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Author Topic: SVOTS-University of Bucharest Agreement  (Read 785 times) Average Rating: 0
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« on: March 04, 2013, 02:02:31 PM »

"Seminary Dean Signs Cooperative Agreement with Faculty of Orthodox Theology in Romania
24–25 February 2013

At the invitation of His Eminence Nicolae, archbishop of the Romanian Orthodox Archdiocese in the Americas, The Very Rev. Dr. John Behr, dean of St. Vladimir's Seminary (SVOTS) traveled to Bucharest to sign a cooperative agreement between SVOTS and the Faculty of Orthodox Theology, University of Bucharest. His visit, blessed by His Beatitude Daniel, archbishop of Bucharest, metropolitan of Muntenia and Dobrudgea, locum tenens of the throne of Caesarea of Cappadocia, patriarch of Romania, began on the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee when he celebrated the Divine Liturgy in the Patriarchal Cathedral of Ss. Constantine and Helen."

Read the rest at http://www.svots.edu/headlines/dean-behr-signs-cooperative-agreement-faculty-orthodox-theology-romania

This is part of SVOTS Strategic Plan to establish an International Center of Orthodox Christian Studies, and the second cooperative agreement. For the details of the first agreement with the University of Belgrade see
http://www.svots.edu/headlines/serbian-house-studies-be-founded-st-vladimir%E2%80%99s-seminary%20

The framework for the St Nicholai of Ohrid and Zicha and St Iustin of Chelije Serbian House of Studies at SVOTS may be read at http://www.svots.edu/sites/default/files/agreement_with_serbians.pdf
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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2013, 12:59:37 AM »

How is that bishop the Locum Tenens of Cappadocia?! 
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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2013, 01:06:13 AM »

How is that bishop the Locum Tenens of Cappadocia?! 
Since the 18th century or so when the occupants of that see, then part of the patriarchate of C-ple, bought it from the Phanar.
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« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2013, 01:25:17 AM »

yah that's what i'm beginning to read from the internet.  Although I came accross another article that was saying that this transfer of titles was part of the reason why Romanians really consider themselves "romans". 
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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2013, 01:30:56 AM »

yah that's what i'm beginning to read from the internet.  Although I came accross another article that was saying that this transfer of titles was part of the reason why Romanians really consider themselves "romans". 
Wher did you read that? Transfer of what titles? The Caesarea one? That doesn't even enter the equation. The only reason to claim a link to the Roman world is the neo- Latin language they speak. And that has been noticed ever since the first Italian travelers crossed the territories inhabited by Romanians in the 16th century.
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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2013, 02:06:43 AM »

yah that's what i'm beginning to read from the internet.  Although I came accross another article that was saying that this transfer of titles was part of the reason why Romanians really consider themselves "romans".  
Holy Constantine and Justinian may have been born in present day Serbia, Father, but they were Romanians.

If it was a matter of title of Caesarea of Cappadocia, they would consider themselves Greeks and Armenians.
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« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2013, 07:41:34 AM »

yah that's what i'm beginning to read from the internet.  Although I came accross another article that was saying that this transfer of titles was part of the reason why Romanians really consider themselves "romans".  
Holy Constantine and Justinian may have been born in present day Serbia, Father, but they were Romanians.

If it was a matter of title of Caesarea of Cappadocia, they would consider themselves Greeks and Armenians.

Also we should notice that in the Strategikon of Kekaumenos in the 11th century, it is claimed that vlachs descend from the romans, and came from north Serbia unto Thessaly in Greece:

http://books.google.fr/books?id=SK7Yy6KAUCYC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=Strategikon+Kekaumenos+vlachs&source=bl&ots=jdK1QildYQ&sig=93RaqKYS25esDqdLGYYTgRHRnBs&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=bdk1UeuTJsmNOP-sgIAF&ved=0CGIQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Strategikon%20Kekaumenos%20vlachs&f=false

It also mentions that they are said to have come long time ago from italy(because of the latin language they spoke, and we romanians still speak a latin language today).

