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Author Topic: Was Christ really Jewish?  (Read 7128 times) Average Rating: 0
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Kerdy
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« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2013, 08:03:17 AM »

Since when did "Judeo" imply a rejection of Christ?
Since the crowd demanded that Herod put Christ to death.

Well, that didn't work.  Care to try a different approach?
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« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2013, 08:46:07 AM »

Well, that didn't work. 
If you take your phylacteries and talit off you might be able to read it better.
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« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2013, 09:08:01 AM »

According to this flawed reasoning, the crowd that demanded Christ's death had not been Jewish either. Since when? Since the crowd worshipped the golden calf in the wilderness.  laugh
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« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2013, 09:14:18 AM »

According to this flawed reasoning, the crowd that demanded Christ's death had not been Jewish either. Since when? Since the crowd worshipped the golden calf in the wilderness.  laugh
Yes that really is flawed reasoning Roll Eyes
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« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2013, 09:26:59 AM »

According to this flawed reasoning, the crowd that demanded Christ's death had not been Jewish either. Since when? Since the crowd worshipped the golden calf in the wilderness.  laugh
Yes that really is flawed reasoning Roll Eyes

The word "this" refers to your reasoning... my example functions to indicate the fallacy of your statement.  Grin
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« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2013, 09:35:40 AM »

The word "this" refers to your reasoning...
Despite your intention, which I did understand thank you, in truth you implicated your own reasoning to be flawed.

This is just too easy Roll Eyes
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« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2013, 09:37:49 AM »

The word "this" refers to your reasoning...
Despite your intention, which I did understand thank you, in truth you implicated your own reasoning to be flawed.

This is just too easy Roll Eyes

Another example of flawed reasoning. You are addicted to such fallacies. Do not worry, I forgive you. I hope Elohim Yeshua also forgive you!  Wink
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« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2013, 09:45:36 AM »

Another example of flawed reasoning.
No thanks you've provided quite enough already thanks  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2013, 10:46:13 AM »

...you are apparently not Orthodox, and I am thinking doubtfully Christian...May God grant you wisdom.
<<< Indeed! well may God grant you understanding. Cheesy

God is good, and has tolerated me so far as I struggle to extend that tolerance to others. But your ideas really are tendentious and strike me as representative of a schismatic mindset at best; Nearly all of your posts seem to come around to the same issue: your desire to divorce Christianity from its undeniable Jewish matrix by whatever means. Going even so far as to suggest that Christ in His human nature was not ethnically and practically a Jew really is beyond the pale.

This is perhaps forgiveable for someone outside the fold, but as an Orthodox, I would expect that you would know better. The extent of your fixation suggests this is probably better treated through confession, as these are ideas that have considerable implications for our Faith.
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« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2013, 10:51:05 AM »

God is good, and has tolerated me so far as I struggle to extend that tolerance to others. But your ideas really are tendentious and strike me as representative of a schismatic mindset at best; Nearly all of your posts seem to come around to the same issue: your desire to divorce Christianity from its undeniable Jewish matrix by whatever means. Going even so far as to suggest that Christ in His human nature was not ethnically and practically a Jew really is beyond the pale.

This is perhaps forgiveable for someone outside the fold, but as an Orthodox, I would expect that you would know better. The extent of your fixation suggests this is probably better treated through confession, as these are ideas that have considerable implications for our Faith.

Unless I have completely misread and misunderstood what is being said, it's a heresy, pure and simple. You cannot be an Orthodox Christian, Greek or otherwise, and hold such opinions.
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« Reply #55 on: February 11, 2013, 11:26:15 AM »

God is good, and has tolerated me so far as I struggle to extend that tolerance to others.
Thats quite evident and if you deliberately misrepresent peoples opinions it's going to be more of a struggle, if not impossible. Pretending to being even-handed when your quite obviously doing the opposite is dispicable. Kindly take your own advice.
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« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2013, 11:27:03 AM »

Unless I have completely misread and misunderstood what is being said...
I think you have clearly misunderstood.
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« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2013, 11:38:11 AM »

I think you have clearly misunderstood.

