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Author Topic: Struggling Between Latin and Orthodoxy  (Read 8490 times) Average Rating: 0
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the_grip
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« on: January 12, 2005, 02:05:13 AM »

Greetings! i was recently recommended to these forums, and i have already found a wealth in the little i have read.

i was a Reformed Calvinist Presbyterian (PCA) for many years, but i really struggled with it. About a year ago, i made the decision that i was not following the teachings of the One, Holy, and Apostolic Church, and fortunately God listened to my prayers. i met a priest of a very orthodox Anglican parish in the city i live in (Dallas, TX), and i was confirmed into the Anglican communion last summer.

However, i feel this is only the first step of my journey. i believe that the eyes of my heart are being opened, and i have begun reading many books on Orthodoxy and the Latin communions. i'm still not convinced that the Anglican church is the endpoint of my journey.

Thus, i am beginning to struggle even more. My heart has begun to call me to Orthodoxy, but i'm still wrestling with the whole issue of the papacy and the Latin communion. Further, my wife feels that she would want to join the Latin communion if it were not for our Anglican parish (whereas i would probably join the Orthodox Church).

i don't have much time to elaborate now, but, in the interim, i would appreciate the prayers of those who are so inclined.

In peace,
the_grip
« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 02:06:00 AM by the_grip » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2005, 02:18:20 AM »

the_grip,

wlecome to the forum! you certainly have my prayers - i would encourage you to make this journey with your wife if possible, since ultimately and *ideally* the decision would be made together, and the decision would be the same for both of you. have you talked to priests from either the Orthodox or Latin Church? have you visited and witnessed an Orthodox Divine Liturgy yet? i recommend doing both of these, with your wife, along with reading books about both Churches (as you have been), and take it from there. Smiley please keep us updated, and feel free to post about any questions you may have - a good board for you might be the Orthodox-Catholic board, where you can ask questions that will help you work out the differences between the two.
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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2005, 01:07:19 PM »

Hi there.  I noticed your thread over on the Catholic convert board and thought I'd address your question about England here. 

When the Orthodox say that England was Orthodox, they don't mean that it was eastern Orthodox (ignore the silly response you got questioning whether they said the Divine Liturgy in England before the schism - not all Orthodox use the Byzantine rite but that person probably doesn't even know that).  What they mean is that before the schism, the English Church was in full communion with the Orthodox Church, hence it was Orthodox. 

« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 01:32:30 PM by Jennifer » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2005, 01:25:27 PM »

Jennifer,

Thanks for your response. It was over a year ago that i was taught about this connection, and it was from a ROCOR priest in San Francisco (so it's not an Anglican preference or anything). i haven't had the time to dig up my notes, but i knew the connection was there somewhere. What you said falls in line with exactly what he taught.

The priest essentially told me, "Many people assume that the Anglican church was a Roman church - however, it actually was Orthodox.  The earliest English Christians were Orthodox Christians."

In peace,
the_grip
« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 01:27:12 PM by the_grip » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2005, 01:44:10 PM »

Of course the flip side of this is some idiot Roman Catholic "historian" claiming that Hagia Sophia was a "Byzantine Catholic Church." 

I'm not familiar with the pre-schism history of the English Church.  It certainly was western but I understand there's some debate about how 'roman' it was.  My gut feeling is that it's incorrect to say that it was never 'roman.'  Before the schism, its patriarch was the Pope of Rome.  Its mother Church was the Church of Rome just like the mother Church of the western Orthodox Churches is the Church of Rome (the historical Church of Rome). 
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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2005, 02:14:46 PM »

There is a canonical Western-Rite Orthodox church in Dallas, if you or your wife is interested.  It's under the Antiochians.

http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/
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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2005, 02:41:06 PM »

You state:

[ i met a priest of a very orthodox Anglican parish in the city i live in (Dallas, TX), and i was confirmed into the Anglican communion last summer.]

