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Author Topic: The Pope to resign?!?! / Pope Benedict XVI resigns / Pope set to resign on Feb. 28th  (Read 16650 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« Reply #540 on: February 28, 2013, 03:36:32 PM »

101 minutes until I become a sedevacantist.

So does that mean that already-sedevacantists become just schismatics instead of heretics as well for a bit? Wink

No, they all come into communion via the empty Chair of Peter Wink
Or maybe it means that our communion in the faith is even more fundamental than our communion with the Pope. Just saying.
not what "Pastor Aeternus" says.

Actually it is Unam Sanctam that says that:

"Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman pontiff"
Do you think that Unam Sanctam does not take into account the instances when there is no Pope. There is currently no Pope. Do you think that that means that according to the Catholic Church, I am now damned?

According to some conclavists, yes. (It was a while ago that I read that, so I don't know if I could find it again or tell you which group it was; but I recall part of their rationale for electing a pope was that sede vacante meant everybody going to hell.)
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« Reply #541 on: February 28, 2013, 03:36:47 PM »

Do you think that Unam Sanctam does not take into account the instances when there is no Pope. There is currently no Pope. Do you think that that means that according to the Catholic Church, I am now damned?

My response was to ialmisry's response to your post where you said that unity is by faith, not to the Pope.  It is clear that the Catholic Church teachest that unity is through the Pope alone.  I guess you can say that if a Pope accepts one into communion then there is a guarantee that is a unity of faith.  But still it is through the Pope.  What if the Orthodox say today that they will accept full Communion with the Roman Catholic Church and accept all her teachings as is, but this offer expires in one week.  Do you think anyone in the Roman Catholic Church can take that offer right now?

As for whether you are saved or damned, I don't know.  It wasn't in the context of the discussion and not something I deeply thought about in that context.  I mean, you are asking a person who was Catholic for 36 years and left, if I truly believed that salvation rested on the Roman Pontiff then why did I go to the Orthodox Church?  Maybe try not dying until the next Pope is elected just to have your bases covered Wink
Well then you are simply delusional. If unity were "in the Pope alone" as you suggest, then at this moment, there would be not a single member of the Catholic Church. But as it is, there are still over a billion Catholics worldwide, in spite of the fact that there is no Pope with whom were are in communion.

Maybe there is no Roman Catholic Church.  Did you check?
Let me check..... Oh yup. We are still here.  Grin
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« Reply #542 on: February 28, 2013, 03:37:12 PM »

Do you think that Unam Sanctam does not take into account the instances when there is no Pope. There is currently no Pope. Do you think that that means that according to the Catholic Church, I am now damned?

My response was to ialmisry's response to your post where you said that unity is by faith, not to the Pope.  It is clear that the Catholic Church teachest that unity is through the Pope alone.  I guess you can say that if a Pope accepts one into communion then there is a guarantee that is a unity of faith.  But still it is through the Pope.  What if the Orthodox say today that they will accept full Communion with the Roman Catholic Church and accept all her teachings as is, but this offer expires in one week.  Do you think anyone in the Roman Catholic Church can take that offer right now?

As for whether you are saved or damned, I don't know.  It wasn't in the context of the discussion and not something I deeply thought about in that context.  I mean, you are asking a person who was Catholic for 36 years and left, if I truly believed that salvation rested on the Roman Pontiff then why did I go to the Orthodox Church?  Maybe try not dying until the next Pope is elected just to have your bases covered Wink
Well then you are simply delusional. If unity were "in the Pope alone" as you suggest, then at this moment, there would be not a single member of the Catholic Church. But as it is, there are still over a billion Catholics worldwide, in spite of the fact that there is no Pope with whom were are in communion.

But you didn't answer my question.  If the Orthodox say we are coming in communion today, who receives us?  Can the Carmelengo recevie us?  Can the Cardinals in council?
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minasoliman
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« Reply #543 on: February 28, 2013, 03:38:06 PM »

not quite.

In Arabic, I pray for the Pope in the dual (in the same way that we say "the two Peters" for "SS. Peter and Paul" and "the two moons" for "the sun and the moon.").

Thing is though, the dual number doesn't exist in latin, so it would be the plural.

