OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 28, 2014, 02:38:33 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: I wear the Brown Scapular  (Read 10030 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« on: January 11, 2005, 04:03:29 PM »

I am an Orthodox convert from Catholicism who still believes in the power of the Brown Scapular and the historicity of Simon Stock's account of his encounter with the Virgin Mary on Mount Carmel. I try to remember to wear my scapular every time I leave the house, even while attending Divine Liturgy.

Do you believe that Orthodox Christians should hold to the merit of the Brown Scapular and should they be able to wear it?

In case anyone is unfamilier with the scapular, here is an article from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"The Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. Also known as the Brown Scapular, this is the best known, most celebrated, and most widespread of the small scapulars. It is spoken of as "the Scapular", and the "feast of the Scapular" is that of Our Lady of Mount Carmel on 16 July. It is probably the oldest scapular and served as the prototype of the others. According to a pious tradition the Blessed Virgin appeared to St. Simon Stock at Cambridge, England, on Sunday, 16 July, 1251. In answer to his appeal for help for his oppressed order, she appeared to him with a scapular in her hand and said: "Take, beloved son this scapular of thy order as a badge of my confraternity and for thee and all Carmelites a special sign of grace; whoever dies in this garment, will not suffer everlasting fire. It is the sign of salvation, a safeguard in dangers, a pledge of peace and of the covenant". This tradition, however, appears in such a precise form for the first time in 1642, when the words of the Blessed Virgin were given in a circular of St. Simon Stock which he is said to have dictated to his companion secretary, and confessor, Peter Swanyngton. Although it has now been sufficiently shown that this testimony cannot be supported by historical documents, still its general content remains a reliable pious tradition; in other words, it is credible that St. Simon Stock was assured in a supernatural manner of the special protection of the Blessed Virgin for his whole order and for all who should wear the Carmelite habit, that the Blessed Virgin also promised him to grant special aid, especially in the hour of death, to those who in holy fidelity wore this habit in her honour throughout life, so that they should be preserved from hell. And, even though there is here no direct reference to the members of the scapular confraternity, indirectly the promise is extended to all who from devotion to the Mother of God should wear her habit or badge, like true Christians, until death, and be thus as it were affiliated to the Carmelite Order.

Heretofore no authenticated testimony has been discovered proving that the small scapular was known from the second half of the thirteenth century and was given to the members of the Confraternity of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. On the contrary there are many reasons for the view that the small scapular, as we now know it and in the form it has certainly had since the sixteenth century, is of much later origin. Zimmerman (Mon. hist. Carmelit.) and Saltet give very reasonable grounds for this view. In any case, the scapular was very widespread in European countries at the end of the sixteenth century, as is evident from "La cronica Carmelitana" of the Carmelite Joseph Falcone (Piacenza, 1595). In 1600 appeared at Palermo the "Giardino Carmelitano" of the Carmelite Egidio Leoindelicato da Sciacca (the approval is dated 1592). Towards the end the author gives after the formulas of benediction for the Fratelli and Sorelle della Compagnia della Madonna del Carmine (who receive the complete habit of the order) the formula for the blessing of the scapular for the Devoti della Compagnia Carmelitana (pp. 239 sqq.). This is the earliest form of benediction for the small scapular with which we are acquainted. It is also noteworthy that the formula for the sisters contains no reference to the scapular, while in that for the brothers there is a special blessing for the scapular.

Nevertheless, even should we admit that the small scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel originated even as late as the beginning of the sixteenth century, yet the above promise, which is designated the first privilege of the Carmelite Scapular, remains unimpaired. For this privilege declares nothing else than that all those who out of true veneration and love for the Blessed Virgin constantly wear the scapular in a spirit of fidelity and confiding faith, after they have been placed by the Church itself with this habit or badge under the special protection of the Mother of God, shall enjoy this special protection in the matter and crisis which most concerns them for time and eternity. Whoever, therefore, even though he be now a sinner, wears the badge of the Mother of God throughout life as her faithful servant, not presumptuously relying on the scapular as on a miraculous amulet, but trustfully confiding in the power and goodness of Mary, may securely hope that Mary will through her powerful and motherly intercession procure for him all the necessary graces for true conversion and for perseverance in good. Such is the meaning and importance of the first privilege of the Carmelite Scapular, which is wont to be expressed in the words: "whoever wears the scapular until death, will be preserved from hell".

The second privilege of the scapular otherwise known as the Sabbatine privilege, may be briefly defined as meaning that Mary's motherly assistance for her servants in the Scapular Confraternity will continue after death, and will find effect especially on Saturday (the day consecrated to her honour), provided that the members fulfill faithfully the not easy conditions necessary for obtaining this privilege.

As regards the external form of the scapular, it should consist of two segments of brown woollen cloth; black, however, is also admissible. This scapular usually bears on one side the image of our Lady of Mount Carmel, but neither this nor any other image is prescribed. The authentic list of indulgences, privileges, and indults of the Scapular Confraternity of Mount Carmel was last approved on 4 July, 1908, by the Congregation of Indulgences. It is noteworthy that this summary says nothing of the above-mentioned first privilege; what it says of the Sabbatine privilege is explained in the article on that subject. Concerning the often miraculous protection which Mary on account of this her badge has granted to pious members of the Scapular Confraternity in great perils of soul and body, there exist many records and reliable reports (some of recent times), to which it is impossible to refuse credence. Like the rosary, this scapular has become the badge of the devout Catholic and the true servant of Mary."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13508b.htm

Discuss...
« Last Edit: January 11, 2005, 04:07:08 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2005, 04:06:33 PM »

Geez. Mary? Why is not Christ enough?
Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2005, 04:10:35 PM »

Geez. Mary? Why is not Christ enough?

As Orthodox Christians, we believe in the rightness and power of intercession. One who wears a brown scapular recieves the intercession of Mary:

"For this privilege declares nothing else than that all those who out of true veneration and love for the Blessed Virgin constantly wear the scapular in a spirit of fidelity and confiding faith, after they have been placed by the Church itself with this habit or badge under the special protection of the Mother of God, shall enjoy this special protection in the matter and crisis which most concerns them for time and eternity. Whoever, therefore, even though he be now a sinner, wears the badge of the Mother of God throughout life as her faithful servant, not presumptuously relying on the scapular as on a miraculous amulet, but trustfully confiding in the power and goodness of Mary, may securely hope that Mary will through her powerful and motherly intercession procure for him all the necessary graces for true conversion and for perseverance in good. Such is the meaning and importance of the first privilege of the Carmelite Scapular, which is wont to be expressed in the words: "whoever wears the scapular until death, will be preserved from hell".
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2005, 04:12:04 PM »

Such is the meaning and importance of the first privilege of the Carmelite Scapular, which is wont to be expressed in the words: "whoever wears the scapular until death, will be preserved from hell".

