OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 28, 2014, 07:00:20 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Was Christ really Jewish?  (Read 6919 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine
Posts: 10,015


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #315 on: March 08, 2013, 02:00:52 PM »

I know now that you don't know what fascism is. Along with that guy from Whole Foods.

Perhaps..Fill me in then.. Or is this just a pot shot?



Yes, please do.  Now's your chance, orthonorm, to post something of educational substance.  
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 02:01:25 PM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,520


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #316 on: March 08, 2013, 02:06:58 PM »

I was asked what kind of Socialist I am.

In the past I was a member of the Socialist Workers Party which is Trotskyist.

There are two main groups of Socialists (with many sub groups).

1. Social Democrats who believe Capitalism can be reformed and society will evolve into Socialism. They run candidates who hope to get elected ( not just educational campaigns) and envision passing laws and changing polices.

2. Revolutionary Socialists. These groups don't believe Capitalism can be reformed. They believe the Capitalist Class will not give up power without a big fight. Ultimately getting people elected will be a dead end if they become a real threat to the Captialist Class. (Google on the FBI's Cointel distruption Program)

The other distinction is that Social Democrats reject Marx's view of a Dictatorship of the Proletariat. They think the Working Class and the Capitalist Class can coexist.

Revolutionary Socialists maintain that the Dictatorship of the Proletariat is inevitable. They intend to destroy the Capitalist Class ( the so called 1%)and replace it with everyone else (the 99%).

I personally tend to the latter though I am not obliged to follow any Party these days, so I differ on some points. I don't think the Capitalist Class will peacefully turn over power though it would obviously be the best scenario.
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #317 on: March 08, 2013, 02:16:08 PM »

I know now that you don't know what fascism is. Along with that guy from Whole Foods.

Perhaps..Fill me in then.. Or is this just a pot shot?



Yes, please do.  Now's your chance, orthonorm, to post something of educational substance.  

I think I've addressed this elsewhere. Probably on the private board.

Anyone with the smattering of education about the history of WWII would know the history and meaning of fascism. I'll do your work for you and search for the post.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #318 on: March 08, 2013, 02:19:03 PM »

I know now that you don't know what fascism is. Along with that guy from Whole Foods.

Perhaps..Fill me in then.. Or is this just a pot shot?



Yes, please do.  Now's your chance, orthonorm, to post something of educational substance.  

I think I've addressed this elsewhere. Probably on the private board.

Anyone with the smattering of education about the history of WWII would know the history and meaning of fascism. I'll do your work for you and search for the post.

Here is a redacted post of mine from the politics section to make it compliant with the rules of this section (Mods please let me know if I've inadvertently broken a rule here):

Quote
Fascism is basically a group of people dedicated to an ideology. That's it. You could even argue it's not that tightly defined. It comes from Mussolini's political group. The Italian word fascio literally had all the associations that group or association has in English or Vereinigung has in German.

And if we are going to take Mussolini's group's point of departure as the definition for fascism, then it would mean anti-communismism. And if you had to paint it into a more specific corner, then yes it means a strong nationalistic regime which tends to support a MIXED economy. Some sectors being purely private, others purely public, others a mixture of cooperation between the public and private sector.

It's this latter economic approach of Italian fascism which gets too much attention, probably because it is what is somewhat different about the movement.

However, I really think fascism was, is, and will be an empty word.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 02:19:40 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine
Posts: 10,015


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #319 on: March 08, 2013, 02:32:43 PM »

I know now that you don't know what fascism is. Along with that guy from Whole Foods.

Perhaps..Fill me in then.. Or is this just a pot shot?



Yes, please do.  Now's your chance, orthonorm, to post something of educational substance.  

I think I've addressed this elsewhere. Probably on the private board.

Anyone with the smattering of education about the history of WWII would know the history and meaning of fascism. I'll do your work for you and search for the post.

Here is a redacted post of mine from the politics section to make it compliant with the rules of this section (Mods please let me know if I've inadvertently broken a rule here):

Quote
Fascism is basically a group of people dedicated to an ideology. That's it. You could even argue it's not that tightly defined. It comes from Mussolini's political group. The Italian word fascio literally had all the associations that group or association has in English or Vereinigung has in German.

