Author Topic: The Pope to resign?!?! / Pope Benedict XVI resigns / Pope set to resign on Feb. 28th  (Read 21165 times)

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Offline Deacon Lance

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As for the Vatican hierarchy, I am aware that the archbishoprick of Rome has been abolished, like the Patriarchate of the West, in favor of the "supreme pontiff."

No it has not.

Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the State of Vatican City, Servant of the Servants of God.  From Annuario Pontificio, Libreria Editrice Vaticana, p. 23. ISBN of the 2012 edition: 978-88-209-8722-0.
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Offline choy

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As for the Vatican hierarchy, I am aware that the archbishoprick of Rome has been abolished, like the Patriarchate of the West, in favor of the "supreme pontiff."

No it has not.

Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the State of Vatican City, Servant of the Servants of God.  From Annuario Pontificio, Libreria Editrice Vaticana, p. 23. ISBN of the 2012 edition: 978-88-209-8722-0.

Yup, there is another bishop who acts as administrator but runs the Archdiocese in the name of the Pope.  Also, Primate does not have any meaning in the Roman Catholic Church anymore.  There are no longer national synods that needs a Primate.  There are Episcopal Conferences which usually includes Eastern Catholic bishops if they are in the territory, but it is not synodal like it was before.  Basically, all bishops are equal under the Pope from any perspective.

Offline ialmisry

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As for the Vatican hierarchy, I am aware that the archbishoprick of Rome has been abolished, like the Patriarchate of the West, in favor of the "supreme pontiff."

No it has not.

Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the State of Vatican City, Servant of the Servants of God.  From Annuario Pontificio, Libreria Editrice Vaticana, p. 23. ISBN of the 2012 edition: 978-88-209-8722-0.
Choy got it right.

The Vatican's "bishop of Rome" exists de jure but not de facto, while its "Patriarchate of the West" doesn't exist de jure but only de facto.
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Offline rakovsky

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As for the Vatican hierarchy, I am aware that the archbishoprick of Rome has been abolished, like the Patriarchate of the West, in favor of the "supreme pontiff."

No it has not.

Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the State of Vatican City, Servant of the Servants of God.  From Annuario Pontificio, Libreria Editrice Vaticana, p. 23. ISBN of the 2012 edition: 978-88-209-8722-0.

Yup, there is another bishop who acts as administrator but runs the Archdiocese in the name of the Pope.  Also, Primate does not have any meaning in the Roman Catholic Church anymore.  There are no longer national synods that needs a Primate.  There are Episcopal Conferences which usually includes Eastern Catholic bishops if they are in the territory, but it is not synodal like it was before.  Basically, all bishops are equal under the Pope from any perspective.
Choy,

This may not be completely true. They are all under the Pope as his subordinates. However, some eastern Cath. Churches have "Patriarchs" that have subordinated to the Pope. In that case, I am not sure whether they have more or less authority than RC Bishops. However, bishops in eastern Cath. churches would seem to have to obey BOTH their patriarch AND the Pope.


Offline minasoliman

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Smack in the middle of Great Lent.  Perhaps that is very good timing.

Does the Pope get to eat meat during Lent?  He already gave up the Papacy for Lent.

You made a funny!  :D

A meme done by your's truly:
http://m.quickmeme.com/meme/3syrr7/
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Offline choy

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Choy,

This may not be completely true. They are all under the Pope as his subordinates. However, some eastern Cath. Churches have "Patriarchs" that have subordinated to the Pope. In that case, I am not sure whether they have more or less authority than RC Bishops. However, bishops in eastern Cath. churches would seem to have to obey BOTH their patriarch AND the Pope.

In my experience, EC Churches still maintain that synodal ecclesiology where a synod makes the actual decisions and not the Patriarch as some sort of mini-Pope for the sui juris Church.  At least that is how I see the UGCC operate, everything is done by a synod and His Beatitude Sviatoslav proclaims the decision.  I think even the CCEO, which is Roman in origin, does not accord sole authority over a sui juris exclusively to its Primate, but in cases where it says it depends on the particular Church to determine how a particular canon is implemented, it is always stated that it is up to the synod, not the Patriarch.  Whereas an Episcopal Conference is not a synod.  Individual Bishops aren't even bound to follow any decision or decree by the Conference, they can freely opt in or out at their own whim.  An example here is the posture of receiving Communion (Episcopal Conferences need to ask for permission to allow Communion in the hand).  There are individual bishops who opted not to allow CITH in their diocese even though their Episcopal Conference has the Vatican's approval to allow CITH and has thus agreed to apply it.