Ummmmm, right. Whatever.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2005, 04:12:44 PM by TomS » Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2005, 04:13:51 PM »

Right. Whatever.

As Orthodox Christians, we pray the Hail Mary and believe in the intercession of the Blessed Virgin.
How then is the scapular hard to consider?
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
bripat22
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 182


Slava Tebie, Boze nas! Slava Tebie


« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2005, 04:25:56 PM »

 Matthew,

 i am so glad you keep this connection with especially the Carmelite tradition (the Spirituality of St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross is very Orthodox in it's mysticism)  And yes, no Orthodox can be without a devotion to the MOther of God.  To the comment above "Mary?  Why isn't Christ enough?"  Well, The Blessed MOther of God always points to Christ. 
   I would caution that the use of the Scapular by an Orthodox "Might" be considered a Latinization.  Have you discussed this with your priest??

    Peace in Carmel,
         Brian Seraphim
Logged

For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like!-

                            Maggie Smith "The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie"
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2005, 04:37:44 PM »


 I would caution that the use of the Scapular by an Orthodox "Might" be considered a Latinization. Have you discussed this with your priest??

Father Michael is a convert from Roman Catholicism and he hasn't said anything about me wearing the scapular at church. I should consider discussing it though.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Twenty Nine
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 187



« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2005, 05:02:17 PM »

Quote
whoever wears the scapular until death, will be preserved from hell".

Matthew,

I would not wear the scapular for several reasons. If the Most Holy Theotokos thought that the wearing of this scapular was so important, she would have appeared to Orthodox Christians and told them about it. Also, I don't believe that the Theotokos appeared to Simon Stock. Our preservation from hell/our salvation cannot be brought about by "magic charms".

Our path to salvation consists in our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, love of Him and our neighbor, our participation in the mysteries of the Church and fidelity to Her teachings, and our struggles with fasting and prayer. The Blessed Theotokos lived this life and her life is the example par excellence. The whole idea of the scapular and the preservation from hell is far from Orthodoxy.

Quote
The authentic list of indulgences, privileges, and indults of the Scapular Confraternity of Mount Carmel was last approved on 4 July, 1908, by the Congregation of Indulgences.

There is no need to even comment on this quote.

Gregory (former Roman Catholic who used to wear this scapular)
Logged

Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. - Philippians 4:8
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2005, 05:09:09 PM »


 Our preservation from hell/our salvation cannot be brought about by "magic charms".


"Whoever, therefore, even though he be now a sinner, wears the badge of the Mother of God throughout life as her faithful servant, not presumptuously relying on the scapular as on a miraculous amulet, but trustfully confiding in the power and goodness of Mary, may securely hope that Mary will through her powerful and motherly intercession procure for him all the necessary graces for true conversion and for perseverance in good."

Furthermore, there is no need to believe in indulgences in order to wear the scapular.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2005, 05:10:09 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Twenty Nine
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 187



« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2005, 05:19:07 PM »

Dear Michael,

Quote
"Whoever, therefore, even though he be now a sinner, wears the badge of the Mother of God throughout life as her faithful servant, not presumptuously relying on the scapular as on a miraculous amulet, but trustfully confiding in the power and goodness of Mary, may securely hope that Mary will through her powerful and motherly intercession procure for him all the necessary graces for true conversion and for perseverance in good."

But this doesn't make sense. It is akin to me saying that if I wear my Orthodox cross until death, I will be preserved from hell. Also, this statement implies that Grace is created and that the Theotokos can "procure" Grace.

Gregory
Logged

Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. - Philippians 4:8
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2005, 05:23:19 PM »

Dear Michael,



 Also, this statement implies that Grace is created and that the Theotokos can "procure" Grace.

Gregory

Mary can pray for us that we may die in a state of grace.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2005, 05:46:21 PM »

Mary can pray for us that we may die in a state of grace.

Mary can pray for us, but if we don't live a Godly and Christian life, she cannot SAVE us.

IMO, and as all here know, this is a very divisive subject for me, the quotes you are posting almost raise her to the level of co-redemptionist.

It is against scripture and Orthodox Tradition that some sort of talisman can shield us from our sins. We will most certainly ONLY be judged based on how we lived our lives.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2005, 05:49:23 PM by TomS » Logged
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2005, 06:29:34 PM »

Mary can pray for us, but if we don't live a Godly and Christian life, she cannot SAVE us.

IMO, and as all here know, this is a very divisive subject for me, the quotes you are posting almost raise her to the level of co-redemptionist.

It is against scripture and Orthodox Tradition that some sort of talisman can shield us from our sins. We will most certainly ONLY be judged based on how we lived our lives.

Amen, Tom.
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2005, 06:48:42 PM »



Mary can pray for us, but if we don't live a Godly and Christian life, she cannot SAVE us.


One can only receive the benefits of the scapular if he believes in Christ as Lord, Savior and God.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 15,368


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2005, 06:55:59 PM »

But this doesn't make sense. It is akin to me saying that if I wear my Orthodox cross until death, I will be preserved from hell. Also, this statement implies that Grace is created and that the Theotokos can "procure" Grace.

I don't think Catholics would put it just like this.  Clearly, it can't be just the Scapular that saves one from hell, since a medal can and often is substituted for the actual Scapular, with no change in privileges.  When one is "enrolled" in it, and that's the way these promises come into effect, one also undertakes more prayer (technically the Little Office, although the Rosary can be substituted) and fasting (Wednesday and Saturday), these things presupposing worthy reception of the Sacraments as well.  In other words, there's a lot more to it than simply wearing a couple of brown tags or a medal.  At least this is how RC's have explained it to me.

Do I think Orthodox should be doing this?  If there is no doctrinal problem with it, and it brings you closer to God through our Holy Mother, then I don't see a reason why not.  I used to pray the Rosary, but now I don't, although I don't really see anything wrong with it.  I suspect if one immerses himself enough in the Orthodox tradition, one will not feel a need for these things anymore--at least that is my experience.  But if there's nothing wrong with it, and it only helps to bring a person closer to God, then I see no reason to reject it just because it's "Western".  Of course, if one can make the case that there is something wrong with it, then I think that needs to at least be considered before proceeding further.     
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2005, 07:39:58 PM »

Do I think Orthodox should be doing this? If there is no doctrinal problem with it, and it brings you closer to God through our Holy Mother, then I don't see a reason why not.  