And if we are going to take Mussolini's group's point of departure as the definition for fascism, then it would mean anti-communismism. And if you had to paint it into a more specific corner, then yes it means a strong nationalistic regime which tends to support a MIXED economy. Some sectors being purely private, others purely public, others a mixture of cooperation between the public and private sector.

It's this latter economic approach of Italian fascism which gets too much attention, probably because it is what is somewhat different about the movement.

However, I really think fascism was, is, and will be an empty word.

Wonders never cease!  I actually find myself in agreement with you  Shocked Shocked Shocked!  I would only add, if you (and the mods) will permit me, that one thing that characterizes fascists of any ilk or specific political persuasion, is that they are bullies.  In fact, there are some people I've known who think that bullying of a political nature, from any part of the political spectrum, is what defines fascism, in the broadest possible sense.

Wow!!!  From "Was Christ really Jewish?" (yes!) to "Was Hitler really gay?" (who cares?), to P O L I T I C S!  Eeeeeeeeeeek!!  Maybe it's time to separate and move these posts to "Politics"?
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,171



WWW
« Reply #320 on: March 08, 2013, 02:36:21 PM »


Most of this thread is just disgusting, but this is brilliant.

Thanks.

This whole "gay" Nazi thing is unprovable

From left to right:
Girl 1: Look, the fuhrer.
Girl 2: He is so gay!
Girl 3: I know, right?
Twisty Smile: Ooo, girls!
Girl 4: What?
Logged
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #321 on: March 08, 2013, 02:46:10 PM »


Most of this thread is just disgusting, but this is brilliant.

Thanks.

This whole "gay" Nazi thing is unprovable

From left to right:
Girl 1: Look, the fuhrer.
Girl 2: He is so gay!
Girl 3: I know, right?
Twisty Smile: Ooo, girls!
Girl 4: What?

Awesome! Who knew you were such a wit!

LOL! Danke shane.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,619


Teaching on the mountain


« Reply #322 on: March 08, 2013, 02:50:40 PM »


Most of this thread is just disgusting, but this is brilliant.

Thanks.

This whole "gay" Nazi thing is unprovable

From left to right:
Girl 1: Look, the fuhrer.
Girl 2: He is so gay!
Girl 3: I know, right?
Twisty Smile: Ooo, girls!
Girl 4: What?

Awesome! Who knew you were such a wit!

LOL! Danke shane.
Have any of you watched Elder Ephrem ever?
Logged
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine
Posts: 10,015


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #323 on: March 08, 2013, 02:58:53 PM »


Most of this thread is just disgusting, but this is brilliant.

Thanks.

This whole "gay" Nazi thing is unprovable

From left to right:
Girl 1: Look, the fuhrer.
Girl 2: He is so gay!
Girl 3: I know, right?
Twisty Smile: Ooo, girls!
Girl 4: What?

Awesome! Who knew you were such a wit!

LOL! Danke shane.
Have any of you watched Elder Ephrem ever?
This Elder Ephrem? The Abbot of the Vatopaidi monastery?


He has something to say about whether or not Christ was Jewish?
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,619


Teaching on the mountain


« Reply #324 on: March 08, 2013, 03:00:27 PM »

No the one from Vatopaidi has plenty to say about Jewish conspiracies. I was talking about the one that's here in America. A propos body language.
Logged
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine
Posts: 10,015


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #325 on: March 08, 2013, 03:04:07 PM »

No the one from Vatopaidi has plenty to say about Jewish conspiracies. I was talking about the one that's here in America. A propos body language.

Oh...you mean the one that many consider to be a cult leader?  And here I thought (in spite of my own contribution to digressions) this thread was about whether or not Christ was Jewish.  Silly me  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes!
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,520


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #326 on: March 08, 2013, 04:50:07 PM »

I know now that you don't know what fascism is. Along with that guy from Whole Foods.

Perhaps..Fill me in then.. Or is this just a pot shot?



Yes, please do.  Now's your chance, orthonorm, to post something of educational substance.  

I think I've addressed this elsewhere. Probably on the private board.

