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Author Topic: I wear the Brown Scapular  (Read 10002 times) Average Rating: 0
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Arystarcus
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« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2005, 12:34:04 AM »

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There are some Roman Catholic priests who I would no honored to receive last rites from.

That may be, but I only used the situation to show how your wearing a scapular could cause confusion to those who do not know you, or your own personal belief system and would assume you to be a Roman Catholic.

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I believe you are misunderstanding my point.

I am trying to figure out what exactly your point may be in all of this, would you care to let everyone know?

In Christ,
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« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2005, 12:47:38 AM »


I am trying to figure out what exactly your point may be in all of this, would you care to let everyone know?


My point is what I have learned at the Malankara Church and from Father Michael. There is enough that Orthodox and Catholic Christians share in common that we should be able to have peace, understanding, tolerance, and even fellowship with each other.
However, there are certain problems within the Roman Church that prevent us from uniting under the authority of Rome and neither should we have to unite under the authority of Rome. It is good that we have our autonomy because it protects our faith from corruption.
This necessary separation of jurisiction does not prevent Catholics from receiving communion in our Church.
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« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2005, 12:53:20 AM »

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This necessary separation of jurisiction does not prevent Catholics from receiving communion in our Church.

It should, no matter how much that may irk you, it's the truth.

As Mor has stated previously, how things are practiced in your individual church is not the way things are practiced in the Church as a whole.

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« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2005, 12:58:24 AM »


As Mor has stated previously, how things are practiced in your individual church is not the way things are practiced in the Church as a whole.


Mor said that he needs to look in to it.

I know of one occasion when Bishop Makarios made an exception to even allow a Protestant to receive the Eucharist during Holy Qurbana.
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« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2005, 01:03:24 AM »

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I know of one occasion when Bishop Makarios made an exception to even allow a Protestant to receive the Eucharist during Holy Qurbana.

Lord have mercy!

 :bang:  :scratch:
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« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2005, 01:07:00 AM »



Mor said that he needs to look in to it.

I know of one occasion when Bishop Makarios made an exception to even allow a Protestant to receive the Eucharist during Holy Qurbana.

That is really disturbing. Protestants do not have the same faith as Orthodox.

Anastasios
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« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2005, 01:17:08 AM »



That is really disturbing. Protestants do not have the same faith as Orthodox.

Anastasios

Some priests felt the same way and scoffed. However, as far as I know, he believed that it wouldn't hurt to make the exception for the man and that perhaps God wanted to work through the Protestant by allowing him to receive the Eucharist.
This is not at all the norm, just a particular exception.
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« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2005, 01:24:49 AM »

Matthew, dude, you made 53 posts yesterday, and have made 4 already today in the first 20 minutes. Take a breather, go ahead, we'll be here when you get back. :coffee:
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« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2005, 01:26:50 AM »

Matthew, dude, you made 53 posts yesterday, and have made 4 already today in the first 20 minutes. Take a breather, go ahead, we'll be here when you get back. :coffee:

Nah, keep posting Matthew, we like large volume posters like you! Smiley

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« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2005, 01:32:23 AM »

If we are to continue with this discussion, I would highly prefer for it to be related to the Brown Scapular.

1. Can Orthodox Christians wear the Scapular and believe the history surrounding it? If not, why not?

2. Is there anything in particular about the Scapular that contradicts Orthodox doctrine? If I knew of any gross contradiction or evil surrounding the scapular, I would discontinue wearing it.

3. Am I causing myself any harm by wearing it?

4. Wearing the Scapular reminds me of my commitment to Mary and her Son, and the need to be in frequent prayer for her intercession. How is that wrong?

I humbly await a response.

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« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2005, 02:02:28 AM »

wait for it....wait for it.....



Ask your priest or spiritual director as it relates to you.


As it relates to all Orthodox Christians; My opinion is that while not all practices of other traditions are bad or doctrinally suspect, Orthodoxy contains all you need, and spiritual disciplines or vestiges of traditions from other groups should generally not be practiced since there is nothing in them that is not realized fully in the good and doctrinally correct traditions of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2005, 02:22:53 AM »

I know of one occasion when Bishop Makarios made an exception to even allow a Protestant to receive the Eucharist during Holy Qurbana.