Exactly


.  I suspect if one immerses himself enough in the Orthodox tradition, one will not feel a need for these things anymore--at least that is my experience. 

I will never abandon the Catholic traditions that I love the most. I still read Catholic books, study Catholic mysticism, etc.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2005, 07:41:57 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,440


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2005, 07:49:34 PM »

Matthew,

Then why did you become Orthodox? Orthodoxy has a fulness of its own devotions and practices. I have found it is not possible to effectively live in two traditions at once.

Anastasios
Logged

Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2005, 10:45:24 PM »

Matthew,

Then why did you become Orthodox? Orthodoxy has a fulness of its own devotions and practices. I have found it is not possible to effectively live in two traditions at once.

Anastasios

Have you read anything by Therese of Avignon or John of the Cross? There are works of Catholic mystics and theologians that Christians of all denominations should embrace, especially Orthodox Christians.

I love Orthodoxy for the right worship, for the beauty and poetry of the liturgy and because that is what I have learned from experience to be the best way I can sing praise to God. However, my love for the liturgy does not prevent me from enjoying a book by Thomas Aquinus or John Paul II.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2005, 10:50:57 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,440


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2005, 10:50:40 PM »



Have you read anything by Therese of Avignon or John of the Cross? There are works of Catholic mystics and theologians that Christians of all denominations should embrace, especially Orthodox Christians.

I love Orthodoxy for the right worship, for the beauty and poetry of the liturgy and because that is what I have learned from experience to be the best way I can sing praise to God. However, I that love for the liturgy does not prevent me from reading a book by Thomas Aquinus or John Paul II.

Yes, I actually have read those. But they don't compare to the Philokalia.  I sometimes read Roman Catholic authors myself but not often and I usually don't find anything that Orthodox wouldn't have already said.

Anastasios
Logged

Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
bripat22
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 182


Slava Tebie, Boze nas! Slava Tebie


« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2005, 01:00:43 AM »



Yes, I actually have read those. But they don't compare to the Philokalia. I sometimes read Roman Catholic authors myself but not often and I usually don't find anything that Orthodox wouldn't have already said.

Anastasios

 Not to offend, but I find that a bit too narrow.  Mystics of the Latin traditio n such as St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross are timeless and reach across the traditions of East and West.  I think Father Lev Gillet once commented on how many of the saints of the Western Church are complemented by those of the Eastern CHurch and vice-versa.  We must not be triumphalistic about sanctity (not that Anastasios was doing that)  I just think there is much to learn from the Saints of both Eastern and Western traditions.  "Our divisions do not rise to Heaven"
Logged

For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like!-

                            Maggie Smith "The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie"
choirfiend
ManIsChristian=iRnotgrEek.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 903

Rachael weeping for her children, for they are not


« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2005, 01:36:11 AM »

The whole "state of grace" thing isn't really Orthodox teaching either. Classifications of sins is not an Orthodox practice....It just sounds like you've got a lot of Catholic ideas and practices still bouncing around in your head.
Logged

Qui cantat, bis orat
Byzantine Christian
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 96


« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2005, 02:32:00 AM »

"I am an Orthodox convert from Catholicism who still believes in the power of the Brown Scapular"

When I was a Catholic I used to wear the brown scapular too, but when you convert to Orthodoxy, you
have to realize that the brown scapular is worthless. Its a "sacramental" of a Heretical church, is just as useless
as Catholic "Sacraments". Thats what I was taught by my priest when I asked him about my Catholic Sacramentals, and what
I should do with them prior to my conversion to Holy Orthodoxy.

Nektarios
Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2005, 02:57:00 AM »

The whole "state of grace" thing isn't really Orthodox teaching either. Classifications of sins is not an Orthodox practice....It just sounds like you've got a lot of Catholic ideas and practices still bouncing around in your head.

What I believe about the scapular in not necessarily the same as what Catholics believe.

I believe that by wearing the blessed scapular, Mary will be in constant intercession for my behalf. She will pray that my faith may stay strong and that my hands may carry out the work of the Lord. She will pray that when my time to die comes, that it will not be of too much suffering and that my faith in Christ will not be broken so that I may enter heaven.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 02:57:56 AM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2005, 03:00:31 AM »

"I am an Orthodox convert from Catholicism who still believes in the power of the Brown Scapular"

When I was a Catholic I used to wear the brown scapular too, but when you convert to Orthodoxy, you
have to realize that the brown scapular is worthless.
Nektarios

If Mary really appeared to Simon Stock and promised that whoever wears it will not suffer eternal fire, then it is not worthless and can be rather benificial for both Catholic and Orthodox Christians who believe in the intercession of Mary.

And to refer to the Catholic Church as heretic is not very productive. Rome no longer sees us as heretical so perhaps we should return the favor as fellow Apostolic Christians.

The Catholic Church is misguided on certian things but I do not have the right to call them heretics.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 03:02:47 AM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Marjorie
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 167


OC.net


WWW
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2005, 06:51:17 AM »

In my own (rather worthless) opinion, I see no problem with wearing the scapular as long as you have an Orthodox understanding of it. The Spirit blows where it wills.

Marjorie
Logged

"The land of God is wide and large enough to provide room for everyone if we are humans. If we act like brutes, then there will not be enough room even if there are only four of us."

- His Holiness Patriarch +PAVLE of Serbia
Donna Rose
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 937


« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2005, 08:49:45 AM »

Quote
What I believe about the scapular in not necessarily the same as what Catholics believe.

