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Author Topic: Was Christ really Jewish?  (Read 6884 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 10, 2013, 12:04:37 PM »

In what way was Jesus Jewish? His mother Mary was an Israelite from the tribe of Levi, not Judah. At least two church Fathers thought his Name Jesus gk Iesous was Greek. He lived and worked in Galilee of the Gentiles. Spoke Greek, as did most people in Galilee. He called the Jews the 'Sons of Satan'. His cousin John the baptist was a Mandaean. Jesus was called a Nazarene, the Nazarenes were a Mandaean sect. I've seen Greeks claim that Jesus was Greek in the sense that he spoke Greek and in those days to speak Greek, was to be Greek.
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« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2013, 12:26:32 PM »

As an aside a part Jewish Orthodox friend years ago was listening to an Ultra nationalist Russian woman in a full 'Jew hate' rant, and said 'Both Jesus and His Holy Mother were Jewish'. Nonsense said the bigot, they belonged to a long lost Russian tribe.

As to Nazarene was He not from Nazareth, and as with many cultures were people not identified by their forename and place of residence?
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« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2013, 12:32:20 PM »

Jesus didn't speak Greek. He may not have even understood it.
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« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2013, 12:33:10 PM »

His uncle was Jewish high priest. Just saying...
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« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2013, 12:47:41 PM »

Nonsense said the bigot, they belonged to a long lost Russian tribe.


Interesting.  Have you heard any more of this particular idea?  Some years ago, read something along the lines that the last words from the Cross were not Hebrew but were *really* some form of a Slavic language.
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« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2013, 12:48:15 PM »

To answer the OP:  Yes
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« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2013, 01:04:31 PM »

Nonsense said the bigot, they belonged to a long lost Russian tribe.


Interesting.  Have you heard any more of this particular idea?  Some years ago, read something along the lines that the last words from the Cross were not Hebrew but were *really* some form of a Slavic language.
"British Israelite" type stuff. Galilee is called that because they are Gaelic. So Jesus was really British. One of the main places in Ukraine was Galicia, named after Gals in western Ukraine, and that must be Gaelic. So again more connections between Jesus, Britain and Ukraine.

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2013, 01:05:25 PM »

As to Nazarene was He not from Nazareth, and as with many cultures were people not identified by their forename and place of residence?
Wasn't he from Bethlehem, but grew up in Nazareth, where his parents were from?
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« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2013, 01:11:11 PM »

Nonsense said the bigot, they belonged to a long lost Russian tribe.


Interesting.  Have you heard any more of this particular idea?  Some years ago, read something along the lines that the last words from the Cross were not Hebrew but were *really* some form of a Slavic language.
"British Israelite" type stuff. Galilee is called that because they are Gaelic. So Jesus was really British. One of the main places in Ukraine was Galicia, named after Gals in western Ukraine, and that must be Gaelic. So again more connections between Jesus, Britain and Ukraine.

 Roll Eyes

Wow. Now that's a new one for me.  Huh
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« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2013, 01:16:28 PM »

I've known about "British Israelite-ism" for a long time.  It's the "long lost Russian tribe" bit that's new to me.  Particularly since, as I understand it, the idea of "Russian" didn't exist 2,100 years ago.  (Recall the idea of "Rus" and Rurik who was 9th century and that.)
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« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2013, 01:29:35 PM »

Nonsense said the bigot, they belonged to a long lost Russian tribe.


Interesting.  Have you heard any more of this particular idea?  Some years ago, read something along the lines that the last words from the Cross were not Hebrew but were *really* some form of a Slavic language.
"British Israelite" type stuff. Galilee is called that because they are Gaelic. So Jesus was really British. One of the main places in Ukraine was Galicia, named after Gals in western Ukraine, and that must be Gaelic. So again more connections between Jesus, Britain and Ukraine.

 Roll Eyes

Using similar logic XVIIth century Poles argued that Jesus was a Pole.
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« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2013, 01:33:21 PM »

Jesus didn't speak Greek. He may not have even understood it.
It was unavoidable, business was conducted in Greek in that period in Galilee. Galilee was a Hellenistic region, hence the animosity between Judaeans and Galileans and why they called it Galilee of the Greeks.
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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2013, 01:36:37 PM »

Nonsense said the bigot, they belonged to a long lost Russian tribe.