Just out of curiosity of what denomination was the person? I've heard of some OO clergy Communicating Anglicans and Lutherans. Thier understanding of the Eucharist is closer to Orthodoxy then say a Baptist or a Presby.
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« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2005, 02:33:49 AM »

Matthew, dude, you made 53 posts yesterday, and have made 4 already today in the first 20 minutes. Take a breather, go ahead, we'll be here when you get back. :coffee:

Really...I'm always posting at these wierd hours 'cuz I work nights...it always amazes me how many folks are up in the wee hours :a:
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« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2005, 03:03:18 AM »


Really...I'm always posting at these wierd hours 'cuz I work nights...it always amazes me how many folks are up in the wee hours :a:

The wee hours happen to be daylight hours in the part of the world I inhabit Cheesy
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« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2005, 05:34:05 AM »

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I'm always posting at these wierd hours 'cuz I work nights

Same for my wife and I Smiley
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« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2005, 07:38:57 AM »

1. Can Orthodox Christians wear the Scapular and believe the history surrounding it? If not, why not?

2. Is there anything in particular about the Scapular that contradicts Orthodox doctrine? If I knew of any gross contradiction or evil surrounding the scapular, I would discontinue wearing it.

3. Am I causing myself any harm by wearing it?

4. Wearing the Scapular reminds me of my commitment to Mary and her Son, and the need to be in frequent prayer for her intercession. How is that wrong?

If I could,

These have been answered by folks on this forum rather thoroughly...I'm not sure what more you're looking for by asking them again (unless it's an actual validation for your practices, which may not be forthcoming and...well...why woluld you need or want any of our validations anyway?).  The common thought here seems to be:

  • The scapular is a RC tradition and, while it may NOT cause you any harm, you need to "stick to your own kind" for safer spiritual medicine
  • You need to take this up with a priest (or more than one, if possible) instead of spending your efforts (53 posts?!?) here.  Not that we don't appreciate your being here, but still!   Grin
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« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2005, 09:55:57 AM »

... You have just decided to pick and choose what you like from either Church's respective traditions, making your own belief system .... being in the middle of the road is not the best place to be.

I can vouch for this!
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« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2005, 09:59:16 AM »

[I wonder what it is about your conversion to Orthodoxy that you would suddenly feel the need to don Roman Catholic sacramentals...?]

I looked in to the history and doctrine of the scapular.

So, you convert to Orthodoxy and decide that God wants you to utilize a Roman Catholic talisman?

That makes absolutely NO SENSE!

That is really disturbing. Protestants do not have the same faith as Orthodox.

Yeah. I have to agree with this

Even as pathetic as I am within the Faith -- I still would not accept communion in a Protestant church.
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« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2005, 01:13:22 PM »



Just out of curiosity of what denomination was the person? I've heard of some OO clergy Communicating Anglicans and Lutherans. Thier understanding of the Eucharist is closer to Orthodoxy then say a Baptist or a Presby.

He was waiving his hands in the air and speaking in tongs so maybe he was Pentacostal. There must have been some higher reason why Bishop Makarios made the exception for the man to receive Communion.
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« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2005, 01:15:31 PM »

He was waiving his hands in the air and speaking in tongs so maybe he was Pentacostal. There must have been some higher reason why Bishop Makarios made the exception for the man to receive Communion.

And this was TOLERATED during the Liturgy???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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« Reply #65 on: January 13, 2005, 01:19:46 PM »



And this was TOLERATED during the Liturgy???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Christ is Christ.  Smiley

I do not know about all the circumstances surrounding this particular celebration of Holy Qurbana. Again, there must have been some good reason why Bishop Makarios made the exception for this man.
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« Reply #66 on: January 13, 2005, 01:20:38 PM »

He was waiving his hands in the air and speaking in tongs so maybe he was Pentacostal. There must have been some higher reason why Bishop Makarios made the exception for the man to receive Communion.

This is just getting stranger and stranger...

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« Reply #67 on: January 13, 2005, 01:54:57 PM »

This is just getting stranger and stranger...

