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Author Topic: I wear the Brown Scapular  (Read 10470 times) Average Rating: 0
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Matthew777
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« on: January 11, 2005, 04:03:29 PM »

I am an Orthodox convert from Catholicism who still believes in the power of the Brown Scapular and the historicity of Simon Stock's account of his encounter with the Virgin Mary on Mount Carmel. I try to remember to wear my scapular every time I leave the house, even while attending Divine Liturgy.

Do you believe that Orthodox Christians should hold to the merit of the Brown Scapular and should they be able to wear it?

In case anyone is unfamilier with the scapular, here is an article from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"The Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. Also known as the Brown Scapular, this is the best known, most celebrated, and most widespread of the small scapulars. It is spoken of as "the Scapular", and the "feast of the Scapular" is that of Our Lady of Mount Carmel on 16 July. It is probably the oldest scapular and served as the prototype of the others. According to a pious tradition the Blessed Virgin appeared to St. Simon Stock at Cambridge, England, on Sunday, 16 July, 1251. In answer to his appeal for help for his oppressed order, she appeared to him with a scapular in her hand and said: "Take, beloved son this scapular of thy order as a badge of my confraternity and for thee and all Carmelites a special sign of grace; whoever dies in this garment, will not suffer everlasting fire. It is the sign of salvation, a safeguard in dangers, a pledge of peace and of the covenant". This tradition, however, appears in such a precise form for the first time in 1642, when the words of the Blessed Virgin were given in a circular of St. Simon Stock which he is said to have dictated to his companion secretary, and confessor, Peter Swanyngton. Although it has now been sufficiently shown that this testimony cannot be supported by historical documents, still its general content remains a reliable pious tradition; in other words, it is credible that St. Simon Stock was assured in a supernatural manner of the special protection of the Blessed Virgin for his whole order and for all who should wear the Carmelite habit, that the Blessed Virgin also promised him to grant special aid, especially in the hour of death, to those who in holy fidelity wore this habit in her honour throughout life, so that they should be preserved from hell. And, even though there is here no direct reference to the members of the scapular confraternity, indirectly the promise is extended to all who from devotion to the Mother of God should wear her habit or badge, like true Christians, until death, and be thus as it were affiliated to the Carmelite Order.

Heretofore no authenticated testimony has been discovered proving that the small scapular was known from the second half of the thirteenth century and was given to the members of the Confraternity of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. On the contrary there are many reasons for the view that the small scapular, as we now know it and in the form it has certainly had since the sixteenth century, is of much later origin. Zimmerman (Mon. hist. Carmelit.) and Saltet give very reasonable grounds for this view. In any case, the scapular was very widespread in European countries at the end of the sixteenth century, as is evident from "La cronica Carmelitana" of the Carmelite Joseph Falcone (Piacenza, 1595). In 1600 appeared at Palermo the "Giardino Carmelitano" of the Carmelite Egidio Leoindelicato da Sciacca (the approval is dated 1592). Towards the end the author gives after the formulas of benediction for the Fratelli and Sorelle della Compagnia della Madonna del Carmine (who receive the complete habit of the order) the formula for the blessing of the scapular for the Devoti della Compagnia Carmelitana (pp. 239 sqq.). This is the earliest form of benediction for the small scapular with which we are acquainted. It is also noteworthy that the formula for the sisters contains no reference to the scapular, while in that for the brothers there is a special blessing for the scapular.

Nevertheless, even should we admit that the small scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel originated even as late as the beginning of the sixteenth century, yet the above promise, which is designated the first privilege of the Carmelite Scapular, remains unimpaired. For this privilege declares nothing else than that all those who out of true veneration and love for the Blessed Virgin constantly wear the scapular in a spirit of fidelity and confiding faith, after they have been placed by the Church itself with this habit or badge under the special protection of the Mother of God, shall enjoy this special protection in the matter and crisis which most concerns them for time and eternity. Whoever, therefore, even though he be now a sinner, wears the badge of the Mother of God throughout life as her faithful servant, not presumptuously relying on the scapular as on a miraculous amulet, but trustfully confiding in the power and goodness of Mary, may securely hope that Mary will through her powerful and motherly intercession procure for him all the necessary graces for true conversion and for perseverance in good. Such is the meaning and importance of the first privilege of the Carmelite Scapular, which is wont to be expressed in the words: "whoever wears the scapular until death, will be preserved from hell".