Anyone with the smattering of education about the history of WWII would know the history and meaning of fascism. I'll do your work for you and search for the post.

Here is a redacted post of mine from the politics section to make it compliant with the rules of this section (Mods please let me know if I've inadvertently broken a rule here):

Quote
Fascism is basically a group of people dedicated to an ideology. That's it. You could even argue it's not that tightly defined. It comes from Mussolini's political group. The Italian word fascio literally had all the associations that group or association has in English or Vereinigung has in German.

And if we are going to take Mussolini's group's point of departure as the definition for fascism, then it would mean anti-communismism. And if you had to paint it into a more specific corner, then yes it means a strong nationalistic regime which tends to support a MIXED economy. Some sectors being purely private, others purely public, others a mixture of cooperation between the public and private sector.

It's this latter economic approach of Italian fascism which gets too much attention, probably because it is what is somewhat different about the movement.

However, I really think fascism was, is, and will be an empty word.

Wonders never cease!  I actually find myself in agreement with you  Shocked Shocked Shocked!  I would only add, if you (and the mods) will permit me, that one thing that characterizes fascists of any ilk or specific political persuasion, is that they are bullies.  In fact, there are some people I've known who think that bullying of a political nature, from any part of the political spectrum, is what defines fascism, in the broadest possible sense.

Wow!!!  From "Was Christ really Jewish?" (yes!) to "Was Hitler really gay?" (who cares?), to P O L I T I C S!  Eeeeeeeeeeek!!  Maybe it's time to separate and move these posts to "Politics"?

Wow much better than anyone could have anticipated !

If you want to use the term Fascist  merely as a slur then you can call anyone overly dedicated to something a Fascist.. Got it. It's like when Limbaugh calls Women "Femo-Nazi's" or like the term "Islamo-Fascits" or Diet Fascists.

But if you are talking about specific Fascist Regimes, particularly the Nazi's in Germany then it is possable to analyze the nature of that beast. They were not Leftists, they were funded by Industrialists, they destroyed the Unions etc..

So if you are a Neo-Fascist or Neo Nazi, you are an apologist for Hitler and harken back to the good old days. If you are a Proto-Fascist then you are steering so far to the Right that you may end up with a similar World View as the Nazi's ( blaming the Jews for the ills of the World..etc etc.)
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 04:52:59 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,171



WWW
« Reply #327 on: March 08, 2013, 11:26:19 PM »

Here is a redacted post of mine from the politics section to make it compliant with the rules of this section (Mods please let me know if I've inadvertently broken a rule here):

Quote
Fascism is basically a group of people dedicated to an ideology. That's it. You could even argue it's not that tightly defined. It comes from Mussolini's political group. The Italian word fascio literally had all the associations that group or association has in English or Vereinigung has in German.

And if we are going to take Mussolini's group's point of departure as the definition for fascism, then it would mean anti-communismism. And if you had to paint it into a more specific corner, then yes it means a strong nationalistic regime which tends to support a MIXED economy. Some sectors being purely private, others purely public, others a mixture of cooperation between the public and private sector.

It's this latter economic approach of Italian fascism which gets too much attention, probably because it is what is somewhat different about the movement.

However, I really think fascism was, is, and will be an empty word.

Wonders never cease!  I actually find myself in agreement with you  Shocked Shocked Shocked!  I would only add, if you (and the mods) will permit me, that one thing that characterizes fascists of any ilk or specific political persuasion, is that they are bullies.  In fact, there are some people I've known who think that bullying of a political nature, from any part of the political spectrum, is what defines fascism, in the broadest possible sense.

Wow!!!  From "Was Christ really Jewish?" (yes!) to "Was Hitler really gay?" (who cares?), to P O L I T I C S!  Eeeeeeeeeeek!!  Maybe it's time to separate and move these posts to "Politics"?

Wow much better than anyone could have anticipated !

If you want to use the term Fascist  merely as a slur then you can call anyone overly dedicated to something a Fascist.. Got it. It's like when Limbaugh calls Women "Femo-Nazi's" or like the term "Islamo-Fascits" or Diet Fascists.

