Author Topic: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?  (Read 5792 times)

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Offline julianhayda

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #90 on: February 07, 2013, 03:32:48 PM »
Look at the OCA, the Orthodox Church in America, a very unassuming and seemingly straightforward name. They may speak English and are great about including ethnic Americans, but when it really boils down to it, it follows the Muscovite (Russian) Tradition -- Znamenny, Moscow, and Valaam Chants, high-back phelons, celebrating the feast days of very Russian-specific saints, emphasis on the Protection of the Mother of God, and the occasional use of Slavonic, are undeniably Russian. Yet, ethnic Americans don't seem to feel so alienated there.

50% of the OCA pictures I've seen depict clergy with Greek phelonions. Go, figure...

You're missing the point here, there will always, always be overlap. That's why absolutes in terms of anything church related are impossible.
What does it profit if we abstain from fish or fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters?
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Offline mike

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #91 on: February 07, 2013, 03:40:14 PM »
Look at the OCA, the Orthodox Church in America, a very unassuming and seemingly straightforward name. They may speak English and are great about including ethnic Americans, but when it really boils down to it, it follows the Muscovite (Russian) Tradition -- Znamenny, Moscow, and Valaam Chants, high-back phelons, celebrating the feast days of very Russian-specific saints, emphasis on the Protection of the Mother of God, and the occasional use of Slavonic, are undeniably Russian. Yet, ethnic Americans don't seem to feel so alienated there.

50% of the OCA pictures I've seen depict clergy with Greek phelonions. Go, figure...

You're missing the point here, there will always, always be overlap. That's why absolutes in terms of anything church related are impossible.

That means you should not say OCA is Russian.
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Offline julianhayda

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #92 on: February 07, 2013, 03:44:36 PM »
We've never used Slavonic at my OCA parish.  Mind you that some OCA parishes are ethnic parishes.  It is not true that all are "American" or "North American".  Also we have a lot of "American" saints though admittedly they are mostly Russian saints who have come to North America.  But there aren't as much North American Orthodox Saints to fill up the calendar just yet and admittedly the Church was born from the Russian Church, so there are many hold-overs.  Do you think Sts. Cyrill and Methodius started from scratch and did everything Slavic for their mission?

I find it odd that an American church is rooted in a Russian church which is rooted in a Greek Church. It seems counter intuitive. Cyril and Methodius came to what is present day Ukraine not as immigrants struggling to hold on to their identities, rather they came as missionaries who adopted countless Slavic pagan customs into legitimate Christian worship. Of course they didn't start from scratch, but their mission from Byzantium didn't have a Miscovite middleman with a potentially ulterior motive.

Also, I was referring to the language of the OCA overall. You'd be hard pressed to go to a major diocesan or heirarchal liturgy without hearing a Mnogaya Leta. Sure, parishes have different degrees of ethnic identity, but I'm generalizing here for same of argument, time, and clarity. Your parish sounds like its on the right track for greater inclusion of ethnic Americans in the broader Orthodox fold in America.
What does it profit if we abstain from fish or fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters?
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Offline julianhayda

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #93 on: February 07, 2013, 03:46:30 PM »
Look at the OCA, the Orthodox Church in America, a very unassuming and seemingly straightforward name. They may speak English and are great about including ethnic Americans, but when it really boils down to it, it follows the Muscovite (Russian) Tradition -- Znamenny, Moscow, and Valaam Chants, high-back phelons, celebrating the feast days of very Russian-specific saints, emphasis on the Protection of the Mother of God, and the occasional use of Slavonic, are undeniably Russian. Yet, ethnic Americans don't seem to feel so alienated there.

50% of the OCA pictures I've seen depict clergy with Greek phelonions. Go, figure...

You're missing the point here, there will always, always be overlap. That's why absolutes in terms of anything church related are impossible.

That means you should not say OCA is Russian.

Michal, call me when you find any church anywhere that doesn't have influences from other Traditions. Please..
What does it profit if we abstain from fish or fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters?
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Offline mike

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #94 on: February 07, 2013, 03:56:38 PM »
It seems counter intuitive. Cyril and Methodius came to what is present day Ukraine

Did they?