The second privilege of the scapular otherwise known as the Sabbatine privilege, may be briefly defined as meaning that Mary's motherly assistance for her servants in the Scapular Confraternity will continue after death, and will find effect especially on Saturday (the day consecrated to her honour), provided that the members fulfill faithfully the not easy conditions necessary for obtaining this privilege.

As regards the external form of the scapular, it should consist of two segments of brown woollen cloth; black, however, is also admissible. This scapular usually bears on one side the image of our Lady of Mount Carmel, but neither this nor any other image is prescribed. The authentic list of indulgences, privileges, and indults of the Scapular Confraternity of Mount Carmel was last approved on 4 July, 1908, by the Congregation of Indulgences. It is noteworthy that this summary says nothing of the above-mentioned first privilege; what it says of the Sabbatine privilege is explained in the article on that subject. Concerning the often miraculous protection which Mary on account of this her badge has granted to pious members of the Scapular Confraternity in great perils of soul and body, there exist many records and reliable reports (some of recent times), to which it is impossible to refuse credence. Like the rosary, this scapular has become the badge of the devout Catholic and the true servant of Mary."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13508b.htm

Discuss...
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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2005, 04:06:33 PM »

Geez. Mary? Why is not Christ enough?
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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2005, 04:10:35 PM »

Geez. Mary? Why is not Christ enough?

As Orthodox Christians, we believe in the rightness and power of intercession. One who wears a brown scapular recieves the intercession of Mary:

"For this privilege declares nothing else than that all those who out of true veneration and love for the Blessed Virgin constantly wear the scapular in a spirit of fidelity and confiding faith, after they have been placed by the Church itself with this habit or badge under the special protection of the Mother of God, shall enjoy this special protection in the matter and crisis which most concerns them for time and eternity. Whoever, therefore, even though he be now a sinner, wears the badge of the Mother of God throughout life as her faithful servant, not presumptuously relying on the scapular as on a miraculous amulet, but trustfully confiding in the power and goodness of Mary, may securely hope that Mary will through her powerful and motherly intercession procure for him all the necessary graces for true conversion and for perseverance in good. Such is the meaning and importance of the first privilege of the Carmelite Scapular, which is wont to be expressed in the words: "whoever wears the scapular until death, will be preserved from hell".
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2005, 04:12:04 PM »

Such is the meaning and importance of the first privilege of the Carmelite Scapular, which is wont to be expressed in the words: "whoever wears the scapular until death, will be preserved from hell".

Ummmmm, right. Whatever.
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2005, 04:13:51 PM »

Right. Whatever.

As Orthodox Christians, we pray the Hail Mary and believe in the intercession of the Blessed Virgin.
How then is the scapular hard to consider?
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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2005, 04:25:56 PM »

 Matthew,

 i am so glad you keep this connection with especially the Carmelite tradition (the Spirituality of St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross is very Orthodox in it's mysticism)  And yes, no Orthodox can be without a devotion to the MOther of God.  To the comment above "Mary?  Why isn't Christ enough?"  Well, The Blessed MOther of God always points to Christ. 
   I would caution that the use of the Scapular by an Orthodox "Might" be considered a Latinization.  Have you discussed this with your priest??

    Peace in Carmel,
         Brian Seraphim
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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2005, 04:37:44 PM »


 I would caution that the use of the Scapular by an Orthodox "Might" be considered a Latinization. Have you discussed this with your priest??

Father Michael is a convert from Roman Catholicism and he hasn't said anything about me wearing the scapular at church. I should consider discussing it though.
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2005, 05:02:17 PM »

Quote
whoever wears the scapular until death, will be preserved from hell".

Matthew,

I would not wear the scapular for several reasons. If the Most Holy Theotokos thought that the wearing of this scapular was so important, she would have appeared to Orthodox Christians and told them about it. Also, I don't believe that the Theotokos appeared to Simon Stock. Our preservation from hell/our salvation cannot be brought about by "magic charms".

Our path to salvation consists in our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, love of Him and our neighbor, our participation in the mysteries of the Church and fidelity to Her teachings, and our struggles with fasting and prayer. The Blessed Theotokos lived this life and her life is the example par excellence. The whole idea of the scapular and the preservation from hell is far from Orthodoxy.

Quote
The authentic list of indulgences, privileges, and indults of the Scapular Confraternity of Mount Carmel was last approved on 4 July, 1908, by the Congregation of Indulgences.

There is no need to even comment on this quote.