But if you are talking about specific Fascist Regimes, particularly the Nazi's in Germany then it is possable to analyze the nature of that beast. They were not Leftists, they were funded by Industrialists, they destroyed the Unions etc..

So if you are a Neo-Fascist or Neo Nazi, you are an apologist for Hitler and harken back to the good old days. If you are a Proto-Fascist then you are steering so far to the Right that you may end up with a similar World View as the Nazi's ( blaming the Jews for the ills of the World..etc etc.)
You are essentially correct here, Marc, explaining the difference between elitist fascism and leftist socialism. As a general rule, those fascists are nationalistic supremacists, while leftists follow internationalist ideas about people being equal.

However, Isa is pointing to an interesting and exceptional sub-issue by focusing on the word "National Socialist." Apparently the Nazis really did start out as a nationalist socialist group, headed by a person named Strausser. They focused both on socialist economic ideas and also on their own nationality. However, Hitler took over with his own far-right ideas, which you correctly describe. Similarly, leftist kibbutzes were developed along a socialist model, yet they were dedicated to one nationality and excluded the country's other main nationality from joining or even working in them. However, in all these kinds of cases of which I am aware the nationalistic aspect has eventually and recognizably won out over those systems' leftwing socialist aspect, confirming that exclusionary nationalism and leftism are contradictory.

To relate this massive tangent back to the main theme, one can point out that in ideology, Jesus, although Jewish by nationality and devoted to his religious heritage, was also a universalist. We would call him an internationalist in modern terms, but he also brought everyone into His own nation of "God's people."



Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 11:47:39 PM by rakovsky » Logged
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,520


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #328 on: March 09, 2013, 12:28:37 AM »

Here is a redacted post of mine from the politics section to make it compliant with the rules of this section (Mods please let me know if I've inadvertently broken a rule here):

Quote
Fascism is basically a group of people dedicated to an ideology. That's it. You could even argue it's not that tightly defined. It comes from Mussolini's political group. The Italian word fascio literally had all the associations that group or association has in English or Vereinigung has in German.

And if we are going to take Mussolini's group's point of departure as the definition for fascism, then it would mean anti-communismism. And if you had to paint it into a more specific corner, then yes it means a strong nationalistic regime which tends to support a MIXED economy. Some sectors being purely private, others purely public, others a mixture of cooperation between the public and private sector.

It's this latter economic approach of Italian fascism which gets too much attention, probably because it is what is somewhat different about the movement.

However, I really think fascism was, is, and will be an empty word.

Wonders never cease!  I actually find myself in agreement with you  Shocked Shocked Shocked!  I would only add, if you (and the mods) will permit me, that one thing that characterizes fascists of any ilk or specific political persuasion, is that they are bullies.  In fact, there are some people I've known who think that bullying of a political nature, from any part of the political spectrum, is what defines fascism, in the broadest possible sense.

Wow!!!  From "Was Christ really Jewish?" (yes!) to "Was Hitler really gay?" (who cares?), to P O L I T I C S!  Eeeeeeeeeeek!!  Maybe it's time to separate and move these posts to "Politics"?

Wow much better than anyone could have anticipated !

If you want to use the term Fascist  merely as a slur then you can call anyone overly dedicated to something a Fascist.. Got it. It's like when Limbaugh calls Women "Femo-Nazi's" or like the term "Islamo-Fascits" or Diet Fascists.

But if you are talking about specific Fascist Regimes, particularly the Nazi's in Germany then it is possable to analyze the nature of that beast. They were not Leftists, they were funded by Industrialists, they destroyed the Unions etc..

So if you are a Neo-Fascist or Neo Nazi, you are an apologist for Hitler and harken back to the good old days. If you are a Proto-Fascist then you are steering so far to the Right that you may end up with a similar World View as the Nazi's ( blaming the Jews for the ills of the World..etc etc.)
You are essentially correct here, Marc, explaining the difference between elitist fascism and leftist socialism. As a general rule, those fascists are nationalistic supremacists, while leftists follow internationalist ideas about people being equal.