Also one can read the study from Banescu in french, "I. Autour de Kekaumenos.":
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/rebyz_0766-5598_1948_num_6_1_981

So Romanians(i include also aromanians in it) can legitimately claim a link with St Justinian or st Constantin. Not in the sense of modern state Romania,  but in the sense of a continuous latin speaking people in Eastern Europe. Just like st John Cassian is sometimes called the roman, sometimes the romanian.
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« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2013, 08:53:09 AM »

I think that is fascinating. Only among the Orthodox though could such a topic arouse passion, anger and resentment though.  Wink
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« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2013, 09:43:49 AM »

I think that is fascinating. Only among the Orthodox though could such a topic arouse passion, anger and resentment though.  Wink

Chuckle. Well, similar arguments over similar topics abound on the history forum of which I am a member. Some topics are just that way; Orthodox or not, when nationality images/claims come into play, most reason departs.
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« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2013, 10:50:45 AM »

yah that's what i'm beginning to read from the internet.  Although I came accross another article that was saying that this transfer of titles was part of the reason why Romanians really consider themselves "romans". 
Wher did you read that? Transfer of what titles? The Caesarea one? That doesn't even enter the equation. The only reason to claim a link to the Roman world is the neo- Latin language they speak. And that has been noticed ever since the first Italian travelers crossed the territories inhabited by Romanians in the 16th century.

I should have linked it yesterday, I've lost my history on my browser so I can't go back & figure it out.  Sorry!
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« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2013, 08:34:05 AM »

yah that's what i'm beginning to read from the internet.  Although I came accross another article that was saying that this transfer of titles was part of the reason why Romanians really consider themselves "romans". 
Wher did you read that? Transfer of what titles? The Caesarea one? That doesn't even enter the equation. The only reason to claim a link to the Roman world is the neo- Latin language they speak. And that has been noticed ever since the first Italian travelers crossed the territories inhabited by Romanians in the 16th century.

It has been noticed well before that in the 11th century by Kekaumenos, cf my earlier post.
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« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2013, 12:20:26 PM »

God knows Romania could use better theological and catechetical schools. I believe Romanian Orthodoxy is split between two extremes: Romanised(from RCC) and extremist, triumphalist, Romophob and Reformophob. I saw Rev. Dr John Bear on Trinitas Tv and I really liked him.  He looks like an equilibrated, schooled,down to earth and kind man. His answers were really equilibrated even if some of them made the moderator clench his nose.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 12:32:39 PM by Virtual Paradise » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2013, 12:39:49 PM »

God knows Romania could use better theological and catechetical schools. I believe Romanian Orthodoxy is split between two extremes: Romanised(from RCC) and extremist, triumphalist, Romophob and Reformophob. I saw Rev. Dr John Bear on Trinitas Tv and I really liked him.  He looks like an equilibrated, schooled,down to earth and kind man. His answers were really equilibrated even if some of them made the moderator clench his nose.


Your belief in no way matches my experience of over a decade in the Romanian church, plus half a decade's experience of looking in from the outside prior. The Romanian bishops, priests and monks I've known have been some of the most genuine and devout Orthodox Christians I have ever met and the supposed Roman Catholic influences that people often spout about are almost always overblown when they even exist at all, whether we're talking of lay folk or clergy. Of course there are some extremists (on both ends of the spectrum) but the vast majority are anything but - much like those in every other Orthodox church so far as I can tell. On what do you base your opinion exactly?

James
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« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2013, 12:57:26 PM »

God knows Romania could use better theological and catechetical schools. I believe Romanian Orthodoxy is split between two extremes: Romanised(from RCC) and extremist, triumphalist, Romophob and Reformophob. I saw Rev. Dr John Bear on Trinitas Tv and I really liked him.  He looks like an equilibrated, schooled,down to earth and kind man. His answers were really equilibrated even if some of them made the moderator clench his nose.


There is a need for reform?
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« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2013, 01:11:07 PM »

God knows Romania could use better theological and catechetical schools. I believe Romanian Orthodoxy is split between two extremes: Romanised(from RCC) and extremist, triumphalist, Romophob and Reformophob. I saw Rev. Dr John Bear on Trinitas Tv and I really liked him.  He looks like an equilibrated, schooled,down to earth and kind man. His answers were really equilibrated even if some of them made the moderator clench his nose.


Your belief in no way matches my experience of over a decade in the Romanian church, plus half a decade's experience of looking in from the outside prior. The Romanian bishops, priests and monks I've known have been some of the most genuine and devout Orthodox Christians I have ever met and the supposed Roman Catholic influences that people often spout about are almost always overblown when they even exist at all, whether we're talking of lay folk or clergy. Of course there are some extremists (on both ends of the spectrum) but the vast majority are anything but - much like those in every other Orthodox church so far as I can tell. On what do you base your opinion exactly?

