OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 23, 2014, 12:44:43 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Struggling Between Latin and Orthodoxy  (Read 8537 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
the_grip
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 21


« on: January 12, 2005, 02:05:13 AM »

Greetings! i was recently recommended to these forums, and i have already found a wealth in the little i have read.

i was a Reformed Calvinist Presbyterian (PCA) for many years, but i really struggled with it. About a year ago, i made the decision that i was not following the teachings of the One, Holy, and Apostolic Church, and fortunately God listened to my prayers. i met a priest of a very orthodox Anglican parish in the city i live in (Dallas, TX), and i was confirmed into the Anglican communion last summer.

However, i feel this is only the first step of my journey. i believe that the eyes of my heart are being opened, and i have begun reading many books on Orthodoxy and the Latin communions. i'm still not convinced that the Anglican church is the endpoint of my journey.

Thus, i am beginning to struggle even more. My heart has begun to call me to Orthodoxy, but i'm still wrestling with the whole issue of the papacy and the Latin communion. Further, my wife feels that she would want to join the Latin communion if it were not for our Anglican parish (whereas i would probably join the Orthodox Church).

i don't have much time to elaborate now, but, in the interim, i would appreciate the prayers of those who are so inclined.

In peace,
the_grip
« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 02:06:00 AM by the_grip » Logged
Donna Rose
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 937


« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2005, 02:18:20 AM »

the_grip,

wlecome to the forum! you certainly have my prayers - i would encourage you to make this journey with your wife if possible, since ultimately and *ideally* the decision would be made together, and the decision would be the same for both of you. have you talked to priests from either the Orthodox or Latin Church? have you visited and witnessed an Orthodox Divine Liturgy yet? i recommend doing both of these, with your wife, along with reading books about both Churches (as you have been), and take it from there. Smiley please keep us updated, and feel free to post about any questions you may have - a good board for you might be the Orthodox-Catholic board, where you can ask questions that will help you work out the differences between the two.
Logged

hmmmm...
Jennifer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,154


« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2005, 01:07:19 PM »

Hi there.  I noticed your thread over on the Catholic convert board and thought I'd address your question about England here. 

When the Orthodox say that England was Orthodox, they don't mean that it was eastern Orthodox (ignore the silly response you got questioning whether they said the Divine Liturgy in England before the schism - not all Orthodox use the Byzantine rite but that person probably doesn't even know that).  What they mean is that before the schism, the English Church was in full communion with the Orthodox Church, hence it was Orthodox. 

« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 01:32:30 PM by Jennifer » Logged
the_grip
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 21


« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2005, 01:25:27 PM »

Jennifer,

Thanks for your response. It was over a year ago that i was taught about this connection, and it was from a ROCOR priest in San Francisco (so it's not an Anglican preference or anything). i haven't had the time to dig up my notes, but i knew the connection was there somewhere. What you said falls in line with exactly what he taught.

The priest essentially told me, "Many people assume that the Anglican church was a Roman church - however, it actually was Orthodox.  The earliest English Christians were Orthodox Christians."

In peace,
the_grip
« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 01:27:12 PM by the_grip » Logged
Jennifer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,154


« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2005, 01:44:10 PM »

Of course the flip side of this is some idiot Roman Catholic "historian" claiming that Hagia Sophia was a "Byzantine Catholic Church." 

I'm not familiar with the pre-schism history of the English Church.  It certainly was western but I understand there's some debate about how 'roman' it was.  My gut feeling is that it's incorrect to say that it was never 'roman.'  Before the schism, its patriarch was the Pope of Rome.  Its mother Church was the Church of Rome just like the mother Church of the western Orthodox Churches is the Church of Rome (the historical Church of Rome). 
Logged
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2005, 02:14:46 PM »

There is a canonical Western-Rite Orthodox church in Dallas, if you or your wife is interested.  It's under the Antiochians.

http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2005, 02:41:06 PM »

You state:

[ i met a priest of a very orthodox Anglican parish in the city i live in (Dallas, TX), and i was confirmed into the Anglican communion last summer.]

Since you live in Dallas, Texas I might suggest both you and your wife attend a servive at the OCA Cathedral -

http://www.stseraphim.org/

Many of the parishioners are converts from a similiar background as yours.  Including Archbishop Dimitri who is from a Baptist background.

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,441


« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2005, 02:55:31 PM »

Jennifer,

Thanks for your response.  It was over a year ago that i was taught about this connection, and it was from a ROCOR priest in San Francisco (so it's not an Anglican preference or anything).  i haven't had the time to dig up my notes, but i knew the connection was there somewhere.  What you said falls in line with exactly what he taught.

The priest essentially told me, "Many people assume that the Anglican church was a Roman church - however, it actually was Orthodox. The earliest English Christians were Orthodox Christians."

In peace,
the_grip

Was that Fr. Peter Perekrestov?  He's the Dean of Joy of All Who Sorrows Cathedral on Geary St.  He's very nice.
Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2005, 04:01:33 PM »

Why not have the "best of both worlds" and become a Byzantine Catholic?
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Twenty Nine
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 190



« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2005, 04:18:18 PM »

Quote
Why not have the "best of both worlds" and become a Byzantine Catholic?

I'm starting to think that you are a troll.  Sad

Gregory
Logged

Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. - Philippians 4:8
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2005, 04:24:07 PM »

I am definitely not. I have been a member of the Malankara Church for two years. Please understand that two of our priests and a deacon are converts from Catholicism and so is almost half the parish. We are rather tolerant of Roman Catholics and do not discourage them from practicing and enjoying their faith.
We appreciate the beliefs and practices that we share in common with Roman Catholics and do not allow our differences to be a stumbling block to peace between us as fellow Christians.

Just because I am tolerant of Catholicism does not mean that I am unsincere in my commitment to Orthodoxy.