I believe that by wearing the blessed scapular, Mary will be in constant intercession for my behalf. She will pray that my faith may stay strong and that my hands may carry out the work of the Lord. She will pray that when my time to die comes, that it will not be of too much suffering and that my faith in Christ will not be broken so that I may enter heaven.

i think this type of mentality can be dangerous, not so much your "version" of what the scapular does for you, but the very act of taking the scapular to have a spiritual significance that the Church does not instruct us about...it seems equivalent to if i were to take a charm of a secular nature and imbue it with a spiritual significance that the Church has not instructed me is there...it comes too close to "worshipping idols," as if what the Church has unequivocally provided for me is not enough. i do not see why using a prayer rope to pray "Most Holy Theotokos, Save us!" will not achieve the same thing you describe above, or praying the Akathist to the Theotokos, or any of the other (what must be) thousands of ways the Orthodox Church teaches us to pray that the Theotokos intercede on our behalf.

just my thoughts...

and for the record, i too still own a brown scapular from my RC days, but it is kept away in a collection of other items of sentimental value from my childhood (since it was given to me at my RC first holy communion)...that's sentimental value, not spiritual.
Logged

hmmmm...
prodromos
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,463

Sydney, Australia


« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2005, 09:10:55 AM »


And to refer to the Catholic Church as heretic is not very productive. Rome no longer sees us as heretical so perhaps we should return the favor as fellow Apostolic Christians.


It is difficult for Rome to call Orthodox heretics because the Orthodox church has not added anything to the faith and even Rome recognises this. So from the perspective of Rome, Orthodox are not in heresy.
From the Orthodox viewpoint however, we cannot say the same thing about Rome.

John.
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 15,368


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2005, 01:51:12 PM »

If Mary really appeared to Simon Stock and promised that whoever wears it will not suffer eternal fire, then it is not worthless and can be rather benificial for both Catholic and Orthodox Christians who believe in the intercession of Mary.

Yeah, but then you have to demonstrate that She really did appear to Simon Stock.  Even the RCC won't definitively say She did, they'll just say that you are permitted to believe that it was so. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2005, 01:55:39 PM »

If Mary really appeared to Simon Stock and promised that whoever wears it will not suffer eternal fire...

Dude, she DIDN'T!

Only CHRIST can save. Mary CANNOT save us!

You are still Roman Catholic whether you want to admit it or not.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 01:57:01 PM by TomS » Logged
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2005, 02:31:45 PM »

Matthew,

Talk to your priest about it and listen to what he says.  Do what he says.  Don't look for direction here.  I don't think that's the proper role of this forum. 
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2005, 03:18:59 PM »

Matthew,

Talk to your priest about it and listen to what he says. Do what he says. Don't look for direction here. I don't think that's the proper role of this forum.

Absolutely.
Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2005, 03:25:15 PM »



i think this type of mentality can be dangerous, not so much your "version" of what the scapular does for you, but the very act of taking the scapular to have a spiritual significance that the Church does not instruct us about

What I mean is that I do not hold any Catholic beliefs on the scapular that go in contradiction with the Orthodox faith.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Donna Rose
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 937


« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2005, 08:13:25 PM »

Quote
What I mean is that I do not hold any Catholic beliefs on the scapular that go in contradiction with the Orthodox faith.

But, unless i am mistaken, the scapular is a product of Roman Catholicism, not Orthodoxy, and as such is not a product of Christ's Church here on earth, which is why ascribing it a value and function that the Church does not instruct us about can be dangerous. again, i dont see why you can't just take up one of the many ways of devotion to the Theotokos that your Church provides for you - if you are unsure of what these are, only ask and i am sure you will get a plethora of answers, both here and with your priest. 
Logged

hmmmm...
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2005, 08:24:32 PM »



But, unless i am mistaken, the scapular is a product of Roman Catholicism, not Orthodoxy, and as such is not a product of Christ's Church here on earth

I believe that Orthodoxy and Catholicism both belong to Christ's Church here on earth but that there are certian problems within Catholicism that prevent us from having communion with each other.

I wore the scapular a few times when I was in elementary school but I did not become serious about wearing it until after I converted to Orthodoxy.

What harm is there in wearing the scapular?

Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Donna Rose
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 937


« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2005, 08:38:16 PM »

Quote
I believe that Orthodoxy and Catholicism both belong to Christ's Church here on earth but that there are certian problems within Catholicism that prevent us from having communion with each other.

You have the right to believe what you want, but ultimately your Church believes otherwise, since Christ's Church here on earth is indivisible (see the Creed: "In one, holy, catholic and apostalic Church."), and so the Church is either the Roman Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church, it cannot be both.
Logged

hmmmm...
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2005, 10:16:31 PM »



You have the right to believe what you want, but ultimately your Church believes otherwise...

Then why do we belong to the National Council of Churches? Is this not for the sake of ecumenism between denominations?

ecumenicism
n : (Christianity) the doctrine of the ecumenical movement that promotes cooperation and better understanding among different religious denominations: aimed at universal Christian unity


« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 10:17:09 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Donna Rose
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 937


« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2005, 10:48:07 PM »



Then why do we belong to the National Council of Churches? Is this not for the sake of ecumenism between denominations?

ecumenicism
n : (Christianity) the doctrine of the ecumenical movement that promotes cooperation and better understanding among different religious denominations: aimed at universal Christian unity




What you write above, and what you stated earlier:

Quote
I believe that Orthodoxy and Catholicism both belong to Christ's Church here on earth but that there are certian problems within Catholicism that prevent us from having communion with each other.

do not say the same thing. The Orthodox Church can participate in ecumenical dialogue as you define it, while also asserting that She is Christ's undivided Church, which means no other "denomination," as the definition puts it, can be as well (if Christ's Church is in fact undivided).
Logged

hmmmm...
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,440


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2005, 10:51:07 PM »



Then why do we belong to the National Council of Churches? Is this not for the sake of ecumenism between denominations?

ecumenicism
n : (Christianity) the doctrine of the ecumenical movement that promotes cooperation and better understanding among different religious denominations: aimed at universal Christian unity




The official reason for the participation in ecumenism is to convert others to Orthodoxy.

Anastasios
Logged

Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Marjorie
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 167


OC.net


WWW
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2005, 10:52:33 PM »

The only goal of ecumenism should be evangelism-- bringing the Truth of Christ's Church to those who have fallen away. (Although it's also good to learn where others are coming from and so on.) Unfortunately this is not always so.

Yet I do not see this as a reason why should shun spiritual expressions of any non-Orthodox peoples. Paul quoted both the Old Testament and pagan philosophers; he just brought it into the understanding of the Church, baptized the ideas into the Church (so to speak, and to paraphrase from a conversation with Donna Rose a few days ago Smiley.)

Marjorie
« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 10:53:10 PM by Marjorie » Logged

"The land of God is wide and large enough to provide room for everyone if we are humans. If we act like brutes, then there will not be enough room even if there are only four of us."

- His Holiness Patriarch +PAVLE of Serbia
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,440


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2005, 10:54:13 PM »

Matthew,

The writings of Fr Georges Florovsky (Orthodox) are indicative. I suggest you track them down from interlibrary loan if need be. A paraphrase from one of his writings: "For us, Church unity is universal conversion to Orthodoxy."