(I wouldnt put it in the plural, but that is a particular case of my not being in communion with the OO)
The dual isn't just used to indicate two.  Sometimes it is used (as I do in the case of the two Popes Theodore II) to indicate identity.ادكر يا رب الباباوين ثيودورسين

Btw, I like this photo:

The figure in the center is the Lion of St. Mark the Evangelist.  I like how the Popes sit next to each other with the empty throne, until that day (God grant it soon!) one sits in it.

+1...is there one without the Arabic and English logo?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 03:38:25 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #544 on: February 28, 2013, 03:38:33 PM »

101 minutes until I become a sedevacantist.

So does that mean that already-sedevacantists become just schismatics instead of heretics as well for a bit? Wink

No, they all come into communion via the empty Chair of Peter Wink
Or maybe it means that our communion in the faith is even more fundamental than our communion with the Pope. Just saying.
not what "Pastor Aeternus" says.

Actually it is Unam Sanctam that says that:

"Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman pontiff"
Do you think that Unam Sanctam does not take into account the instances when there is no Pope. There is currently no Pope. Do you think that that means that according to the Catholic Church, I am now damned?

According to some conclavists, yes. (It was a while ago that I read that, so I don't know if I could find it again or tell you which group it was; but I recall part of their rationale for electing a pope was that sede vacante meant everybody going to hell.)
And which ever conclavist argued that is as delusional as anyone else suggesting that the Catholic Church ceased to exist today 8:00 PM Rome time. One of the teachings of the Catholic Church is that the Church is indefectable.
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« Reply #545 on: February 28, 2013, 03:39:26 PM »

Do you think that Unam Sanctam does not take into account the instances when there is no Pope. There is currently no Pope. Do you think that that means that according to the Catholic Church, I am now damned?

My response was to ialmisry's response to your post where you said that unity is by faith, not to the Pope.  It is clear that the Catholic Church teachest that unity is through the Pope alone.  I guess you can say that if a Pope accepts one into communion then there is a guarantee that is a unity of faith.  But still it is through the Pope.  What if the Orthodox say today that they will accept full Communion with the Roman Catholic Church and accept all her teachings as is, but this offer expires in one week.  Do you think anyone in the Roman Catholic Church can take that offer right now?

As for whether you are saved or damned, I don't know.  It wasn't in the context of the discussion and not something I deeply thought about in that context.  I mean, you are asking a person who was Catholic for 36 years and left, if I truly believed that salvation rested on the Roman Pontiff then why did I go to the Orthodox Church?  Maybe try not dying until the next Pope is elected just to have your bases covered Wink
Well then you are simply delusional. If unity were "in the Pope alone" as you suggest, then at this moment, there would be not a single member of the Catholic Church. But as it is, there are still over a billion Catholics worldwide, in spite of the fact that there is no Pope with whom were are in communion.

But you didn't answer my question.  If the Orthodox say we are coming in communion today, who receives us?  Can the Carmelengo recevie us?  Can the Cardinals in council?
I wouldn't doubt that the Bishops/cardinals could find some way to make it happen. It would be a novel situation, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be made to happen.
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« Reply #546 on: February 28, 2013, 03:39:29 PM »

Let me check..... Oh yup. We are still here.  Grin

I don't believe you!  Not until I can put my fingers into your hands and touch your side, I will not believe.
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« Reply #547 on: February 28, 2013, 03:39:34 PM »

so what would latin be for the dual?


Papas is plural. There is no dual in Latin.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 03:43:05 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #548 on: February 28, 2013, 03:40:02 PM »

Let me check..... Oh yup. We are still here.  Grin

I don't believe you!  Not until I can put my fingers into your hands and touch your side, I will not believe.
We all know how Jesus answered that statement.
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« Reply #549 on: February 28, 2013, 03:40:49 PM »

And which ever conclavist argued that is as delusional as anyone else suggesting that the Catholic Church ceased to exist today 8:00 PM Rome time. One of the teachings of the Catholic Church is that the Church is indefectable.

But isn't the Church built on Peter and his successors?  So if there is no successor, the RC Church right now is built on air.
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« Reply #550 on: February 28, 2013, 03:41:03 PM »

so what would latin be for the dual?
(i am in awe at these 2 linguists!)

i love the photo, by the way.
 Smiley  Smiley

(i can smile in the dual!)
 Wink
I'd hate to see a smile not in the dual.
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« Reply #551 on: February 28, 2013, 03:41:14 PM »

Let me check..... Oh yup. We are still here.  Grin

I don't believe you!  Not until I can put my fingers into your hands and touch your side, I will not believe.
We all know how Jesus answered that statement.