The only plan I have for after college and where I feel that God is leading me is to joint an Orthodox monastery. It amazes me that in my theatre class at college, in the group I am in to do group projects, there is a fellow Orthodox Christian who just so happens to have lived for five months at Vashon Island that I did not meet until I took this class.
That, to me, is not a coincidence.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 04:30:30 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2005, 04:27:03 PM »

My appreciation for the Byzantine Catholic Church does not make me a "troll".
« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 04:28:27 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
the_grip
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 21


« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2005, 04:29:49 PM »

Quote
Was that Fr. Peter Perekrestov? He's the Dean of Joy of All Who Sorrows Cathedral on Geary St. He's very nice.

i am ashamed to admit it, but i cannot remember his name. It was in the Holy Virgin Cathedral Bookstore that we spoke for about an hour. He was extremely nice... i felt like i could speak with him for quite a bit longer than we did. To be honest, i hear quite a bit of bad talk about the ROCOR as being cold, hard, exclusivist, isolationist, etc. etc., but every ROCOR person i've met has shown nothing less than honest love and kindness. Where do they get all the bad rap from? It has been a great joy for me to experience people in the ROCOR - literally every single one of them. i might also add that visiting the Holy Virgin Cathedral was one of the single most meaningful experiences in my life.

Thanks also to the recommendation above for St. Seraphim's Cathedral in Dallas. i've always wanted to visit there, and the PCA (Presbyterian) church i grew up in is just down the block (so i've walked past it many, many times). i have to wonder if all the prayers in that cathedral didn't somehow affect me... Wink

i know this might be slightly off-topic, but i've also learned to pray the Rosary over the past year (after becoming Anglican). i use the older Latin form without the Luminous Mysteries. Is one recommended to give up the Rosary upon entry into the Orthodox Church? i know about all the warnings about using imagination during prayer, and i do have a very active imagination. To be honest, it has practically made me scared to pray simply because i don't want to be disobedient or praying amiss. Prayer through images is somewhat second-nature to me.

Thanks for all the help. i hope all of you know that it is well received and appreciated.

Peace to you,
the_grip
Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2005, 04:34:09 PM »

i know this might be slightly off-topic, but i've also learned to pray the Rosary over the past year

If praying the Rosary helps you grow in your faith as an Orthodox Christian and brings you closer to Theotokos, I do not see a problem with it. However, I have not prayed the rosary since I converted to Orthodoxy two years ago.

i know about all the warnings about using imagination during prayer, and i do have a very active imagination.

What warnings? I am reading The Way of the Pilgrim and in the beginning, a monk reccomends to the pilgrim that he imagine his own heart while praying.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 04:34:52 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Twenty Nine
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 190



« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2005, 04:39:36 PM »

Quote
We are rather tolerant of Roman Catholics and do not discourage them from practicing and enjoying their faith.
We appreciate the beliefs and practices that we share in common with Roman Catholics and do not allow our differences to be a stumbling block to peace between us as fellow Christians.
Just because I am tolerant of Catholicism does not mean that I am unsincere in my commitment to Orthodoxy.

I won't comment on the Malankara church since it has been discussed many times on this forum. I won't open a can of worms. Therefore, I will only comment on your quote in general terms.

Why is faith, or more importantly THE FAITH, often times viewed and understood in a minimalist way? Why do we often times try to find those things which we have in common and leave it at that. Shouldn't we try to resolve those things that divide us so that those who are mistaken may experience the fullness of the Faith?

Why be tolerant of Catholicism? The fact that they are not Orthodox is a scandal: they don't have the fullness of the Faith. It doesn't mean that one should hate Catholics or battle with them. But in all charity and love we should correct them.

Orthodoxy is a precious pearl and we are called to sell everything for it. Why then should we not share this joy for the other's spiritual healing?

Gregory

Logged

Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. - Philippians 4:8
Jennifer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,154


« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2005, 04:39:50 PM »

Fr. Patrick Reardon, Antiochian priest in Chicago, told me that he still says the western rosary. 
Logged
the_grip
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 21


« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2005, 04:44:05 PM »

Quote
What warnings? I am reading The Way of the Pilgrim and in the beginning, a monk reccomends to the pilgrim that he imagine his own heart while praying.

i'm also reading that book right now! It is absolutely wonderful and very uplifting for me.

Regarding the imagination, i have heard that all over the place. Just recently, in this thread on the Rosary. i have also read in places that it is forbidden to pray the Jesus prayer and visualize your "internals." For example, i read someplace that to breathe in, imagine the air going into your lungs with the words, "Lord Jesus Christ," imagine your circulatory system, etc. etc. taking this in, and then exhaling with the words, "have mercy on me, a sinner," is strictly forbidden. However, you are right - the pilgrim says the prayer in rhythm to his heartbeat.

Naturally i'm very confused. i do have hope that i will get this sorted out with God's help and that of the Church.

Your friend,
the_grip
« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 04:46:25 PM by the_grip » Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2005, 04:49:13 PM »



 But in all charity and love we should correct them.


Who am I to correct a Roman Catholic? I am not saying that we should dilute our faith in order to tolerate thiers. We should just appreciate what we share in common and leave it at that without rebuking them. We have the right to say, "This is what we believe and why" but I would not go on to say, "In order to believe in the one true Christian faith, you must believe the same as I do".
I believe in ecumenism between Orthodox and Catholic Christians, not triumphalism.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 04:51:23 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Jennifer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,154


« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2005, 04:50:04 PM »

I recommend talking to an Orthodox priest about this.  It's much better to have personal spiritual guidance than to read something on the internet.  Since you're in Dallas, you have access to both western and eastern Orthodox churches.  Attend liturgy at both places and make an appointment with the priests. 
Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,481


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2005, 05:11:56 PM »

I agree with Jennifer.  You won't find the answers here or anywhere on the 'net.  This monstrosity we are all entangled in is no substitute for the advice of a living, breathing priest.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
the_grip
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 21


« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2005, 05:14:16 PM »

Very good advice.  Thanks for the recommendation!

Yours,
the_grip
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2005, 05:22:28 PM »

My appreciation for the Byzantine Catholic Church does not make me a "troll".