Gregory (former Roman Catholic who used to wear this scapular)
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« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2005, 05:09:09 PM »


 Our preservation from hell/our salvation cannot be brought about by "magic charms".


"Whoever, therefore, even though he be now a sinner, wears the badge of the Mother of God throughout life as her faithful servant, not presumptuously relying on the scapular as on a miraculous amulet, but trustfully confiding in the power and goodness of Mary, may securely hope that Mary will through her powerful and motherly intercession procure for him all the necessary graces for true conversion and for perseverance in good."

Furthermore, there is no need to believe in indulgences in order to wear the scapular.
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2005, 05:19:07 PM »

Dear Michael,

Quote
"Whoever, therefore, even though he be now a sinner, wears the badge of the Mother of God throughout life as her faithful servant, not presumptuously relying on the scapular as on a miraculous amulet, but trustfully confiding in the power and goodness of Mary, may securely hope that Mary will through her powerful and motherly intercession procure for him all the necessary graces for true conversion and for perseverance in good."

But this doesn't make sense. It is akin to me saying that if I wear my Orthodox cross until death, I will be preserved from hell. Also, this statement implies that Grace is created and that the Theotokos can "procure" Grace.

Gregory
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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2005, 05:23:19 PM »

Dear Michael,



 Also, this statement implies that Grace is created and that the Theotokos can "procure" Grace.

Gregory

Mary can pray for us that we may die in a state of grace.
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2005, 05:46:21 PM »

Mary can pray for us that we may die in a state of grace.

Mary can pray for us, but if we don't live a Godly and Christian life, she cannot SAVE us.

IMO, and as all here know, this is a very divisive subject for me, the quotes you are posting almost raise her to the level of co-redemptionist.

It is against scripture and Orthodox Tradition that some sort of talisman can shield us from our sins. We will most certainly ONLY be judged based on how we lived our lives.
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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2005, 06:29:34 PM »

Mary can pray for us, but if we don't live a Godly and Christian life, she cannot SAVE us.

IMO, and as all here know, this is a very divisive subject for me, the quotes you are posting almost raise her to the level of co-redemptionist.

It is against scripture and Orthodox Tradition that some sort of talisman can shield us from our sins. We will most certainly ONLY be judged based on how we lived our lives.

Amen, Tom.
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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2005, 06:48:42 PM »



Mary can pray for us, but if we don't live a Godly and Christian life, she cannot SAVE us.


One can only receive the benefits of the scapular if he believes in Christ as Lord, Savior and God.
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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2005, 06:55:59 PM »

But this doesn't make sense. It is akin to me saying that if I wear my Orthodox cross until death, I will be preserved from hell. Also, this statement implies that Grace is created and that the Theotokos can "procure" Grace.

I don't think Catholics would put it just like this.  Clearly, it can't be just the Scapular that saves one from hell, since a medal can and often is substituted for the actual Scapular, with no change in privileges.  When one is "enrolled" in it, and that's the way these promises come into effect, one also undertakes more prayer (technically the Little Office, although the Rosary can be substituted) and fasting (Wednesday and Saturday), these things presupposing worthy reception of the Sacraments as well.  In other words, there's a lot more to it than simply wearing a couple of brown tags or a medal.  At least this is how RC's have explained it to me.

Do I think Orthodox should be doing this?  If there is no doctrinal problem with it, and it brings you closer to God through our Holy Mother, then I don't see a reason why not.  I used to pray the Rosary, but now I don't, although I don't really see anything wrong with it.  I suspect if one immerses himself enough in the Orthodox tradition, one will not feel a need for these things anymore--at least that is my experience.  But if there's nothing wrong with it, and it only helps to bring a person closer to God, then I see no reason to reject it just because it's "Western".  Of course, if one can make the case that there is something wrong with it, then I think that needs to at least be considered before proceeding further.     
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2005, 07:39:58 PM »

Do I think Orthodox should be doing this? If there is no doctrinal problem with it, and it brings you closer to God through our Holy Mother, then I don't see a reason why not.  

Exactly


.  I suspect if one immerses himself enough in the Orthodox tradition, one will not feel a need for these things anymore--at least that is my experience. 

I will never abandon the Catholic traditions that I love the most. I still read Catholic books, study Catholic mysticism, etc.
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2005, 07:49:34 PM »

Matthew,

Then why did you become Orthodox? Orthodoxy has a fulness of its own devotions and practices. I have found it is not possible to effectively live in two traditions at once.