Interesting.  Have you heard any more of this particular idea?  Some years ago, read something along the lines that the last words from the Cross were not Hebrew but were *really* some form of a Slavic language.
"British Israelite" type stuff. Galilee is called that because they are Gaelic. So Jesus was really British. One of the main places in Ukraine was Galicia, named after Gals in western Ukraine, and that must be Gaelic. So again more connections between Jesus, Britain and Ukraine.

 Roll Eyes

Using similar logic XVIIth century Poles argued that Jesus was a Pole.

Fascinating.  I didn't know about that either.  Did the Polish argument connect to Great Britain or were there other counties/cultures connected.

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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2013, 01:43:06 PM »

I've known about "British Israelite-ism" for a long time.  It's the "long lost Russian tribe" bit that's new to me.  Particularly since, as I understand it, the idea of "Russian" didn't exist 2,100 years ago.  (Recall the idea of "Rus" and Rurik who was 9th century and that.)
Ebor,

Over a thousand years ago, the geographical region of Ukraine contained several "Rus" tribes or principalities, and was therefore called Kievan Rus. Thus, later on the Tsar was called the Tsar of all the "Russias."

Since Jesus was Ukrainian, that makes him Russian too. The Bible doesn't call him Ukrainian because as you pointed out it wasn't called Ukraine then. But it was basically the same group of Galicians.

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Buddha, Jesus Christ and Ancient Egyptian were Ukrainians
12.03.2009

Valery Bebik, a Doctor of Political Sciences, a professor, deputy principal of Ukraine University, the chairman of the board of the All-Ukrainian Association of Political Sciences... published a number of his articles in the official newspaper of the Ukrainian Parliament before. He wrote his previous articles for the paper to “prove” the remarkable role of the Ukrainian civilization, which endowed the world with spiritual enlightenment, outstanding prophets, philosophers and leaders.

In 2008-2009, the Ukrainian professor shared his amazing observations of Ancient Egypt, Ancient Greece and the ethnic origin of Jesus Christ.  "It looks like Christ actually lived 3,000 years before his canonical birth and spoke the Coptic language, which is a close language to the ancestors of contemporary Ukrainians,” The Voice of Ukraine wrote.

http://english.pravda.ru/society/stories/12-03-2009/107229-buddha_jesus_christ_ukraine-0
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« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2013, 01:50:35 PM »

Using similar logic XVIIth century Poles argued that Jesus was a Pole.
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Oczywiście!
And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people (Is. 11:10)
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« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2013, 01:59:25 PM »

Nonsense said the bigot, they belonged to a long lost Russian tribe.


Interesting.  Have you heard any more of this particular idea?  Some years ago, read something along the lines that the last words from the Cross were not Hebrew but were *really* some form of a Slavic language.
"British Israelite" type stuff. Galilee is called that because they are Gaelic. So Jesus was really British. One of the main places in Ukraine was Galicia, named after Gals in western Ukraine, and that must be Gaelic. So again more connections between Jesus, Britain and Ukraine.

 Roll Eyes

Using similar logic XVIIth century Poles argued that Jesus was a Pole.

Fascinating.  I didn't know about that either.  Did the Polish argument connect to Great Britain or were there other counties/cultures connected.



"Palestyna is a modified name of Poland: Polaszczyna" - Wojciech Dębołecki OFMConv, 1633
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« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2013, 02:21:18 PM »

Nonsense said the bigot, they belonged to a long lost Russian tribe.


Interesting.  Have you heard any more of this particular idea?  Some years ago, read something along the lines that the last words from the Cross were not Hebrew but were *really* some form of a Slavic language.
"British Israelite" type stuff. Galilee is called that because they are Gaelic. So Jesus was really British. One of the main places in Ukraine was Galicia, named after Gals in western Ukraine, and that must be Gaelic. So again more connections between Jesus, Britain and Ukraine.

