Topic: Was Christ really Jewish?

[Shanghaiski]

Kilroy was here - MK

There are some things Windex cannot cure.

[Marc1152]

Summery:

His Mother was Jewish. She served in the Temple. Non Jews cant serve in the Temple

Many details in his preaching are references to Jewish religious customs but you need to be expert  about how Judaism was practiced to see them. There are some good books about it.

He was ritually circumsized which is the definitive evidence that he was Jewish

His preaching is clearly in line with the Hillel School, which at the time was a philosophical tendency within Pharisee ism. It's based on the Golden Rule. Jesus taught and expanded upon this well known form of Judaism.

He read in the Synagogue. This is reserved for adult Jewish Males

He was Jewish. He taught well within the confines of the Judaism of his times albeit a more minor thread.

Fini 

[rakovsky]

His preaching is clearly in line with the Hillel School, which at the time was a philosophical tendency within Pharisee ism. It's based on the Golden Rule. Jesus taught and expanded upon this well known form of Judaism.

Marc,

Obviously Jesus was Jewish. However, I am very doubtful that Jesus was simply within the "Hillel school" of pharisee-ism. Nor would being within a known school of Judaism be a requirement to be Jewish in a religious sense, as rabbinic law considers even those it labels heretics/apostates to be Jewish.

First, Jesus pointed out that they generally rejected John the Baptist. While pharisee-ism could admittedly be broad enough to include a wide range of groups, doubt that the Christians could be simply categorized as followers of Hillel. In this case, the importance of Baptism as a once-for-all cleansing was significantly different than what Hillel or his main followers taught- and wouldn't some of those followers still be around in Jesus' time?

Secondly, the New Testament mentions a time when St James acted in a superior way to St Peter and instructed him to avoid eating with gentiles. This teaching was more in line with the teaching of Shammai than Hillel. Granted, this was not Jesus' instruction, and the Church overcame it eventually. But it shows enough difference that Jesus as a rabbi with students like St James cannot be simply classed as followers of Hillel.

Third, there are other notable differences- Jesus emphasized prayer and Christians sometimes heal people, but these are much less central to Hillel. And would Hillel have gone so far as to tell people to carry things on the Sabbath and forgive sins?

Finally, I see in labeling Jesus as a "student of Hillel" something that downplays his independence in philosophy, subordinating his doctrines to the pharisees', while the Bible distinguishes Him from them. After all, is there someplace in Orthodoxy that describes His teachings as a repetition or explanation of Hillel's?

Regards.

[rakovsky]

Metzitzah b'peh was also practised to prevent the infection.

I read that this is a more recent, rabbinic practice, actually has a danger of causing infection, and is unusual in the rabbinic community.

[Marc1152]

His preaching is clearly in line with the Hillel School, which at the time was a philosophical tendency within Pharisee ism. It's based on the Golden Rule. Jesus taught and expanded upon this well known form of Judaism.

Marc,

Obviously Jesus was Jewish. However, I am very doubtful that Jesus was simply within the "Hillel school" of pharisee-ism. Nor would being within a known school of Judaism be a requirement to be Jewish in a religious sense, as rabbinic law considers even those it labels heretics/apostates to be Jewish.

First, Jesus pointed out that they generally rejected John the Baptist. While pharisee-ism could admittedly be broad enough to include a wide range of groups, doubt that the Christians could be simply categorized as followers of Hillel. In this case, the importance of Baptism as a once-for-all cleansing was significantly different than what Hillel or his main followers taught- and wouldn't some of those followers still be around in Jesus' time?

Secondly, the New Testament mentions a time when St James acted in a superior way to St Peter and instructed him to avoid eating with gentiles. This teaching was more in line with the teaching of Shammai than Hillel. Granted, this was not Jesus' instruction, and the Church overcame it eventually. But it shows enough difference that Jesus as a rabbi with students like St James cannot be simply classed as followers of Hillel.

Third, there are other notable differences- Jesus emphasized prayer and Christians sometimes heal people, but these are much less central to Hillel. And would Hillel have gone so far as to tell people to carry things on the Sabbath and forgive sins?