James

I think the vast majority of practicant Romanian Orthodox are extremists and triumphalists, esspecially those who finish Theological Schools. Those are Romophob and Reformophob demonizing absolutely everything that has to do with those two branches of Christianity. Other laymen are ignorant and Romanised(even in areas where Romanism, eastern catholicism did not theoretically reach, like Moldova). They can't make the difference between Original Sin and Ancestral Sin, they believe in Penal Atonement, and others as such. My opinion is that the minority are genuine Orthodox Christians, and often persecuted by the extremists.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 01:12:07 PM by Virtual Paradise » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2013, 03:03:39 PM »

i have to agree to a point with virtual paradise, as i have met quite a few 'orthodox' romanians who are not sure if they believe in the existence of God, not to mention everything else that is not orthodox about their beliefs.
but there is change on the way, i believe.

jmbejdl's friends and other devout romanian orthodox Christians are praying for and working for change in the direction of strong belief and kind behaviour towards outsiders.
i realise my view point is skewed, as most of my romanian friends are protestants ('sectarians' / 'unbelievers' according to many orthodox Christians). they, similarly label the orthodox as 'pagan' and 'idol worshippers'.
i take care to correct both of these views whenever i can (i would like to label them 'extreme', but think 'common' is a more accurate adjective).
but i do have orthodox friends who are not so prejucided, and a protestant pastor friend who has a masters degree in theology from an orthodox seminary.

may God's love fill all the romanian churches and shine the light of orthodox Christianity everywhere.
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« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2013, 04:19:19 AM »

God knows Romania could use better theological and catechetical schools. I believe Romanian Orthodoxy is split between two extremes: Romanised(from RCC) and extremist, triumphalist, Romophob and Reformophob. I saw Rev. Dr John Bear on Trinitas Tv and I really liked him.  He looks like an equilibrated, schooled,down to earth and kind man. His answers were really equilibrated even if some of them made the moderator clench his nose.


Your belief in no way matches my experience of over a decade in the Romanian church, plus half a decade's experience of looking in from the outside prior. The Romanian bishops, priests and monks I've known have been some of the most genuine and devout Orthodox Christians I have ever met and the supposed Roman Catholic influences that people often spout about are almost always overblown when they even exist at all, whether we're talking of lay folk or clergy. Of course there are some extremists (on both ends of the spectrum) but the vast majority are anything but - much like those in every other Orthodox church so far as I can tell. On what do you base your opinion exactly?

James

I think the vast majority of practicant Romanian Orthodox are extremists and triumphalists, esspecially those who finish Theological Schools. Those are Romophob and Reformophob demonizing absolutely everything that has to do with those two branches of Christianity. Other laymen are ignorant and Romanised(even in areas where Romanism, eastern catholicism did not theoretically reach, like Moldova). They can't make the difference between Original Sin and Ancestral Sin, they believe in Penal Atonement, and others as such. My opinion is that the minority are genuine Orthodox Christians, and often persecuted by the extremists.

Well your experience, if indeed it is actually experience, is very different to mine. If what you said were true, I'd never have become Orthodox at all as I pretty much owe my enquiry into Orthodoxy to the shining example shown by Orthodox Christians in Bucovina, in particular one monk in Suceava. Since then I've been blessed to know two absolutely wonderful priests in the UK, to be married by one in Romania and have met truly inspiring bishops in Bishop Ignatie and Metropolitan Iosif. Both the parishes I've worshipped in in the UK have been full to bursting every Sunday with genuine Orthodox Christians (with their faults, it's true, as we all do) and the same is true of the parishes in Romania, though I'm there far less often. It's true the people could use better catechism (then we could avoid people having sacred heart paintings and the like) but this is true of Orthodox in every local church so far as I can see, but the 'Roman influence' nonsense is almost always overblown. As for your view of those who have been to theological school being extremists, I've yet to come across a single one in almost 20 years and across two countries who could be fairly described by what you have said. Of course our priests will say that Rome and the Protestants are wrong (if they didn't think that they shouldn't be Orthodox) but that's a far cry from the bigotry you are claiming.

James
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 04:20:48 AM by jmbejdl » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2013, 04:30:50 AM »

God knows Romania could use better theological and catechetical schools. I believe Romanian Orthodoxy is split between two extremes: Romanised(from RCC) and extremist, triumphalist, Romophob and Reformophob. I saw Rev. Dr John Bear on Trinitas Tv and I really liked him.  He looks like an equilibrated, schooled,down to earth and kind man. His answers were really equilibrated even if some of them made the moderator clench his nose.