Anastasios
Logged

Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2005, 10:56:04 PM »

The Orthodox Church can participate in ecumenical dialogue as you define it, while also asserting that She is Christ's undivided Church, which means no other "denomination," as the definition puts it, can be as well (if Christ's Church is in fact undivided).

I believe that the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches are united in the Spirit even though we should remain autonomos.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2005, 10:58:25 PM »

Paul quoted both the Old Testament and pagan philosophers; he just brought it into the understanding of the Church, baptized the ideas into the Church (so to speak, and to paraphrase from a conversation with Donna Rose a few days ago Smiley.)


I wouldn't necessarily equate Protestantism and Catholicism with paganism. Smiley
« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 10:59:12 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2005, 11:56:17 PM »

Quote
I wore the scapular a few times when I was in elementary school but I did not become serious about wearing it until after I converted to Orthodoxy.

That's interesting....

I wonder what it is about your conversion to Orthodoxy that you would suddenly feel the need to don Roman Catholic sacramentals...?

Quote
What harm is there in wearing the scapular?

I would wonder why you'd care to wear it for practical reasons, such as (God forbid) you needed to be hospitalized and since you were wearing the scapular you would be confused for a Roman Catholic. Receiving the sacraments from a Roman Catholic priest unless it's a deathbed situation is frowned upon by both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Quote
I believe that the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches are united in the Spirit even though we should remain autonomos.

Exactly. These are your beliefs, not those of the Catholic or Orthodox Churches. You have just decided to pick and choose what you like from either Church's respective traditions, making your own belief system which is either semi-Catholic or quasi-Orthodox, and being in the middle of the road is not the best place to be.

In Christ,
Aaron
Logged
Marjorie
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 167


OC.net


WWW
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2005, 12:02:49 AM »



I wouldn't necessarily equate Protestantism and Catholicism with paganism.  Smiley

Well no, but my point was to discuss traditions outside the Church.

Marjorie
Logged

"The land of God is wide and large enough to provide room for everyone if we are humans. If we act like brutes, then there will not be enough room even if there are only four of us."

- His Holiness Patriarch +PAVLE of Serbia
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2005, 12:14:09 AM »


I wonder what it is about your conversion to Orthodoxy that you would suddenly feel the need to don Roman Catholic sacramentals...?


I looked in to the history and doctrine of the scapular.


 Receiving the sacraments from a Roman Catholic priest unless it's a deathbed situation is frowned upon by both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.


There are some Roman Catholic priests who I would no honored to receive last rites from.


Exactly. These are your beliefs, not those of the Catholic or Orthodox Churches. You have just decided to pick and choose what you like from either Church's respective traditions, making your own belief system which is either semi-Catholic or quasi-Orthodox, and being in the middle of the road is not the best place to be.


I believe you are misunderstanding my point.

1 Corinthians 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."


Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2005, 12:34:04 AM »

Quote
There are some Roman Catholic priests who I would no honored to receive last rites from.

That may be, but I only used the situation to show how your wearing a scapular could cause confusion to those who do not know you, or your own personal belief system and would assume you to be a Roman Catholic.

Quote
I believe you are misunderstanding my point.

I am trying to figure out what exactly your point may be in all of this, would you care to let everyone know?

In Christ,
Aaron
Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2005, 12:47:38 AM »


I am trying to figure out what exactly your point may be in all of this, would you care to let everyone know?


My point is what I have learned at the Malankara Church and from Father Michael. There is enough that Orthodox and Catholic Christians share in common that we should be able to have peace, understanding, tolerance, and even fellowship with each other.
However, there are certain problems within the Roman Church that prevent us from uniting under the authority of Rome and neither should we have to unite under the authority of Rome. It is good that we have our autonomy because it protects our faith from corruption.
This necessary separation of jurisiction does not prevent Catholics from receiving communion in our Church.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2005, 12:53:20 AM »

Quote
This necessary separation of jurisiction does not prevent Catholics from receiving communion in our Church.

It should, no matter how much that may irk you, it's the truth.

As Mor has stated previously, how things are practiced in your individual church is not the way things are practiced in the Church as a whole.

In Christ,
Aaron
Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2005, 12:58:24 AM »


As Mor has stated previously, how things are practiced in your individual church is not the way things are practiced in the Church as a whole.


Mor said that he needs to look in to it.

I know of one occasion when Bishop Makarios made an exception to even allow a Protestant to receive the Eucharist during Holy Qurbana.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2005, 01:03:24 AM »

Quote
I know of one occasion when Bishop Makarios made an exception to even allow a Protestant to receive the Eucharist during Holy Qurbana.

Lord have mercy!

 :bang:  :scratch:
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,440


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2005, 01:07:00 AM »



Mor said that he needs to look in to it.

I know of one occasion when Bishop Makarios made an exception to even allow a Protestant to receive the Eucharist during Holy Qurbana.

That is really disturbing. Protestants do not have the same faith as Orthodox.

Anastasios
Logged

Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2005, 01:17:08 AM »



That is really disturbing. Protestants do not have the same faith as Orthodox.

Anastasios

Some priests felt the same way and scoffed. However, as far as I know, he believed that it wouldn't hurt to make the exception for the man and that perhaps God wanted to work through the Protestant by allowing him to receive the Eucharist.
This is not at all the norm, just a particular exception.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: refuse
Posts: 29,322



« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2005, 01:24:49 AM »

Matthew, dude, you made 53 posts yesterday, and have made 4 already today in the first 20 minutes. Take a breather, go ahead, we'll be here when you get back. :coffee:
Logged

.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,440


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2005, 01:26:50 AM »

Matthew, dude, you made 53 posts yesterday, and have made 4 already today in the first 20 minutes. Take a breather, go ahead, we'll be here when you get back. :coffee:

Nah, keep posting Matthew, we like large volume posters like you! Smiley

Anastasios
Logged

Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2005, 01:32:23 AM »

If we are to continue with this discussion, I would highly prefer for it to be related to the Brown Scapular.

1. Can Orthodox Christians wear the Scapular and believe the history surrounding it? If not, why not?

2. Is there anything in particular about the Scapular that contradicts Orthodox doctrine? If I knew of any gross contradiction or evil surrounding the scapular, I would discontinue wearing it.