 Roll Eyes



Wow. Now that's a new one for me.  Huh

The lady in question, now dead, was so extreme in her politics and bigotry that when my friend pointed out her Jewish roots the response was, "But you can't be, I like you". The British interned her during during World War Two, and the Russian Church in Exile refused her communion.

These specious assertions that Our Saviour belonged to this, that or the other ethnic/language/tribal group have a long history and no foundation save the fantasies of those who spin them. Too often they are simply laughable save for the fantasist who needs to bolster his or her identity.
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« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2013, 02:24:37 PM »

As to Nazarene was He not from Nazareth, and as with many cultures were people not identified by their forename and place of residence?
Wasn't he from Bethlehem, but grew up in Nazareth, where his parents were from?

True, but fled as an infant into Egypt before the family returned to Nazareth, where He grew up.
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« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2013, 02:29:46 PM »

Using similar logic XVIIth century Poles argued that Jesus was a Pole.

Quote from: Ebor

Fascinating.  I didn't know about that either.  Did the Polish argument connect to Great Britain or were there other counties/cultures connected.



"Palestyna is a modified name of Poland: Polaszczyna" - Wojciech Dębołecki OFMConv, 1633

Thank you.  That's very interesting, though I hope that you personally will not be offended that I don't believe the language connection.  Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2013, 02:43:12 PM »

Thank you.  That's very interesting, though I hope that you personally will not be offended that I don't believe the language connection.  Smiley
What are you talking about?  Palestina = Poleschina  
After all, their country's name means the "Poly Land"!
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« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2013, 04:37:27 PM »

Are we going from gay-baiting to Jew-baiting now?
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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2013, 04:39:47 PM »

Are we going from gay-baiting to Jew-baiting now?

It's Pericles only. I hope he will realise soon that no one shares his phobia and give up.
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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2013, 04:51:44 PM »

The answer is: Aliens!
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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2013, 05:08:41 PM »

Even the word Christ is the Greek form of a Jewish concept/term.  Grin
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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2013, 08:05:33 PM »

The answer is: Aliens!
Is He not of this world?
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« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2013, 08:14:55 PM »

"Palestyna is a modified name of Poland: Polaszczyna" - Wojciech Dębołecki OFMConv, 1633

Quote
It is known that when the first Jews went to settle in Poland, they said ‘Polin” – po lin, 'rest here'. That they would rest here during exile (and this is the real reason why that nation has that name because even if they didn’t see this, their mazal saw it).

Source

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« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2013, 08:18:05 PM »

"Palestyna is a modified name of Poland: Polaszczyna" - Wojciech Dębołecki OFMConv, 1633

Quote
It is known that when the first Jews went to settle in Poland, they said ‘Polin” – po lin, 'rest here'. That they would rest here during exile (and this is the real reason why that nation has that name because even if they didn’t see this, their mazal saw it).

Source


LOL!
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« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2013, 08:29:11 PM »

Quote
It is known that when the first Jews went to settle in Poland, they said ‘Polin” – po lin, 'rest here'. That they would rest here during exile (and this is the real reason why that nation has that name because even if they didn’t see this, their mazal saw it).

Source

Poland /ˈpoʊlənd/ (Polish: Polska)
_____________________^^^^^

But anyway, his explanation is rational about why they, as opposed to Poles, might call it that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polin
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« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2013, 08:35:03 PM »


Poland /ˈpoʊlənd/ (Polish: Polska)
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« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2013, 11:34:46 PM »

This has got to be one of the most Cradle Christopher posts I have ever seen.
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« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2013, 01:28:45 AM »

In what way was Jesus Jewish? His mother Mary was an Israelite from the tribe of Levi, not Judah. At least two church Fathers thought his Name Jesus gk Iesous was Greek. He lived and worked in Galilee of the Gentiles. Spoke Greek, as did most people in Galilee. He called the Jews the 'Sons of Satan'. His cousin John the baptist was a Mandaean. Jesus was called a Nazarene, the Nazarenes were a Mandaean sect. I've seen Greeks claim that Jesus was Greek in the sense that he spoke Greek and in those days to speak Greek, was to be Greek.