However, Isa is pointing to an interesting and exceptional sub-issue by focusing on the word "National Socialist." Apparently the Nazis really did start out as a nationalist socialist group, headed by a person named Strausser. They focused both on socialist economic ideas and also on their own nationality. However, Hitler took over with his own far-right ideas, which you correctly describe. Similarly, leftist kibbutzes were developed along a socialist model, yet they were dedicated to one nationality and excluded the country's other main nationality from joining or even working in them. However, in all these kinds of cases of which I am aware the nationalistic aspect has eventually and recognizably won out over those systems' leftwing socialist aspect, confirming that exclusionary nationalism and leftism are contradictory.

To relate this massive tangent back to the main theme, one can point out that in ideology, Jesus, although Jewish by nationality and devoted to his religious heritage, was also a universalist. We would call him an internationalist in modern terms, but he also brought everyone into His own nation of "God's people."



Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.

I think you may have overstated Strasser's role in the formation of Nazi ideology. He was on the left wing and so he was quickly expelled. He formed an opposition group to the Nazi Party. Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Strasser

Following his expulsion, he set up his own party, the Black Front, composed of radical ex-Nazis, in an attempt to split the Nazi Party. Here his lack of anti-Semitism was displayed by his willingness to associate with Jews,[2] such as an exile from Germany named Helmut Hirsch, who would later be executed for an attempted plot on Hitler. His party proved unable to counter Hitler's rise to power in 1933, and Strasser spent the years of the Third Reich in exile. The Nazi Left itself was annihilated during the Night of the Long Knives in 1934 (in which his brother was killed), leaving Hitler as undisputed party leader and able to pacify both industrialists and the military into accepting his new National Socialist regime. In addition to the "Black Front", Strasser at this time headed the Free German Movement outside Germany which sought to enlist the aid of Germans throughout the world in bringing about the downfall of Hitler and Nazism.
Exile 
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,171



WWW
« Reply #329 on: March 09, 2013, 01:01:13 AM »

You are essentially correct here, Marc, explaining the difference between elitist fascism and leftist socialism. As a general rule, those fascists are nationalistic supremacists, while leftists follow internationalist ideas about people being equal.

However, Isa is pointing to an interesting and exceptional sub-issue by focusing on the word "National Socialist." Apparently the Nazis really did start out as a nationalist socialist group, headed by a person named Strausser. They focused both on socialist economic ideas and also on their own nationality. However, Hitler took over with his own far-right ideas, which you correctly describe. Similarly, leftist kibbutzes were developed along a socialist model, yet they were dedicated to one nationality and excluded the country's other main nationality from joining or even working in them. However, in all these kinds of cases of which I am aware the nationalistic aspect has eventually and recognizably won out over those systems' leftwing socialist aspect, confirming that exclusionary nationalism and leftism are contradictory.

To relate this massive tangent back to the main theme, one can point out that in ideology, Jesus, although Jewish by nationality and devoted to his religious heritage, was also a universalist. We would call him an internationalist in modern terms, but he also brought everyone into His own nation of "God's people."



Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.

I think you may have overstated Strasser's role in the formation of Nazi ideology. He was on the left wing and so he was quickly expelled. He formed an opposition group to the Nazi Party. Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Strasser

Following his expulsion, he set up his own party, the Black Front, composed of radical ex-Nazis, in an attempt to split the Nazi Party. Here his lack of anti-Semitism was displayed by his willingness to associate with Jews,[2] such as an exile from Germany named Helmut Hirsch, who would later be executed for an attempted plot on Hitler. His party proved unable to counter Hitler's rise to power in 1933, and Strasser spent the years of the Third Reich in exile. The Nazi Left itself was annihilated during the Night of the Long Knives in 1934 (in which his brother was killed), leaving Hitler as undisputed party leader and able to pacify both industrialists and the military into accepting his new National Socialist regime. In addition to the "Black Front", Strasser at this time headed the Free German Movement outside Germany which sought to enlist the aid of Germans throughout the world in bringing about the downfall of Hitler and Nazism.
Exile  
The fact that Strasser was later exiled after starting the movement does not negate the idea that initially this movement had a major contradictory "nationalist" "socialist" element, formulated to a big degree by Strasser. Their predecessor was even called the German "workers" party.