3. Am I causing myself any harm by wearing it?

4. Wearing the Scapular reminds me of my commitment to Mary and her Son, and the need to be in frequent prayer for her intercession. How is that wrong?

I humbly await a response.

Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
choirfiend
ManIsChristian=iRnotgrEek.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 903

Rachael weeping for her children, for they are not


« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2005, 02:02:28 AM »

wait for it....wait for it.....



Ask your priest or spiritual director as it relates to you.


As it relates to all Orthodox Christians; My opinion is that while not all practices of other traditions are bad or doctrinally suspect, Orthodoxy contains all you need, and spiritual disciplines or vestiges of traditions from other groups should generally not be practiced since there is nothing in them that is not realized fully in the good and doctrinally correct traditions of Orthodoxy.
Logged

Qui cantat, bis orat
Tallitot
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,573



WWW
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2005, 02:22:53 AM »

I know of one occasion when Bishop Makarios made an exception to even allow a Protestant to receive the Eucharist during Holy Qurbana.

Just out of curiosity of what denomination was the person? I've heard of some OO clergy Communicating Anglicans and Lutherans. Thier understanding of the Eucharist is closer to Orthodoxy then say a Baptist or a Presby.
Logged

Proverbs 22:7
Tallitot
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,573



WWW
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2005, 02:33:49 AM »

Matthew, dude, you made 53 posts yesterday, and have made 4 already today in the first 20 minutes. Take a breather, go ahead, we'll be here when you get back. :coffee:

Really...I'm always posting at these wierd hours 'cuz I work nights...it always amazes me how many folks are up in the wee hours :a:
Logged

Proverbs 22:7
prodromos
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,463

Sydney, Australia


« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2005, 03:03:18 AM »


Really...I'm always posting at these wierd hours 'cuz I work nights...it always amazes me how many folks are up in the wee hours :a:

The wee hours happen to be daylight hours in the part of the world I inhabit Cheesy
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: refuse
Posts: 29,322



« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2005, 05:34:05 AM »

Quote
I'm always posting at these wierd hours 'cuz I work nights

Same for my wife and I Smiley
Logged

.
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2005, 07:38:57 AM »

1. Can Orthodox Christians wear the Scapular and believe the history surrounding it? If not, why not?

2. Is there anything in particular about the Scapular that contradicts Orthodox doctrine? If I knew of any gross contradiction or evil surrounding the scapular, I would discontinue wearing it.

3. Am I causing myself any harm by wearing it?

4. Wearing the Scapular reminds me of my commitment to Mary and her Son, and the need to be in frequent prayer for her intercession. How is that wrong?

If I could,

These have been answered by folks on this forum rather thoroughly...I'm not sure what more you're looking for by asking them again (unless it's an actual validation for your practices, which may not be forthcoming and...well...why woluld you need or want any of our validations anyway?).  The common thought here seems to be:

  • The scapular is a RC tradition and, while it may NOT cause you any harm, you need to "stick to your own kind" for safer spiritual medicine
  • You need to take this up with a priest (or more than one, if possible) instead of spending your efforts (53 posts?!?) here.  Not that we don't appreciate your being here, but still!   Grin
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2005, 09:55:57 AM »

... You have just decided to pick and choose what you like from either Church's respective traditions, making your own belief system .... being in the middle of the road is not the best place to be.

I can vouch for this!
Logged
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2005, 09:59:16 AM »

[I wonder what it is about your conversion to Orthodoxy that you would suddenly feel the need to don Roman Catholic sacramentals...?]

I looked in to the history and doctrine of the scapular.

So, you convert to Orthodoxy and decide that God wants you to utilize a Roman Catholic talisman?

That makes absolutely NO SENSE!

That is really disturbing. Protestants do not have the same faith as Orthodox.

Yeah. I have to agree with this

Even as pathetic as I am within the Faith -- I still would not accept communion in a Protestant church.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2005, 10:06:17 AM by TomS » Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2005, 01:13:22 PM »



Just out of curiosity of what denomination was the person? I've heard of some OO clergy Communicating Anglicans and Lutherans. Thier understanding of the Eucharist is closer to Orthodoxy then say a Baptist or a Presby.

He was waiving his hands in the air and speaking in tongs so maybe he was Pentacostal. There must have been some higher reason why Bishop Makarios made the exception for the man to receive Communion.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2005, 01:15:31 PM »

He was waiving his hands in the air and speaking in tongs so maybe he was Pentacostal. There must have been some higher reason why Bishop Makarios made the exception for the man to receive Communion.

And this was TOLERATED during the Liturgy???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #65 on: January 13, 2005, 01:19:46 PM »



And this was TOLERATED during the Liturgy???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Christ is Christ.  Smiley

I do not know about all the circumstances surrounding this particular celebration of Holy Qurbana. Again, there must have been some good reason why Bishop Makarios made the exception for this man.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Twenty Nine
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 187



« Reply #66 on: January 13, 2005, 01:20:38 PM »

He was waiving his hands in the air and speaking in tongs so maybe he was Pentacostal. There must have been some higher reason why Bishop Makarios made the exception for the man to receive Communion.

This is just getting stranger and stranger...

Gregory
Logged

Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. - Philippians 4:8
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #67 on: January 13, 2005, 01:54:57 PM »

This is just getting stranger and stranger...

Yeah - this is even too weird for me! I'm OUTA this thread.

(stop applauding!) Grin
« Last Edit: January 13, 2005, 02:00:46 PM by TomS » Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,440


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #68 on: January 13, 2005, 02:08:10 PM »



Christ is Christ. Smiley

I do not know about all the circumstances surrounding this particular celebration of Holy Qurbana. Again, there must have been some good reason why Bishop Makarios made the exception for this man.

No, Christ is not Christ. Christ is known through the Church. People outside the Church do not know Christ the way people inside the Church do. Now God can make exceptions for anyone, but his exceptions do not translate into our affirming separated people as part of the body. We are to love everyone but welcome them into the Church of Christ, not bless their separation by communing them "as is."

Anastasios
Logged

Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #69 on: January 13, 2005, 02:28:11 PM »



No, Christ is not Christ. Christ is known through the Church. People outside the Church do not know Christ the way people inside the Church do. Now God can make exceptions for anyone, but his exceptions do not translate into our affirming separated people as part of the body. We are to love everyone but welcome them into the Church of Christ, not bless their separation by communing them "as is."