Then please give more detail and further clarification of the terms you are using and the argument you're making.
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« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2013, 11:41:41 AM »

Then please give more detail and further clarification of the terms you are using and the argument you're making.
I think you just need to read what I've already written but drop the prejudice.
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« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2013, 12:13:54 PM »

I think you just need to read what I've already written but drop the prejudice.

And what prejudice would that be besides faithfulness to the words of Scripture and the teachings of the Church?

You are absolutely right in asserting that Christianity was from the beginning expressed through Greek thought and language, but by suggesting Christ was not Jewish, and that Christianity is an entirely Hellenic rather than Judaic construct, you are severing the New Testament from the Old in a way that the Fathers of the Church condemned in the strongest possible terms. Just because the majority of the Jews rejected Christ and that the Judaism of these people evolved what we now call Talmudic or Rabbinical Judaism does not make Christ or Christianity any less Jewish. Indeed, the Church Fathers argued against the disbelieving Jews precisely by pointing to the Jewishness of the Christian religion. St. Cyril of Jerusalem, for example, says "Ἑβραῖοι ἔγραψαν ἐκεῖνα. καὶ οἱ ἀπόστολοι πάντες Ἑβραῖοι. διὰ τί οὖν τοῖς Ἰουδαίοις ἀπιστεῖτε; Ματθαῖος ὁ γράψας τὸ εὐαγγέλιον ἑβραίδι γλώσσῃ τοῦτο ἔγραψε, καὶ Παῦλος ὁ κῆρυξ Ἑβραῖος ἐξ Ἑβραίων, καὶ οἱ δώδεκα ἀπόστολοι ἐξ Ἑβραίων. εἶτα δεκαπέντε ἱεροσολυμῖται ἐπίσκοποι ἐξ Ἑβραίων κατὰ διαδοχὴν κατέστησαν. τίνι τοίνυν τῷ λόγῳ ἀποδέχεσθε μὲν τὰ οἰκεῖα, τὰ δὲ ἡμέτερα ἀποδοκιμάζετε, καὶ ταῦτα ὑπὸ τῶν παρ' ὑμῖν Ἑβραίων γεγραμμένα;"* (Catechetical Lectures 14:15)

If you are suggesting something other than this, please clarify, but based purely on the words you have written in this thread so far, the ideas you have expressed are manifestly heretical and therefore incompatible with Orthodoxy.



*"They were Hebrews who wrote that history; so were all the Apostles Hebrews: why then do you disbelieve the Jews? Matthew who wrote the Gospel wrote it in the Hebrew tongue; and Paul the preacher was a Hebrew of the Hebrews; and the twelve Apostles were all of Hebrew race: then fifteen bishops of Jerusalem were appointed in succession from among the Hebrews. What then is your reason for allowing your own accounts, and rejecting ours, though these are written by Hebrews from among yourselves?"
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« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2013, 12:19:02 PM »

"Feeding the troll is no work of charity" said a Jew.  Grin
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« Reply #61 on: February 11, 2013, 12:37:44 PM »

And what prejudice would that be
The prejudice you have just displayed.
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« Reply #62 on: February 11, 2013, 12:39:29 PM »

I think it's time to wrap my head in duct tape now...
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« Reply #63 on: February 11, 2013, 12:47:47 PM »

The prejudice you have just displayed.

My only prejudice is against a semi-Marcionite separation of the Old Testament from the New. Again, if I have misunderstood you, please clarify what you mean when you attempt to demonstrate that Christ was not a Jew. My problem is not with the idea that Christanity is Hellenistic, but with the idea that it is therefore not also Judaic.
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« Reply #64 on: February 11, 2013, 12:50:11 PM »

Nonsense said the bigot, they belonged to a long lost Russian tribe.


Interesting.  Have you heard any more of this particular idea?  Some years ago, read something along the lines that the last words from the Cross were not Hebrew but were *really* some form of a Slavic language.
"British Israelite" type stuff. Galilee is called that because they are Gaelic. So Jesus was really British. One of the main places in Ukraine was Galicia, named after Gals in western Ukraine, and that must be Gaelic. So again more connections between Jesus, Britain and Ukraine.