Wouldn't you agree that there is an inherent contradiction in setting up a system that is devoted to socialism and relieving the oppression of workers on one hand, and a strong, exclusivist ethnocentric nationalism on the other? Wouldn't you say that the former is left wing but the latter is right wing?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 01:06:35 AM by rakovsky » Logged
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,520


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #330 on: March 09, 2013, 12:38:11 PM »

You are essentially correct here, Marc, explaining the difference between elitist fascism and leftist socialism. As a general rule, those fascists are nationalistic supremacists, while leftists follow internationalist ideas about people being equal.

However, Isa is pointing to an interesting and exceptional sub-issue by focusing on the word "National Socialist." Apparently the Nazis really did start out as a nationalist socialist group, headed by a person named Strausser. They focused both on socialist economic ideas and also on their own nationality. However, Hitler took over with his own far-right ideas, which you correctly describe. Similarly, leftist kibbutzes were developed along a socialist model, yet they were dedicated to one nationality and excluded the country's other main nationality from joining or even working in them. However, in all these kinds of cases of which I am aware the nationalistic aspect has eventually and recognizably won out over those systems' leftwing socialist aspect, confirming that exclusionary nationalism and leftism are contradictory.

To relate this massive tangent back to the main theme, one can point out that in ideology, Jesus, although Jewish by nationality and devoted to his religious heritage, was also a universalist. We would call him an internationalist in modern terms, but he also brought everyone into His own nation of "God's people."



Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.

I think you may have overstated Strasser's role in the formation of Nazi ideology. He was on the left wing and so he was quickly expelled. He formed an opposition group to the Nazi Party. Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Strasser

Following his expulsion, he set up his own party, the Black Front, composed of radical ex-Nazis, in an attempt to split the Nazi Party. Here his lack of anti-Semitism was displayed by his willingness to associate with Jews,[2] such as an exile from Germany named Helmut Hirsch, who would later be executed for an attempted plot on Hitler. His party proved unable to counter Hitler's rise to power in 1933, and Strasser spent the years of the Third Reich in exile. The Nazi Left itself was annihilated during the Night of the Long Knives in 1934 (in which his brother was killed), leaving Hitler as undisputed party leader and able to pacify both industrialists and the military into accepting his new National Socialist regime. In addition to the "Black Front", Strasser at this time headed the Free German Movement outside Germany which sought to enlist the aid of Germans throughout the world in bringing about the downfall of Hitler and Nazism.
Exile  
The fact that Strasser was later exiled after starting the movement does not negate the idea that initially this movement had a major contradictory "nationalist" "socialist" element, formulated to a big degree by Strasser. Their predecessor was even called the German "workers" party.

Wouldn't you agree that there is an inherent contradiction in setting up a system that is devoted to socialism and relieving the oppression of workers on one hand, and a strong, exclusivist ethnocentric nationalism on the other? Wouldn't you say that the former is left wing but the latter is right wing?

In my opinion in any reasonable analysis of the Nazi movement you have to discount Strasser's wing. In fact, their fate proves the Anti-Socialist mind set of the Nazi Party under Hitler. Anyone with a hint of Socialist idea's was quickly murdered or exiled. So the fairer analysis would be that not only did Hitler destroy the Unions and other working class organizations but also quickly moved to crush anyone who leaned Left within his own Party.. Strasser should be most remembered as being Anti-Nazi..

Strasser was murder in 1934 which is very early on. It was done during the "Night of the Long Knives".   To associate Hitler and his Nazi Party with the Left as Isa likes to do is clearly wrong. Conservatives depend on the ignorance of their audience.  

Night of the Long Knives

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives

The Night of the Long Knives (German: About this sound Nacht der langen Messer (help·info)), sometimes called Operation Hummingbird or, in Germany, the Röhm-Putsch, was a purge that took place in Nazi Germany between June 30 and July 2 1934, when the Nazi regime carried out a series of political murders. Leading figures of the left-wing Strasserist faction of the Nazi Party, along with its figurehead, Gregor Strasser, were murdered, as were prominent conservative anti-Nazis (such as former Chancellor Kurt von Schleicher and Gustav Ritter von Kahr, who had suppressed Hitler's Beer Hall Putsch in 1923). Many of those killed were leaders of the Sturmabteilung (SA), the paramilitary brownshirts.