Since you live in Dallas, Texas I might suggest both you and your wife attend a servive at the OCA Cathedral -

http://www.stseraphim.org/

Many of the parishioners are converts from a similiar background as yours.  Including Archbishop Dimitri who is from a Baptist background.

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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2005, 02:55:31 PM »

Jennifer,

Thanks for your response.  It was over a year ago that i was taught about this connection, and it was from a ROCOR priest in San Francisco (so it's not an Anglican preference or anything).  i haven't had the time to dig up my notes, but i knew the connection was there somewhere.  What you said falls in line with exactly what he taught.

The priest essentially told me, "Many people assume that the Anglican church was a Roman church - however, it actually was Orthodox. The earliest English Christians were Orthodox Christians."

In peace,
the_grip

Was that Fr. Peter Perekrestov?  He's the Dean of Joy of All Who Sorrows Cathedral on Geary St.  He's very nice.
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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2005, 04:01:33 PM »

Why not have the "best of both worlds" and become a Byzantine Catholic?
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« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2005, 04:18:18 PM »

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Why not have the "best of both worlds" and become a Byzantine Catholic?

I'm starting to think that you are a troll.  Sad

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« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2005, 04:24:07 PM »

I am definitely not. I have been a member of the Malankara Church for two years. Please understand that two of our priests and a deacon are converts from Catholicism and so is almost half the parish. We are rather tolerant of Roman Catholics and do not discourage them from practicing and enjoying their faith.
We appreciate the beliefs and practices that we share in common with Roman Catholics and do not allow our differences to be a stumbling block to peace between us as fellow Christians.

Just because I am tolerant of Catholicism does not mean that I am unsincere in my commitment to Orthodoxy.

The only plan I have for after college and where I feel that God is leading me is to joint an Orthodox monastery. It amazes me that in my theatre class at college, in the group I am in to do group projects, there is a fellow Orthodox Christian who just so happens to have lived for five months at Vashon Island that I did not meet until I took this class.
That, to me, is not a coincidence.
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« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2005, 04:27:03 PM »

My appreciation for the Byzantine Catholic Church does not make me a "troll".
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« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2005, 04:29:49 PM »

Quote
Was that Fr. Peter Perekrestov? He's the Dean of Joy of All Who Sorrows Cathedral on Geary St. He's very nice.

i am ashamed to admit it, but i cannot remember his name. It was in the Holy Virgin Cathedral Bookstore that we spoke for about an hour. He was extremely nice... i felt like i could speak with him for quite a bit longer than we did. To be honest, i hear quite a bit of bad talk about the ROCOR as being cold, hard, exclusivist, isolationist, etc. etc., but every ROCOR person i've met has shown nothing less than honest love and kindness. Where do they get all the bad rap from? It has been a great joy for me to experience people in the ROCOR - literally every single one of them. i might also add that visiting the Holy Virgin Cathedral was one of the single most meaningful experiences in my life.

Thanks also to the recommendation above for St. Seraphim's Cathedral in Dallas. i've always wanted to visit there, and the PCA (Presbyterian) church i grew up in is just down the block (so i've walked past it many, many times). i have to wonder if all the prayers in that cathedral didn't somehow affect me... Wink

i know this might be slightly off-topic, but i've also learned to pray the Rosary over the past year (after becoming Anglican). i use the older Latin form without the Luminous Mysteries. Is one recommended to give up the Rosary upon entry into the Orthodox Church? i know about all the warnings about using imagination during prayer, and i do have a very active imagination. To be honest, it has practically made me scared to pray simply because i don't want to be disobedient or praying amiss. Prayer through images is somewhat second-nature to me.

Thanks for all the help. i hope all of you know that it is well received and appreciated.

Peace to you,
the_grip
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« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2005, 04:34:09 PM »

i know this might be slightly off-topic, but i've also learned to pray the Rosary over the past year

If praying the Rosary helps you grow in your faith as an Orthodox Christian and brings you closer to Theotokos, I do not see a problem with it. However, I have not prayed the rosary since I converted to Orthodoxy two years ago.

i know about all the warnings about using imagination during prayer, and i do have a very active imagination.