Your belief in no way matches my experience of over a decade in the Romanian church, plus half a decade's experience of looking in from the outside prior. The Romanian bishops, priests and monks I've known have been some of the most genuine and devout Orthodox Christians I have ever met and the supposed Roman Catholic influences that people often spout about are almost always overblown when they even exist at all, whether we're talking of lay folk or clergy. Of course there are some extremists (on both ends of the spectrum) but the vast majority are anything but - much like those in every other Orthodox church so far as I can tell. On what do you base your opinion exactly?

James

I think the vast majority of practicant Romanian Orthodox are extremists and triumphalists, esspecially those who finish Theological Schools. Those are Romophob and Reformophob demonizing absolutely everything that has to do with those two branches of Christianity. Other laymen are ignorant and Romanised(even in areas where Romanism, eastern catholicism did not theoretically reach, like Moldova). They can't make the difference between Original Sin and Ancestral Sin, they believe in Penal Atonement, and others as such. My opinion is that the minority are genuine Orthodox Christians, and often persecuted by the extremists.

Well your experience, if indeed it is actually experience, is very different to mine. If what you said were true, I'd never have become Orthodox at all as I pretty much owe my enquiry into Orthodoxy to the shining example shown by Orthodox Christians in Bucovina, in particular one monk in Suceava. Since then I've been blessed to know two absolutely wonderful priests in the UK, to be married by one in Romania and have met truly inspiring bishops in Bishop Ignatie and Metropolitan Iosif. Both the parishes I've worshipped in in the UK have been full to bursting every Sunday with genuine Orthodox Christians (with their faults, it's true, as we all do) and the same is true of the parishes in Romania, though I'm there far less often. It's true the people could use better catechism (then we could avoid people having sacred heart paintings and the like) but this is true of Orthodox in every local church so far as I can see, but the 'Roman influence' nonsense is almost always overblown. As for your view of those who have been to theological school being extremists, I've yet to come across a single one in almost 20 years and across two countries who could be fairly described by what you have said. Of course our priests will say that Rome and the Protestants are wrong (if they didn't think that they shouldn't be Orthodox) but that's a far cry from the bigotry you are claiming.

James

Soon virtual will also tell us that Dumitru Staniloae was an extremist, with a Bible in one hand, and a sword in the other.
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« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2013, 04:51:43 AM »

God knows Romania could use better theological and catechetical schools. I believe Romanian Orthodoxy is split between two extremes: Romanised(from RCC) and extremist, triumphalist, Romophob and Reformophob. I saw Rev. Dr John Bear on Trinitas Tv and I really liked him.  He looks like an equilibrated, schooled,down to earth and kind man. His answers were really equilibrated even if some of them made the moderator clench his nose.


Your belief in no way matches my experience of over a decade in the Romanian church, plus half a decade's experience of looking in from the outside prior. The Romanian bishops, priests and monks I've known have been some of the most genuine and devout Orthodox Christians I have ever met and the supposed Roman Catholic influences that people often spout about are almost always overblown when they even exist at all, whether we're talking of lay folk or clergy. Of course there are some extremists (on both ends of the spectrum) but the vast majority are anything but - much like those in every other Orthodox church so far as I can tell. On what do you base your opinion exactly?

James

I think the vast majority of practicant Romanian Orthodox are extremists and triumphalists, esspecially those who finish Theological Schools. Those are Romophob and Reformophob demonizing absolutely everything that has to do with those two branches of Christianity. Other laymen are ignorant and Romanised(even in areas where Romanism, eastern catholicism did not theoretically reach, like Moldova). They can't make the difference between Original Sin and Ancestral Sin, they believe in Penal Atonement, and others as such. My opinion is that the minority are genuine Orthodox Christians, and often persecuted by the extremists.

Well your experience, if indeed it is actually experience, is very different to mine. If what you said were true, I'd never have become Orthodox at all as I pretty much owe my enquiry into Orthodoxy to the shining example shown by Orthodox Christians in Bucovina, in particular one monk in Suceava. Since then I've been blessed to know two absolutely wonderful priests in the UK, to be married by one in Romania and have met truly inspiring bishops in Bishop Ignatie and Metropolitan Iosif. Both the parishes I've worshipped in in the UK have been full to bursting every Sunday with genuine Orthodox Christians (with their faults, it's true, as we all do) and the same is true of the parishes in Romania, though I'm there far less often. It's true the people could use better catechism (then we could avoid people having sacred heart paintings and the like) but this is true of Orthodox in every local church so far as I can see, but the 'Roman influence' nonsense is almost always overblown. As for your view of those who have been to theological school being extremists, I've yet to come across a single one in almost 20 years and across two countries who could be fairly described by what you have said. Of course our priests will say that Rome and the Protestants are wrong (if they didn't think that they shouldn't be Orthodox) but that's a far cry from the bigotry you are claiming.