Yes, he appeared to Thomas.  I'm waiting...  Wink
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« Reply #552 on: February 28, 2013, 03:42:36 PM »

Let me check..... Oh yup. We are still here.  Grin

I don't believe you!  Not until I can put my fingers into your hands and touch your side, I will not believe.
We all know how Jesus answered that statement.

Yes, he appeared to Thomas.  I'm waiting...  Wink
Well, walk to the nearest Catholic Church, and put your hand in a parishoner's side. See how that works out.  Grin
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« Reply #553 on: February 28, 2013, 03:44:44 PM »

Let me check..... Oh yup. We are still here.  Grin

I don't believe you!  Not until I can put my fingers into your hands and touch your side, I will not believe.
We all know how Jesus answered that statement.
Yeah, "stick your finger in right here."
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« Reply #554 on: February 28, 2013, 03:47:07 PM »

But as it is, there are still over a billion Catholics worldwide, in spite of the fact that there is no Pope with whom were are in communion.

Maybe there are no Catholics, but a billion catechumens.  Grin
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« Reply #555 on: February 28, 2013, 03:54:11 PM »

Never mind Isa...I found the source:

http://www.patriarchateofalexandria.com/index.php?module=news&action=details&id=889
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« Reply #556 on: February 28, 2013, 03:55:09 PM »

And which ever conclavist argued that is as delusional as anyone else suggesting that the Catholic Church ceased to exist today 8:00 PM Rome time. One of the teachings of the Catholic Church is that the Church is indefectable.

But isn't the Church built on Peter and his successors?  So if there is no successor, the RC Church right now is built on air.

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« Reply #557 on: February 28, 2013, 03:59:08 PM »

sorry, didn't see your post fast enough, and I can't get the url of the better picture (no. 2/4).
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« Reply #558 on: February 28, 2013, 04:00:11 PM »

Actually the same can be said of an Eastern Catholic Patriarch/Major Archbishop.  If a new one is elected, he has to send something to Rome to confirm Communion with the Pope.  So technically the Eastern Catholics of that Church are schismatics are soon as their Patriarchate/Major Archbishropic seat is vacant, and until the newly elected sui juris head sends to the Pope that, I forgot what its called.
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« Reply #559 on: February 28, 2013, 04:01:24 PM »

Do you think that Unam Sanctam does not take into account the instances when there is no Pope. There is currently no Pope. Do you think that that means that according to the Catholic Church, I am now damned?

My response was to ialmisry's response to your post where you said that unity is by faith, not to the Pope.  It is clear that the Catholic Church teachest that unity is through the Pope alone.  I guess you can say that if a Pope accepts one into communion then there is a guarantee that is a unity of faith.  But still it is through the Pope.  What if the Orthodox say today that they will accept full Communion with the Roman Catholic Church and accept all her teachings as is, but this offer expires in one week.  Do you think anyone in the Roman Catholic Church can take that offer right now?

As for whether you are saved or damned, I don't know.  It wasn't in the context of the discussion and not something I deeply thought about in that context.  I mean, you are asking a person who was Catholic for 36 years and left, if I truly believed that salvation rested on the Roman Pontiff then why did I go to the Orthodox Church?  Maybe try not dying until the next Pope is elected just to have your bases covered Wink
Well then you are simply delusional. If unity were "in the Pope alone" as you suggest, then at this moment, there would be not a single member of the Catholic Church. But as it is, there are still over a billion Catholics worldwide, in spite of the fact that there is no Pope with whom were are in communion.

But you didn't answer my question.  If the Orthodox say we are coming in communion today, who receives us?  Can the Carmelengo recevie us?  Can the Cardinals in council?
I wouldn't doubt that the Bishops/cardinals could find some way to make it happen. It would be a novel situation, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be made to happen.
after all, mere bishops, they are able to make a super bishop, without involving the sacraments of Christ's Church.
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« Reply #560 on: February 28, 2013, 04:01:46 PM »

Well, walk to the nearest Catholic Church, and put your hand in a parishoner's side. See how that works out.  Grin

But how do I know they are not the real sedevacantists or the liberal pro-aborts?  Grin
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« Reply #561 on: February 28, 2013, 04:02:19 PM »












Found a thread in Tasbeha.org that did it for me  Wink
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« Reply #562 on: February 28, 2013, 04:02:56 PM »

But as it is, there are still over a billion Catholics worldwide, in spite of the fact that there is no Pope with whom were are in communion.