Anastasios

"If one who lives in the midst of Christendom goes up to the house of God, the house of the true God, with the true conception of God in his knowledge, and prays, but prays in false spirit; and one who lives in an idolatrous community prays with the entire passion of the infinite, although his eyes rest upon the image of an idol: where is there the most truth? The one prays in truth to God though he worships an idol; the other prays falsely to the true God, and hence worships in fact an idol."
Soren Kierkegaard
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Tallitot
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,573



WWW
« Reply #70 on: January 13, 2005, 02:44:31 PM »

It seems to me that allowing someone to receive who has not prepared themselves by fasting, self examination and Confession isn't doing them any favor, especially if that person may not discern the Mystery as the Body & Blood of Christ, but think of it as a symbol.
Logged

Proverbs 22:7
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #71 on: January 13, 2005, 03:00:09 PM »

Man, this is troll city.
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,440


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #72 on: January 13, 2005, 03:05:34 PM »



"If one who lives in the midst of Christendom goes up to the house of God, the house of the true God, with the true conception of God in his knowledge, and prays, but prays in false spirit; and one who lives in an idolatrous community prays with the entire passion of the infinite, although his eyes rest upon the image of an idol: where is there the most truth? The one prays in truth to God though he worships an idol; the other prays falsely to the true God, and hence worships in fact an idol."
Soren Kierkegaard

Who is this Kierkegaard? Is it the philosopher? Last time I checked, he was not a canonized saint and Father of the Orthodox Church.  I will trust those who were spiritually illumined over those who are just guessing.

Anastasios
Logged

Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Tallitot
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,573



WWW
« Reply #73 on: January 13, 2005, 03:08:21 PM »

The desert fathers spoke great wisdom with a much fewer words than Soren Kierkegaard.
Logged

Proverbs 22:7
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #74 on: January 13, 2005, 03:33:54 PM »



Who is this Kierkegaard? Is it the philosopher?

He was a devout Christian and the founder of existentialism. Regardless of the authority, the words are still important enough for us to consider.

I do not believe, and neither does Bishop Makorios, that a Protestant should be allowed to partake in the Divine Mysteries. However, given that all I know of this incidence is hearsay, and I do not know the particular reason why he allowed for this exception, it would be safe and respectful to assume that he did so for a good reason.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #75 on: January 13, 2005, 03:47:54 PM »

He was waiving his hands in the air and speaking in tongs so maybe he was Pentacostal.



Oh, this is just too much....
« Last Edit: January 13, 2005, 03:48:57 PM by Pedro » Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #76 on: January 13, 2005, 03:52:34 PM »





Oh, this is just too much....
I do not believe, and neither does Bishop Makorios, that a Protestant should be allowed to partake in the Divine Mysteries. However, given that all I know of this incidence is hearsay, and I do not know the particular reason why he allowed for this exception, it would be safe and respectful to assume that he did so for a good reason.

Regardless how we feel about this incident, it is beside the point if this discussion.

I will consult Father Michael on the rightness of wearing the Brown Scapular and I thank you for that advice.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2005, 03:54:16 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #77 on: January 13, 2005, 04:03:15 PM »

Regardless how we feel about this incident, it is beside the point if this discussion.

Well, I'm not referring to the "incident" -- it's not my place to correct the bishop, as he may have had his reasons -- but for you to seemingly condone this with a "Christ is Christ" attitude...that's what I "exploded" about.
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #78 on: January 13, 2005, 04:16:41 PM »

but for you to seemingly condone this with a "Christ is Christ" attitude

That statement does not necessarily reflect the stance of my Church but it is to an extant what I have learned from personal experience.

For example, I would have no reason to doubt the possibility that Billy Graham is just as holy as a Christian as Bishop Makarios.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2005, 04:18:43 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
choirfiend
ManIsChristian=iRnotgrEek.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 903

Rachael weeping for her children, for they are not


« Reply #79 on: January 13, 2005, 05:27:23 PM »

Let's all just hold hands and sing a song about Buddy Jesus and call it a day.
Logged

Qui cantat, bis orat
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #80 on: January 13, 2005, 05:31:04 PM »

Let's all just hold hands and sing a song about Buddy Jesus and call it a day.

Billy Graham has preached the Gospel to more people than any single man in the history of the faith. His ministry is an asset and a blessing to Christianity and the world.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
PhosZoe
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 346

One foot in the cradle


« Reply #81 on: January 13, 2005, 05:52:58 PM »

Let's all just hold hands and sing a song about Buddy Jesus and call it a day.

*snickers*  Maybe I'll go snuggle my Jesus comes to play dolll too.

 

http://thegodsquad.com/cgi-local/shop.pl/page=products.htm


 

Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 15,368


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #82 on: January 13, 2005, 09:56:09 PM »



He was waiving his hands in the air and speaking in tongs so maybe he was Pentacostal. There must have been some higher reason why Bishop Makarios made the exception for the man to receive Communion.

If this is true, it is an abomination.  From what I read recently (can't say if it's actually true), Pentecostals don't even believe in the Trinity as we do.  I've NEVER heard of any of our bishops taking such a liberty with economy...this is outrageous.  I can't think of any circumstances which would justify such a thing. 

Matthew, who is the bishop of our American Diocese?     
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Louisa
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 5



« Reply #83 on: January 13, 2005, 10:58:59 PM »

Most all pentecostals believe in the Trinity.  Only one I know of that does not is called the United Pentecostal Church.  The latter believe in 'Jesus only' basing most of it on Acts where it says to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus...........

But Assembly of God pentecostals do believe in the Trinity.

peace
louise
Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #84 on: January 14, 2005, 02:29:33 AM »

If this is true, it is an abomination.

What right do we have to accuse our own bishop of abomination?

Pentecostals don't even believe in the Trinity as we do.

I went out on a limb by saying he was maybe Pentecostal. I only said this because he was waving his hands in the air while speaking in tongs.

I've NEVER heard of any of our bishops taking such a liberty with economy...this is outrageous.

Seemingly outrageous circumstances sometimes call for seemingly outrageous exceptions.

I can't think of any circumstances which would justify such a thing.

I can think of a few. Perhaps Bishop Makorios felt in his heart that the Protestant man's gift of speaking in tongs served as a sign that for that particular circumstance, for that particular celebration of the Divine Liturgy, God wanted him to receive the Holy Mysteries.

Matthew, who is the bishop of our American Diocese?  

www.malankara.org

« Last Edit: January 14, 2005, 04:01:25 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #85 on: January 14, 2005, 04:45:59 AM »

Quote
It seems to me that allowing someone to receive who has not prepared themselves by fasting, self examination and Confession isn't doing them any favor, especially if that person may not discern the Mystery as the Body & Blood of Christ, but think of it as a symbol.