What warnings? I am reading The Way of the Pilgrim and in the beginning, a monk reccomends to the pilgrim that he imagine his own heart while praying.

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« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2005, 04:39:36 PM »

Quote
We are rather tolerant of Roman Catholics and do not discourage them from practicing and enjoying their faith.
We appreciate the beliefs and practices that we share in common with Roman Catholics and do not allow our differences to be a stumbling block to peace between us as fellow Christians.
Just because I am tolerant of Catholicism does not mean that I am unsincere in my commitment to Orthodoxy.

I won't comment on the Malankara church since it has been discussed many times on this forum. I won't open a can of worms. Therefore, I will only comment on your quote in general terms.

Why is faith, or more importantly THE FAITH, often times viewed and understood in a minimalist way? Why do we often times try to find those things which we have in common and leave it at that. Shouldn't we try to resolve those things that divide us so that those who are mistaken may experience the fullness of the Faith?

Why be tolerant of Catholicism? The fact that they are not Orthodox is a scandal: they don't have the fullness of the Faith. It doesn't mean that one should hate Catholics or battle with them. But in all charity and love we should correct them.

Orthodoxy is a precious pearl and we are called to sell everything for it. Why then should we not share this joy for the other's spiritual healing?

Gregory

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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2005, 04:39:50 PM »

Fr. Patrick Reardon, Antiochian priest in Chicago, told me that he still says the western rosary. 
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« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2005, 04:44:05 PM »

Quote
What warnings? I am reading The Way of the Pilgrim and in the beginning, a monk reccomends to the pilgrim that he imagine his own heart while praying.

i'm also reading that book right now! It is absolutely wonderful and very uplifting for me.

Regarding the imagination, i have heard that all over the place. Just recently, in this thread on the Rosary. i have also read in places that it is forbidden to pray the Jesus prayer and visualize your "internals." For example, i read someplace that to breathe in, imagine the air going into your lungs with the words, "Lord Jesus Christ," imagine your circulatory system, etc. etc. taking this in, and then exhaling with the words, "have mercy on me, a sinner," is strictly forbidden. However, you are right - the pilgrim says the prayer in rhythm to his heartbeat.

Naturally i'm very confused. i do have hope that i will get this sorted out with God's help and that of the Church.

Your friend,
the_grip
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« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2005, 04:49:13 PM »



 But in all charity and love we should correct them.


Who am I to correct a Roman Catholic? I am not saying that we should dilute our faith in order to tolerate thiers. We should just appreciate what we share in common and leave it at that without rebuking them. We have the right to say, "This is what we believe and why" but I would not go on to say, "In order to believe in the one true Christian faith, you must believe the same as I do".
I believe in ecumenism between Orthodox and Catholic Christians, not triumphalism.
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« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2005, 04:50:04 PM »

I recommend talking to an Orthodox priest about this.  It's much better to have personal spiritual guidance than to read something on the internet.  Since you're in Dallas, you have access to both western and eastern Orthodox churches.  Attend liturgy at both places and make an appointment with the priests. 
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« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2005, 05:11:56 PM »

I agree with Jennifer.  You won't find the answers here or anywhere on the 'net.  This monstrosity we are all entangled in is no substitute for the advice of a living, breathing priest.
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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2005, 05:14:16 PM »

Very good advice.  Thanks for the recommendation!

Yours,
the_grip
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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2005, 05:22:28 PM »

My appreciation for the Byzantine Catholic Church does not make me a "troll".

But recommending someone become Byzantine Catholic on an Orthodox forum is not going to be taken well.  Most of us believe the Orthodox Church is the true Church.  I appreciate the Catholic Church but I advise Catholics to become Orthodox since it is the fulness of the faith.  Furthermore, as a former Byzantine Catholic, I am somewhat perturbed by your suggestion that it is the best of both worlds. Have you ever been Byzantine Catholic? It's NOT the best of both worlds, sorry.