Finally, I see in labeling Jesus as a "student of Hillel" something that downplays his independence in philosophy, subordinating his doctrines to the pharisees', while the Bible distinguishes Him from them. After all, is there someplace in Orthodoxy that describes His teachings as a repetition or explanation of Hillel's?

Regards.

Jesus taught a version of the Golden Rule philosophy also articulated by Rabbi Hillel. He also echoed concerns of the Hillel faction such as healing on the Sabbath.

I never said Jesus was "A student of Hillel" now did I? Hillel died in 10 CE long before the life of Jesus. I am also not surprised that the far more dominant faction of Shammi also had some influence on people such as St. James  .

The assertion was that Jesus may have been "culturally Jewish" but he did not practice the Jewish Religion which is sheer nonsense. I have pointed out how that could not be true including how similar the teachings of Jesus are to the teachings of Hillel, which is a true.  

[Romaios]

Orthodoxy is Hellenism - Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew

"Salvation is from the Jews." - Jesus Christ (John 4:22)

[Marc1152]

Just to be a bit clearer. The teachings of Jesus are easily recognizeable as being well within the Jewish Tradition and strongly resemble the teachings of Rabbi Hillel.

It is interesting to note that Rabbi Shammai is long forgotten but Rabbi Hillel is still revered.

[JamesR]

The golden rule came from Confucias; not the Jews...

[Romaios]

The golden rule came from Confucius; not the Jews...

There have been cases in the history of science where people working independently discovered/invented the same thing.

The "golden rule" is so general and axiomatic, that it didn't need to be supernaturally revealed or invented. People of any age could have reached the same conclusion drawing on their own experience and interaction with other humans. As in many other instances, Our Lord merely confirms what should have been common/already revealed knowledge. This is why he asks Nicodemus: "You are a teacher of Israel and don't know these things?" or often sends people back to the Ten Commandments, the Law of Moses, common sense.   

[biro]

The golden rule came from Confucias; not the Jews...

"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn." -- Rabbi Hillel

[Romaios]

The golden rule came from Confucias; not the Jews...

"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn." -- Rabbi Hillel

Both Our Lord and Hillel were echoing Leviticus 19:18 ('thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord'), Deuteronomy 22 and many other such places in the Torah.

[Marc1152]

The golden rule came from Confucias; not the Jews...

No doubt but it was taught by Hillel and then Jesus.

[Charles Martel]

Jesus was a Judean.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A2HQNeO104&list=UUqqN2e5-zgkQhHOs-ailqBQ

[rakovsky]

The golden rule came from Confucias; not the Jews...

No doubt but it was taught by Hillel and then Jesus.

One difference is that Hillel's idea was that you should NOT do to others what you DON'T want them to do to you - a prohibition.

Jesus, however, made an active instruction, that you should do to others as you wish them to do to you.

This may make an interesting contrast between the OT Laws, which were typically proscriptive (don't work on the Sabbath), and New Testament ones, which were fulfillments and went farther (do good work on the Sabbath).

This would be another example showing how Jesus was significantly different from being a student of Rabbi Hillel.

[Shanghaiski]

The golden rule came from Confucias; not the Jews...

"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn." -- Rabbi Hillel

Otherwise known in China as Hillel-tzu.

[Marc1152]

The golden rule came from Confucias; not the Jews...

No doubt but it was taught by Hillel and then Jesus.

One difference is that Hillel's idea was that you should NOT do to others what you DON'T want them to do to you - a prohibition.

Jesus, however, made an active instruction, that you should do to others as you wish them to do to you.

This may make an interesting contrast between the OT Laws, which were typically proscriptive (don't work on the Sabbath), and New Testament ones, which were fulfillments and went farther (do good work on the Sabbath).

This would be another example showing how Jesus was significantly different from being a student of Rabbi Hillel.

Straw man.. I never said Jesus was a student of Hillel. This is the second time I have pointed this out to you. Why must you continually
miss represent me?

The assertion was that Jesus did not practice the Jewish religion.

My reply was that the teachings of Jesus are very similar to the teachings of Rabbi Hillel. Both taught a "Golden Rule" philosophy.

Let me know if this is still confusing.