But recommending someone become Byzantine Catholic on an Orthodox forum is not going to be taken well.  Most of us believe the Orthodox Church is the true Church.  I appreciate the Catholic Church but I advise Catholics to become Orthodox since it is the fulness of the faith.  Furthermore, as a former Byzantine Catholic, I am somewhat perturbed by your suggestion that it is the best of both worlds. Have you ever been Byzantine Catholic? It's NOT the best of both worlds, sorry.

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2005, 05:23:52 PM »

I agree with Jennifer. You won't find the answers here or anywhere on the 'net. This monstrosity we are all entangled in is no substitute for the advice of a living, breathing priest.

Agreed--and I am one of the admins. Smiley  I think that on our forum and site you will find fellowship and facts. But make sure you have regular contact with the liturgical life and the spiritual guidance of a priest, in order to "experience" Orthodoxy.

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2005, 05:24:43 PM »



i'm also reading that book right now!  It is absolutely wonderful and very uplifting for me.

Regarding the imagination, i have heard that all over the place.  Just recently, in this thread on the Rosary.  i have also read in places that it is forbidden to pray the Jesus prayer and visualize your "internals."  For example, i read someplace that to breathe in, imagine the air going into your lungs with the words, "Lord Jesus Christ," imagine your circulatory system, etc. etc. taking this in, and then exhaling with the words, "have mercy on me, a sinner," is strictly forbidden.  However, you are right - the pilgrim says the prayer in rhythm to his heartbeat.

Naturally i'm very confused.  i do have hope that i will get this sorted out with God's help and that of the Church.

Your friend,
the_grip

No, it is not forbidden. What is foribidden is to do this on your own WITHOUT a priest's blessing and guidance Smiley

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2005, 05:26:16 PM »

A few things...

What they mean is that before the schism, the English Church was in full communion with the Orthodox Church, hence it was Orthodox.

The English Church was Roman in many different aspects (language, many aspects of the Sarum Rite were later influenced by Rome's liturgy, vestments in some places)...guess you could call it "Roman Orthodox"...though the RCs have just as legitimate a claim to calling England "Catholic," as it's just a matter of who's side you're on now to look back in hindsight and say, "See, they really would have agreed with us!"

Likewise they could legitimately say that Hagia Sophia was "Byzantine Catholic," as it was quite Byzantine and, up until the schism, in communion with the so-called "Apostolic See," so there you go...

There is a canonical Western-Rite Orthodox church in Dallas, if you or your wife is interested. It's under the Antiochians.

http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/

Bit of a correction: it's in Fort Worth, which is the good part of an hour's drive away. It's about ten minutes away from my house!

To be honest, i hear quite a bit of bad talk about the ROCOR as being cold, hard, exclusivist, isolationist, etc. etc., but every ROCOR person i've met has shown nothing less than honest love and kindness. Where do they get all the bad rap from?

I'm glad you had such a wonderful experience with the ROCOR. Indeed, my experience with them has been almost entirely good, with much civility and respect shown on both sides. There are, though, those within ROCOR who are the "vocal minority" that scream that all those who were received only through chrismation and not through baptism aren't really Orthodox and they need to be baptized when received into ROCOR, who call us heretics, schismatics, apostates, etc., and who rant about calendar and ecumenism as if we were in bed with the Unitarians. Like I said, they're the minority, but unfortunately, they're the ones you hear the most from online.

Plus, there's the issue of whether or not ROCOR was justified in separating themselves from the Patriarch of Moscow. That's a hairy one, as it has to do with who the "legitimate heir" of Russian Orthodoxy is, especially here in the States.

Is one recommended to give up the Rosary upon entry into the Orthodox Church?

I wasn't, though I've since stopped using it since I created that thread months ago. Mostly due to my desire to have public and private devotion "match" as much as I can. When I attend St. Peter's for Evensong I prepare by using my Prayer Beads to pray the Ave Maria (usually I pray the Jesus Prayer on them).

i know about all the warnings about using imagination during prayer, and i do have a very active imagination. To be honest, it has practically made me scared to pray simply because i don't want to be disobedient or praying amiss. Prayer through images is somewhat second-nature to me.

That thread got some interesting responses, to be sure. I read Unseen Warfare (as edited by St. Nikodemos of the Holy Mt. and St. Theophan the Recluse) and several times it was mentioned that we are to clear our minds of pictures, calling out to Christ as the unknowable second Person of the Trinity.

I'm no expert then, as I've just learned this myself, but there's my $0.02.
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2005, 05:28:59 PM »


I appreciate the Catholic Church but I advise Catholics to become Orthodox since it is the fulness of the faith.


Doesn't Byazantine Catholicism contain Orthodox practice and doctrine? Isn't the only real difference between us and Byzantines their commitment to the papacy?


Have you ever been Byzantine Catholic? It's NOT the best of both worlds, sorry.


I said that in quotes for a reason. It's what my father told me when I decided to leave Roman Catholicism in favor of Orthodoxy.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
the_grip
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 21


« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2005, 05:30:46 PM »

Thanks Anastasios. i do so appreciate your help in my struggles here.

i am planning on getting in touch with an Orthodox priest (most likely at St. Seraphim Cathedral), but, in the interim, is there explicit prohibitions for using the Jesus Prayer without the guidance of a priest? Of course, i don't mean to the extent that a monk would - i.e. 800-1200 times a day, etc. i only ask because i have found great comfort in it long before i knew what it was (when i was a Presbyterian i used to recite the words of the tax collector from the parable - "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner." i did this quite often).

Also, is there a strict prohibition on imagination and/or the Rosary? i don't want to pray these things if i am in error. Again, i do plan to get in touch with a priest, but i am curious as to what people have been taught.

Thanks again for all your help - all of you. My experience on this forum has been great thus far.

Peace,
the_grip
Logged
the_grip
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 21


« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2005, 05:36:41 PM »

Pedro,

Quote
I'm no expert then, as I've just learned this myself, but there's my $0.02.

i was working up my previous response to Anastasios when you posted this. Thank you for your insight!

Regarding Ft. Worth, i love the new modern art museum. i do enjoy Anselm Kiefer's work (which there are several pieces of) - although i'm not sure what he was after on some of them (i.e. the Quaternity... seems a bit sacreligious, to say the least... although he is Jewish).