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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2005, 10:45:24 PM »

Matthew,

Then why did you become Orthodox? Orthodoxy has a fulness of its own devotions and practices. I have found it is not possible to effectively live in two traditions at once.

Anastasios

Have you read anything by Therese of Avignon or John of the Cross? There are works of Catholic mystics and theologians that Christians of all denominations should embrace, especially Orthodox Christians.

I love Orthodoxy for the right worship, for the beauty and poetry of the liturgy and because that is what I have learned from experience to be the best way I can sing praise to God. However, my love for the liturgy does not prevent me from enjoying a book by Thomas Aquinus or John Paul II.

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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2005, 10:50:40 PM »



Have you read anything by Therese of Avignon or John of the Cross? There are works of Catholic mystics and theologians that Christians of all denominations should embrace, especially Orthodox Christians.

I love Orthodoxy for the right worship, for the beauty and poetry of the liturgy and because that is what I have learned from experience to be the best way I can sing praise to God. However, I that love for the liturgy does not prevent me from reading a book by Thomas Aquinus or John Paul II.

Yes, I actually have read those. But they don't compare to the Philokalia.  I sometimes read Roman Catholic authors myself but not often and I usually don't find anything that Orthodox wouldn't have already said.

Anastasios
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« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2005, 01:00:43 AM »



Yes, I actually have read those. But they don't compare to the Philokalia. I sometimes read Roman Catholic authors myself but not often and I usually don't find anything that Orthodox wouldn't have already said.

Anastasios

 Not to offend, but I find that a bit too narrow.  Mystics of the Latin traditio n such as St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross are timeless and reach across the traditions of East and West.  I think Father Lev Gillet once commented on how many of the saints of the Western Church are complemented by those of the Eastern CHurch and vice-versa.  We must not be triumphalistic about sanctity (not that Anastasios was doing that)  I just think there is much to learn from the Saints of both Eastern and Western traditions.  "Our divisions do not rise to Heaven"
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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2005, 01:36:11 AM »

The whole "state of grace" thing isn't really Orthodox teaching either. Classifications of sins is not an Orthodox practice....It just sounds like you've got a lot of Catholic ideas and practices still bouncing around in your head.
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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2005, 02:32:00 AM »

"I am an Orthodox convert from Catholicism who still believes in the power of the Brown Scapular"

When I was a Catholic I used to wear the brown scapular too, but when you convert to Orthodoxy, you
have to realize that the brown scapular is worthless. Its a "sacramental" of a Heretical church, is just as useless
as Catholic "Sacraments". Thats what I was taught by my priest when I asked him about my Catholic Sacramentals, and what
I should do with them prior to my conversion to Holy Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2005, 02:57:00 AM »

The whole "state of grace" thing isn't really Orthodox teaching either. Classifications of sins is not an Orthodox practice....It just sounds like you've got a lot of Catholic ideas and practices still bouncing around in your head.

What I believe about the scapular in not necessarily the same as what Catholics believe.

I believe that by wearing the blessed scapular, Mary will be in constant intercession for my behalf. She will pray that my faith may stay strong and that my hands may carry out the work of the Lord. She will pray that when my time to die comes, that it will not be of too much suffering and that my faith in Christ will not be broken so that I may enter heaven.

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« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2005, 03:00:31 AM »

"I am an Orthodox convert from Catholicism who still believes in the power of the Brown Scapular"

When I was a Catholic I used to wear the brown scapular too, but when you convert to Orthodoxy, you
have to realize that the brown scapular is worthless.
Nektarios

If Mary really appeared to Simon Stock and promised that whoever wears it will not suffer eternal fire, then it is not worthless and can be rather benificial for both Catholic and Orthodox Christians who believe in the intercession of Mary.

And to refer to the Catholic Church as heretic is not very productive. Rome no longer sees us as heretical so perhaps we should return the favor as fellow Apostolic Christians.

The Catholic Church is misguided on certian things but I do not have the right to call them heretics.
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« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2005, 06:51:17 AM »

In my own (rather worthless) opinion, I see no problem with wearing the scapular as long as you have an Orthodox understanding of it. The Spirit blows where it wills.

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« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2005, 08:49:45 AM »

Quote
What I believe about the scapular in not necessarily the same as what Catholics believe.