Michal, call me when you find any church anywhere that doesn't have influences from other Traditions. Please..

You are arguing that OCA follows Russian tradition and therefore cannot represent the "fullness of Orthodoxy". Yet in these pictures half of the clergy have Greek, not Russian phelonions. You can also see in quite few pictures people capturing the cross which is also not a Russian tradition, some churches have pews - also not Russian. It looks that, contrary to your words, OCA somehow manage to have multiple liturgical traditions and despite being in one jurisdiction these churches manage to keep their uniqueness.







Nice Ukrainian vestments, don't you think? Notice the boy who accordingly to Balkan tradition caught the cross.



Nice Ukrainian towel.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 04:02:10 PM by Michał Kalina »
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #95 on: February 07, 2013, 03:57:27 PM »
Also, I was referring to the language of the OCA overall. You'd be hard pressed to go to a major diocesan or heirarchal liturgy without hearing a Mnogaya Leta.

Never heard it, and I've been to several of both.
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Offline julianhayda

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #96 on: February 07, 2013, 04:16:32 PM »
Guys, I would live to keep going about this, but I must point out that you are nitpicking a rather novel detail from my original comment and are missing the broader point I was making.  ...I also have a class to get to across campus.

Perhaps I see the OCA as more Russian than Greek or whatnot because I am an outsider looking in and my experience isn't as intimate as yours. But for the moment, I'd like to not clog this thread with unrelated banter.
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Offline mike

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #97 on: February 07, 2013, 04:19:34 PM »
Guys, I would live to keep going about this, but I must point out that you are nitpicking a rather novel detail from my original comment and are missing the broader point I was making.  ...I also have a class to get to across campus.

Your broader point consists of such novel details. If the rest of them is as corresponding to reality as that one your broader point makes no sense.
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Offline Monk Vasyl

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #98 on: February 07, 2013, 04:36:23 PM »
Look at the OCA, the Orthodox Church in America, a very unassuming and seemingly straightforward name. They may speak English and are great about including ethnic Americans, but when it really boils down to it, it follows the Muscovite (Russian) Tradition -- Znamenny, Moscow, and Valaam Chants, high-back phelons, celebrating the feast days of very Russian-specific saints, emphasis on the Protection of the Mother of God, and the occasional use of Slavonic, are undeniably Russian. Yet, ethnic Americans don't seem to feel so alienated there.

50% of the OCA pictures I've seen depict clergy with Greek phelonions. Go, figure...

When I was a member of the OCA, it was during the time of Metropolitan Theodosius, that the Greek style phelonion was allowed to be used.
The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #99 on: February 07, 2013, 05:48:57 PM »
Guys, I would live to keep going about this, but I must point out that you are nitpicking a rather novel detail from my original comment and are missing the broader point I was making.  ...I also have a class to get to across campus.

Your broader point consists of such novel details. If the rest of them is as corresponding to reality as that one your broader point makes no sense.

Thank you. This is the point, you see. You make assertions - that's fine. It's what we do here. But you support them with anecdotal details which are not necessarily true, broadly speaking. If the supporting details are faulty, can the conclusions be sound? Perhaps, but then more evidence is needed, so to speak.
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #100 on: February 07, 2013, 05:50:02 PM »
Look at the OCA, the Orthodox Church in America, a very unassuming and seemingly straightforward name. They may speak English and are great about including ethnic Americans, but when it really boils down to it, it follows the Muscovite (Russian) Tradition -- Znamenny, Moscow, and Valaam Chants, high-back phelons, celebrating the feast days of very Russian-specific saints, emphasis on the Protection of the Mother of God, and the occasional use of Slavonic, are undeniably Russian. Yet, ethnic Americans don't seem to feel so alienated there.

50% of the OCA pictures I've seen depict clergy with Greek phelonions. Go, figure...

When I was a member of the OCA, it was during the time of Metropolitan Theodosius, that the Greek style phelonion was allowed to be used.