Sorry to digress... thanks again for your help!

Yours,
the_grip
« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 05:41:14 PM by the_grip » Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2005, 05:43:41 PM »



Doesn't Byazantine Catholicism contain Orthodox practice and doctrine? Isn't the only real difference between us and Byzantines their commitment to the papacy?



I said that in quotes for a reason. It's what my father told me when I decided to leave Roman Catholicism in favor of Orthodoxy.

OK fair enough. Allow me to explain. Byzantine Catholicism is good for people who are Catholic in doctrine and who want to be Byzantine Catholic.  It's not Roman Catholic, and it's not Orthodox, so people who want to be Roman Catholic but go BC for the "more traditional liturgy" oftentimes get burnt out, and people who want the fulness of Orthodox praxis often get burned out because it is NOT the fulness of Orthodox praxis (there are a few exceptions here and there, such as Holy Transfiguration Melkite in McLean, VA, etc.).  Even if it were externally the same as Orthodoxy 100% it produces conflict in those who consider themselves Orthodox in communion with Rome because too much compromise, second-guessing of one's hierarch, etc., is required.

If one is Byzantine Catholic because he believes in Byzantine Catholicism, it'll work for him.  But if one has other designs than to just accept it on its own merit, he will become frustrated and leave eventually.

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,481


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2005, 05:46:03 PM »

I think that's one of the best things you've ever posted on the subject, Dustin, and I, as an eastward leaning Roman Catholic, would agree with you Smiley
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2005, 06:30:01 PM »

[Why not have the "best of both worlds" and become a Byzantine Catholic?]

And be neither 'here' nor 'there'!

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Nacho
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: EasternOrthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,482

The face of Corporate America


« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2005, 06:46:56 PM »

Quote
i am ashamed to admit it, but i cannot remember his name.  It was in the Holy Virgin Cathedral Bookstore that we spoke for about an hour.  He was extremely nice... i felt like i could speak with him for quite a bit longer than we did.  To be honest, i hear quite a bit of bad talk about the ROCOR as being cold, hard, exclusivist, isolationist, etc. etc., but every ROCOR person i've met has shown nothing less than honest love and kindness.  Where do they get all the bad rap from?  It has been a great joy for me to experience people in the ROCOR - literally every single one of them.  i might also add that visiting the Holy Virgin Cathedral was one of the single most meaningful experiences in my life.

It must be Father Demitri...He's been there everytime I go to buy some stuff from thier store. Also spend a good amount of time talking to him also hehe Afro...Wish I lived a little closer to Holy Virgin because I would love to visit more often.

Quote
i know this might be slightly off-topic, but i've also learned to pray the Rosary over the past year (after becoming Anglican).  i use the older Latin form without the Luminous Mysteries.  Is one recommended to give up the Rosary upon entry into the Orthodox Church?  i know about all the warnings about using imagination during prayer, and i do have a very active imagination.  To be honest, it has practically made me scared to pray simply because i don't want to be disobedient or praying amiss.  Prayer through images is somewhat second-nature to me.
 

I sometimes pray the rosary even though I have never been RC. I was attending an high anglican type church (no affiliation with ECUSA though) for many years and still have a love for some of the "western" practices, especially the eucharistic rite in the liturgy. I sometimes also use my imaginatation because I have always been a very visual type of person especially when it comes to learning. When I'm praying and for some reason I can't focus I just ussually visualize an icon in my head which seems to help. Nothing too creative, I like to keep it very simple in order to keep my focus.   
Logged

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,183


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2005, 06:53:02 PM »

Why is faith, or more importantly THE FAITH, often times viewed and understood in a minimalist way?
Why be tolerant of Catholicism? The fact that they are not Orthodox is a scandal: they don't have the fullness of the Faith. It doesn't mean that one should hate Catholics or battle with them. But in all charity and love we should correct them.

Orthodoxy is a precious pearl and we are called to sell everything for it. Why then should we not share this joy for the other's spiritual healing?


Right on.  Afro
« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 06:56:52 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2005, 08:55:13 PM »


Even if it were externally the same as Orthodoxy 100% it produces conflict in those who consider themselves Orthodox in communion with Rome because too much compromise, second-guessing of one's hierarch, etc., is required.

Anastasios

Are there any other things that you don't like about Byzantine Catholicism?
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Nacho
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: EasternOrthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,482

The face of Corporate America


« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2005, 09:28:48 PM »

I would think that being eastern catholic would be a much better option for RC's (who want to stay RC) that may be tired and unimpressed with all the watered down changes since Vatican 2. Awhile back I attended two eastern RC's a few times in my area (melkite & byzantine) and couldn't beleive how small they were. The byzantine church from what I understand was close to going under because there were less than 20 people that show up for divine liturgy. I would think these churches would be overflowing with disastisfied RC's with the current condition of the RC church but I guess that's not appearantly true. 
Logged

"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2005, 10:00:46 PM »

I would think these churches would be overflowing with disastisfied RC's with the current condition of the RC church but I guess that's not appearantly true.

The problem is that too many American Catholics are totally ignorant of the Eastern Catholic Churches.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
the_grip
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 21


« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2005, 01:30:40 PM »

Nacho,

Quote
It must be Father Demitri...He's been there everytime I go to buy some stuff from thier store.

My wife refreshed my memory last night.  It was Father Demitri.  He may not remember us, but please tell him hello next time you see him and that our conversation with him was a blessing for us.  The icon prints i purchased from the bookstore remind me of him every time i look at them.  From my experience, he is a wonderful man.

Peace to you,
the_grip
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2005, 01:51:21 PM »



Are there any other things that you don't like about Byzantine Catholicism?

Yes but I don't want to bash my former Church.

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,183


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2005, 02:49:11 PM »

I would think that being eastern catholic would be a much better option for RC's (who want to stay RC) that may be tired and unimpressed with all the watered down changes since Vatican 2. Awhile back I attended two eastern RC's a few times in my area (melkite & byzantine) and couldn't beleive how small they were. The byzantine church from what I understand was close to going under because there were less than 20 people that show up for divine liturgy. I would think these churches would be overflowing with disastisfied RC's with the current condition of the RC church but I guess that's not appearantly true.