Maybe there are no Catholics, but a billion catechumens.  Grin

Are you all then required to go to RCIA during the Conclave?  Grin
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« Reply #563 on: February 28, 2013, 04:09:18 PM »

The RCC could create an office of coadjutor pope so there would always be an heir apparent.  They could call him the Dolphin or the Prince of Whales.  Grin
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« Reply #564 on: February 28, 2013, 04:12:50 PM »

Isn't that what the Carmelengo becomes during the period of sedevacante?
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« Reply #565 on: February 28, 2013, 04:13:15 PM »

And which ever conclavist argued that is as delusional as anyone else suggesting that the Catholic Church ceased to exist today 8:00 PM Rome time. One of the teachings of the Catholic Church is that the Church is indefectable.

But isn't the Church built on Peter and his successors?  So if there is no successor, the RC Church right now is built on air.

There is a successor.  He just hasn't been revealed yet.  God knows who he is, though, so don't fret, alright?  Maybe Choy is built on air  Grin.  As for the Orthodox coming into the Catholic Church, I'm sure any Catholic priest would happily accommodate y'all.  Wink
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« Reply #566 on: February 28, 2013, 04:14:43 PM »

They could call him the Dolphin or the Prince of Whales.  Grin

France was never ruled by an aquatic animal. It was at times ruled by a dauphin though  Smiley

Well, it is the same word in French, though...
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« Reply #567 on: February 28, 2013, 04:15:57 PM »

Isn't that what the Carmelengo becomes during the period of sedevacante?
Quote
Until a successor Pope can be elected, the Camerlengo serves as acting head of State of the Vatican City. He is not, however, currently responsible for the government of the Catholic Church during a sede vacante. Universi Dominici Gregis placed that task in the hands of the College of Cardinals (although this power of government is extremely limited, being merely enough to allow Church institutions to continue to operate and perform some basic functions without making any definitive decisions or appointments that are normally reserved to other powers delegated by the Pope). The Camerlengo, though, does keep his office during the sede vacante, as opposed to the rest of the Roman Curia, and functions as the executive director of Vatican operations answerable to the College of Cardinals during an interregnum, primarily to carry out the College's decisions with regard to arranging the funeral of the late pope and the events leading up to the conclave. The only other person who keeps his office is the Major Penitentiary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camerlengo_of_the_Holy_Roman_Church
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« Reply #568 on: February 28, 2013, 04:37:15 PM »

They could call him the Dolphin or the Prince of Whales.  Grin

France was never ruled by an aquatic animal. It was at times ruled by a dauphin though  Smiley

Well, it is the same word in French, though...

I know.  I was just having some pun. Cheesy
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« Reply #569 on: February 28, 2013, 04:38:52 PM »

They could call him the Dolphin or the Prince of Whales.  Grin

Don't make me come over there!
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« Reply #570 on: February 28, 2013, 04:40:29 PM »

They could call him the Dolphin or the Prince of Whales.  Grin

Don't make me come over there!

No need.  You're already there.  I, however, am here. Smiley
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« Reply #571 on: February 28, 2013, 04:41:35 PM »

Jokes aside, isn't this period of sedevacante does put into question many claims about the Papacy brought forward by the Roman Catholic Church?  Like my earlier comment about the Church being built on Peter and that Peter only has one successor, what now?  On whom is the Church built on?  And how are the Churches of the Catholic Communion in communion with one another?  How are they "in communion with Rome" if there is no Bishop of Rome?
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« Reply #572 on: February 28, 2013, 04:43:01 PM »

Do you think that Unam Sanctam does not take into account the instances when there is no Pope. There is currently no Pope. Do you think that that means that according to the Catholic Church, I am now damned?