 Roll Eyes

Ahhh....so, Christ is Ukrainian.  Well...that explains a lot!   angel

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« Reply #65 on: February 11, 2013, 12:53:15 PM »


When in doubt.....always check Wikipedia. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogy_of_Jesus

The genealogy of Jesus is described in two passages of the Gospels: Luke 3:23–38[1] and Matthew 1:1–17.[2] Matthew's genealogy commences with Abraham and then from King David's son Solomon follows the legal line of the kings through Jeconiah, the king whose descendants were cursed, to Joseph, legal father of Jesus. Luke gives a different genealogy going back to Adam, through a minor son of David, Nathan and apparently again to Joseph.

Both gospels state that Jesus was begotten not by Joseph, but by God, being "born", or entering Mary through a virgin birth. These lists are identical between Abraham and David, but they differ radically from that point onward.

There are various theories that seek to explain the different lineages described in Luke and Matthew. Among Christian scholars, its widely believed that Matthew's account follows the lineage of Joseph, while Luke's account follows the lineage of Mary. Both lineages show the direct connection between Jesus and David, which is important because God had told David that a blood descendant would sit on the eternal throne. So, Jesus inherited the legal claim to the throne through his adoptive father Joseph, as explained in Matthew, and Jesus inherited the blood claim to the eternal throne through Mary, as explained in Luke. In this way Jesus manages to be a blood decendant of David (through David's son Nathan) without contradicting a curse God had placed on the family of Solomon, David's eldest son, the legal heir to his fathers legacy of kingship, and an ancestor to Joseph.
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« Reply #66 on: February 11, 2013, 12:58:00 PM »

My only prejudice is against a semi-Marcionite separation of the Old Testament from the New. Again, if I have misunderstood you, please clarify what you mean when you attempt to demonstrate that Christ was not a Jew. My problem is not with the idea that Christanity is Hellenistic, but with the idea that it is therefore not also Judaic.
The Bible is divided into Old and New Testaments, its not Semi-Marcionism its Orthodox. Pretending to see Marcion in what Im saying is disingenuous. if you can see that Christianity is a Hellenistic religion as you say then you have to reject that it's a Jewish religion. It can have Jewish elements without being any less Hellenistic but it can't be Jewish if it has Hellenic elements. You simply can't have it both ways.
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« Reply #67 on: February 11, 2013, 01:03:31 PM »

Any old timers having flashbacks to when GiC started posting here?

I know I am.
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« Reply #68 on: February 11, 2013, 01:06:48 PM »

The Bible is divided into Old and New Testaments, its not Semi-Marcionism its Orthodox.

But one is seen as a fulfillment of the other. Dismissing the Jewish character of the New is to disconnect it from the Old in a way that is not Orthodox.

Quote
if you can see that Christianity is a Hellenistic religion as you say then you have to reject that it's a Jewish religion. It can have Jewish elements without being any less Hellenistic but it can't be Jewish if it has Hellenic elements. You simply can't have it both ways.

Through faith in Christ and baptism we receive circumcision of the heart, we become children of Abraham by adoption, we are a branch grafted on to the Jewish tree, and are made members of the New Israel. I would say that simply calling these "Jewish elements" is quite a significant understatement, but if that's the terminology you wish to use, then okay. Christianity was expressed and made available to the world through Greek thought and language, and it is therefore Hellenistic, but it nonetheless remains Judaic in its substance. I can't quite see why you consider the two incompatible.
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« Reply #69 on: February 11, 2013, 01:26:44 PM »

If you can see that Christianity is a Hellenistic religion as you say then you have to reject that it's a Jewish religion. It can have Jewish elements without being any less Hellenistic but it can't be Jewish if it has Hellenic elements. You simply can't have it both ways.

Quote
A lot is said today about the necessity of creating new ways to understand the specifically Christian; the once successful apologetics appear to be hopelessly obsolete. Now what is oldest, closest to the original phenomenon of Christ, is also the newest and most effective. Shouldn’t the entire actuality of Christianity today be evident from the elementary fact that it represents, uniquely in universal history, the superior unity of paganism (Hellenism) and Judaism, back then just as today?