Don't forget that, technically, Roman Catholics are not allowed to "cross over" and become Byzantine, and the reverse is also true, unless they marry somebody of the other rite. I believe also, that, technically at least, the Byzantine Catholic Churches are only allowed to accept converts from Orthodoxy. I don't see these rules being followed rigorously, but if a whole bunch of Latins wanted to become Byzantines, Rome might not be too pleased. Anastasios and others might wish to correct me on this, or at least augment what I wrote, but I think this is the official position.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2005, 02:51:29 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2005, 03:06:33 PM »

Actually, Pravoslavbob, I believe that one can change from RC to EC ONCE with the approval of the Latin bishop and the EC bishop.  The "switcher" is then stuck in that new jurisdiction.  ECs, however, cannot change. 

I can't remember how it works with marriage, not that it really matters.  ECs tell me the designations are irrelevant.  I disagree, but I'm not EC.
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,481


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2005, 03:29:09 PM »

Once in a lifetime, a Catholic, say of the Latin Rite, can petition his bishop and the appropriate Eastern Catholic bishop for a canonical switch of rite.  With the blessing of one's pastor, letters are written to the bishops requesting this switch.  Both have to agree.  In theory, it should be relatively easy if the requestor is sincerely switching rites because of true pastoral need and not just because he or she is running away from the liturgical nightmare that often occurs in the Roman rite.  Some Latin bishops don't like to lose flock, however, and sit on the petition, much like Lincoln's famous "pocket veto".  Unfair, yes, but not "illegal" by any means.  The normal practice is to be a member of an Eastern Catholic parish for a few years before petition for the switch.  I've never known anyone who has been outright denied, but I have known people who have been cautioned to wait a little longer to see if that's what they truly wanted.  In the end, they did switch rites.

As far as marriage goes, I believe that, canonically speaking, one gets married in the rite of the husband and the wife becomes the rite of her spouse, and all children are to be brought up in the husband's rite. 

As far as the reception of converts, it is officially encouraged that each particular church only accept converts from similar liturgical traditions, but I don't think that's followed rigorously.  I believe our own Anastasios was accepted into the Byzantine Catholic church from a western tradition on his own road to Orthodoxy.  Technically speaking, he should've become a Roman Catholic. 
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2005, 03:41:46 PM »

Why petition the Latin Church before one can enter the Byzantine Church? It is the Latin Church that is corrupted, in my opinion.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2005, 03:42:20 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,481


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2005, 03:51:18 PM »

Okay, here's the rundown.

If I were to in the future decide to officially become a member of the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Church, a parish of which I haven attended every Sunday for almost three years now, I, as a Latin Rite Catholic, would have to take up the matter with my bishop, as I am, as a Roman Catholic, subject to him in all things regarding faith. 

I may be off base, but I believe the same goes for our Orthodox brethren here.  The local bishop is the head of the local church, period.  He, in accordance with his brother bishops, has the final say on spiritual matters, especially "canonical" ones.

Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,094


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2005, 04:00:08 PM »

Quote
I may be off base, but I believe the same goes for our Orthodox brethren here.

Unfortunately, in the alphabet-soup jurisdictional situation we have in America, I think laymen (and even readers and whatnot) can pretty much switch without much "ok" from above. Certainly the bishop has the final say... I think we just don't involve him in that say as much. That's been my experience anyway (fwiw, when I went from Antiochian to the Church Abroad, I was considered part of the local ROCOR parish after I had done a typical confession and communed; I didn't contact a bishop from either jurisdiction because I thought it really wasn't something they'd be so concerned about that they would have wanted me to contact them about).
« Last Edit: January 13, 2005, 04:01:59 PM by Paradosis » Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,481


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2005, 04:03:38 PM »

Well, maybe not in terms of "switching jurisdictions", especially in the USA, but in overall matters, the bishop is where the buck stops, so to speak, right?
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2005, 04:05:21 PM »

Okay, here's the rundown.

Regardless of what the Latin bishops are accustomed to, I am speaking on a matter of principle.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,481


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2005, 04:07:54 PM »

It's not a question of "accustomed".  It's canon law.

As a matter of principle, I would tend to agree with you.  But it's the way things are and that's how the process works within the Catholic Church.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,094


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2005, 04:12:59 PM »

Yeah, definately, "do nothing important without the bishop's knowledge" and all that. He's the one that has the final say, and it'd be hard to go "around him" unless the action was so unjustified and spiritually harmful that you could catch the attention of his synod Smiley
« Last Edit: January 13, 2005, 04:14:20 PM by Paradosis » Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2005, 04:14:30 PM »

But it's the way things are and that's how the process works within the Catholic Church.

I'm glad that we both know that the way things are is not necessarily the way that things should be.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Irish Melkite
Information Mongeror
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite Greek-Catholic
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Posts: 988


WWW
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2005, 04:44:42 PM »

Catholics of any Church, Latin, Eastern, or Oriental may request a "Change of Canonical Enrollment" (the formal name for the process of translating from one Particular Church to another). The process is essentially as described by Schultz, although "sitting on the petition" is no longer acceptable and expedient action on it is to be expected (and can be enforced by recourse to proper authority). That does not mean that all such petitions are granted.

The length of time involved in the process can vary significantly. The authority to approve such a Change is formally delegated to the discretion of the ordinaries involved (the bishop or eparch of the local diocese/ eparchy of the Church from which the petitioner is originating and his counterpart of the Church to which the petitioner seeks to join).

In brief, the process begins when a person believes that his or her spiritual well-being would best be served by fully participating in the life of a sui iuris Church other than the one of which he or she is then a member. How soon after becoming acquainted with another Church sui iuris can one legitimately claim such discernment? It varies from individual to individual, but some jurisdictions have quantified it from their perspective, formally requiring participation by the petitioner in the life of one of their parishes for anywhere from 1 to 3 years before approval will be granted. I think it's safe to say that, on the whole, a minimum of two years should/would be expected.

