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Author Topic: Where was Adam?  (Read 787 times) Average Rating: 0
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alanscott
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« on: February 07, 2013, 08:57:23 PM »

Hello all!

I think it is understandable that men enjoy, upon occasion, to lightheartedly point out that women ‘ate the apple’ first. Of course laying blame on Eve did not go over that well when Adam tried it with God but none the less. To take it on a serious level and something I have not heard talked about is where was Adam? Why did Eve have to face the serpent alone? Why wasn't Adam there when the flesh of his own flesh needed him most?

Does anyone know any teachings that theologically address this?
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« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2013, 09:07:30 PM »

Why wasn't Adam there when the flesh of his own flesh needed him most?

Because Adam was out working a 12 hour day to provide for his wife and thought he could trust her to do the right thing with out him having to constantly look over her shoulder.
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« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2013, 09:14:29 PM »

Having a nap?
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alanscott
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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2013, 09:17:45 AM »

Why wasn't Adam there when the flesh of his own flesh needed him most?

Because Adam was out working a 12 hour day to provide for his wife and thought he could trust her to do the right thing with out him having to constantly look over her shoulder.

Yea, and see what happened!!!!  j/k

You do have a valid consideration of course: “Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it”.

As I am not Orthodox I was wondering if there are any Orthodox teachings on the matter I could learn. I am unaware of anything from the Church Fathers, Saints, or Oral Tradition that address this.

Having a nap?

A consequence of sloth?  Wink
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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2013, 09:28:03 AM »

Hello all!

I think it is understandable that men enjoy, upon occasion, to lightheartedly point out that women ‘ate the apple’ first. Of course laying blame on Eve did not go over that well when Adam tried it with God but none the less. To take it on a serious level and something I have not heard talked about is where was Adam? Why did Eve have to face the serpent alone? Why wasn't Adam there when the flesh of his own flesh needed him most?

Does anyone know any teachings that theologically address this?

Maybe he was sleeping or was busy with something the serpent plotted in the garden. The only thing we know is that serpent was crafty enough to talk to Eve alone. It/he turned upside down the order of creation. God created Adam first and used Adam as an instrument to create Eve. The serpent deceived woman first and used her as an instrument to deceive Adam. Thus, God created Eve through Adam whilst the serpent deceived Adam through Eve. The serpent was Lucifer, who rebelled against God and rivaled Him.  Wink
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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2013, 11:17:31 AM »

Hello all!

I think it is understandable that men enjoy, upon occasion, to lightheartedly point out that women ‘ate the apple’ first. Of course laying blame on Eve did not go over that well when Adam tried it with God but none the less. To take it on a serious level and something I have not heard talked about is where was Adam? Why did Eve have to face the serpent alone? Why wasn't Adam there when the flesh of his own flesh needed him most?

Does anyone know any teachings that theologically address this?
God never warned Adam and Eve to avoid the serpent, so why should Adam be concerned about whether Eve ever encounters the serpent? Adam had no more reason to warn Eve about the serpent than he had to warn Eve about the peacock.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 11:17:47 AM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2013, 11:18:28 AM »

Where does Scripture say he wasn't there?

I ain't looked at Genesis in a while, but I don't think a careful reading would show any evidence that Adam and Ever were necessarily separate.  In fact, some translations into English make it somewhat clear that Adam was there IIRC.

Seems to me Adam's absence is a matter of male fantasy.

But I could be wrong. Please someone disabuse me.
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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2013, 11:25:42 AM »

Seems to me Adam's absence is a matter of male fantasy.

A piece of Jewish (Talmudic?) misogyny: Adam lived one thousand years because he had no mother-in-law; had he had no wife, he would have lived forever.
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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2013, 11:33:06 AM »

Seems to me Adam's absence is a matter of male fantasy.

A piece of Jewish (Talmudic?) misogyny: Adam lived one thousand years because he had no mother-in-law; had he had no wife, he would have lived forever.

Likely I suppose, although that is just more precise but doesn't explain how so many men who haven't been raised in the Talmudic tradition continue in this misreading. It is sorta like the proto Mary Magdalene / whore confusion.

For the latter, I think there is are pretty decent explanations about why the RCC and its offspring got that one wrong so often, but how to explain this extremely poor reading this account of the Fall?

At age ten, I saw the words in the Bible didn't match what the preacher said. Being a fundie and incapable of seeing stuff in your head does have its advantages at times.
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« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2013, 11:39:35 AM »

The real question is not of Adam's absence but of his silence.

[redacted in light of Convert Issues, sorry Mods, didn't see the section]
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 11:40:19 AM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2013, 11:50:08 AM »

There's a wonderful story about all this in Orthodox hagiography, about St. Kassia the Hymnographer:

Quote
She was born between 805 and 810 in Constantinople into a wealthy family and grew to be exceptionally beautiful and intelligent. Three Byzantine chroniclers, Pseudo-Symeon the Logothete, George the Monk (a.k.a. George the Sinner) and Leo the Grammarian, claim that she was a participant in the "bride show" (the means by which Byzantine princes/emperors sometimes chose a bride, by giving a golden apple to his choice) organized for the young bachelor Theophilos by his stepmother, the Empress Dowager Euphrosyne. Smitten by Kassia's beauty, the young emperor approached her and said: "Through a woman [came forth] the baser [things]", referring to the sin and suffering coming as a result of Eve's transgression. Kassia promptly responded by saying: "And through a woman [came forth] the better [things]", referring to the hope of salvation resulting from the Incarnation of Christ through the Virgin Mary. According to tradition, the verbatim dialogue was:

    "-Ἐκ γυναικὸς τὰ χείρω." (Ek gynaikós tá cheírō)
    "-Kαὶ ἐκ γυναικὸς τὰ κρείττω." (Kaí ek gynaikós tá kreíttō)

His pride wounded by Kassia's terse rebuttal, Theophilos rejected her and chose Theodora as his wife.