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« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2005, 05:23:52 PM »

I agree with Jennifer. You won't find the answers here or anywhere on the 'net. This monstrosity we are all entangled in is no substitute for the advice of a living, breathing priest.

Agreed--and I am one of the admins. Smiley  I think that on our forum and site you will find fellowship and facts. But make sure you have regular contact with the liturgical life and the spiritual guidance of a priest, in order to "experience" Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2005, 05:24:43 PM »



i'm also reading that book right now!  It is absolutely wonderful and very uplifting for me.

Regarding the imagination, i have heard that all over the place.  Just recently, in this thread on the Rosary.  i have also read in places that it is forbidden to pray the Jesus prayer and visualize your "internals."  For example, i read someplace that to breathe in, imagine the air going into your lungs with the words, "Lord Jesus Christ," imagine your circulatory system, etc. etc. taking this in, and then exhaling with the words, "have mercy on me, a sinner," is strictly forbidden.  However, you are right - the pilgrim says the prayer in rhythm to his heartbeat.

Naturally i'm very confused.  i do have hope that i will get this sorted out with God's help and that of the Church.

Your friend,
the_grip

No, it is not forbidden. What is foribidden is to do this on your own WITHOUT a priest's blessing and guidance Smiley

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« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2005, 05:26:16 PM »

A few things...

What they mean is that before the schism, the English Church was in full communion with the Orthodox Church, hence it was Orthodox.

The English Church was Roman in many different aspects (language, many aspects of the Sarum Rite were later influenced by Rome's liturgy, vestments in some places)...guess you could call it "Roman Orthodox"...though the RCs have just as legitimate a claim to calling England "Catholic," as it's just a matter of who's side you're on now to look back in hindsight and say, "See, they really would have agreed with us!"

Likewise they could legitimately say that Hagia Sophia was "Byzantine Catholic," as it was quite Byzantine and, up until the schism, in communion with the so-called "Apostolic See," so there you go...

There is a canonical Western-Rite Orthodox church in Dallas, if you or your wife is interested. It's under the Antiochians.

http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/

Bit of a correction: it's in Fort Worth, which is the good part of an hour's drive away. It's about ten minutes away from my house!

To be honest, i hear quite a bit of bad talk about the ROCOR as being cold, hard, exclusivist, isolationist, etc. etc., but every ROCOR person i've met has shown nothing less than honest love and kindness. Where do they get all the bad rap from?

I'm glad you had such a wonderful experience with the ROCOR. Indeed, my experience with them has been almost entirely good, with much civility and respect shown on both sides. There are, though, those within ROCOR who are the "vocal minority" that scream that all those who were received only through chrismation and not through baptism aren't really Orthodox and they need to be baptized when received into ROCOR, who call us heretics, schismatics, apostates, etc., and who rant about calendar and ecumenism as if we were in bed with the Unitarians. Like I said, they're the minority, but unfortunately, they're the ones you hear the most from online.

Plus, there's the issue of whether or not ROCOR was justified in separating themselves from the Patriarch of Moscow. That's a hairy one, as it has to do with who the "legitimate heir" of Russian Orthodoxy is, especially here in the States.

Is one recommended to give up the Rosary upon entry into the Orthodox Church?

I wasn't, though I've since stopped using it since I created that thread months ago. Mostly due to my desire to have public and private devotion "match" as much as I can. When I attend St. Peter's for Evensong I prepare by using my Prayer Beads to pray the Ave Maria (usually I pray the Jesus Prayer on them).

i know about all the warnings about using imagination during prayer, and i do have a very active imagination. To be honest, it has practically made me scared to pray simply because i don't want to be disobedient or praying amiss. Prayer through images is somewhat second-nature to me.