James

Soon virtual will also tell us that Dumitru Staniloae was an extremist, with a Bible in one hand, and a sword in the other.

He sounds to me rather like some of the ex-Orthodox neo-Protestants I've met in Romania. I've no idea if he is, but rabidly anti-Orthodox proclamations of bigotry and extremism seem to be par for the course for that type. Being an ex-Protestant who came the other way and feels no particular urge to vilify my previous co-religionists (I think they are wrong of course, but there's no need for insult and calumny) I don't really have much time for that attitude.

James
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 04:52:04 AM by jmbejdl » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2013, 06:42:49 AM »

God knows Romania could use better theological and catechetical schools. I believe Romanian Orthodoxy is split between two extremes: Romanised(from RCC) and extremist, triumphalist, Romophob and Reformophob. I saw Rev. Dr John Bear on Trinitas Tv and I really liked him.  He looks like an equilibrated, schooled,down to earth and kind man. His answers were really equilibrated even if some of them made the moderator clench his nose.


Your belief in no way matches my experience of over a decade in the Romanian church, plus half a decade's experience of looking in from the outside prior. The Romanian bishops, priests and monks I've known have been some of the most genuine and devout Orthodox Christians I have ever met and the supposed Roman Catholic influences that people often spout about are almost always overblown when they even exist at all, whether we're talking of lay folk or clergy. Of course there are some extremists (on both ends of the spectrum) but the vast majority are anything but - much like those in every other Orthodox church so far as I can tell. On what do you base your opinion exactly?

James

I think the vast majority of practicant Romanian Orthodox are extremists and triumphalists, esspecially those who finish Theological Schools. Those are Romophob and Reformophob demonizing absolutely everything that has to do with those two branches of Christianity. Other laymen are ignorant and Romanised(even in areas where Romanism, eastern catholicism did not theoretically reach, like Moldova). They can't make the difference between Original Sin and Ancestral Sin, they believe in Penal Atonement, and others as such. My opinion is that the minority are genuine Orthodox Christians, and often persecuted by the extremists.

Well your experience, if indeed it is actually experience, is very different to mine. If what you said were true, I'd never have become Orthodox at all as I pretty much owe my enquiry into Orthodoxy to the shining example shown by Orthodox Christians in Bucovina, in particular one monk in Suceava. Since then I've been blessed to know two absolutely wonderful priests in the UK, to be married by one in Romania and have met truly inspiring bishops in Bishop Ignatie and Metropolitan Iosif. Both the parishes I've worshipped in in the UK have been full to bursting every Sunday with genuine Orthodox Christians (with their faults, it's true, as we all do) and the same is true of the parishes in Romania, though I'm there far less often. It's true the people could use better catechism (then we could avoid people having sacred heart paintings and the like) but this is true of Orthodox in every local church so far as I can see, but the 'Roman influence' nonsense is almost always overblown. As for your view of those who have been to theological school being extremists, I've yet to come across a single one in almost 20 years and across two countries who could be fairly described by what you have said. Of course our priests will say that Rome and the Protestants are wrong (if they didn't think that they shouldn't be Orthodox) but that's a far cry from the bigotry you are claiming.

James

Soon virtual will also tell us that Dumitru Staniloae was an extremist, with a Bible in one hand, and a sword in the other.

He sounds to me rather like some of the ex-Orthodox neo-Protestants I've met in Romania. I've no idea if he is, but rabidly anti-Orthodox proclamations of bigotry and extremism seem to be par for the course for that type. Being an ex-Protestant who came the other way and feels no particular urge to vilify my previous co-religionists (I think they are wrong of course, but there's no need for insult and calumny) I don't really have much time for that attitude.

James

We romanian Orthodox are modern draculas, during the liturgy, we become vampires and then we suck the blood of every roman catholic or protestant around.  Grin
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Romania,striga tare sa te aud
Romania,noi suntem Leii din Sud
Si din mormant voi striga,Stiinta e echipa mea
De te nasti aici si cresti,ramai Anti'Bucuresti
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