When next we hear of Kassia in 843 she had founded a convent in the west of Constantinople, near the Constantinian Walls, and became its first abbess.[3] Although many scholars attribute this to bitterness at having failed to marry Theophilos and become Empress, a letter from Theodore the Studite indicates that she had other motivations for wanting a monastic life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassia

Now Wikipedia doesn't mention this, but they say that Emperor Theophilos came looking for her at the monastery, but she hid herself from him. The Emperor came to her cell and saw her most famous hymn, which she had just begun writing:

    Sensing Thy divinity, O Lord, a woman of many sins

        takes it upon herself to become a myrrh-bearer,

    And in deep mourning brings before Thee fragrant oil

        in anticipation of Thy burial; crying:

    "Woe to me! For night is unto me, oestrus of lechery,

        a dark and moonless eros of sin.

    Receive the wellsprings of my tears,

        O Thou who gatherest the waters of the oceans into clouds.

    Bend to me, to the sorrows of my heart,

        O Thou who bendedst down the heavens in Thy ineffable self-emptying.

    I will kiss Thine immaculate feet

        and dry them with the locks of my hair;


The Emperor added the next verse:

   Those very feet whose sound Eve heard at dusk in Paradise

        and hid herself in fear.
   

After he was gone, Kassia completed it:

    Who shall reckon the multitude of my sins,

        or the abysses of Thy judgment, O Saviour of my soul?

    Do not ignore me, Thy handmaiden,

        O Thou whose mercy is endless.


The romance ends here - they never saw each other again.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 12:08:14 PM by Romaios » Logged
alanscott
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« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2013, 08:39:46 PM »

Thank you all for your insight!

Where does Scripture say he wasn't there?

I ain't looked at Genesis in a while, but I don't think a careful reading would show any evidence that Adam and Ever were necessarily separate.  In fact, some translations into English make it somewhat clear that Adam was there IIRC.

Seems to me Adam's absence is a matter of male fantasy.

But I could be wrong. Please someone disabuse me.


Maybe he was sleeping or was busy with something the serpent plotted in the garden. The only thing we know is that serpent was crafty enough to talk to Eve alone. It/he turned upside down the order of creation. God created Adam first and used Adam as an instrument to create Eve. The serpent deceived woman first and used her as an instrument to deceive Adam. Thus, God created Eve through Adam whilst the serpent deceived Adam through Eve. The serpent was Lucifer, who rebelled against God and rivaled Him.  Wink

You both make a couple of very valid points.

I had the opportunity to get the opinion of a gentleman I work with well versed in Hebrew and the Torah. While he is not Christian I thought I would pass on his understanding fwiw: He not only agrees Genesis is not conclusive about whether Adam was with Eve at the time but insists that is intentional.  He also agrees that whether Adam was with her or not is insignificant to ‘what we do know’; Satan first deceived Eve and then Eve convinced Adam. Theophilos78 you offer a very interesting point about ‘turning the order of creation upside down’. My co-worker also said to remember that Adam was created from the lowest form of creation and Eve was created from the highest form of creation. I am not certain how that ties in exactly. I feel it does hold a bit of significance to the wonderful story of St. Kassia that Romaios was generous enough to share.


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« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2013, 04:53:03 AM »

Eve was chosen to show the mutual responsibility. If Adam had been tempted and he'd told Eve to eat the fruit, Eve wouldn't have been responsible for the sin since women didn't have the right to decide and were obedient to men. It would have been only Adam's fault then, and in such a way it's mutual.
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« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2013, 05:03:46 AM »

Where does Scripture say he wasn't there?

I ain't looked at Genesis in a while, but I don't think a careful reading would show any evidence that Adam and Ever were necessarily separate.  In fact, some translations into English make it somewhat clear that Adam was there IIRC.

Seems to me Adam's absence is a matter of male fantasy.

But I could be wrong. Please someone disabuse me.

I think the implication is there though, in later interpretation. In at least some Fathers, certainly, but perhaps also in passages such as 1 Tim. 2:13-14...
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« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2013, 09:23:49 AM »

Where does Scripture say he wasn't there?

I ain't looked at Genesis in a while, but I don't think a careful reading would show any evidence that Adam and Ever were necessarily separate.  In fact, some translations into English make it somewhat clear that Adam was there IIRC.

Seems to me Adam's absence is a matter of male fantasy.

But I could be wrong. Please someone disabuse me.

I think the implication is there though, in later interpretation. In at least some Fathers, certainly, but perhaps also in passages such as 1 Tim. 2:13-14...

Only in light of the prejudices is such a reading possible whether they come from the patriarchal readings of St. Paul or other Church Fathers who often weren't the closest of readers.

Yes, I agree that interpretation is out there and long since. But it requires a degree of violence committed on the part of the reader to make it.
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« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2013, 10:05:20 AM »

Eve was chosen to show the mutual responsibility. If Adam had been tempted and he'd told Eve to eat the fruit, Eve wouldn't have been responsible for the sin since women didn't have the right to decide and were obedient to men. It would have been only Adam's fault then, and in such a way it's mutual.

Good point. TY!

God seeing time eternally, I cannot help but to see it as beautifully magnificent that a woman created from the highest form of creation (together with Adam) would bring upon death to the world, and that a woman conceived by the Holy Spirit would then give birth to the world. Glory be to God forever and ever!
 
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