Maybe they just got a good deal on the Greek style vestments?
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #101 on: February 07, 2013, 05:52:07 PM »

In my area....when a Pan-Orthodox Vespers is held in an OCA church....many clergy do not show up. 

I can't say about the faithful, as I don't know who is from which parish....but, the clergy are blatantly missing.
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Offline choy

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #102 on: February 07, 2013, 05:55:44 PM »
We've never used Slavonic at my OCA parish.  Mind you that some OCA parishes are ethnic parishes.  It is not true that all are "American" or "North American".  Also we have a lot of "American" saints though admittedly they are mostly Russian saints who have come to North America.  But there aren't as much North American Orthodox Saints to fill up the calendar just yet and admittedly the Church was born from the Russian Church, so there are many hold-overs.  Do you think Sts. Cyrill and Methodius started from scratch and did everything Slavic for their mission?

I find it odd that an American church is rooted in a Russian church which is rooted in a Greek Church. It seems counter intuitive. Cyril and Methodius came to what is present day Ukraine not as immigrants struggling to hold on to their identities, rather they came as missionaries who adopted countless Slavic pagan customs into legitimate Christian worship. Of course they didn't start from scratch, but their mission from Byzantium didn't have a Miscovite middleman with a potentially ulterior motive.

Also, I was referring to the language of the OCA overall. You'd be hard pressed to go to a major diocesan or heirarchal liturgy without hearing a Mnogaya Leta. Sure, parishes have different degrees of ethnic identity, but I'm generalizing here for same of argument, time, and clarity. Your parish sounds like its on the right track for greater inclusion of ethnic Americans in the broader Orthodox fold in America.

The first Orthodox missionaries were Russian and they came to Alaska.  And yes, some of the problems we have today is because it was immigrants who came to North America who wanted a church where they can continue their way of life.  For the most part it was not missionaries who had the goal of Christianizing the local populace.  And despite the efforts to "localize" the faith for the Slavs, the ethnic foundation of the faith that Sts. Cyril and Methodius came with was Greek.  I'm pretty sure whatever they taught and establish then is, if viewed by today's standards, Greek instead of Slavic.

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #103 on: February 08, 2013, 10:51:06 AM »

In my area....when a Pan-Orthodox Vespers is held in an OCA church....many clergy do not show up. 

I can't say about the faithful, as I don't know who is from which parish....but, the clergy are blatantly missing.

Part of that may be due to the perception by some clergy of a kind of "problematic" status of the OCA. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms.
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #104 on: February 08, 2013, 11:26:58 AM »

In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

Not sure I understand this. I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, just pointing out evidence that it's probably going to happen, whether people want it to or not. It always does.
Dixie, you don'r know anything about the history and policies of Canada.  We are not Americans.  You are American, Julian is American, Cossack is American.  But I am a Canadian of Ukrainian origin. For the Toronto Ukrainian festival this fall the co-mayors or openeers were the descendents of the 2 original Ukrainian settlers in 1891.  Guess what they still speak Ukrainian and go to Ukrainian churches and are active in the Ukrainian-Canadian community.  What is 30 years from 1891? 1921?  Our original Ukrainians came here as settlers of the Canadian prairies and lived on farms in areas where it was almost 100% Ukrainian.  And they built their own churches.  PLus we have a bi-lingual school system on the Canadian prairies where children can go to school and the language of instruction is both Ukrainian and English.  Ukrainian is also taught for credit in high schools and at the universities on the prairies.  And the Canadian government has an official policy of multiculturalism where all cultures are valued.  So we have people who are 5th & 6th generation Ukrainian-Canadian living here.
And by the way our church the UOCC was formed as a Canadian church for people of Ukrainian origin.  We do not want to be part of a church in Ukraine.  And I do not consider myself living in the diaspora.  I am a Ukrainian-Canadian and have no wish to live in Ukraine.  Our church is part of the EP who has jurisdiction over all "barbarian lands" which includes North America. 
What is going in this forum is that 2 Americans of Ukrainian origin who are part of a schism n the UOC-USA are trying to influence to create a schism in Canada too.  But guess what it isn't working.  They come up to Canad and give speeches and a few people show up.  Now they are disappointed that no one wants to follow them so they have taken to the internet.

Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #105 on: February 08, 2013, 11:31:27 AM »
By the way I don't see signs of "death" in the UOCC.  I do see a very successful mission church in Bradford Ontario and another successful mission 3 Sundays a month at our chapel in Oakville: and yes the people who come are Ukrainian-speaking.  We have to build new churches where the people live or else we will loose them.
And talk about Famous Ukrainian-Canadian Orthodox: Roberta Bondar for one who was very active in her church in Sault Ste. Marie and the former Governor General Ray Hnatishchin.  When he died CBC TV broadcasted his funeral service with our Metropolitan and priests and a choir of the Ukrainian Orthodox CHurch.  All on national TV

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #106 on: February 08, 2013, 12:09:29 PM »

In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

Not sure I understand this. I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, just pointing out evidence that it's probably going to happen, whether people want it to or not. It always does.
Dixie, you don'r know anything about the history and policies of Canada.  We are not Americans.  You are American, Julian is American, Cossack is American.  But I am a Canadian of Ukrainian origin. For the Toronto Ukrainian festival this fall the co-mayors or openeers were the descendents of the 2 original Ukrainian settlers in 1891.  Guess what they still speak Ukrainian and go to Ukrainian churches and are active in the Ukrainian-Canadian community.  What is 30 years from 1891? 1921?  Our original Ukrainians came here as settlers of the Canadian prairies and lived on farms in areas where it was almost 100% Ukrainian.  And they built their own churches.  PLus we have a bi-lingual school system on the Canadian prairies where children can go to school and the language of instruction is both Ukrainian and English.  Ukrainian is also taught for credit in high schools and at the universities on the prairies.  And the Canadian government has an official policy of multiculturalism where all cultures are valued.  So we have people who are 5th & 6th generation Ukrainian-Canadian living here.
And by the way our church the UOCC was formed as a Canadian church for people of Ukrainian origin.  We do not want to be part of a church in Ukraine.  And I do not consider myself living in the diaspora.  I am a Ukrainian-Canadian and have no wish to live in Ukraine.  Our church is part of the EP who has jurisdiction over all "barbarian lands" which includes North America. 
What is going in this forum is that 2 Americans of Ukrainian origin who are part of a schism n the UOC-USA are trying to influence to create a schism in Canada too.  But guess what it isn't working.  They come up to Canad and give speeches and a few people show up.  Now they are disappointed that no one wants to follow them so they have taken to the internet.

Thank you Irene for reminding us of the real differences regarding multi-capitalism between our countries. I recall discovering that year's ago when I lived in the Buffalo area and crossed the border often.  Here in the states the only comparable area is probably metro NYC. Although in recent decades this is changing among newer immigrants, our Ukrainians, Lemkos and Rusyns in the USA are different culturally than those in Canada. So, please take my comments as to the USA - not Canada.




Offline cossack 316

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #107 on: February 08, 2013, 04:32:46 PM »

In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

Not sure I understand this. I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, just pointing out evidence that it's probably going to happen, whether people want it to or not. It always does.
Dixie, you don'r know anything about the history and policies of Canada.  We are not Americans.  You are American, Julian is American, Cossack is American.  But I am a Canadian of Ukrainian origin. For the Toronto Ukrainian festival this fall the co-mayors or openeers were the descendents of the 2 original Ukrainian settlers in 1891.  Guess what they still speak Ukrainian and go to Ukrainian churches and are active in the Ukrainian-Canadian community.  What is 30 years from 1891? 1921?  Our original Ukrainians came here as settlers of the Canadian prairies and lived on farms in areas where it was almost 100% Ukrainian.  And they built their own churches.  PLus we have a bi-lingual school system on the Canadian prairies where children can go to school and the language of instruction is both Ukrainian and English.  Ukrainian is also taught for credit in high schools and at the universities on the prairies.  And the Canadian government has an official policy of multiculturalism where all cultures are valued.  So we have people who are 5th & 6th generation Ukrainian-Canadian living here.
And by the way our church the UOCC was formed as a Canadian church for people of Ukrainian origin.  We do not want to be part of a church in Ukraine.  And I do not consider myself living in the diaspora.  I am a Ukrainian-Canadian and have no wish to live in Ukraine.  Our church is part of the EP who has jurisdiction over all "barbarian lands" which includes North America. 
What is going in this forum is that 2 Americans of Ukrainian origin who are part of a schism n the UOC-USA are trying to influence to create a schism in Canada too.  But guess what it isn't working.  They come up to Canad and give speeches and a few people show up.  Now they are disappointed that no one wants to follow them so they have taken to the internet.