Offline Sybok

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Seriously, since when can the Romanians simply parachute someone in and 'take' over or claim back the See. And even more odd that such a pretence, if indeed that were ever the Romanians intent, should come from the ecumenist Romanian Patriarchate.

didnt they "parachute in" not too long ago their own people in Israel, to the chagrin of the Greek Orth. Patriarchate of Jerusalem and ROCOR?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 09:12:39 PM by Sybok »

Offline Sybok

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Does the Pope's resignation reflect a more Western, CEO model of ministry, as compared to the Orthodox, more 'fatherly', model of ministry?

Why would it?
In other words, does Orthodoxy see it as part of its tradition, the idea that patriarchs or bishops can resign voluntarily?


They can and did.

Anyone in particular come to mind?
St Photius resigned, there have been other ecumenical patriarchs who have done so too though i cant recall off the top of my head names

Offline KShaft

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So, will the next Pope be named Peter?    :-\

Or Simon.

Or "the Rock"  :D   

I bet if the Rock becomes the Pope alot will convert  ;)



LMAO literally man... oh shit....

Offline KShaft

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Re: Pope set to resign on Feb. 28th
« Reply #324 on: February 12, 2013, 10:27:12 PM »
A picture of the Lightning Bolt striking St. Peter's dome at the Vatican was just shown on Channel 10, ABC, on San Diego.

Why did the lightning bolt strike the Vatican soon after the Pope's resignation? Note that a lightning bolt also struck the Vatican at the Council of Vatican I, when the doctrines of Papal Infallibility and Supremacy were declared.

From: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/lightning-strikes-vatican-on-the-day-the-pope-1704295

Maybe the Pope yelled, "By the power of Infallibility!!!  I have universal supreme ordinary jurisdictional power!!!"



Wow you got me again... LOL

Offline rakovsky

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Re: The Pope to resign?!?! / Pope Benedict XVI resigns
« Reply #325 on: February 12, 2013, 10:29:58 PM »
When I first saw the thread's title, I thought it was a hoax. Yes, Wow.

My Orthodox priest once told me the Pope could never retire and could only be disposed, because a bishop retains his rank, and having a former pope around would create two Popes whose position was of infallible authority. For example, we refer to Met. Jonah, even though he resigned. As evidence of this, my priest, who attended Catholic school, pointed to how old Pope John Paul II was as pope, and even died in the position.

I understand that this contradiction of "simultaneous" popes might be explained away, since one no longer exercizes authority, but it is enough of an issue (Jesus and St Peter didn't "retire"), that retirement is extremely anomalous: especially when his mind still works as well as Pope Benedict's does. Pope Benedict was not a Pope of "change", and this is a big change.

I don't believe the story that the Pope simply retirement due to old age, because that basically doesn't happen, particularly in the case of a conservative Pope like Pope Benedict with a sound mind. The search should begin for the real reason.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 10:31:25 PM by rakovsky »

Offline KShaft

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[
Tough, I heard that he was a proponent of liberal beliefs ( as head of the Pontifical council for Justice and Peace they recently issued a statement calling for world currency and government).  As a European American I'm proud of my culture,  religion,  and heritage and wish to see those things preservfor posterity.  If that's not PC to some people, then too bad.  I'm not a very PC person and make no bones about it. People of all races and colors are welcome in the Big Ten of the Roman Church, But people like myself would like to see that shirt continue to be becenter in Europe and certainly not become the religious equivalent to the Obama administration and all its policies.
quote author=Asteriktos link=topic=49883.msg880442#msg880442 date=1360648650]
I hope that its not that African Cardinal ( Peter Tongo something)
I heard rumors that he might be an Afro Marxist eho would either favor third world nations over the desperately needed re evangelization of European nations.  He could also try to liberalize or Africanize the RC liturgy and theology / morality.  We need to reme.mber as Belloc said Europe is the faith and vis a versa. Other nations have the place but we should always take care of our mother first

You disgust me.
[/quote]

You should be ashamed of being white and developing the entirety of Christian culture and civilization around the western world!!!!
Because Latin America, Africa, and the Middle East are just awesome. Try objectivity sometime, oh no wait thats not PC. I mean feign indignation.... Oh OH, Racist!!! Oh! Oh! Oh...Bigot!!! OH.....