I believe that by wearing the blessed scapular, Mary will be in constant intercession for my behalf. She will pray that my faith may stay strong and that my hands may carry out the work of the Lord. She will pray that when my time to die comes, that it will not be of too much suffering and that my faith in Christ will not be broken so that I may enter heaven.

i think this type of mentality can be dangerous, not so much your "version" of what the scapular does for you, but the very act of taking the scapular to have a spiritual significance that the Church does not instruct us about...it seems equivalent to if i were to take a charm of a secular nature and imbue it with a spiritual significance that the Church has not instructed me is there...it comes too close to "worshipping idols," as if what the Church has unequivocally provided for me is not enough. i do not see why using a prayer rope to pray "Most Holy Theotokos, Save us!" will not achieve the same thing you describe above, or praying the Akathist to the Theotokos, or any of the other (what must be) thousands of ways the Orthodox Church teaches us to pray that the Theotokos intercede on our behalf.

just my thoughts...

and for the record, i too still own a brown scapular from my RC days, but it is kept away in a collection of other items of sentimental value from my childhood (since it was given to me at my RC first holy communion)...that's sentimental value, not spiritual.
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« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2005, 09:10:55 AM »


And to refer to the Catholic Church as heretic is not very productive. Rome no longer sees us as heretical so perhaps we should return the favor as fellow Apostolic Christians.


It is difficult for Rome to call Orthodox heretics because the Orthodox church has not added anything to the faith and even Rome recognises this. So from the perspective of Rome, Orthodox are not in heresy.
From the Orthodox viewpoint however, we cannot say the same thing about Rome.

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« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2005, 01:51:12 PM »

If Mary really appeared to Simon Stock and promised that whoever wears it will not suffer eternal fire, then it is not worthless and can be rather benificial for both Catholic and Orthodox Christians who believe in the intercession of Mary.

Yeah, but then you have to demonstrate that She really did appear to Simon Stock.  Even the RCC won't definitively say She did, they'll just say that you are permitted to believe that it was so. 
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« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2005, 01:55:39 PM »

If Mary really appeared to Simon Stock and promised that whoever wears it will not suffer eternal fire...

Dude, she DIDN'T!

Only CHRIST can save. Mary CANNOT save us!

You are still Roman Catholic whether you want to admit it or not.
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« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2005, 02:31:45 PM »

Matthew,

Talk to your priest about it and listen to what he says.  Do what he says.  Don't look for direction here.  I don't think that's the proper role of this forum. 
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« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2005, 03:18:59 PM »

Matthew,

Talk to your priest about it and listen to what he says. Do what he says. Don't look for direction here. I don't think that's the proper role of this forum.

Absolutely.
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« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2005, 03:25:15 PM »



i think this type of mentality can be dangerous, not so much your "version" of what the scapular does for you, but the very act of taking the scapular to have a spiritual significance that the Church does not instruct us about

What I mean is that I do not hold any Catholic beliefs on the scapular that go in contradiction with the Orthodox faith.
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« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2005, 08:13:25 PM »

Quote
What I mean is that I do not hold any Catholic beliefs on the scapular that go in contradiction with the Orthodox faith.

But, unless i am mistaken, the scapular is a product of Roman Catholicism, not Orthodoxy, and as such is not a product of Christ's Church here on earth, which is why ascribing it a value and function that the Church does not instruct us about can be dangerous. again, i dont see why you can't just take up one of the many ways of devotion to the Theotokos that your Church provides for you - if you are unsure of what these are, only ask and i am sure you will get a plethora of answers, both here and with your priest. 
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« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2005, 08:24:32 PM »



But, unless i am mistaken, the scapular is a product of Roman Catholicism, not Orthodoxy, and as such is not a product of Christ's Church here on earth

I believe that Orthodoxy and Catholicism both belong to Christ's Church here on earth but that there are certian problems within Catholicism that prevent us from having communion with each other.

I wore the scapular a few times when I was in elementary school but I did not become serious about wearing it until after I converted to Orthodoxy.

What harm is there in wearing the scapular?

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« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2005, 08:38:16 PM »

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I believe that Orthodoxy and Catholicism both belong to Christ's Church here on earth but that there are certian problems within Catholicism that prevent us from having communion with each other.

You have the right to believe what you want, but ultimately your Church believes otherwise, since Christ's Church here on earth is indivisible (see the Creed: "In one, holy, catholic and apostalic Church."), and so the Church is either the Roman Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church, it cannot be both.
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« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2005, 10:16:31 PM »



You have the right to believe what you want, but ultimately your Church believes otherwise...