Yeah - this is even too weird for me! I'm OUTA this thread.

(stop applauding!) Grin
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« Reply #68 on: January 13, 2005, 02:08:10 PM »



Christ is Christ. Smiley

I do not know about all the circumstances surrounding this particular celebration of Holy Qurbana. Again, there must have been some good reason why Bishop Makarios made the exception for this man.

No, Christ is not Christ. Christ is known through the Church. People outside the Church do not know Christ the way people inside the Church do. Now God can make exceptions for anyone, but his exceptions do not translate into our affirming separated people as part of the body. We are to love everyone but welcome them into the Church of Christ, not bless their separation by communing them "as is."

Anastasios
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« Reply #69 on: January 13, 2005, 02:28:11 PM »



No, Christ is not Christ. Christ is known through the Church. People outside the Church do not know Christ the way people inside the Church do. Now God can make exceptions for anyone, but his exceptions do not translate into our affirming separated people as part of the body. We are to love everyone but welcome them into the Church of Christ, not bless their separation by communing them "as is."

Anastasios

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« Reply #70 on: January 13, 2005, 02:44:31 PM »

It seems to me that allowing someone to receive who has not prepared themselves by fasting, self examination and Confession isn't doing them any favor, especially if that person may not discern the Mystery as the Body & Blood of Christ, but think of it as a symbol.
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« Reply #71 on: January 13, 2005, 03:00:09 PM »

Man, this is troll city.
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« Reply #72 on: January 13, 2005, 03:05:34 PM »



"If one who lives in the midst of Christendom goes up to the house of God, the house of the true God, with the true conception of God in his knowledge, and prays, but prays in false spirit; and one who lives in an idolatrous community prays with the entire passion of the infinite, although his eyes rest upon the image of an idol: where is there the most truth? The one prays in truth to God though he worships an idol; the other prays falsely to the true God, and hence worships in fact an idol."
Soren Kierkegaard

Who is this Kierkegaard? Is it the philosopher? Last time I checked, he was not a canonized saint and Father of the Orthodox Church.  I will trust those who were spiritually illumined over those who are just guessing.

Anastasios
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« Reply #73 on: January 13, 2005, 03:08:21 PM »

The desert fathers spoke great wisdom with a much fewer words than Soren Kierkegaard.
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« Reply #74 on: January 13, 2005, 03:33:54 PM »



Who is this Kierkegaard? Is it the philosopher?

He was a devout Christian and the founder of existentialism. Regardless of the authority, the words are still important enough for us to consider.

I do not believe, and neither does Bishop Makorios, that a Protestant should be allowed to partake in the Divine Mysteries. However, given that all I know of this incidence is hearsay, and I do not know the particular reason why he allowed for this exception, it would be safe and respectful to assume that he did so for a good reason.
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« Reply #75 on: January 13, 2005, 03:47:54 PM »

He was waiving his hands in the air and speaking in tongs so maybe he was Pentacostal.



Oh, this is just too much....
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« Reply #76 on: January 13, 2005, 03:52:34 PM »





Oh, this is just too much....
I do not believe, and neither does Bishop Makorios, that a Protestant should be allowed to partake in the Divine Mysteries. However, given that all I know of this incidence is hearsay, and I do not know the particular reason why he allowed for this exception, it would be safe and respectful to assume that he did so for a good reason.

Regardless how we feel about this incident, it is beside the point if this discussion.

I will consult Father Michael on the rightness of wearing the Brown Scapular and I thank you for that advice.
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« Reply #77 on: January 13, 2005, 04:03:15 PM »

Regardless how we feel about this incident, it is beside the point if this discussion.

Well, I'm not referring to the "incident" -- it's not my place to correct the bishop, as he may have had his reasons -- but for you to seemingly condone this with a "Christ is Christ" attitude...that's what I "exploded" about.
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« Reply #78 on: January 13, 2005, 04:16:41 PM »

but for you to seemingly condone this with a "Christ is Christ" attitude

That statement does not necessarily reflect the stance of my Church but it is to an extant what I have learned from personal experience.