At least 85 people died during the purge, although the final death toll may have been in the hundreds,[c] and more than a thousand perceived opponents were arrested.

« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 12:43:06 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Kerdy
Moderated
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #331 on: March 09, 2013, 07:13:50 PM »

Yes.  Jesus was a Jew.
Logged
Pericles
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. Archdiocese of Thyateira & Great Britain.
Posts: 178



WWW
« Reply #332 on: March 14, 2013, 09:14:16 AM »

Yes.  Jesus was a Jew.
No, I'm afraid not! Christ was certainly not a Jew.

Jesus was a Galilean on his mothers side and possibly descended from the tribe of Levi, therefore he was an Israelite and not a Judaean, or Jew. Jesus inherited the messianic promise via his foster father Joseph who was of the tribe of Judah and as we know full well didn't have any genetic input. The Jews were aware of this and accused him of being a Samaritan, by which they meant an Israelite an accusation which he didn't deny. By religion Christ was a Christian, of course.

Jesus was a Galilean and an Israelite but not a Judaean, or Jew.
Logged

Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit.
Romaios
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Romanian
Posts: 2,933



« Reply #333 on: March 14, 2013, 09:34:54 AM »

Yes.  Jesus was a Jew.
No, I'm afraid not! Christ was certainly not a Jew.

Jesus was a Galilean on his mothers side and possibly descended from the tribe of Levi, therefore he was an Israelite and not a Judaean, or Jew. Jesus inherited the messianic promise via his foster father Joseph who was of the tribe of Judah and as we know full well didn't have any genetic input. The Jews were aware of this and accused him of being a Samaritan, by which they meant an Israelite an accusation which he didn't deny. By religion Christ was a Christian, of course.

Jesus was a Galilean and an Israelite but not a Judaean, or Jew.

"Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed." (Rev. 5, 5)

If he was a Samaritan, why did he act as a Jew with the Samaritan woman at the well? Why did he tell her that "You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews" (and not "from Judea", as you would have us believe)? Who is "we" in that context? Christians by any chance? 

As for his Mother's relatives, they were not from Galilee: "Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth." (Lk. 1, 39-40)
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 09:46:27 AM by Romaios » Logged
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,710


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #334 on: March 14, 2013, 09:38:56 AM »

Yes.  Jesus was a Jew.

Dingdingding!

Thread over. Everybody go home. Wink
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #335 on: March 14, 2013, 10:02:07 AM »

Yes.  Jesus was a Jew.
No, I'm afraid not! Christ was certainly not a Jew.

Jesus was a Galilean on his mothers side and possibly descended from the tribe of Levi, therefore he was an Israelite and not a Judaean, or Jew. Jesus inherited the messianic promise via his foster father Joseph who was of the tribe of Judah and as we know full well didn't have any genetic input. The Jews were aware of this and accused him of being a Samaritan, by which they meant an Israelite an accusation which he didn't deny. By religion Christ was a Christian, of course.

Jesus was a Galilean and an Israelite but not a Judaean, or Jew.

Can't you realise no one treats seriously your political fiction? Deal with it and stop posting it over and over again.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine
Posts: 10,015


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #336 on: March 14, 2013, 10:12:28 AM »

Yes.  Jesus was a Jew.
No, I'm afraid not! Christ was certainly not a Jew.

Jesus was a Galilean on his mothers side and possibly descended from the tribe of Levi, therefore he was an Israelite and not a Judaean, or Jew. Jesus inherited the messianic promise via his foster father Joseph who was of the tribe of Judah and as we know full well didn't have any genetic input. The Jews were aware of this and accused him of being a Samaritan, by which they meant an Israelite an accusation which he didn't deny. By religion Christ was a Christian, of course.

Jesus was a Galilean and an Israelite but not a Judaean, or Jew.

Can't you realise no one treats seriously your political fiction? Deal with it and stop posting it over and over again.

^ This!!!!
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,520


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #337 on: March 14, 2013, 10:25:52 AM »

Yes.  Jesus was a Jew.
No, I'm afraid not! Christ was certainly not a Jew.

