraments count, even when their official documents say otherwise), or that we really do believe this, I just don't understand Orthodoxy (and I guess by implication, they do, since they say that we believe the same thing)...just like how I just don't understand Catholicism, either...what will I not understand next? Cheesy

We may not always get along, Catholics, but I must say...every day is an adventure with you people. Wink
Very odd that the papacy leaves no indelible mark, given their "once a priest, always a priest, priest forever after the order of Melchizedek" theology.

"The Priesthood is indelible"

"The Papacy's just an office"

Doesn't really seem to mesh does it?

The papacy and cardinals are just official offices, the priesthood includes the deacon, priest and bishop.  Bishop being the fullness of the priesthood.  Even Archbishop and Metropolitan are just titles of honor.
you shouldn't project Orthodox ecclesiology on the Vatican's dogma.

But is he?  If he's incorrect in what he wrote.....how so?
the papacy as Pastor Aeternus defines it is not "just [an] official office."  It alone, according to the Vatican's doctor Cajetan, "being the fullness of the priesthood," and more than just a title of honor.

No where in these 2 sites do I see the pope as the fullness of the priesthood:

The Pope:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm

The Priesthood:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12409a.htm
Look at the quotes from Cajetan, and the plaudites for him from the "supreme pontiffs", above.
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #710 on: March 01, 2013, 05:55:24 PM »

I've been told by Catholics that I'm still a Catholic (and consequently Benedict is still the Pope I should be following/listening to...or was until yesterday) by virtue of my baptism and their "indelible mark" theology. Not many, admittedly/thankfully, but they are out there. When I have told them in response that the Orthodox Church did not accept my RC baptism (by pouring, not triple immersion) and that we do not have this belief that "once a X, always an X" via some kind of mark or otherwise, they've either implied that this is irrelevant (I guess only RC sacraments count, even when their official documents say otherwise), or that we really do believe this, I just don't understand Orthodoxy (and I guess by implication, they do, since they say that we believe the same thing)...just like how I just don't understand Catholicism, either...what will I not understand next? Cheesy

We may not always get along, Catholics, but I must say...every day is an adventure with you people. Wink
Very odd that the papacy leaves no indelible mark, given their "once a priest, always a priest, priest forever after the order of Melchizedek" theology.

"The Priesthood is indelible"

"The Papacy's just an office"

Doesn't really seem to mesh does it?

The papacy and cardinals are just official offices, the priesthood includes the deacon, priest and bishop.  Bishop being the fullness of the priesthood.  Even Archbishop and Metropolitan are just titles of honor.
you shouldn't project Orthodox ecclesiology on the Vatican's dogma.

But is he?  If he's incorrect in what he wrote.....how so?
the papacy as Pastor Aeternus defines it is not "just [an] official office."  It alone, according to the Vatican's doctor Cajetan, "being the fullness of the priesthood," and more than just a title of honor.

No where in these 2 sites do I see the pope as the fullness of the priesthood:

The Pope:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm

The Priesthood:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12409a.htm
Seems like Ialmisry may just be making stuff up.
No, I leave that to your magisterium, quoted above.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
J Michael
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« Reply #711 on: March 01, 2013, 05:56:41 PM »

As I don't get to vote and my opinion about it isn't worth a damn, I'll just wait and see who they pick and then read up on him.  My hope is that they pick someone very conservative with a very strong backbone.

It's lent, we can't have someone who has a backbone.

What's this "we" crap?  I thought you left the Catholic Church.  Grin

Besides, Popes are not to be eaten.  Unless you're an Orthodox cannibal, that is.
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« Reply #712 on: March 01, 2013, 05:57:07 PM »

he was better as Cardinal Ratzinger. As Pope Benedict XVI he botched the whole Patriarchate of the West thing.

Yes, I'm sure it's shocking to you Orthodox that a title that was in the Annuario Pontificio since 1863 is no longer there.
[/sarcasm]
Not shocking, just revealing

Boy are my cheeks red.

[File red_cheeks.jpg not found]

But anyhow, I'm curious how you think it's revealing. Is it presumptuous for Benedict to reverse a move made by Pius IX?
No, it is dissimulating to claim he did.  (the move in question, being made in 1870).
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« Reply #713 on: March 01, 2013, 05:58:24 PM »

Some people's imaginations can go quite wild.

Please note, I said that I have a sense of foreboding regarding the whole papal resignation thing. I did not say that I have any theory regarding it. I did not say I have tried to parse everything to glean some deeper understanding. I am not entertaining any "conspiracy theory" about any aspect of it (the modern N-word that shuts down rational debate). I did not say I had really thought much about it, or had drawn any conclusions.

All that stuff is in the eye of a beholder or two. And only.

The fact remains, I still have a sense of most unpleasant foreboding about it. (shrug)
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« Reply #714 on: March 01, 2013, 06:00:58 PM »

As I don't get to vote and my opinion about it isn't worth a damn, I'll just wait and see who they pick and then read up on him.  My hope is that they pick someone very conservative with a very strong backbone.

It's lent, we can't have someone who has a backbone.

What's this "we" crap?  I thought you left the Catholic Church.  Grin

Besides, Popes are not to be eaten.  Unless you're an Orthodox cannibal, that is.

We're still hoping the next Pope will return the Church to Orthodoxy Wink
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« Reply #715 on: March 01, 2013, 06:04:49 PM »

About the possibility of Roman Catholics reuniting with the Church, what saint was it, who said that the days of the Ecumenical Councils and mass receptions are over, and that now the only way that people can be united to the Church, is through individual conversion and reception?

Not that it is dogma, but it is thought-provoking.
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« Reply #716 on: March 01, 2013, 06:06:25 PM »

About the possibility of Roman Catholics reuniting with the Church, what saint was it, who said that the days of the Ecumenical Councils and mass receptions are over, and that now the only way that people can be united to the Church, is through individual conversion and reception?

Not that it is dogma, but it is thought-provoking.

A little sad, I think. But that's just me.
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« Reply #717 on: March 01, 2013, 06:24:04 PM »

About the possibility of Roman Catholics reuniting with the Church, what saint was it, who said that the days of the Ecumenical Councils and mass receptions are over, and that now the only way that people can be united to the Church, is through individual conversion and reception?

Not that it is dogma, but it is thought-provoking.

I agree completely!  The RC Church changed a lot since the Reformation.  I'm hoping that Orthodoxy can have such an impact that the RC Church reacts to Orthodoxy making them more Orthodox, which eventually will lead to the reunion.  The Reformation made them more Protestant, despite efforts to counter the Reformation.  That is why I always believe that the major departure of the RC Church from Apostolic traidtions is Trent, not Vatican II.  Vatican II is just the child of Trent and the Reformation.
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« Reply #718 on: March 01, 2013, 06:49:32 PM »

About the possibility of Roman Catholics reuniting with the Church, what saint was it, who said that the days of the Ecumenical Councils and mass receptions are over, and that now the only way that people can be united to the Church, is through individual conversion and reception?

Not that it is dogma, but it is thought-provoking.

I agree completely! 

I also agree, at least to an extent: I think that the time we are living in now isn't a time of major reconciliations. However, I don't want to project that into future generations. (Of course, I'm not suggesting that future generations will have more union-of-brest style unions. To my mind, the Union of Brest et al were not examples of ecumenism, but of people switching from one side to the other.)
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« Reply #719 on: March 01, 2013, 07:17:38 PM »

Wow! Why so much interest in a heterodox church? I cannot imagine why the schismatic bishop of Rome should elicit such interest.

When we say, "I believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" are you thinking that includes Rome as well? If not, why such interest in the papacy?
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