Even back then the biggest difficulty of the Church of Christ consisted in bringing together the religious tradition of Judaism with its messianic expectation with the pagan (Hellenistic) forms of piety, which – without religious hope for the future – sought by various means a present contact with divinity. Today it’s all about the same synthesis, that through the products of a secularized Judaism (and I only mean these, because there is also the faith based variety) has become even more urgent than it was back then. The challenge today is to conciliate the justified concern for the future of humanity, which lies more than ever in the power and responsibility of man, and the indispensable demand on every individual to think, here and now, about his relation to God, about his eternal salvation. Horizontally forward and vertically upward: in both directions man must give himself fully. And this he ought to be able to do in such a manner that one effort should not hinder the other, but to the contrary support it.

Hans Urs von Balthasar
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« Reply #70 on: February 11, 2013, 01:47:38 PM »

God is good, and has tolerated me so far as I struggle to extend that tolerance to others.
Thats quite evident and if you deliberately misrepresent peoples opinions it's going to be more of a struggle, if not impossible. Pretending to being even-handed when your quite obviously doing the opposite is dispicable. Kindly take your own advice.

Very well. Perhaps it is a question of your mode of expression that is encouraging the misunderstanding. Nonetheless, as you seem reticent to come out and openly express exactly what it is that you believe, one is forced to respond to what you have so far expressed as it stands and point out the significant divergence from the Orthodox belief. May God grant the others on this forum more patience than I can muster in dealing with your rather obscure position.

As a final word, I will recommend you look into the work by Fr. Lev Gillet: 'Communion in the Messiah', as it might provide some help in clarifying these questions for you.

Forgive my presumption. God only knows what is in your heart and mind.
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« Reply #71 on: February 11, 2013, 02:03:25 PM »

Yes, Christ probably was Jewish with a radical message.
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« Reply #72 on: February 11, 2013, 02:06:14 PM »

I'll let you all in on a little secret. Christ was Dutch. Who else than a Dutchman could have done miraculous things with water?
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« Reply #73 on: February 11, 2013, 02:14:25 PM »

I'll let you all in on a little secret. Christ was Dutch. Who else than a Dutchman could have done miraculous things with water?

I really hope this ain't taking a weird Germanic turn . . .
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« Reply #74 on: February 11, 2013, 09:12:49 PM »

Well, that didn't work. 
If you take your phylacteries and talit off you might be able to read it better.
Or you could not play silly games.  Either way.
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« Reply #75 on: February 11, 2013, 09:14:27 PM »

The word "this" refers to your reasoning...
Despite your intention, which I did understand thank you, in truth you implicated your own reasoning to be flawed.

This is just too easy Roll Eyes
I suppose if you are your own biggest fan, you seem like a genius to yourself.
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« Reply #76 on: February 11, 2013, 09:19:12 PM »

Was Jesus really Jewish?  Yes.
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« Reply #77 on: February 11, 2013, 09:49:27 PM »

Everybody knows that Jesus was Scottish...
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« Reply #78 on: February 11, 2013, 10:48:14 PM »

Everybody knows that Jesus was Scottish...
You got that right!  Kilts are holy garments and the bagpipe is the music we will hear in heaven!
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« Reply #79 on: February 11, 2013, 11:26:13 PM »

Okay let me pull out my handy pocket check list  Tongue
1) Is he rich and stingy? Gold and Silver was brought for his birth, Judas thought he was stingy and stole from him.  Check mark
2) Is he Hated by most people? Jew's and Romans and by some people of today. Check mark
3) Was/ Is his pee pee cut- eight day was giving a name and cut cut. Check mark
4) Does he control Governments rulers, banks and the world? Claims to be G-d. Check mark
5) Is blamed for every wrong in the world? Yes many people curse in his name to this day, Check mark

As to the Are You A Jew 101 check list we can sum it up as, he is none other than a dirty Jew.  laugh

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« Reply #80 on: February 11, 2013, 11:37:31 PM »

sky link=topic=49849.msg879206#msg879206 date=1360515925]
As to Nazarene was He not from Nazareth, and as with many cultures were people not identified by their forename and place of residence?
Wasn't he from Bethlehem, but grew up in Nazareth, where his parents were from?
[/quote]

Let's see.. One was from somewhere near the center of the Universe. The other was a Temple Maiden so she at least grew up in Jerusalem.