Exactly!

"Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's[f] body. For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep." 1 Corinthians 11:27-30

Quote
This is just getting stranger and stranger...

You can say that twice and mean it!  Shocked

Quote
Man, this is troll city.

That is what I have been thinking....   Roll Eyes
Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #86 on: January 14, 2005, 04:51:21 AM »

Seemingly outrageous circumstances sometimes call for seemingly outrageous exceptions.

Since we have pretty much resolved the topic of this thread (that I should talk with my priest about this), I see no necessity in continuing this thread.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2005, 05:17:09 AM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #87 on: January 14, 2005, 05:10:54 AM »

Quote
I see no necessity in continuing this thread.

I was just posting my $0.02 worth since I hadn't been online during the day to see what new goings-on had transpired.

Sorry.  :-";"xx
Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #88 on: January 14, 2005, 05:16:09 AM »

Sorry. :-

There is no reason to apologize. Thank you for caring and may peace be upon you and your spirit.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Twenty Nine
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of America
Posts: 187



« Reply #89 on: January 14, 2005, 09:25:49 AM »

Billy Graham has preached the Gospel to more people than any single man in the history of the faith. His ministry is an asset and a blessing to Christianity and the world.

Billy Graham is teaching a false gospel. Are you just trying to be as ridiculous as possible?

Gregory
Logged

Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. - Philippians 4:8
Tallitot
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jewish
Jurisdiction: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
Posts: 2,573



WWW
« Reply #90 on: January 14, 2005, 10:33:01 AM »

Exactly!
"Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's[f] body. For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep." 1 Corinthians 11:27-30

Thanks, that was the quotation I was thinking of but couldn't chapter'n'verse.
Logged

Proverbs 22:7
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 15,368


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #91 on: January 14, 2005, 02:04:30 PM »

What right do we have to accuse our own bishop of abomination?

Communing Protestants is wrong; we don't need to be bishops to know that.  I've seen "high church" Episcopalians denied their request for the Eucharist: why should Pentecostals be any different?   

Quote
I went out on a limb by saying he was maybe Pentecostal. I only said this because he was waving his hands in the air while speaking in tongs.

And you are probably guessing correctly.  Doesn't make anything better. 

Quote
Seemingly uutrageous circumstances sometimes call for seemingly outrageous exceptions.

I am privileged to know Hindus who radiate the love of Christ more than some Christians, including Orthodox Christians, even though they don't believe in Christ.  Can we give them Communion too? 

Quote
I can think of a few. Perhaps Bishop Makorios felt in his heart that the Protestant man's gift of speaking in tongs served as a sign that for that particular circumstance, for that particular celebration of the Divine Liturgy, God wanted him to receive the Holy Mysteries.

Sorry, that's not good enough. 

Quote

With all due respect to him, H.G. Mar Makarios has not been Metropolitan of America for a number of years now ("Senior Metropolitan" = "Metropolitan Emeritus").  Metropolitan of Canada and Europe, yes.  Now, if your parish has been incorporated into the latter diocese, or if the converts he brought into the Church depend directly on him (through some arrangement made by the Holy Synod), then I didn't know about that.  But he is not our bishop in America.   
« Last Edit: January 14, 2005, 02:05:33 PM by Mor Ephrem » Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #92 on: January 14, 2005, 04:02:45 PM »



Billy Graham is teaching a false gospel. Are you just trying to be as ridiculous as possible?

Gregory

False Gospel? How so? When he visited communist Russia and and the hierarchy and members of the Russian Orthodox Church embraced him as a Christian leader, was it for his "false Gospel"?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2005, 04:04:29 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Irish Melkite
Information Mongeror
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite Greek-Catholic
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Newton
Posts: 965


WWW
« Reply #93 on: January 15, 2005, 09:19:16 AM »

With all due respect to him, H.G. Mar Makarios has not been Metropolitan of America for a number of years now ("Senior Metropolitan" = "Metropolitan Emeritus"). Metropolitan of Canada and Europe, yes. Now, if your parish has been incorporated into the latter diocese, or if the converts he brought into the Church depend directly on him (through some arrangement made by the Holy Synod), then I didn't know about that. But he is not our bishop in America.

Phil,

I notice that Matthew's parish is one of the four committed to the Mission Society of Saint Gregorios of India, which I believe His Grace Mar Makarios founded and which I know he brought to the US.  As the Society maintains a website that provides links to other non-Mission parishes but focuses on its own institutions, I wonder if there isn't some sort of canonical distinction accorded to those, whereby they continue under the omophor of His Grace.

Many years,

Neil
Logged

"Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin Rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church."

- Melkite Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), of blessed memory
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 15,368


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #94 on: January 15, 2005, 03:48:37 PM »

Dear Neil,

I am unaware of the Mission Society being a canonical structure independent of the local diocese, but it is possible (hence the "disclaimer" in my earlier post). 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #95 on: January 16, 2005, 04:52:03 PM »

I'm going to stop wearing the scapular as soon as I find a wooden tau cross to wear instead. Wink
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #96 on: January 27, 2005, 05:40:43 PM »

I stopped wearing the scapular and now I wear a Russian Orthodox crucifix that my parents gave me for my birthday. Smiley
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,440


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #97 on: January 27, 2005, 05:55:39 PM »

I stopped wearing the scapular and now I wear a Russian Orthodox crucifix that my parents gave me for my birthday. Smiley

Good. God bless you.
Logged

Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #98 on: January 27, 2005, 05:59:05 PM »

and your spirit.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #99 on: January 28, 2005, 01:09:57 AM »

I am curious about your sudden change of heart, why'd you decide to stop wearing it?

btw - Don't forget to have your new cross blessed!  Smiley

In Christ,
Aaron
Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #100 on: January 28, 2005, 04:00:05 PM »

I am curious about your sudden change of heart, why'd you decide to stop wearing it?

I figured that since I do not hold the same beliefs associated with the scapular as those who originated it, there is no necessity for me to wear it.
Furthermore, I really dig the three-bar cross. Grin
It's not to wear something on my person that distinguishes me as an Orthodox Christian. This is not a pride issue but it is just good for the people of the country be reminded that there is an Orthodox community within it.

btw - Don't forget to have your new cross blessed!

Duly noted.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2005, 04:02:31 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.236 seconds with 128 queries.