First off, I do not advocate schism. What I want and pray for is for the hierarchs of the other Orthodox Churches to eventually recognize the UOCKP. It seems that an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church (nationalism) is a sin to most of you. You are missing the point that the fact that all of the decision making by the Ecumenical Patriarch and Moscow Patriarch are based on their "nationalism" and or growing (increased money, power and influence). They are not concerned with spiritual matters, if they were what is the issue? Let everyone pray in their own ethnic church, in their own language while keeping their local ethnic customs etc. Why does it bother them so much? Because, it divides up the MONEY and POWER. Two sinful things as I remember. Ukrainians have already wasted 22 years of independence (besides the hundreds before that) waiting for some one to give them permission to exist or to be "recognized". Guess what I recognize all of my ukrainian orthodox brothers and sisters... not just the ones who pay dues to foreign entities, be it Moscow or Constantinople. With that I'm done, God Bless you all and SLAVA UKRAINA

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #108 on: February 08, 2013, 04:49:36 PM »
Slava Bohu!!!

(Glory to God)

Slava Ukraini!
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 04:51:03 PM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline choy

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #109 on: February 08, 2013, 04:59:13 PM »

In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

Not sure I understand this. I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, just pointing out evidence that it's probably going to happen, whether people want it to or not. It always does.
Dixie, you don'r know anything about the history and policies of Canada.  We are not Americans.  You are American, Julian is American, Cossack is American.  But I am a Canadian of Ukrainian origin. For the Toronto Ukrainian festival this fall the co-mayors or openeers were the descendents of the 2 original Ukrainian settlers in 1891.  Guess what they still speak Ukrainian and go to Ukrainian churches and are active in the Ukrainian-Canadian community.  What is 30 years from 1891? 1921?  Our original Ukrainians came here as settlers of the Canadian prairies and lived on farms in areas where it was almost 100% Ukrainian.  And they built their own churches.  PLus we have a bi-lingual school system on the Canadian prairies where children can go to school and the language of instruction is both Ukrainian and English.  Ukrainian is also taught for credit in high schools and at the universities on the prairies.  And the Canadian government has an official policy of multiculturalism where all cultures are valued.  So we have people who are 5th & 6th generation Ukrainian-Canadian living here.
And by the way our church the UOCC was formed as a Canadian church for people of Ukrainian origin.  We do not want to be part of a church in Ukraine.  And I do not consider myself living in the diaspora.  I am a Ukrainian-Canadian and have no wish to live in Ukraine.  Our church is part of the EP who has jurisdiction over all "barbarian lands" which includes North America. 
What is going in this forum is that 2 Americans of Ukrainian origin who are part of a schism n the UOC-USA are trying to influence to create a schism in Canada too.  But guess what it isn't working.  They come up to Canad and give speeches and a few people show up.  Now they are disappointed that no one wants to follow them so they have taken to the internet.