Intergalactic space:



Jerusalem:

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« Reply #81 on: February 11, 2013, 11:43:08 PM »

Feast of the Circumcision of Christ
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feast_of_the_Circumcision_of_Christ

The Feast of the Circumcision of Christ is a Christian celebration of the circumcision of Jesus in accordance with Jewish tradition, eight days (according to the Semitic and southern European calculation of intervals of days)[1] after his birth, the occasion on which the child was formally given his name.[2][3]

The circumcision of Jesus has traditionally been seen, as explained in the popular 14th century work the Golden Legend, as the first time the blood of Christ was shed, and thus the beginning of the process of the redemption of man, and a demonstration that Christ was fully human, and of his obedience to Biblical law.
The feast day appears on 1 January in the liturgical calendar of the Eastern Orthodox Church.[4] It also appears in the pre-1960 General Roman Calendar,[5] and is celebrated by some churches of the Anglican Communion and virtually all Lutheran churches.

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« Reply #82 on: February 12, 2013, 12:50:36 AM »

How did they do that in ancient times without infection, going into shock or loss of blood? The only pain medication I could think of back then was probably intoxication...
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« Reply #83 on: February 12, 2013, 05:33:09 AM »

How did they do that in ancient times without infection, going into shock or loss of blood? The only pain medication I could think of back then was probably intoxication...

You know, people back then weren't stupid.

It has recently been medically proved that the highest concentration of vitamin K in blood responsible for blood clotting happens on the 8th day of living. Metzitzah b'peh was also practised to prevent the infection. They also had good diagnostics of hemophilia.
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« Reply #84 on: February 12, 2013, 10:04:49 AM »

I guess it's message board mentality that produces some of the absurd replies to this post. It kinda should be obvious to everyone that if Jesus was really Jewish he wouldn't be able to preach that he was God incarnate. The clue in the OP was in the word 'really'. Of course Jesus is culturally Jewish, or incidentally Jewish as someone put it, it would be rediculous to deny it. However on counts of nationality he was of course Galilean and in the most important sense religion he was of course Christian.

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said...44 You belong to your father, the devil. John 8
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Marc1152
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« Reply #85 on: February 12, 2013, 11:34:09 AM »

How did they do that in ancient times without infection, going into shock or loss of blood? The only pain medication I could think of back then was probably intoxication...

Very little blood is shed. Yes, wine is given to the boy.

Procedure is followed with lots of kisses from Mommy.

Notice on the icon the worried face of the Theotokos..

Some things never change.

Also I would like to answer the question about tribal affiliation.

By the time of the  birth of Christ it was very late in Jewish history. The tribal system was practically non existent. The ten tribes in Israel the Northern Kingdom had been killed or scattered by invasion as we all know. The remaining two were the House of Benjamin and the House of Judah.

By the time they has returned to the Southern Kingdom from Babylon they could no longer re establish the various property and territorial claims of the two last tribes and so they were largely ignored. The tribe of Judah was larger so the the place was named for them.

« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 11:36:21 AM by Marc1152 » Logged

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Marc1152
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« Reply #86 on: February 12, 2013, 11:43:54 AM »

I guess it's message board mentality that produces some of the absurd replies to this post. It kinda should be obvious to everyone that if Jesus was really Jewish he wouldn't be able to preach that he was God incarnate. The clue in the OP was in the word 'really'. Of course Jesus is culturally Jewish, or incidentally Jewish as someone put it, it would be rediculous to deny it. However on counts of nationality he was of course Galilean and in the most important sense religion he was of course Christian.

31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said...44 You belong to your father, the devil. John 8

 It kinda should be obvious to everyone that if Jesus was really Jewish he wouldn't be able to preach that he was God incarnate.

Yes, you could be arrested an executed for such blasphemy........... Oh wait...hold on



 
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #87 on: February 12, 2013, 12:09:43 PM »

Even the word Christ is the Greek form of a Jewish concept/term.  Grin

I think Pericles is Gus Portokalos.  Wink
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 12:11:59 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) » Logged

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« Reply #88 on: February 12, 2013, 12:19:40 PM »

Kilroy was here - MK
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 07:23:03 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #89 on: February 12, 2013, 12:26:46 PM »

I'll let you all in on a little secret. Christ was Dutch. Who else than a Dutchman could have done miraculous things with water?

I really hope this ain't taking a weird Germanic turn . . .

One can only hope.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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