[biro]

There was a song, I think by the Exploited, that went, "Was Jesus Catholic or Protestant, was Jesus Catholic or Protestant?! He's a Jew!"

Thread's over, we can all go home now.

[rakovsky]

There was a song, I think by the Exploited, that went, "Was Jesus Catholic or Protestant, was Jesus Catholic or Protestant?!"

He is catholic.

[Pericles]

"Salvation is from the Jews." - Jesus Christ (John 4:22)

You (Jews) belong to your father, the devil! Jesus Christ john 8:44

[Justin Kissel]

"Salvation is from the Jews." - Jesus Christ (John 4:22)

You (Jews) belong to your father, the devil! Jesus Christ john 8:44

This is where we could use a fancy-pants word like eisegesis...

[Theophilos78]

"Salvation is from the Jews." - Jesus Christ (John 4:22)

You (Jews) belong to your father, the devil! Jesus Christ john 8:44

If we put these two statements together and believe in your claim that Jesus identified all Jews as seed of Satan, we can but conclude that "Salvation is from Satan". 

[Pericles]

...we can but conclude that "Salvation is from Satan". 

Thats the logical concusion you appear to be promoting and I'm arguing against.

[Romaios]

"Salvation is from the Jews." - Jesus Christ (John 4:22)

You (Jews) belong to your father, the devil! Jesus Christ john 8:44

You sure are fond of that verse. What Our Lord is arguing there is that those Jews were "sons of the devil", because they were fond of lies and Satan is "a liar and the father of lies". They were scandalized by his claims, but claimed themselves to be "sons of God", "children of Abraham", "free" and so on.

Beware of falling under its condemnation!

 

[Marc1152]

...we can but conclude that "Salvation is from Satan". 

Thats the logical concusion you appear to be promoting and I'm arguing against.

Famous Jews of that time

Mary Mother of God
St. Peter
St. Paul
St. James
St. John
Others

[mike]

...we can but conclude that "Salvation is from Satan". 

Thats the logical concusion you appear to be promoting and I'm arguing against.

Famous Jews of that time

Mary Mother of God
St. Peter
St. Paul
St. James
St. John
Others

You forgot one:

A Jew and young vicar were going by train. They were sitting vis-a-vis each other. Suddenly the Jew asked:
- When a vicar is promoted, who does he become?
- I may become the rector - the vicar responded.
- And then? - the Jew asks
- Then I may become a canon.
- And later?
- If I have outstanding service, I can become a bishop.
- What is further?
- By the will of the Holy Father I could become a cardinal.
- You mean the Pope, don't you? He governs the Church, does he?
- Yes, he governs everything.
 - That would be a promotion for a priest! What about going higher?
Vicar shakes his head:
- Going higher is impossible. I can not be the Lord!
- Why not? One of ours succeeded.

[J Michael]

...we can but conclude that "Salvation is from Satan". 

Thats the logical concusion you appear to be promoting and I'm arguing against.

Famous Jews of that time

Mary Mother of God
St. Peter
St. Paul
St. James
St. John
Others

You forgot one:

A Jew and young vicar were going by train. They were sitting vis-a-vis each other. Suddenly the Jew asked:
- When a vicar is promoted, who does he become?
- I may become the rector - the vicar responded.
- And then? - the Jew asks
- Then I may become a canon.
- And later?
- If I have outstanding service, I can become a bishop.
- What is further?
- By the will of the Holy Father I could become a cardinal.
- You mean the Pope, don't you? He governs the Church, does he?
- Yes, he governs everything.
 - That would be a promotion for a priest! What about going higher?
Vicar shakes his head:
- Going higher is impossible. I can not be the Lord!
- Why not? One of ours succeeded.

That's always good for a big smile and a chuckle  .

[Theophilos78]

...we can but conclude that "Salvation is from Satan". 

Thats the logical concusion you appear to be promoting and I'm arguing against.

Now resorting to distortion... Nothing surprising though. You cannot defend your non-Christian views without twisting the facts. 

[Charles Martel]

"Salvation is from the Jews." - Jesus Christ (John 4:22)

You (Jews) belong to your father, the devil! Jesus Christ john 8:44

If we put these two statements together and believe in your claim that Jesus identified all Jews as seed of Satan, we can but conclude that "Salvation is from Satan". 