The petitioner addresses the request to both his/her existing ordinary and the ordinary into whose jurisdiction he/she seeks to transfer, explaining the motivation for seeking to change. (When a change is sought for the express purpose of pursuing the Mystery of Holy Orders, the approval to grant such Change is ordinarily reserved to the Sacred Congregation for the Oriental Church. This is intended to assure that such is not done merely to bypass the Latin Church's discipline against married clergy.)

Most movement is from West to East and there is a decided prejudice on the part of both Latin and Eastern hierarchs against changes that are motivated by dissatisfaction with the liturgical praxis of the Latin Church. While we of the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches appreciate interest in us and in our liturgical traditions, we want to and must be understood and appreciated for ourselves, not as an antidote to what disaffected Latins perceive as wrong in their own Church. The Novus Ordo Mass is neither less authentic nor holy than the Tridentine Mass; each, as a service of worship directed to God, has its own intrinsic holiness when served faithfully and reverently. To the extent that abuses exist within either, they must needs be addressed; but the form is only that - an external; ultimately, worship comes from within oneself, one's heart and soul. Petitions espousing traditionalist viewpoints that result in an antagonistic view toward the Novus Ordo and post-Vatican II reforms are not ordinarily deemed an appropriate basis for granting Change. Why? Among other reasons are the fact that the Eastern or Oriental Catholic Church one sees today may not be the one of tomorrow, as our Churches undergo their own reforms, intended to remove latinizations and restore our own traditions.

The extent to which one might potentially encounter this kind of situation (disenchantment with one's new liturgical environment) will vary. Some Eastern and Oriental Churches are much further along in achieving a return to their historical liturgical origins than others - so, to use a computer analogy, WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get). In others, what you see may not be what you'll ultimately have.  Even within Churches, there are differences in how far along parishes are in doing so. Will a transplanted Latin still like us when we look less like the Church they've romanticized us to be? Or will they be disenchanted and want to move on? And to where? In most instances, as several have indicated, only a single Change of Canonical Enrollment is permitted, although there is presently no canonical provision to that effect and it is speculative whether it would be enforced across the board (under earlier Canon Law, there was a provision to this effect).

In assessing the motivation for a requested change, one consideration on the part of the both hierarchs (especially the one who is being asked to receive the petitioner) is the extent to which it is perceived that the petitioner truly understands and is drawn to the Church for reasons related to his/her theological development and spiritual well-being.

The prevailing view is that a Change of Canonical Enrollment is a decision that should not be lightly made. For many, it is not only a change of parish and rite, but also a whole process of inculturation, particularly given the ethnicity of our parishes. We tend to be a 'family' and 'family' is more than liking the pirohi, the fataya, or the lahmajun at the annual food fair weekend. Anyone intending to make a change should feel certain that they feel comfortable not only with the spirituality, but with the community with whom they will share and explore and develop that spirituality. They are often entering into a community whose ties to one another stretch back generations - sometimes back to a single village in the Levant, the Ukraine, or elsewhere. Our parishes are either very welcoming to outsiders who come among us or incredibly closed - there is no in-between. And we do need to be welcoming - assimilation and a ghetto mentality may be opposite ends of a continuum, but
they both represent a real danger to the continued viability of our Churches.

Under the now abrogated 1917 Code of Canon LAw, converts to Catholicism were to be accepted into the Church which was "most akin" to the convert's religion of origin. This meant that Proterstants would convert to the Latin Church and Orthodox would convert to the most appropriate Eastern or Oriental Catholic Church.  That provision has been removed from the current Latin and Eastern Codes, which now provide:
 
Latin Code

Canon 111

-º1 Through the reception of baptism a child becomes a member of the Latin Church if the parents belong to that Church or, should one of them not belong to it, if they have both by common consent chosen that the child be baptised in the Latin Church: if that common consent is lacking, the child becomes a member of the ritual Church to which the father belongs.

-º2 Any candidate for baptism who has completed the fourteenth year of age may freely choose to be baptised either in the Latin Church or in another autonomous ritual Church; in which case the person belongs to the Church which he or she has chosen.

Eastern Code

Canon 587

-º1 Persons who desire to join the Church are to be admitted with liturgical ceremonies to the catechumenate, which is not a mere presentation of teachings and precepts, but a formation in all the Christian life and an apprenticeship duly lasting for sometime.

Canon 588

Catechumens are free to enroll in whatever Church sui iuris they want, according to the norm of Canon 30; however, it has to be provided that nothing stands in the way of their enrollment in the Church that is more appropriate to their culture.

Canon 30

Anyone to be baptized who has completed the fourteenth year of age can freely select any Church sui iuris in which he or she then is enrolled by virtue of baptism received in that same Church, with due regard for particular law established by the Apostolic See.

Canon 31

No one can presume in any way to induce the Christian faithful to transfer to another Church sui iuris.

As to marriage and children, according to the Eastern Code:

Canon 33

A wife is at liberty to transfer to the Church of the husband at the celebration of or during the marriage; when the marriage has ended, she can freely return to the original Church sui iuris.

Canon 34

If the parents, or the Catholic spouse in the case of a mixed marriage, transfer to another Church sui iuris, children under fourteen years old by the law itself are enrolled in the same Church; if in a marriage of Catholics only one parent transfers to another Church sui iuris, the children transfer only if both parents consent. Upon completion of the fourteenth year of age, the children can return to the original Church sui iuris.

Many years,

Neil

Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

- Melkite Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), of blessed memory
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2005, 04:36:16 PM »

If Byzantine Catholicism has the fullness of Orthodox liturgy and Orthodox doctrine but is under the juristiction of Rome, then wouldn't joining this church solve the struggle of one who struggles between Latin and Orthodoxy?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2005, 04:36:39 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
the_grip
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 21


« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2005, 04:41:00 PM »

It would if part of my struggle was not with accepting the current state of papal jurisdiction in the Latin communion (which is one part of the issue). It's hard to figure out as i don't want to give the issue my personal interpretation - rather, i want to try and discern the true teaching of the Church. This is likely to take at least several years; thus, i'm always open to suggestions.