Jesus was a Galilean on his mothers side and possibly descended from the tribe of Levi, therefore he was an Israelite and not a Judaean, or Jew. Jesus inherited the messianic promise via his foster father Joseph who was of the tribe of Judah and as we know full well didn't have any genetic input. The Jews were aware of this and accused him of being a Samaritan, by which they meant an Israelite an accusation which he didn't deny. By religion Christ was a Christian, of course.

Jesus was a Galilean and an Israelite but not a Judaean, or Jew.

He never taught anything outside of Judaism. The coming of the Messiah is well within the Jewish Faith. The disagreement was over his Spiritual Identity as the Messiah, not that there is such a doctrine.

Btw... I am pretty sure he was born in Bethlehem. He was brought to the Temple at the appointed time and ritually circumscribed into the Jewish Covenant and his Mother was a Jew...  

I wonder if Jesus had a Bar-Mitzvah ?







Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,520


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #338 on: March 14, 2013, 10:30:28 AM »

Hebrews 7:14

 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda;
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Pericles
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. Archdiocese of Thyateira & Great Britain.
Posts: 178



WWW
« Reply #339 on: March 14, 2013, 11:25:05 AM »

Can't you realise no one treats seriously your political fiction? Deal with it and stop posting it over and over again.
Well as long as I keep asserting the truth and rebutting your illusions, I will.
Logged

Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit.
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,520


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #340 on: March 14, 2013, 02:45:05 PM »

Can't you realise no one treats seriously your political fiction? Deal with it and stop posting it over and over again.
Well as long as I keep asserting the truth and rebutting your illusions, I will.

Hebrews 7:14

 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda;
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
sheenj
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Indian/Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Posts: 1,400


St. Gregorios of Parumala, pray for us...


« Reply #341 on: March 14, 2013, 02:47:47 PM »

Well as long as I keep asserting the truth and rebutting your illusions, I will.

Translation:

LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!
Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,524



« Reply #342 on: March 14, 2013, 03:08:44 PM »

Forgiveness Sunday is in three days. Let's take a recess until after Bright Week. In case I forget, please PM me if you really want this topic reopened. Thanks, Carl
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,524



« Reply #343 on: May 08, 2013, 11:22:44 AM »

This topic is unlocked as promised. Carl Kraeff
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,171



WWW
« Reply #344 on: May 09, 2013, 03:35:59 AM »

Speaking of connections between Christianity and Judaism, in the Old Testament there were big curtains and gates in the front of the ancient Temple's Holy of Holies. In Orthodoxy, the gates and curtains of the iconastasis are opened several times during the liturgy. Was there an equivalent in ancient Judaism? Namely, were there times in synagogue or ancient Temple services when their gates and curtains were also opened, as in when the priest entered it for the Day of Atonement?
Logged
sheenj
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Indian/Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church
Posts: 1,400


St. Gregorios of Parumala, pray for us...


« Reply #345 on: May 09, 2013, 11:06:34 AM »

Speaking of connections between Christianity and Judaism, in the Old Testament there were big curtains and gates in the front of the ancient Temple's Holy of Holies. In Orthodoxy, the gates and curtains of the iconastasis are opened several times during the liturgy. Was there an equivalent in ancient Judaism? Namely, were there times in synagogue or ancient Temple services when their gates and curtains were also opened, as in when the priest entered it for the Day of Atonement?

IIRC, the Curtain remained closed until it was rent in two during the Crucifixion.
Logged
rakovsky
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,171



WWW
« Reply #346 on: May 09, 2013, 11:55:04 AM »

Speaking of connections between Christianity and Judaism, in the Old Testament there were big curtains and gates in the front of the ancient Temple's Holy of Holies. In Orthodoxy, the gates and curtains of the iconastasis are opened several times during the liturgy. Was there an equivalent in ancient Judaism? Namely, were there times in synagogue or ancient Temple services when their gates and curtains were also opened, as in when the priest entered it for the Day of Atonement?

IIRC, the Curtain remained closed until it was rent in two during the Crucifixion.
Joseph said it took alot of oxen to open the curtain, so presumably it was opened at some point.
Logged
Tags: Nazarene 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.158 seconds with 60 queries.