For example, I would have no reason to doubt the possibility that Billy Graham is just as holy as a Christian as Bishop Makarios.
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« Reply #79 on: January 13, 2005, 05:27:23 PM »

Let's all just hold hands and sing a song about Buddy Jesus and call it a day.
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« Reply #80 on: January 13, 2005, 05:31:04 PM »

Let's all just hold hands and sing a song about Buddy Jesus and call it a day.

Billy Graham has preached the Gospel to more people than any single man in the history of the faith. His ministry is an asset and a blessing to Christianity and the world.
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« Reply #81 on: January 13, 2005, 05:52:58 PM »

Let's all just hold hands and sing a song about Buddy Jesus and call it a day.

*snickers*  Maybe I'll go snuggle my Jesus comes to play dolll too.

 

http://thegodsquad.com/cgi-local/shop.pl/page=products.htm


 

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« Reply #82 on: January 13, 2005, 09:56:09 PM »



He was waiving his hands in the air and speaking in tongs so maybe he was Pentacostal. There must have been some higher reason why Bishop Makarios made the exception for the man to receive Communion.

If this is true, it is an abomination.  From what I read recently (can't say if it's actually true), Pentecostals don't even believe in the Trinity as we do.  I've NEVER heard of any of our bishops taking such a liberty with economy...this is outrageous.  I can't think of any circumstances which would justify such a thing. 

Matthew, who is the bishop of our American Diocese?     
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« Reply #83 on: January 13, 2005, 10:58:59 PM »

Most all pentecostals believe in the Trinity.  Only one I know of that does not is called the United Pentecostal Church.  The latter believe in 'Jesus only' basing most of it on Acts where it says to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus...........

But Assembly of God pentecostals do believe in the Trinity.

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« Reply #84 on: January 14, 2005, 02:29:33 AM »

If this is true, it is an abomination.

What right do we have to accuse our own bishop of abomination?

Pentecostals don't even believe in the Trinity as we do.

I went out on a limb by saying he was maybe Pentecostal. I only said this because he was waving his hands in the air while speaking in tongs.

I've NEVER heard of any of our bishops taking such a liberty with economy...this is outrageous.

Seemingly outrageous circumstances sometimes call for seemingly outrageous exceptions.

I can't think of any circumstances which would justify such a thing.

I can think of a few. Perhaps Bishop Makorios felt in his heart that the Protestant man's gift of speaking in tongs served as a sign that for that particular circumstance, for that particular celebration of the Divine Liturgy, God wanted him to receive the Holy Mysteries.

Matthew, who is the bishop of our American Diocese?  

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« Reply #85 on: January 14, 2005, 04:45:59 AM »

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It seems to me that allowing someone to receive who has not prepared themselves by fasting, self examination and Confession isn't doing them any favor, especially if that person may not discern the Mystery as the Body & Blood of Christ, but think of it as a symbol.

Exactly!

"Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's[f] body. For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep." 1 Corinthians 11:27-30

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This is just getting stranger and stranger...

You can say that twice and mean it!  Shocked

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Man, this is troll city.

That is what I have been thinking....   Roll Eyes
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Matthew777
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« Reply #86 on: January 14, 2005, 04:51:21 AM »

Seemingly outrageous circumstances sometimes call for seemingly outrageous exceptions.

Since we have pretty much resolved the topic of this thread (that I should talk with my priest about this), I see no necessity in continuing this thread.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2005, 05:17:09 AM by Matthew777 » Logged

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Arystarcus
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« Reply #87 on: January 14, 2005, 05:10:54 AM »

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I see no necessity in continuing this thread.

I was just posting my $0.02 worth since I hadn't been online during the day to see what new goings-on had transpired.

Sorry.  :-";"xx
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Matthew777
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« Reply #88 on: January 14, 2005, 05:16:09 AM »

Sorry. :-

There is no reason to apologize. Thank you for caring and may peace be upon you and your spirit.
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He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Twenty Nine
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« Reply #89 on: January 14, 2005, 09:25:49 AM »

Billy Graham has preached the Gospel to more people than any single man in the history of the faith. His ministry is an asset and a blessing to Christianity and the world.

Billy Graham is teaching a false gospel. Are you just trying to be as ridiculous as possible?

Gregory
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Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. - Philippians 4:8
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