To further illustrate, if the Orthodox Church is indeed the true Church, then it wouldn't matter if i was Byzantine Catholic or if i stayed Anglican - either way i wouldn't be in the communion of the true Church (albeit that is a simplified example... there are other issues involved in this).

i'm planning on speaking with an Orthodox priest soon (i'm in contact with one), and i hope to discuss the issue with a priest of a Byzantine Catholic parish that is in my area.

In peace,
the_grip
« Last Edit: January 14, 2005, 04:42:43 PM by the_grip » Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2005, 04:48:13 PM »

To further illustrate, if the Orthodox Church is indeed the true Church, then it wouldn't matter if i was Byzantine Catholic or if i stayed Anglican - either way i wouldn't be in the communion of the true Church (albeit that is a simplified example... there are other issues involved in this).

Have you considered the quotes of the Eastern Orthodox fathers that are favorable of papal supremacy?
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
the_grip
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 21


« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2005, 04:49:55 PM »

i'm trying to consider all i can Smiley.  If you have reading suggestions, please do let me know the sources so that i can look at them.

Thanks for your help,
the_grip
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,785


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2005, 04:51:04 PM »

If Byzantine Catholicism has the fullness of Orthodox liturgy and Orthodox doctrine but is under the juristiction of Rome, then wouldn't joining this church solve the struggle of one who struggles between Latin and Orthodoxy?

But you're presuming that Byzantine Catholicism

1.  has the fulness of Orthodox liturgy and

2.  the fulness of Orthodox doctrine.
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,785


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2005, 04:55:23 PM »



Have you considered the quotes of the Eastern Orthodox fathers that are favorable of papal supremacy?

Are you Orthodox?

There's a whole thread buried here somewhere in which Linus and Peter Farrington went through this issue, with Linus presenting a lot of quotes which seemed to support Petrine primacy (a version of which I can accept).  The discussion was interesting at times.  However, it must be said that the Church has come out against what is now taught by the RCC, and has as much, if not more, Scriptural and patristic support for her position. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2005, 04:55:30 PM »

I do not hold to papal supremacy but one could argue that the following quotes do:

“Peter, who is called 'the rock on which the church should be built,' who also obtained 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven...'” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against the Heretics, 22 (c. A.D. 200).

“And Peter, on whom the Church of Christ is built, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail...” Origen, Commentary on John, 5:3 (A.D. 232).

“By this Spirit Peter spake that blessed word, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' By this Spirit the rock of the Church was established.” Hippolytus, Discourse on the Holy Theophany, 9 (ante A.D. 235).

“'...thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church' ... It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness...If a man does not fast to this oneness of Peter, does he still imagine that he still holds the faith. If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?” Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae (Primacy text), 4 (A.D. 251).

“...folly of (Pope) Stephen, that he who boasts of the place of the episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundation of the Church were laid...” Firmilian, Epistle To Cyprian, Epistle 75(74):17(A.D. 256).

“...Peter, that strongest and greatest of all the apostles, and the one who on account of his virtue was the speaker for all the others...” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 2:14 (A.D. 325).

“And Peter,on whom the Church of Christ is built, 'against which the gates of hell shall not prevail'” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 6:25 (A.D. 325).

“...the chief of the disciples...the Lord accepted him, set him up as the foundation, called him the rock and structure of the church.” Aphraates, De Paenitentibus Homily 7:15 (A.D. 337).

“Peter, the foremost of the Apostles, and Chief Herald of the Church...” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures,1 1:3 (A.D. 350).

lessed Simon, who after his confession of the mystery was set to be the foundation-stone of the Church, and received the keys of the kingdom...” Hilary de Poiters, On the Trinity, 6:20(A.D. 359).

« Last Edit: January 14, 2005, 04:56:59 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #57 on: January 14, 2005, 04:55:58 PM »

Thank you, Mor Ephrem. I was going to post something to the effect of "that's a BIG IF".
But I don't have to now.  Wink

But this thread is starting to set off my 'sniff-test' alarms.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2005, 04:57:38 PM by +æ-ü+¦-â-ä+++¦+++«-é » Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #58 on: January 14, 2005, 05:05:34 PM »

I do not hold to papal supremacy but one could argue that the following quotes do:

I took the name Peter upon entering the Church because of the fact that his confession and him as a man could hardly be separated.  Which is why, I think, the Fathers were so "divided" (and those are big quotes there, folks) on what "The Rock" was.  As I posted earlier, you can't disembody belief without destroying both.  Peter was the Rock, as long as he held to his confession of Christ, the Rock.
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #59 on: January 14, 2005, 05:11:48 PM »

Bravo, Pedro, bravo! (Works in Greek AND Spanish)
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #60 on: January 14, 2005, 08:02:46 PM »

The quotes I provided not only suggest that Peter is the rock but that he was also supreme among the apostles and that the Bishop of Rome is the successor to his special authority.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,785


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #61 on: January 14, 2005, 08:07:45 PM »

Oh, where is Orthodoc when you need him??  Smiley
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #62 on: January 14, 2005, 08:14:50 PM »

The reason why I do not believe in papal supremacy is the terrible fruit this religious-political authority has caused.

Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Therefore by their fruits you will know them."
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,094


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #63 on: January 14, 2005, 08:21:59 PM »

Quote
The quotes I provided not only suggest that Peter is the rock but that he was also supreme among the apostles and that the Bishop of Rome is the successor to his special authority.

Beginning with the Scripture, the Church also teaches that there is no authority where there is also false teaching or schism. Authority can never be severed from orthodox faith and praxis. Would anyone have followed Judas Iscariot after he had fallen, even though he was given the extreme honor of being counted among the twelve? Peter, and his successors, indeed had a primacy of honor, and were first among equals. They were the visible head of the Church... except at those times in which they were unorthodox (e.g., Roman Pope Honorius, posthumously anathematized by the 6th Ecumenical Council). From an Orthodox perspective, we are obviously at one of those points where Rome isn't authoritative right now, and have been so for a long time.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2005, 08:23:33 PM by Paradosis » Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2005, 08:27:48 PM »

If Byzantine Catholicism has the fullness of Orthodox liturgy and Orthodox doctrine but is under the juristiction of Rome, then wouldn't joining this church solve the struggle of one who struggles between Latin and Orthodoxy?