Offline biro

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Um, not all Christians are white.
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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See , there was something to those Mayans and their calendar after all.  ::)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 10:53:55 PM by Sinful Hypocrite »
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Offline dzheremi

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I'm as non-PC as the next thinking person, but that reply by KShaft just seems like a weak defense of something that was rightly pointed out to be incredibly ignorant and repulsive. Just like being PC ought not to be an excuse to stifle everyone's right to an opinion (though it sure seems to be exactly that), being anti-PC ought not be a means to evade criticism of your dumb opinion once it has been pointed out to be ridiculous (though, again, it sure seems to be exactly that).

But maybe I'm just a PC "Afro-Marxist", whatever the hell that is... (if Marxism itself is the problem, why put "Afro" before it? Is Marxism objectively worse in Africa than in Cuba, Laos, or -- shock, horror -- some place where mostly white European people live, like all the European states of the former Eastern bloc?)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 10:58:59 PM by dzheremi »

Offline Peter J

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I don't know, this one hit me pretty hard today, I liked Benedict much and he fought the good fight for Orthodoxy (Not EO people, so spare me) and brought much back for tradition including the TLM and probably tirelessly fought the modernists and liberals investing the Vatican like rats, that it probably took it's toll on him. Who knows what we're going to be subjected to in replacing him.


The Church has serious issues in these times and already I'm hearing this like it's some kind of a popularity contest like an American election with a bunch of brainless stooges controlling the levers moaning and wailing about "diversity" and "change".

I've had about enough of both, I don't think I can take any more.

These are dire times, popes just don't "resign" like this.

?

Have times changed so much since 8 years ago (when the last papal election happened)?
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Offline biro

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Again, the Pope is 85. It doesn't seem that tough to figure out that he should be able to see a doctor if he needs one.
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Offline KShaft

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Um, not all Christians are white.

I hadnt noticed. Thank you for enlightening me sir...

Offline serb1389

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Again, the Pope is 85. It doesn't seem that tough to figure out that he should be able to see a doctor if he needs one.

Sorry...totally lost you here.  why can't he see a doctor...pope or not?
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Offline biro

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Again, the Pope is 85. It doesn't seem that tough to figure out that he should be able to see a doctor if he needs one.

Sorry...totally lost you here.  why can't he see a doctor...pope or not?

People seem surprised that he would step down for health reasons. I just thought I'd point out that an 85-year-old man may very well have serious reasons to seek medical attention; not everything is a conspiracy or a cover-up.
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Offline rakovsky

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It has been 600 years since the last resignation by a Pope.

Just a few days before, the Knights of Malta had their 900th anniversary in Rome. Despite being called the Knights of Malta, they are not actually the government of Malta:
Quote
The order’s international legal status is entirely unique, a sovereign entity that prints its own stamps, coins, license plates and passports, yet has no territory over which it rules... Napoleon expelled the order from Malta in 1798
http://life.nationalpost.com/2013/02/09/peculiar-900-year-old-order-of-the-knights-of-malta-celebrates-anniversary-with-vatican-mass/

Quote
Dr. Robert Moynihan, editor of Inside the Vatican magazine, is no conspiracy theorist. He’s THE quasi-official Vatican-embedded journalist and commentator [writes]:

On Saturday, I [attended] a funeral Mass in St. Peter’s Basilica for a cardinal who died last week. Pope Benedict was scheduled to attend, but at the very last minute, he canceled his attendance. This was an indication to me already Saturday evening that he was unusually tired (he had spent several hours that monring (sic) with the Order of the Knights of Malta). Normally he would have been present at a cardinal’s funeral.
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/02/11/was-pope-benedict-fired-by-the-knights-of-malta/
Considering the organization's importance, it seems the meeting may have had something to do with the resignation that came soon after.

Offline biro

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Oh boy.

It seems people will believe whatever they want to believe.

I figure this'll get pretty silly in a hurry, just because people want to believe in something more complicated and weird.

Occam's Razor, anyone?

I don't mean to be offensive, but as he's 85, he may not have long to live. As such, maybe he just wants to go to hospice or something. Not so intricate as other theories, but far more likely to be true than something else.