First of all, sources please. Which Fathers? and where? Two Fathers does not a consensus make.

Secondly, suggesting that St. John the Baptist was a Mandaean is a bit of an anachronism, no? Unless you would follow the Mandaean's chronology and their claiming St. John for themselves, in which case, why not become a Mandaean?

To address your question, though, and overlooking the etymologically and historically muddled speculations appended to it: Yes, according to the Orthodox, Jesus Christ was most certainly Jewish, and not incidentally, but of necessity (as it were) and by design. Read the Gospels for starters. Off the top of my head: Luke 2:21-24 and what follows, also 2:41-49. John 2:13-17 & 4:19-22. Galatians 4:4-5. Romans 1:3.

However, you are under no compulsion to believe this, as you are apparently not Orthodox, and I am thinking doubtfully Christian, as attested by your continual reference to the most florid heretical delusions. So, for you, He can be whoever you want, I suppose: The Aryan Christ, The Gnostic Christ, The Mandaean Christ, The Muslim Christ, etc. At some point you will have to make up your mind whether to accept Him or some counterfeit version of Him. The choice is yours alone to make but it is not one to be taken lightly.

May God grant you wisdom.
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« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2013, 03:13:23 AM »

Even the word Christ is the Greek form of a Jewish concept/term.  Grin
His real Name is Yeshua Ha'Machiach...
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« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2013, 04:36:27 AM »

He'll always be Jesus to me!
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« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2013, 04:58:55 AM »

...you are apparently not Orthodox, and I am thinking doubtfully Christian...May God grant you wisdom.
<<< Indeed! well may God grant you understanding. Cheesy
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« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2013, 05:31:34 AM »

...you are apparently not Orthodox, and I am thinking doubtfully Christian...May God grant you wisdom.
<<< Indeed! well may God grant you understanding. Cheesy

There's a curious resurgence of Hellenistic paganism going on in Greece. Some strands are overtly anti-Christian, while others (like Pericles) attempt to make Christ into a Greek sage and thus "redeem" him. I've even heard of some nutty linguist who tried to argue that Hebrew is a Greek dialect.

This reminds me of our own Dacomaniacs (Romanian protochronism).

@ Pericles your signature has a spelling mistake: it should be Graecia capta, not capla

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« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2013, 06:10:30 AM »

Jesus didn't speak Greek. He may not have even understood it.
It was unavoidable, business was conducted in Greek in that period in Galilee. Galilee was a Hellenistic region, hence the animosity between Judaeans and Galileans and why they called it Galilee of the Greeks.

They called it 'Galilee of the Gentiles' (galil haggoyim/Galilaia allophylon), not 'of the Greeks'.

Quote
The current understanding of Judaism’s complex interaction with Hellenism as a cultural force, even in Palestine, makes it impossible to continue with stereotypes such as the epithet “Galilee of the Gentiles” might suggest. Galilee was unmistakably Jewish, at least by the time of Pompey’s intervention; otherwise it would not have been assigned to the territory of the ethnarch, Hyrcanus. The question then is: How did their Jewish loyalty affect the cultural affiliations of the natives, given that they were surrounded by Greek-style city-states and their territories? In discussing such a question it is important to recognize that while cultural affiliation and social stratification are intimately interwoven, allegiance to the values of the larger culture at one level need not necessarily mean their acceptance in other more-intimate areas of life. What, for example, are the assumptions of the Markan narrator about cross-cultural contacts in Galilee when we are informed that a Syrophoenician woman, a Greek, came to a Jewish healer, Jesus, in search of a cure for her child? (...)

There is widespread acceptance of the fact that Aramaic was the lingua franca of Galilee in the 1st century c.e., but that by itself did not mean cultural isolation; it had been for centuries the international language of the whole Syrian region. Greek, had indeed replaced it as the language of trade and commerce as well as of administration since Alexander’s conquests. In Galilee this meant that those who first used Greek would have been non-natives or those who were involved in the bureaucratic structures. Inscriptional evidence suggests that Greek was more common in the region of the lakefront than elsewhere, but even then one has to be cautious in using it as a cultural indicator. (...)