First off, I do not advocate schism. What I want and pray for is for the hierarchs of the other Orthodox Churches to eventually recognize the UOCKP. It seems that an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church (nationalism) is a sin to most of you. You are missing the point that the fact that all of the decision making by the Ecumenical Patriarch and Moscow Patriarch are based on their "nationalism" and or growing (increased money, power and influence). They are not concerned with spiritual matters, if they were what is the issue? Let everyone pray in their own ethnic church, in their own language while keeping their local ethnic customs etc. Why does it bother them so much? Because, it divides up the MONEY and POWER. Two sinful things as I remember. Ukrainians have already wasted 22 years of independence (besides the hundreds before that) waiting for some one to give them permission to exist or to be "recognized". Guess what I recognize all of my ukrainian orthodox brothers and sisters... not just the ones who pay dues to foreign entities, be it Moscow or Constantinople. With that I'm done, God Bless you all and SLAVA UKRAINA


I agree with you right here.  So many issues in the Ukrainian Church will be resolved if they just have an autocephalous canonical Orthodox Church whose head is in Kyiv.  Even the ROC is getting into the Vatican's business by pressuing the Pope not to elevate the UGCC into a Patriarchal Church.  What is it to them really?  It's not even an Orthodox Church, what is their concern?  Ultimately its politics.  Russia wants Ukraine to be part of her political territory.  And right now they are starting by doing that ecclesiastically.

That is one thing I didn't like in the Ukrainian Church.  They'd play something as if it is something spiritual, but really there is an underlying political reason.

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #110 on: February 08, 2013, 06:23:20 PM »

In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

Not sure I understand this. I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, just pointing out evidence that it's probably going to happen, whether people want it to or not. It always does.
Dixie, you don'r know anything about the history and policies of Canada.  We are not Americans.  You are American, Julian is American, Cossack is American.  But I am a Canadian of Ukrainian origin. For the Toronto Ukrainian festival this fall the co-mayors or openeers were the descendents of the 2 original Ukrainian settlers in 1891.  Guess what they still speak Ukrainian and go to Ukrainian churches and are active in the Ukrainian-Canadian community.  What is 30 years from 1891? 1921?  Our original Ukrainians came here as settlers of the Canadian prairies and lived on farms in areas where it was almost 100% Ukrainian.  And they built their own churches.  PLus we have a bi-lingual school system on the Canadian prairies where children can go to school and the language of instruction is both Ukrainian and English.  Ukrainian is also taught for credit in high schools and at the universities on the prairies.  And the Canadian government has an official policy of multiculturalism where all cultures are valued.  So we have people who are 5th & 6th generation Ukrainian-Canadian living here.
And by the way our church the UOCC was formed as a Canadian church for people of Ukrainian origin.  We do not want to be part of a church in Ukraine.  And I do not consider myself living in the diaspora.  I am a Ukrainian-Canadian and have no wish to live in Ukraine.  Our church is part of the EP who has jurisdiction over all "barbarian lands" which includes North America. 
What is going in this forum is that 2 Americans of Ukrainian origin who are part of a schism n the UOC-USA are trying to influence to create a schism in Canada too.  But guess what it isn't working.  They come up to Canad and give speeches and a few people show up.  Now they are disappointed that no one wants to follow them so they have taken to the internet.

Since I never claimed to have any knowledge of the Ukrainian Church, in Canada or America, your scolding is somewhat unjustified.
If you wish only Canadians of Ukrainian origin to discuss this issue, you have only to say so.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #111 on: February 08, 2013, 06:46:17 PM »

In which case, per your theory, this discussion should be put on hold for another 30 or 40 years, when the all the future generations have forgotten then roots and are no longer clinging to their heritage.