Next they're going to drag in Opus Dei, and then why not Dan Brown?
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Offline dzheremi

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I thought he was retiring to a monastery? I guess that could be seen as a kind of hospice...

Anyway, I agree. There's nothing fishy about this that I can see. It seems that people are just freaking out because this hasn't happened in 600 years or so, so it's a historic and somewhat shocking/confusing situation.

Offline rakovsky

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"Historical evidence for papal resignations is limited, especially if one eliminates resignations that may have been forced.

Clement I (92?-101): Epiphanius asserted that Clement gave up the pontificate to Linus for the sake of peace and became pope again after the death of Cletus.

...(LIST)

Celestine V (1294): A hermit, elected at age of 80 and overwhelmed by the office, resigned. He was imprisoned by his successor.

Gregory XII (1406-15): Resigned at request of Council of Constance to help end the Great Western Schism."
Good point, with your list, Jetavan. It shows how unusual it is, and that there could be some issue with others involved. You made a good point too:
Quote
In Light of the World, Pope Benedict responded unambiguously to a question about whether a pope could resign: "Yes. ... under some circumstances, also an obligation to resign."

It struck me when reading this list that he was the most similar to Pope Celestine V's situation.

And Iaonnis Climacus posts:
Quote
"Back on April 29, 2009, Pope Benedict XVI did something rather striking, but which went largely unnoticed.

He stopped off in Aquila, Italy, and visited the tomb of an obscure medieval Pope named St. Celestine V (1215-1296). After a brief prayer, he left his pallium, the symbol of his own episcopal authority as Bishop of Rome, on top of Celestine's tomb!

Fifteen months later, on July 4, 2010, Benedict went out of his way again, this time to visit and pray in the cathedral of Sulmona, near Rome, before the relics of this same saint, Celestine V.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 11:44:32 PM by rakovsky »

Offline That person

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You should be ashamed of being white and developing the entirety of Christian culture and civilization around the western world!!!!

Oh come on. If you're willing to take responsibility for everything a white person has ever done, much less exaggerate these actions to such an outrageous extent, you certainly had better feel some shame.

But yeah, all the "black people are terrifying posts" are getting pretty old, and churning my stomach just a tad.
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Offline choy

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Again, the Pope is 85. It doesn't seem that tough to figure out that he should be able to see a doctor if he needs one.

Sorry...totally lost you here.  why can't he see a doctor...pope or not?

People seem surprised that he would step down for health reasons. I just thought I'd point out that an 85-year-old man may very well have serious reasons to seek medical attention; not everything is a conspiracy or a cover-up.

My fear here is that there is perhaps a deeper medical problem that remains undisclosed.

Offline Cymbyz

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Congestive heart failure?  I have that; some of the symptoms are similar to what seems to be troubling Pope Benedict.  The onset can be gradual, sometimes punctuated with "heart attacks" (episodes of severe pulmonary edema).  It's something people die with as often as they die of it.
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Offline lubeltri

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I'm also sorry to see him go...  :(

From his days as a Cardinal:

Lamenting not having the spare time to visit Rome or read anything else but theology.


The Church is not a democracy - an interesting talk in Italian.

Vespers in the Chartreuse of Serra San Bruno in October 2011 - a beautiful sermon from 56' onward. Speaks loads about where his heart is. Unfortunately, no English subtitles here either.




Thank you for these beautiful videos! The third one brought tears to my eyes.

Offline choy

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Congestive heart failure?  I have that; some of the symptoms are similar to what seems to be troubling Pope Benedict.  The onset can be gradual, sometimes punctuated with "heart attacks" (episodes of severe pulmonary edema).  It's something people die with as often as they die of it.

I don't know, but perhaps it may be revealed after a successor is appointed.  Who knows.