I think he was referring to these Jews......"Behold, I will bring of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie. Behold, I will make them to come and adore before thy feet. And they shall know that I have loved thee. "-Revelation 3:9

[rakovsky]

- That would be a promotion for a priest! What about going higher?
Vicar shakes his head:
- Going higher is impossible. I can not be the Lord!
- Why not? One of ours succeeded.

Well, if we are going to talk that way, we might as well say that a Christian (believer in Christ) and a priest became the Lord.

In any case, this talk puts things on its head. In Christian thinking it is the Lord who became one of us (man), rather than the other way around.

Peace.

[Nadege]

Yes, he was, and he was an exemplary Jew.

[rakovsky]

Yes, he was, and he was the most exemplary Jew.

Fixed it.

[Nicene]

Its kind hard to ignore him being circumsised by his parents on the eighth day, being from the line of David...

[Pericles]

Beware of falling under its condemnation!

By not following your example, certainly!

[Romaios]

Beware of falling under its condemnation!

By not following your example, certainly!

By not becoming a phyletist like those Jews Our Lord called "sons of the devil".

[Marc1152]

Yes, he was, and he was the most exemplary person.

Fixed it

Fixed it some more

[Charles Martel]

Yes, he was, and he was an exemplary Jew.

Of his time maybe.

Jews today totally reject Christ, therfore the "exemplary" Jew today would have nothing to do with Jesus.

Except blaspheme him.

[biro]

Now, now.

I know we all cherish our pet assumptions, but there probably are quite a few Jews today who don't go around saying blasphemy about Christ.

For that matter, Buddhist and Hindus don't accept Christ, at least not the way Christians do, but do you ever see anybody go around ranting about how the Buddhist and the Hindus control everything? And there are billions of them, but only a few million Jews.

I mean, India and China put together, just them, equal 1/3 of the world's population.

I'm just saying. 

[J Michael]

Now, now.

I know we all cherish our pet assumptions, but there probably are quite a few Jews today who don't go around saying blasphemy about Christ.

For that matter, Buddhist and Hindus don't accept Christ, at least not the way Christians do, but do you ever see anybody go around ranting about how the Buddhist and the Hindus control everything? And there are billions of them, but only a few million Jews.

I mean, India and China put together, just them, equal 1/3 of the world's population.

I'm just saying.  

Uh oh...(said the Jew who's a Christian who doesn't control a damn thing) 

[Charles Martel]

Now, now.

I know we all cherish our pet assumptions, but there probably are quite a few Jews today who don't go around saying blasphemy about Christ.

For that matter, Buddhist and Hindus don't accept Christ, at least not the way Christians do, but do you ever see anybody go around ranting about how the Buddhist and the Hindus control everything? And there are billions of them, but only a few million Jews.

I mean, India and China put together, just them, equal 1/3 of the world's population.

I'm just saying. 

Buddhists and Hindus and even Moslems don't write nasty things to say about Christ and the BVM in their sacred texts like the Jewish Talmud and other Rabbinical commentaries.Also the other world's main religions aren't constantly pestering us about how we word our liturgies or conduct our services. As a matter of fact, the other main religions have nothing but good things to say about Christ, Islam even considers him a prophet and the BVM is one of the most honored women amongst all Moslems.

Judaism in essence despises Jesus as a fake and a fraud.

Jews ( and no not every single one, especially the converts) are the Church's oldest and most dangerous nemises.

To put it any other way would be a lie.

It's really a shame that even "orthodox" Christians don't get this, although I think many do but are too intimdated to admit it.

God hates a coward.

[biro]

What is it with this weird streak of anti-Judaism on the board? I'm not saying it's everybody, but heck, some weird things have been said of late, and it's getting boring and annoying. Like the time I sat on a beach chair that had a bee's nest under it. But that wasn't boring.

It's one thing to wish the Jews would convert, it's another to subscribe to long-dead theories about supercharged nationalistic nonsense. I mean, if you've ever actually read about Jewish history, all these crackpot theories wane and die when exposed to the light.

To say I'm disappointed would be a considerable understatement. Troubled about it, as well.  