My response was to ialmisry's response to your post where you said that unity is by faith, not to the Pope.  It is clear that the Catholic Church teachest that unity is through the Pope alone.  I guess you can say that if a Pope accepts one into communion then there is a guarantee that is a unity of faith.  But still it is through the Pope.  What if the Orthodox say today that they will accept full Communion with the Roman Catholic Church and accept all her teachings as is, but this offer expires in one week.  Do you think anyone in the Roman Catholic Church can take that offer right now?

As for whether you are saved or damned, I don't know.  It wasn't in the context of the discussion and not something I deeply thought about in that context.  I mean, you are asking a person who was Catholic for 36 years and left, if I truly believed that salvation rested on the Roman Pontiff then why did I go to the Orthodox Church?  Maybe try not dying until the next Pope is elected just to have your bases covered Wink
Well then you are simply delusional. If unity were "in the Pope alone" as you suggest, then at this moment, there would be not a single member of the Catholic Church. But as it is, there are still over a billion Catholics worldwide, in spite of the fact that there is no Pope with whom were are in communion.

Maybe there is no Roman Catholic Church.  Did you check?



Yes, they're still there:

http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm
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« Reply #573 on: February 28, 2013, 04:44:27 PM »

Actually the same can be said of an Eastern Catholic Patriarch/Major Archbishop.  If a new one is elected, he has to send something to Rome to confirm Communion with the Pope.  So technically the Eastern Catholics of that Church are schismatics are soon as their Patriarchate/Major Archbishropic seat is vacant, and until the newly elected sui juris head sends to the Pope that, I forgot what its called.

Schismatics, did you say? So are saying that, when the MP and the ROCOR weren't in full communion, the ROCOR was schismatic? (Or was the MP schismatic?)  Shocked
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« Reply #574 on: February 28, 2013, 04:46:26 PM »

Actually the same can be said of an Eastern Catholic Patriarch/Major Archbishop.  If a new one is elected, he has to send something to Rome to confirm Communion with the Pope.  So technically the Eastern Catholics of that Church are schismatics are soon as their Patriarchate/Major Archbishropic seat is vacant, and until the newly elected sui juris head sends to the Pope that, I forgot what its called.

Schismatics, did you say? So are saying that, when the MP and the ROCOR weren't in full communion, the ROCOR was schismatic? (Or was the MP schismatic?)  Shocked

If you are not in communion, then what are you?  Is there an option B here?
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« Reply #575 on: February 28, 2013, 04:49:21 PM »

Jokes aside, isn't this period of sedevacante does put into question many claims about the Papacy brought forward by the Roman Catholic Church?  Like my earlier comment about the Church being built on Peter and that Peter only has one successor, what now?  On whom is the Church built on?  And how are the Churches of the Catholic Communion in communion with one another?  How are they "in communion with Rome" if there is no Bishop of Rome?

Good question.

One theory I've considered (I forget when, perhaps around the time JPII died) is that when the pope, i.e. the first-ranking bishop, dies, the second ranking bishop (traditionally the EP, back when he was Catholic) automatically becomes the (interim) first-ranking bishop.

But that opens up another can of worms: could he, during that time, order the new election to be cancelled, making himself the (non-interim) pope?
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« Reply #576 on: February 28, 2013, 05:12:21 PM »

Jokes aside, isn't this period of sedevacante does put into question many claims about the Papacy brought forward by the Roman Catholic Church?  Like my earlier comment about the Church being built on Peter and that Peter only has one successor, what now?  On whom is the Church built on?  And how are the Churches of the Catholic Communion in communion with one another?  How are they "in communion with Rome" if there is no Bishop of Rome?

Good question.

One theory I've considered (I forget when, perhaps around the time JPII died) is that when the pope, i.e. the first-ranking bishop, dies, the second ranking bishop (traditionally the EP, back when he was Catholic) automatically becomes the (interim) first-ranking bishop.

But that opens up another can of worms: could he, during that time, order the new election to be cancelled, making himself the (non-interim) pope?

Basically everything comes to a stop.  


http://community.catholic.org/pope/new_pope.php
The Vacancy of the Holy See (Papal Interregnum)
 
The period between the death or resignation of a Pope and the election of his successor, when the See of Peter is vacant, is called the Interregnum. This Latin term means between the reign (of one Pope and another). It is a period governed by papal law, which admits of no changes to Church governance, or to the spiritual or material patrimony of St. Peter, save the election of his successor.