Offline Charles Martel

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Um, not all Christians are white.
Um, most aren't "white".
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

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[
Tough, I heard that he was a proponent of liberal beliefs ( as head of the Pontifical council for Justice and Peace they recently issued a statement calling for world currency and government).  As a European American I'm proud of my culture,  religion,  and heritage and wish to see those things preservfor posterity.  If that's not PC to some people, then too bad.  I'm not a very PC person and make no bones about it. People of all races and colors are welcome in the Big Ten of the Roman Church, But people like myself would like to see that shirt continue to be becenter in Europe and certainly not become the religious equivalent to the Obama administration and all its policies.
quote author=Asteriktos link=topic=49883.msg880442#msg880442 date=1360648650]
I hope that its not that African Cardinal ( Peter Tongo something)
I heard rumors that he might be an Afro Marxist eho would either favor third world nations over the desperately needed re evangelization of European nations.  He could also try to liberalize or Africanize the RC liturgy and theology / morality.  We need to reme.mber as Belloc said Europe is the faith and vis a versa. Other nations have the place but we should always take care of our mother first

You disgust me.

You should be ashamed of being white and developing the entirety of Christian culture and civilization around the western world!!!!
Because Latin America, Africa, and the Middle East are just awesome. Try objectivity sometime, oh no wait thats not PC. I mean feign indignation.... Oh OH, Racist!!! Oh! Oh! Oh...Bigot!!! OH.....
[/quote] Yes I know, this hysteria gets old after a while.

You can't even make a simple observation without some people having some type Pavlonian-dog type of reaction by salivating and moaning and wailing about " waycism!". This kind of meme is dug deep in their brain which cancels out all capability of critical thought.

I just ignore it these days and move on, nothing to see (or hear) here.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

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I don't know, this one hit me pretty hard today, I liked Benedict much and he fought the good fight for Orthodoxy (Not EO people, so spare me) and brought much back for tradition including the TLM and probably tirelessly fought the modernists and liberals investing the Vatican like rats, that it probably took it's toll on him. Who knows what we're going to be subjected to in replacing him.


The Church has serious issues in these times and already I'm hearing this like it's some kind of a popularity contest like an American election with a bunch of brainless stooges controlling the levers moaning and wailing about "diversity" and "change".

I've had about enough of both, I don't think I can take any more.

These are dire times, popes just don't "resign" like this.

?

Have times changed so much since 8 years ago (when the last papal election happened)?
Things have been changing for over forty years.

Now that some of the old hippies and liberal guard starts dying off they're getting more desperate to keep the staus quo.

Tradition and truth are a powerful force they can't deal with.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Congestive heart failure?  I have that; some of the symptoms are similar to what seems to be troubling Pope Benedict.  The onset can be gradual, sometimes punctuated with "heart attacks" (episodes of severe pulmonary edema).  It's something people die with as often as they die of it.

Fwiw...

"The pope is well and his soul is serene. He did not resign the pontificate because he is ill but because of the fragility that comes with old age," Lombardi said...

-- Source
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Offline Clemente

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Oh boy.

It seems people will believe whatever they want to believe.

I figure this'll get pretty silly in a hurry, just because people want to believe in something more complicated and weird.

Occam's Razor, anyone?

I don't mean to be offensive, but as he's 85, he may not have long to live. As such, maybe he just wants to go to hospice or something. Not so intricate as other theories, but far more likely to be true than something else.

Next they're going to drag in Opus Dei, and then why not Dan Brown?

I was thinking of Opus Dei as well. Let's forget the conspiracy theories.

Offline Kerdy

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I read today the Vatican confirmed the Pope has had a pacemaker for several years and recently had it replaced.  This would appear to be consistent with his reasoning to retire.

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I read today the Vatican confirmed the Pope has had a pacemaker for several years and recently had it replaced.  This would appear to be consistent with his reasoning to retire.

I think being 85 and being asked to run such an organisation would be just a lot to handle.  Meetings, travel, meetings, press releases, press meetings, meeting the faithful, since he is the last absolute monarch in europe and head of a state then meeting heads of state etc... He probably just wants to spend time with his brother and to relax. 

Offline Adela

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Pope John Paul II's legacy speaks to the value of life in all stages, and the value of redemptive suffering (which I admit I don't understand very well or how it relates to Eastern Orthodox theology.)   Pope Benedict, however, had a different mission, perhaps to stabilize the Church and keep it safe for the next Pope.  Also, being German, he probably values efficiency and doesn't see how he can be very efficient in declining health.  After riding on German trains as a child and then getting on a Yugoslavian train to go into communist Yugoslavia to visit relatives, it was very clear that Germans are an extremely efficient people and likethings precise and orderly. ( If their trains are a window into their psyche.)  