Not sure I understand this. I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, just pointing out evidence that it's probably going to happen, whether people want it to or not. It always does.
Dixie, you don'r know anything about the history and policies of Canada.  We are not Americans.  You are American, Julian is American, Cossack is American.  But I am a Canadian of Ukrainian origin. For the Toronto Ukrainian festival this fall the co-mayors or openeers were the descendents of the 2 original Ukrainian settlers in 1891.  Guess what they still speak Ukrainian and go to Ukrainian churches and are active in the Ukrainian-Canadian community.  What is 30 years from 1891? 1921?  Our original Ukrainians came here as settlers of the Canadian prairies and lived on farms in areas where it was almost 100% Ukrainian.  And they built their own churches.  PLus we have a bi-lingual school system on the Canadian prairies where children can go to school and the language of instruction is both Ukrainian and English.  Ukrainian is also taught for credit in high schools and at the universities on the prairies.  And the Canadian government has an official policy of multiculturalism where all cultures are valued.  So we have people who are 5th & 6th generation Ukrainian-Canadian living here.
And by the way our church the UOCC was formed as a Canadian church for people of Ukrainian origin.  We do not want to be part of a church in Ukraine.  And I do not consider myself living in the diaspora.  I am a Ukrainian-Canadian and have no wish to live in Ukraine.  Our church is part of the EP who has jurisdiction over all "barbarian lands" which includes North America.
Your Church might be "part" of the EP, but he has no jurisdiction on North America.

On that:
1903
CHAPTER 42
An Ordinance to incorporate the Bishop of the Russo-Greek Catholic Orthodox Church [i.e. the Russian Archdiocese of North America and the Aleutian Islands], and the Parishes and Missions of the said Church. [Assented to June 19, 1903.]

WHEREAS the Bishop of the Russo-Greek Catholic Orthodox Church for North America and tne Aleutian Islands, has petitioned that he, his successors in office having jurisdiction over the said church in Canada, and each of the duly authorised parishes and missions in the Territories be incorporated ; and it is expedient to grant the prayer of the said petition;

THEREFORE the Lieutenant Governor by and with the advice and consent of the Legislative Assembly of the Territories enacts as follows :

1. The Bishop of the Russo-Greek Catholic Orthodox Church for North America and the Aleutian Islands and his successors Incorporatlon in office, having jurisdiction in Canada, is hereby incorporated for the purposes mentioned in this Ordinance, under the name of " The Bishop of the Russo-Greek Catholic Orthodox Church," (hereinafter called the corporation sole) with all powers and privileges contained in paragraph 38 of section 8 of chapter 1 of The Consolidated Ordinances 1898....
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA183&lpg=PA183&dq=northwest+territories+first+orthodox+church&sig=faH2t_YmTDgfUj0H0s4qkKmIROQ&ei=4GudSubXAY3iMNLJ9JAC&ct=result&id=9l4vAAAAIAAJ&ots=PNecwbNsxP#v=onepage&q&f=false


I got no problem fighting off Yankee designs on Canada, but not at the expense of furthering the Phanar's.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 07:02:29 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline Putnik Namernik

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #112 on: February 26, 2013, 04:25:18 PM »

No, it does not.

However, most people can sympathize with Biro's plight, as they've been shunned at least once in their life and were left feeling awkward about it.

Besides, her trying to make "friends" is hardly shoving Protestant behavior on anyone.  Orthodox folks also make friends.

Let's start from a scratch:

Outside USA there is almost no such thing as "coffee hour". People come to church, pray, and leave. For many of them concept of social gatherings in a church is sacrilegious. Imagine, they come to the country where dominant religious tradition treat  churches as not only places for worship but also as community halls, entertainment centers, pubs, and whatever.
In the Middle East, the Churches resemble those of the USA more than they do not in this.

I just want to comment on this specific point without going into a debate...

I know at least some parishes in Serbia have "coffee hour" where such a thing is needed and where a priest/monk wishes to do so.  I have seen it happen in the monasteries as well.  In other places there is no need for such gatherings or they are organizes in a different manner such as a "spiritual gathering" where a priest in a semi-casual manner talks to parishioners...or they are more structured such as lecturing on a certain topic...options are unlimited.  I am talking from firsthand experience.

Offline mike

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #113 on: February 26, 2013, 04:30:09 PM »
In monasteries it's more likely two have joint meals after services. Especially on non-feast days.

I still cannot imagine how one would organise coffee hour(s) for my Białystok parish that has two Liturgies per sunday attended by several hundreds of people each.
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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #114 on: February 26, 2013, 10:28:26 PM »
In monasteries it's more likely two have joint meals after services. Especially on non-feast days.