No, because as has been pointed out, it does not have such fulness.  You can't be in communion with heresy, which is an Orthodox doctrine. Papal infallibility is a heresy.

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Marjorie
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 167


OC.net


WWW
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2005, 08:33:04 PM »

One should remember that Orthodoxy is not aesthetics but a living communion. Byzantine Catholicism is no "closer" to Orthodoxy than Catholicism or indeed *anything* outside of the Church, because, as John Zizioulas stated, "the Word of God does not dwell in the human mind as rational knowledge or in the human soul as mystical inner experience, but as communion within a community."

Marjorie
Logged

"The land of God is wide and large enough to provide room for everyone if we are humans. If we act like brutes, then there will not be enough room even if there are only four of us."

- His Holiness Patriarch +PAVLE of Serbia
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2005, 08:44:51 PM »


Beginning with the Scripture, the Church also teaches that there is no authority where there is also false teaching or schism.
The reason why I do not believe in papal supremacy is the terrible fruit this religious-political authority has caused.

Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Therefore by their fruits you will know them."
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #67 on: January 16, 2005, 05:41:58 PM »

Now on the Church's emphasis of "right worship"
-"Orthodoxy is primarily liturgical. It informs and enlightens the people not so much by sermons and the teaching of norms and laws but by liturgical services themselves which give a foreshadowing of transfigured life. It likewise teaches the people through the examples of saints and instills the cult of holiness. But the images of saints are not normative; to them is granted the graceful enlightenment and transfiguration of creation by the action of the Holy Spirit. This, not being the normative type for Orthodoxy, makes it more difficult for the ways of human life, for history; it makes it less attractive for any kind of organization and for cultural creativity. The hidden mystery of the Holy Spirit's activity upon creation has not been actually realized by the ways of historical life. Characteristic for Orthodoxy is FREEDOM. This internal freedom may not be noticed from the outside but it is everywhere present. The idea of freedom as the foundation of Orthodoxy was developed in Russian religious thinking of the XIX and XX centuries. The admission of the freedom of conscience radically distinguishes the Orthodox Church from the Catholic Church. But the understanding of freedom in Orthodoxy is different from the understanding of freedom in Protestantism. In Protestantism, as in all Western thought, freedom is understood individualistically, as a personal right, preserved from encroachment on the part of any other person, and declaring it to be autonomous. Individualism is foreign to Orthodoxy, to it belongs a particular collectivism. A religious person and a religious collective are not incompatible with each other, as external friend to friend. The religious person is found within the religious collective and the religious collective is found within the religious person. Thus the religious collective does not become an external authority for the religious person, burdening the person externally with teaching and the law of life. The Church is not outside of religious persons, opposed to her. The Church is within them and they are within her. Thus the Church is not an authority. The Church is a grace-filled unity of love and freedom. Authoritativeness is incompatible with Orthodoxy because this form engenders a fracture between the religious collective and the religious person, between the Church and her members. There is no spiritual life without the freedom of conscience, there is not even a concept of the Church, since the Church does not tolerate slaves within her, but God wants only the free. But the authentic freedom of religious conscience, freedom of the spirit, is made evident not in an isolated autonomous personality, self-asserted in individualism but in a personality conscious of being in a superpersonal spiritual unity, in a unity with a spiritual organism, within the Body of Christ, i.e. the Church. My personal conscience is not placed outside and is not placed in opposition to the superpersonal conscience of the Church, it is revealed only within the Church's conscience. But, without an active spiritual deepening of my personal conscience, of my personal spiritual freedom, the life of the Church is not realized, since this life cannot be external to, nor be imposed upon, the person. Participation in the Church demands spiritual freedom, not only from the first entry into the Church, which Catholicism also recognizes, but throughout one's whole life. The Church's freedom with respect to the State was always precarious, but Orthodoxy always enjoyed freedom within the Church. In Orthodoxy freedom is organically linked with Sobornost', i.e. with the activity of the Holy Spirit upon the religious collective which has been with the Church not only during the times of the Ecumenical Councils, but at all times. Sobornost' in Orthodoxy, which is the life of the Church's people, never had any external juridical signs. Not even the Ecumenical Councils enjoyed indisputable external authority. The infallibility of authority was enjoyed only by the whole Church throughout her whole history, and the bearers and custodians of this authority were the whole people of the Church. The Ecumenical Councils enjoyed their authority not because they conformed with external juridical legal requirements but because the people of the Church, the whole Church recognized them as Ecumenical and genuine. Only that Ecumenical Council is genuine in which there was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit; the outpouring of the Holy Spirit has no external juridical criteria, it is discerned by the people of the Church in accordance with internal spiritual evidence. All this indicates a nonnormative nonjuridical character of the Orthodox Church. Along with this the Orthodox consciousness understands the Church more ontologically, i.e. it doesn't see the Church primarily as an organization and an establishment, not just a society of faithful, but as a spiritual, religious organism, the Mystical Body of Christ. Orthodoxy is more cosmic than Western Christianity. Neither Catholicism nor Protestantism sufficiently expresses the cosmic nature of the Church, as the Body of Christ. Western Christianity is primarily anthropological. But the Church is also the Christianized cosmos; within her, the whole created world is subject to the effect of the grace of the Holy Spirit. Christ's appearance has a cosmic, cosmogonic significance; it signifies somehow a new creation, a new day of the world's creation."
 http://www.kosovo.com/ortruth.html
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
francis
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 24



« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2005, 09:33:28 AM »

grip (we meet yet again Smiley ),

I'll pray for you for right discernment. I would recommend that you speak to an Orthodox priest, an Eastern Catholic priest, as well as a Roman Catholic priest. In addition, read, read, read from each of these sources. I would also agree with the person who recommended that you take this journey with your wife - that is the ideal situation. She may have insights you are blind to, and vice versa.

But most of all: pray, pray, pray!!!




Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.192 seconds with 95 queries.