I read today the Vatican confirmed the Pope has had a pacemaker for several years and recently had it replaced.  This would appear to be consistent with his reasoning to retire.

I think being 85 and being asked to run such an organisation would be just a lot to handle.  Meetings, travel, meetings, press releases, press meetings, meeting the faithful, since he is the last absolute monarch in europe and head of a state then meeting heads of state etc... He probably just wants to spend time with his brother and to relax.  
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 04:26:03 PM by Adela »

Offline Ansgar

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If their trains are a window into their psyche.

In this case, they definately are. Germans ( and, I think, northern europeans in general) values efficiency and accuracy very highly.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 04:54:59 PM by Ansgar »
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Offline Kerdy

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I read today the Vatican confirmed the Pope has had a pacemaker for several years and recently had it replaced.  This would appear to be consistent with his reasoning to retire.

I think being 85 and being asked to run such an organisation would be just a lot to handle.  Meetings, travel, meetings, press releases, press meetings, meeting the faithful, since he is the last absolute monarch in europe and head of a state then meeting heads of state etc... He probably just wants to spend time with his brother and to relax. 

He has always looked tired, but more so recently. 

Offline choy

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I read today the Vatican confirmed the Pope has had a pacemaker for several years and recently had it replaced.  This would appear to be consistent with his reasoning to retire.

I think being 85 and being asked to run such an organisation would be just a lot to handle.  Meetings, travel, meetings, press releases, press meetings, meeting the faithful, since he is the last absolute monarch in europe and head of a state then meeting heads of state etc... He probably just wants to spend time with his brother and to relax. 

He has always looked tired, but more so recently. 

I would be too if I had to deal with the SSPX who can't make up their mind, or deliberately stalling.

Offline Papist

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I read today the Vatican confirmed the Pope has had a pacemaker for several years and recently had it replaced.  This would appear to be consistent with his reasoning to retire.

I think being 85 and being asked to run such an organisation would be just a lot to handle.  Meetings, travel, meetings, press releases, press meetings, meeting the faithful, since he is the last absolute monarch in europe and head of a state then meeting heads of state etc... He probably just wants to spend time with his brother and to relax. 

He has always looked tired, but more so recently. 

I would be too if I had to deal with the SSPX who can't make up their mind, or deliberately stalling.
You certainly have it out for these guys. Though, yes, I agree. In this particular situation, they are being overly stubborn. Though, given their fear of the state of certain diocese in the Church, I understand why. If I were a traditionalist, say in Boston, I would be very careful.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline choy

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You certainly have it out for these guys. Though, yes, I agree. In this particular situation, they are being overly stubborn. Though, given their fear of the state of certain diocese in the Church, I understand why. If I were a traditionalist, say in Boston, I would be very careful.

Definitely, and I'm not denying or hiding it.  I personally think they are responsible for the problems of the RChurch today as much as the liberals are.  See, the straight and narrow path is in the middle, the liberals went too far left, and the traditionalists went too far right.  I hate it when people say, "well, they're better than the liberals."  They're both wrong.  Not because one position is wrong means that taking the extreme opposite position becomes right.  The Church has gone through many trials through history, just look at the 7 Ecumenical Councils.  I can't recall any saint that defended Orthodoxy that displayed the hubris that the SSPX and most other traditional groups are displaying.  I mean, the RCChurch has the FSSP.  The SSPX is completely expendible.

Offline Papist

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You certainly have it out for these guys. Though, yes, I agree. In this particular situation, they are being overly stubborn. Though, given their fear of the state of certain diocese in the Church, I understand why. If I were a traditionalist, say in Boston, I would be very careful.

Definitely, and I'm not denying or hiding it.  I personally think they are responsible for the problems of the RChurch today as much as the liberals are.  See, the straight and narrow path is in the middle, the liberals went too far left, and the traditionalists went too far right.  I hate it when people say, "well, they're better than the liberals."  They're both wrong.  Not because one position is wrong means that taking the extreme opposite position becomes right.  The Church has gone through many trials through history, just look at the 7 Ecumenical Councils.  I can't recall any saint that defended Orthodoxy that displayed the hubris that the SSPX and most other traditional groups are displaying.  I mean, the RCChurch has the FSSP.  The SSPX is completely expendible.
How do you feel about groups like the Old Believers, Old Calanderists, etc. ?
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.