Here is more information, I found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_pope
(scroll down to "Death")

The current regulations regarding a papal interregnum—that is, a sede vacante ("vacant seat")—were promulgated by John Paul II in his 1996 document Universi Dominici Gregis. During the "sede vacante" period, the College of Cardinals is collectively responsible for the government of the Church and of the Vatican itself, under the direction of the Camerlengo of the Holy Roman Church; however, canon law specifically forbids the cardinals from introducing any innovation in the government of the Church during the vacancy of the Holy See. Any decision that requires the assent of the pope has to wait until the new pope has been elected and accepts office.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 05:19:58 PM by Monk Vasyl » Logged

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« Reply #577 on: February 28, 2013, 05:16:22 PM »

Jokes aside, isn't this period of sedevacante does put into question many claims about the Papacy brought forward by the Roman Catholic Church?  Like my earlier comment about the Church being built on Peter and that Peter only has one successor, what now?  On whom is the Church built on?  And how are the Churches of the Catholic Communion in communion with one another?  How are they "in communion with Rome" if there is no Bishop of Rome?

Good question.

One theory I've considered (I forget when, perhaps around the time JPII died) is that when the pope, i.e. the first-ranking bishop, dies, the second ranking bishop (traditionally the EP, back when he was Catholic) automatically becomes the (interim) first-ranking bishop.

But that opens up another can of worms: could he, during that time, order the new election to be cancelled, making himself the (non-interim) pope?

Basically everything comes to a stop. 


http://community.catholic.org/pope/new_pope.php
The Vacancy of the Holy See (Papal Interregnum)
 
The period between the death or resignation of a Pope and the election of his successor, when the See of Peter is vacant, is called the Interregnum. This Latin term means between the reign (of one Pope and another). It is a period governed by papal law, which admits of no changes to Church governance, or to the spiritual or material patrimony of St. Peter, save the election of his successor.

Thanks for that!  Perhaps it goes some way to explaining why I feel totally untroubled and unconcerned by Choy's concerns and by the whole process unfolding before us.  The word "trust" comes to mind.
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« Reply #578 on: February 28, 2013, 05:26:08 PM »

Jokes aside, isn't this period of sedevacante does put into question many claims about the Papacy brought forward by the Roman Catholic Church?  Like my earlier comment about the Church being built on Peter and that Peter only has one successor, what now?  On whom is the Church built on?  And how are the Churches of the Catholic Communion in communion with one another?  How are they "in communion with Rome" if there is no Bishop of Rome?

Good question.

One theory I've considered (I forget when, perhaps around the time JPII died) is that when the pope, i.e. the first-ranking bishop, dies, the second ranking bishop (traditionally the EP, back when he was Catholic) automatically becomes the (interim) first-ranking bishop.

But that opens up another can of worms: could he, during that time, order the new election to be cancelled, making himself the (non-interim) pope?

Basically everything comes to a stop. 


http://community.catholic.org/pope/new_pope.php
The Vacancy of the Holy See (Papal Interregnum)
 
The period between the death or resignation of a Pope and the election of his successor, when the See of Peter is vacant, is called the Interregnum. This Latin term means between the reign (of one Pope and another). It is a period governed by papal law, which admits of no changes to Church governance, or to the spiritual or material patrimony of St. Peter, save the election of his successor.

Thanks for that!  Perhaps it goes some way to explaining why I feel totally untroubled and unconcerned by Choy's concerns and by the whole process unfolding before us.  The word "trust" comes to mind.

It sort of brings to mind that the pope is the temporal head of the Church.  Christ is really the only head of the Church.  During its history, there were times when the Church was without a pope for quite a few years, and look its still here.
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« Reply #579 on: February 28, 2013, 05:30:40 PM »

Interestingly enought, this shows up online:

Without a pope, who's running the Catholic Church?

With Benedict XVI's abdication taking effect Thursday, the Roman Catholic Church has no pope until the conclave of cardinals settles on a new one. Like many other procedures of the church, the rules for running the institution during this period are ancient and little-known. Here are answers to questions you might have about exactly what happens when the papacy changes hands:

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/28/17134063-without-a-pope-whos-running-the-catholic-church?lite&ocid=msnhp&pos=1
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« Reply #580 on: February 28, 2013, 05:31:36 PM »

Jokes aside, isn't this period of sedevacante does put into question many claims about the Papacy brought forward by the Roman Catholic Church?  Like my earlier comment about the Church being built on Peter and that Peter only has one successor, what now?  On whom is the Church built on?  And how are the Churches of the Catholic Communion in communion with one another?  How are they "in communion with Rome" if there is no Bishop of Rome?