That thread got some interesting responses, to be sure. I read Unseen Warfare (as edited by St. Nikodemos of the Holy Mt. and St. Theophan the Recluse) and several times it was mentioned that we are to clear our minds of pictures, calling out to Christ as the unknowable second Person of the Trinity.

I'm no expert then, as I've just learned this myself, but there's my $0.02.
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« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2005, 05:28:59 PM »


I appreciate the Catholic Church but I advise Catholics to become Orthodox since it is the fulness of the faith.


Doesn't Byazantine Catholicism contain Orthodox practice and doctrine? Isn't the only real difference between us and Byzantines their commitment to the papacy?


Have you ever been Byzantine Catholic? It's NOT the best of both worlds, sorry.


I said that in quotes for a reason. It's what my father told me when I decided to leave Roman Catholicism in favor of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2005, 05:30:46 PM »

Thanks Anastasios. i do so appreciate your help in my struggles here.

i am planning on getting in touch with an Orthodox priest (most likely at St. Seraphim Cathedral), but, in the interim, is there explicit prohibitions for using the Jesus Prayer without the guidance of a priest? Of course, i don't mean to the extent that a monk would - i.e. 800-1200 times a day, etc. i only ask because i have found great comfort in it long before i knew what it was (when i was a Presbyterian i used to recite the words of the tax collector from the parable - "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner." i did this quite often).

Also, is there a strict prohibition on imagination and/or the Rosary? i don't want to pray these things if i am in error. Again, i do plan to get in touch with a priest, but i am curious as to what people have been taught.

Thanks again for all your help - all of you. My experience on this forum has been great thus far.

Peace,
the_grip
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« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2005, 05:36:41 PM »

Pedro,

Quote
I'm no expert then, as I've just learned this myself, but there's my $0.02.

i was working up my previous response to Anastasios when you posted this. Thank you for your insight!

Regarding Ft. Worth, i love the new modern art museum. i do enjoy Anselm Kiefer's work (which there are several pieces of) - although i'm not sure what he was after on some of them (i.e. the Quaternity... seems a bit sacreligious, to say the least... although he is Jewish).

Sorry to digress... thanks again for your help!

Yours,
the_grip
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« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2005, 05:43:41 PM »



Doesn't Byazantine Catholicism contain Orthodox practice and doctrine? Isn't the only real difference between us and Byzantines their commitment to the papacy?



I said that in quotes for a reason. It's what my father told me when I decided to leave Roman Catholicism in favor of Orthodoxy.

OK fair enough. Allow me to explain. Byzantine Catholicism is good for people who are Catholic in doctrine and who want to be Byzantine Catholic.  It's not Roman Catholic, and it's not Orthodox, so people who want to be Roman Catholic but go BC for the "more traditional liturgy" oftentimes get burnt out, and people who want the fulness of Orthodox praxis often get burned out because it is NOT the fulness of Orthodox praxis (there are a few exceptions here and there, such as Holy Transfiguration Melkite in McLean, VA, etc.).  Even if it were externally the same as Orthodoxy 100% it produces conflict in those who consider themselves Orthodox in communion with Rome because too much compromise, second-guessing of one's hierarch, etc., is required.

If one is Byzantine Catholic because he believes in Byzantine Catholicism, it'll work for him.  But if one has other designs than to just accept it on its own merit, he will become frustrated and leave eventually.

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« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2005, 05:46:03 PM »

I think that's one of the best things you've ever posted on the subject, Dustin, and I, as an eastward leaning Roman Catholic, would agree with you Smiley
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« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2005, 06:30:01 PM »

[Why not have the "best of both worlds" and become a Byzantine Catholic?]

And be neither 'here' nor 'there'!