I still cannot imagine how one would organise coffee hour(s) for my Białystok parish that has two Liturgies per sunday attended by several hundreds of people each.

It can be done. When I was young we had two liturgies attended by several hundreds each. We have a large social center, common in older American parishes where people held wedding receptions, funeral luncheons, baptismal parties etc...sports programs, meeting rooms... The coffee hour was organized by mothers of the church school children.

Offline Putnik Namernik

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #115 on: February 27, 2013, 01:09:28 PM »
There is something else that should be considered...prior to concluding whether coffee hour in needed or not



In countries where majority of population is Orthodox, Orthodoxy is present in all level of society.

Orthodox RE classes at school and in the church, celebration of St. (school patron in Serbia)
Pretty much every single organization (from sports teams to fire stations and cities) have their patron saints
Orthodox material at public libraries, lectures by Orthodox clergy and/or Orthodox topics
TV shows and documentaries about Orthodox topics, as well as media in general informs about all major feasts...I don't think

Anyway the point being is that Orthodoxy is present in everyday life in (let's say) Serbia, while that is not the case in countries where Orthodox people are minority. In such parishes coffee hour and other activities which could bring parishioners closer are very much needed.  Parish in such places is not "just" a parish ;its actul name is "church-school congregation."

Leadership of each church-school congregation (priest, church council) is therefore responsible is providing an alternative in order to fill out the gap...that is why coffe hours, catechument classes, RE classes at parish for kids and adults, mini library, story time for kids, Serbian/Russian/Greek/etc classes for kids and adults should be offered as well...People need to be explained the significance of Orthodoxy for that one day a week they spend in the church and to be able to preserve their heritage.  That won't make them worse citizens of a country in which they live.  It is quite contrary. 

I agree with the need to have a pan-Orthodox feeling, but by abolishing all other jurisdictions except the "American" ones is not the way to go due to the uniquness of a situation. Perhaps the best way of doing so is by encouraging parishioners of different juristictions which live in the same or neighbouring cities to once a year visit each other not individually but as a parish, to have summer camps for kids together and other similar events. Another thing I want omention is that non-English speaking countries should have a Liturgy and an evening prayer done in English once a month. Reverse rule should apply for the English speaking parishes (one month, Slavonic, Greek, Serbian, Russian, Romanian, etc)...Anyway those are my two cents.






Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #116 on: February 27, 2013, 01:10:09 PM »
In monasteries it's more likely two have joint meals after services. Especially on non-feast days.

I still cannot imagine how one would organise coffee hour(s) for my Białystok parish that has two Liturgies per sunday attended by several hundreds of people each.

It can be done. When I was young we had two liturgies attended by several hundreds each. We have a large social center, common in older American parishes where people held wedding receptions, funeral luncheons, baptismal parties etc...sports programs, meeting rooms... The coffee hour was organized by mothers of the church school children.


Yes, it doesn't seem to be a problem for the large GOA cathedral in our area - two liturgies and a parish of over 1000.
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Offline mike

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #117 on: February 27, 2013, 01:11:40 PM »
Another thing I want omention is that non-English speaking countries should have a Liturgy and an evening prayer done in English once a month.

???
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #118 on: February 27, 2013, 01:16:20 PM »

Michal, are there any English speaking people in your area (besides yourself, of course)?
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Offline mike

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #119 on: February 27, 2013, 01:18:16 PM »

Michal, are there any English speaking people in your area (besides yourself, of course)?


Yes...
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Offline Putnik Namernik

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Re: The Death of the Ukrainian Orthodox/Ukrainian Catholic Community in Canada?
« Reply #120 on: February 27, 2013, 02:30:39 PM »
Another thing I want omention is that non-English speaking countries should have a Liturgy and an evening prayer done in English once a month.

???

I am not sure what you mean by this smiley...I was referring to North America...I have seen it happen and it is useful for parishioner who do not speak the language of that parish...
I just realized I meant to say non-English speaking parishes not countries...
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 02:33:32 PM by Putnik Namernik »