Good question.

One theory I've considered (I forget when, perhaps around the time JPII died) is that when the pope, i.e. the first-ranking bishop, dies, the second ranking bishop (traditionally the EP, back when he was Catholic) automatically becomes the (interim) first-ranking bishop.

But that opens up another can of worms: could he, during that time, order the new election to be cancelled, making himself the (non-interim) pope?

Basically everything comes to a stop. 


http://community.catholic.org/pope/new_pope.php
The Vacancy of the Holy See (Papal Interregnum)
 
The period between the death or resignation of a Pope and the election of his successor, when the See of Peter is vacant, is called the Interregnum. This Latin term means between the reign (of one Pope and another). It is a period governed by papal law, which admits of no changes to Church governance, or to the spiritual or material patrimony of St. Peter, save the election of his successor.

Thanks for that!  Perhaps it goes some way to explaining why I feel totally untroubled and unconcerned by Choy's concerns and by the whole process unfolding before us.  The word "trust" comes to mind.

It sort of brings to mind that the pope is the temporal head of the Church.  Christ is really the only head of the Church.  During its history, there were times when the Church was without a pope for quite a few years, and look its still here.

Indeed.  As in so many other instances, we tend to forget that Christ IS the only head of the Church, and always has been, simply because we do not see or hear Him "in the flesh" as it were.
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« Reply #581 on: February 28, 2013, 05:36:32 PM »

And which ever conclavist argued that is as delusional as anyone else suggesting that the Catholic Church ceased to exist today 8:00 PM Rome time. One of the teachings of the Catholic Church is that the Church is indefectable.

But isn't the Church built on Peter and his successors?  So if there is no successor, the RC Church right now is built on air.



The way this thread has gone today, St Peter's isn't the only place that needs a good lightning rod.
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« Reply #582 on: February 28, 2013, 05:38:43 PM »

I'm not Catholic and I'm not planning to become one but in a way I will miss him too. I hope his not going to disappear into the dungeons of Vatican. Has he ever written any kind of biography? I'd love to read one if there is.

The succeeding pope will be the third pope that I see in my lifetime. Man, I feel old now.

You shouldn't.  The average Pope lasts 7.2 years, which means that by 21.6 years, the average person has seen three Popes in office.
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« Reply #583 on: February 28, 2013, 05:40:38 PM »

I'm not Catholic and I'm not planning to become one but in a way I will miss him too. I hope his not going to disappear into the dungeons of Vatican. Has he ever written any kind of biography? I'd love to read one if there is.

The succeeding pope will be the third pope that I see in my lifetime. Man, I feel old now.

You shouldn't.  The average Pope lasts 7.2 years, which means that by 21.6 years, the average person has seen three Popes in office.

Who *is* this "average person", anyway, and what makes him "average"?
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« Reply #584 on: February 28, 2013, 05:42:11 PM »

Jokes aside, isn't this period of sedevacante does put into question many claims about the Papacy brought forward by the Roman Catholic Church?  Like my earlier comment about the Church being built on Peter and that Peter only has one successor, what now?  On whom is the Church built on?  And how are the Churches of the Catholic Communion in communion with one another?  How are they "in communion with Rome" if there is no Bishop of Rome?

Good question.

One theory I've considered (I forget when, perhaps around the time JPII died) is that when the pope, i.e. the first-ranking bishop, dies, the second ranking bishop (traditionally the EP, back when he was Catholic) automatically becomes the (interim) first-ranking bishop.

But that opens up another can of worms: could he, during that time, order the new election to be cancelled, making himself the (non-interim) pope?

Well, it would depend how your statement would be interpreted.  Obviously the Orthodox do not see the EP as anything as a Lt. Pope.  Even if he were to assume an interim "first among equals" role, its not the same as the Western view of the Papacy.

Thing isn, isn't everyone in communion with the Pope in the Catholic ecclesiology?  As opposed to each other?
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