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« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2005, 06:46:56 PM »

Quote
i am ashamed to admit it, but i cannot remember his name.  It was in the Holy Virgin Cathedral Bookstore that we spoke for about an hour.  He was extremely nice... i felt like i could speak with him for quite a bit longer than we did.  To be honest, i hear quite a bit of bad talk about the ROCOR as being cold, hard, exclusivist, isolationist, etc. etc., but every ROCOR person i've met has shown nothing less than honest love and kindness.  Where do they get all the bad rap from?  It has been a great joy for me to experience people in the ROCOR - literally every single one of them.  i might also add that visiting the Holy Virgin Cathedral was one of the single most meaningful experiences in my life.

It must be Father Demitri...He's been there everytime I go to buy some stuff from thier store. Also spend a good amount of time talking to him also hehe Afro...Wish I lived a little closer to Holy Virgin because I would love to visit more often.

Quote
i know this might be slightly off-topic, but i've also learned to pray the Rosary over the past year (after becoming Anglican).  i use the older Latin form without the Luminous Mysteries.  Is one recommended to give up the Rosary upon entry into the Orthodox Church?  i know about all the warnings about using imagination during prayer, and i do have a very active imagination.  To be honest, it has practically made me scared to pray simply because i don't want to be disobedient or praying amiss.  Prayer through images is somewhat second-nature to me.
 

I sometimes pray the rosary even though I have never been RC. I was attending an high anglican type church (no affiliation with ECUSA though) for many years and still have a love for some of the "western" practices, especially the eucharistic rite in the liturgy. I sometimes also use my imaginatation because I have always been a very visual type of person especially when it comes to learning. When I'm praying and for some reason I can't focus I just ussually visualize an icon in my head which seems to help. Nothing too creative, I like to keep it very simple in order to keep my focus.   
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« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2005, 06:53:02 PM »

Why is faith, or more importantly THE FAITH, often times viewed and understood in a minimalist way?
Why be tolerant of Catholicism? The fact that they are not Orthodox is a scandal: they don't have the fullness of the Faith. It doesn't mean that one should hate Catholics or battle with them. But in all charity and love we should correct them.

Orthodoxy is a precious pearl and we are called to sell everything for it. Why then should we not share this joy for the other's spiritual healing?


Right on.  Afro
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« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2005, 08:55:13 PM »


Even if it were externally the same as Orthodoxy 100% it produces conflict in those who consider themselves Orthodox in communion with Rome because too much compromise, second-guessing of one's hierarch, etc., is required.

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Are there any other things that you don't like about Byzantine Catholicism?
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« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2005, 09:28:48 PM »

I would think that being eastern catholic would be a much better option for RC's (who want to stay RC) that may be tired and unimpressed with all the watered down changes since Vatican 2. Awhile back I attended two eastern RC's a few times in my area (melkite & byzantine) and couldn't beleive how small they were. The byzantine church from what I understand was close to going under because there were less than 20 people that show up for divine liturgy. I would think these churches would be overflowing with disastisfied RC's with the current condition of the RC church but I guess that's not appearantly true. 
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« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2005, 10:00:46 PM »

I would think these churches would be overflowing with disastisfied RC's with the current condition of the RC church but I guess that's not appearantly true.

The problem is that too many American Catholics are totally ignorant of the Eastern Catholic Churches.
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« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2005, 01:30:40 PM »

Nacho,

Quote
It must be Father Demitri...He's been there everytime I go to buy some stuff from thier store.

My wife refreshed my memory last night.  It was Father Demitri.  He may not remember us, but please tell him hello next time you see him and that our conversation with him was a blessing for us.  The icon prints i purchased from the bookstore remind me of him every time i look at them.  From my experience, he is a wonderful man.

Peace to you,
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« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2005, 01:51:21 PM »



Are there any other things that you don't like about Byzantine Catholicism?

Yes but I don't want to bash my former Church.

Anastasios
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« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2005, 02:49:11 PM »

I would think that being eastern catholic would be a much better option for RC's (who want to stay RC) that may be tired and unimpressed with all the watered down changes since Vatican 2. Awhile back I attended two eastern RC's a few times in my area (melkite & byzantine) and couldn't beleive how small they were. The byzantine church from what I understand was close to going under because there were less than 20 people that show up for divine liturgy. I would think these churches would be overflowing with disastisfied RC's with the current condition of the RC church but I guess that's not appearantly true.