Then why do we belong to the National Council of Churches? Is this not for the sake of ecumenism between denominations?

ecumenicism
n : (Christianity) the doctrine of the ecumenical movement that promotes cooperation and better understanding among different religious denominations: aimed at universal Christian unity


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« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2005, 10:48:07 PM »



Then why do we belong to the National Council of Churches? Is this not for the sake of ecumenism between denominations?

ecumenicism
n : (Christianity) the doctrine of the ecumenical movement that promotes cooperation and better understanding among different religious denominations: aimed at universal Christian unity




What you write above, and what you stated earlier:

Quote
I believe that Orthodoxy and Catholicism both belong to Christ's Church here on earth but that there are certian problems within Catholicism that prevent us from having communion with each other.

do not say the same thing. The Orthodox Church can participate in ecumenical dialogue as you define it, while also asserting that She is Christ's undivided Church, which means no other "denomination," as the definition puts it, can be as well (if Christ's Church is in fact undivided).
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« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2005, 10:51:07 PM »



Then why do we belong to the National Council of Churches? Is this not for the sake of ecumenism between denominations?

ecumenicism
n : (Christianity) the doctrine of the ecumenical movement that promotes cooperation and better understanding among different religious denominations: aimed at universal Christian unity




The official reason for the participation in ecumenism is to convert others to Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2005, 10:52:33 PM »

The only goal of ecumenism should be evangelism-- bringing the Truth of Christ's Church to those who have fallen away. (Although it's also good to learn where others are coming from and so on.) Unfortunately this is not always so.

Yet I do not see this as a reason why should shun spiritual expressions of any non-Orthodox peoples. Paul quoted both the Old Testament and pagan philosophers; he just brought it into the understanding of the Church, baptized the ideas into the Church (so to speak, and to paraphrase from a conversation with Donna Rose a few days ago Smiley.)

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« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2005, 10:54:13 PM »

Matthew,

The writings of Fr Georges Florovsky (Orthodox) are indicative. I suggest you track them down from interlibrary loan if need be. A paraphrase from one of his writings: "For us, Church unity is universal conversion to Orthodoxy."

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« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2005, 10:56:04 PM »

The Orthodox Church can participate in ecumenical dialogue as you define it, while also asserting that She is Christ's undivided Church, which means no other "denomination," as the definition puts it, can be as well (if Christ's Church is in fact undivided).

I believe that the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches are united in the Spirit even though we should remain autonomos.
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« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2005, 10:58:25 PM »

Paul quoted both the Old Testament and pagan philosophers; he just brought it into the understanding of the Church, baptized the ideas into the Church (so to speak, and to paraphrase from a conversation with Donna Rose a few days ago Smiley.)


I wouldn't necessarily equate Protestantism and Catholicism with paganism. Smiley
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« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2005, 11:56:17 PM »

Quote
I wore the scapular a few times when I was in elementary school but I did not become serious about wearing it until after I converted to Orthodoxy.

That's interesting....

I wonder what it is about your conversion to Orthodoxy that you would suddenly feel the need to don Roman Catholic sacramentals...?

Quote
What harm is there in wearing the scapular?

I would wonder why you'd care to wear it for practical reasons, such as (God forbid) you needed to be hospitalized and since you were wearing the scapular you would be confused for a Roman Catholic. Receiving the sacraments from a Roman Catholic priest unless it's a deathbed situation is frowned upon by both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Quote
I believe that the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches are united in the Spirit even though we should remain autonomos.

Exactly. These are your beliefs, not those of the Catholic or Orthodox Churches. You have just decided to pick and choose what you like from either Church's respective traditions, making your own belief system which is either semi-Catholic or quasi-Orthodox, and being in the middle of the road is not the best place to be.

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« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2005, 12:02:49 AM »



I wouldn't necessarily equate Protestantism and Catholicism with paganism.  Smiley

Well no, but my point was to discuss traditions outside the Church.

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« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2005, 12:14:09 AM »


I wonder what it is about your conversion to Orthodoxy that you would suddenly feel the need to don Roman Catholic sacramentals...?


I looked in to the history and doctrine of the scapular.


 Receiving the sacraments from a Roman Catholic priest unless it's a deathbed situation is frowned upon by both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.


There are some Roman Catholic priests who I would no honored to receive last rites from.


Exactly. These are your beliefs, not those of the Catholic or Orthodox Churches. You have just decided to pick and choose what you like from either Church's respective traditions, making your own belief system which is either semi-Catholic or quasi-Orthodox, and being in the middle of the road is not the best place to be.


I believe you are misunderstanding my point.

1 Corinthians 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."


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