On the basis of what we know from elsewhere, some distinction must also be made between the city culture of such places as Sepphoris and Tiberias as well as the larger of Josephus’ densely populated villages and the smaller units among the 204 such places which he claims for Galilee. In many of these, the natural conservatism of the peasant way of life would have been resistant not just to the cultural aspects of Hellenism, but even to its technical advantages. Claims to the contrary, often based on meager and disparate evidence, notwithstanding, there seems to be every indication that such resistance, often supported by Jewish religious values, was quite successful.

"Galilee: Hellenistic/Roman Galilee" in the Anchor Bible Dictionary.
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« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2013, 06:19:04 AM »

There's a curious resurgence of Hellenistic paganism going on in Greece. Some strands are overtly anti-Christian, while others (like Pericles) attempt to make Christ into a Greek sage and thus "redeem" him.
Thats nearly correct, theres a resurgence of Hellenism in some sections of Greece. For some it takes the form of Classical Paganism for others it is Christian Hellenism.

Orthodoxy is Hellenism - Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew
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« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2013, 06:26:31 AM »

The answer is: Aliens!
Is He not of this world?

That is what Joseph Smith said and Smith was from America, so Jesus was an American citizen, but not of this world. Shocked  Just think about that for a moment.
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« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2013, 06:35:22 AM »

Orthodoxy is Hellenism - Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew

Depending on the context of the EP's affirmation, one could or could not agree with it. If it means that the (Greek) Orthodox Church is the continuation of Hellenistic culture in that it inherited much of its values and historical heritage, then ok. If it is interpreted to mean that true Orthodoxy is peculiar to the Hellenes alone (Jesus was Greek, etc.), it would be a form of phyletism comparable to Slavophilia.   

"The Church should not be confused with the destiny of a single nation or a single race." It was the Ecumenical Patriarchate itself that defined and condemned ethnophyletism as heresy.
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« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2013, 07:25:06 AM »

If it means that the (Greek) Orthodox Church is the continuation of Hellenistic culture in that it inherited much of its values and historical heritage, then ok.
Thats how I see it, with the caveat that it means that Greek Orthodoxy is a Helleno-Christian and not a Judaeo-Christian, religion. Also saying that Christ is Greek is meant in the sense of being Greek speaking, not ethnically. It is to say he is universal (Hellenistic) and not confused with the destiny of a single nation or a single race (Jewish).
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« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2013, 07:30:17 AM »

Thats how I see it, with the caveat that it means that Greek Orthodoxy is a Helleno-Christian and not a Judaeo-Christian, religion.

Christianity is Judaeo-Hellenic. Denying the obvious Jewishness of Christianity is utterly baseless and untenable for anyone who has read the New Testament. I would go as far as to say it was a moderate form of the Marcionite heresy.
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« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2013, 07:34:05 AM »

Christianity is Judaeo-Hellenic.
Impossible how can you both reject Christ and accept him at the same time, the idea is proposterous.
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« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2013, 07:35:32 AM »

Impossible how can you both reject Christ and accept him at the same time, the idea is proposterous.

Since when did "Judeo" imply a rejection of Christ? I did not say "Rabbino-Hellenic" or "Talmudo-Hellenic".
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« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2013, 07:36:40 AM »

If it means that the (Greek) Orthodox Church is the continuation of Hellenistic culture in that it inherited much of its values and historical heritage, then ok.
Thats how I see it, with the caveat that it means that Greek Orthodoxy is a Helleno-Christian and not a Judaeo-Christian, religion. Also saying that Christ is Greek is meant in the sense of being Greek speaking, not ethnically. It is to say he is universal (Hellenistic) and not confused with the destiny of a single nation or a single race (Jewish).

Marcion much?

The issue of Jewish phyletism was dealt with at the Synod of Jerusalem (Acts 15), when the Church ruled in favour of St. Paul's mission to the Gentiles.
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« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2013, 07:38:54 AM »

Since when did "Judeo" imply a rejection of Christ?
Since the crowd demanded that Herod put Christ to death.
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