[Charles Martel]

Yet you are silent about what Judaism says in it's Talmud blaspheming Christ and the BVM.

I think maybe you better go back and read more "Jewish history".

Yes I am "anti-Judaism" like I am anti-Islam.

Judaism rejects Christ like Islam denies Christ's divinity, there both anti-Christ.

I'm sorry if this is too much for you to handle.

[Cyrillic]

Yet you are silent about what Judaism says in it's Talmud blaspheming Christ and the BVM.

I've heard this accusation before but can you actually quote where the Talmud does all those horrible thing?

[Romaios]

Jesus in the Talmud

Jesus (Yeshu[a]) was a common name among Jews back in the day of the Talmud, so it's not clear if Our Lord is meant in all passages where this name appears.

Jesus "ben Pandira/Panthera" is supposedly a corruption of Gk. parthenos = "virgin".

[biro]

Yet you are silent about what Judaism says in it's Talmud blaspheming Christ and the BVM.

I've heard this accusation before but can you actually quote where the Talmud does all those horrible thing?

He can't. He'll try to, but I'll head him off at the pass.

He's probably relying on 'Brother Nathanael's' quoted fabrications, which hark back to the well-known fraud, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" - which claim that Jews say you should kill Christian babies, and other such crap. Since I've actually read the Talmud, and it doesn't say what Nathanael claims it says, he and everyone who believes him on that is a fraud.  

As I said before, I'm worried about the type of converts and supporters who seem to be attracted to Orthodoxy because of the fetishistic aspects they (falsely) attach to it - the chance to 'adopt yourself' into Eastern European culture, which gives them what they believe to be the right to pretend to be 'ancient warriors.' There's a big difference between admiring a culture and using it to think it shoehorns you back into the old tough white guy days. They can't deal with women voting and going to college and not being stuck in the kitchen. They can't deal with the fact that there is now plenty of competition for those six-figure jobs at General Motors. They can't deal with a lot of things. So they drift into a fantasy world. Orthodoxy isn't really a fantasy, nor is a majority anti-Jewish, but there's an element that crops up sometimes, and we do no good by pretending it's not a problem. Some people want to make things into what they don't have to be. Heck, I don't want to be anti-anybody.

Having grown up in a city that is over 25% Jewish, learned Hebrew in nursery school, and become a compulsory visitor of the library, I can't stand this kind of fear-mongering that arises now and then, where it's conspiracy this and conspiracy that, while most of the Jewish folks I knew turned out to be things like librarians, teachers, locksmiths... pretty darn normal. Gasp! Shock! And they never rejected Christ - they said rather nice things about Him.

I can't take it anymore. This anti-Semitic b.s. is driving me nuts. If that makes some people not like me, so be it. It's like having a wart on your foot. It won't kill you, but how much does anybody really like warts?

[Marc1152]

Now, now.

I know we all cherish our pet assumptions, but there probably are quite a few Jews today who don't go around saying blasphemy about Christ.

For that matter, Buddhist and Hindus don't accept Christ, at least not the way Christians do, but do you ever see anybody go around ranting about how the Buddhist and the Hindus control everything? And there are billions of them, but only a few million Jews.

I mean, India and China put together, just them, equal 1/3 of the world's population.

I'm just saying. 

Buddhists and Hindus and even Moslems don't write nasty things to say about Christ and the BVM in their sacred texts like the Jewish Talmud and other Rabbinical commentaries.Also the other world's main religions aren't constantly pestering us about how we word our liturgies or conduct our services. As a matter of fact, the other main religions have nothing but good things to say about Christ, Islam even considers him a prophet and the BVM is one of the most honored women amongst all Moslems.

Judaism in essence despises Jesus as a fake and a fraud.

Jews ( and no not every single one, especially the converts) are the Church's oldest and most dangerous nemises.

To put it any other way would be a lie.

It's really a shame that even "orthodox" Christians don't get this, although I think many do but are too intimdated to admit it.

God hates a coward.

If you go to a service in a Synagogue you wont hear a word spoken about Jesus or Christians. But if you go to one of our liturgies every tenth word is Jew.

Find a new hobby Charles.