Don't forget that, technically, Roman Catholics are not allowed to "cross over" and become Byzantine, and the reverse is also true, unless they marry somebody of the other rite. I believe also, that, technically at least, the Byzantine Catholic Churches are only allowed to accept converts from Orthodoxy. I don't see these rules being followed rigorously, but if a whole bunch of Latins wanted to become Byzantines, Rome might not be too pleased. Anastasios and others might wish to correct me on this, or at least augment what I wrote, but I think this is the official position.
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« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2005, 03:06:33 PM »

Actually, Pravoslavbob, I believe that one can change from RC to EC ONCE with the approval of the Latin bishop and the EC bishop.  The "switcher" is then stuck in that new jurisdiction.  ECs, however, cannot change. 

I can't remember how it works with marriage, not that it really matters.  ECs tell me the designations are irrelevant.  I disagree, but I'm not EC.
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« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2005, 03:29:09 PM »

Once in a lifetime, a Catholic, say of the Latin Rite, can petition his bishop and the appropriate Eastern Catholic bishop for a canonical switch of rite.  With the blessing of one's pastor, letters are written to the bishops requesting this switch.  Both have to agree.  In theory, it should be relatively easy if the requestor is sincerely switching rites because of true pastoral need and not just because he or she is running away from the liturgical nightmare that often occurs in the Roman rite.  Some Latin bishops don't like to lose flock, however, and sit on the petition, much like Lincoln's famous "pocket veto".  Unfair, yes, but not "illegal" by any means.  The normal practice is to be a member of an Eastern Catholic parish for a few years before petition for the switch.  I've never known anyone who has been outright denied, but I have known people who have been cautioned to wait a little longer to see if that's what they truly wanted.  In the end, they did switch rites.

As far as marriage goes, I believe that, canonically speaking, one gets married in the rite of the husband and the wife becomes the rite of her spouse, and all children are to be brought up in the husband's rite. 

As far as the reception of converts, it is officially encouraged that each particular church only accept converts from similar liturgical traditions, but I don't think that's followed rigorously.  I believe our own Anastasios was accepted into the Byzantine Catholic church from a western tradition on his own road to Orthodoxy.  Technically speaking, he should've become a Roman Catholic. 
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« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2005, 03:41:46 PM »

Why petition the Latin Church before one can enter the Byzantine Church? It is the Latin Church that is corrupted, in my opinion.
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« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2005, 03:51:18 PM »

Okay, here's the rundown.

If I were to in the future decide to officially become a member of the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Church, a parish of which I haven attended every Sunday for almost three years now, I, as a Latin Rite Catholic, would have to take up the matter with my bishop, as I am, as a Roman Catholic, subject to him in all things regarding faith. 

I may be off base, but I believe the same goes for our Orthodox brethren here.  The local bishop is the head of the local church, period.  He, in accordance with his brother bishops, has the final say on spiritual matters, especially "canonical" ones.

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« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2005, 04:00:08 PM »

Quote
I may be off base, but I believe the same goes for our Orthodox brethren here.

Unfortunately, in the alphabet-soup jurisdictional situation we have in America, I think laymen (and even readers and whatnot) can pretty much switch without much "ok" from above. Certainly the bishop has the final say... I think we just don't involve him in that say as much. That's been my experience anyway (fwiw, when I went from Antiochian to the Church Abroad, I was considered part of the local ROCOR parish after I had done a typical confession and communed; I didn't contact a bishop from either jurisdiction because I thought it really wasn't something they'd be so concerned about that they would have wanted me to contact them about).
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« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2005, 04:03:38 PM »

Well, maybe not in terms of "switching jurisdictions", especially in the USA, but in overall matters, the bishop is where the buck stops, so to speak, right?
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