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JamesR
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« on: February 07, 2013, 02:10:44 AM » |
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Okay, I know that this sounds silly, but, I know that Bob Marley converted to Oriental Orthodoxy at the end of his life, and he was a huge social activist for peace and everything, and a lot of people find inspiration and peace from his music. So I was wondering, is it possible that the Oriental Orthodox Church will ever Canonize him a Saint? That would be very interesting; I don't think we've ever had a secular celebrity Saint.
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"'Blessed are the peacemakers' For those are peacemakers in themselves who, in conquering and subjecting to reason all the motions of their souls and having their carnal desires tamed, have become in themselves a Kingdom of God."-St. Augustine of Hippo
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Gebre Menfes Kidus
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« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2013, 02:39:10 AM » |
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I am huge Bob Marley fan. My son was born on his birthday. His music and influence led me to discover the Ethiopian Orthodox Faith. So, Bob Marley is in my heart and soul. However, he was not a Saint IMO. He was baptized very late in his life. I agree that his music and message is spiritually profitable and socially conscious. But many of his songs contained some very unorthodox ideas, most notably the worship of Emperor Haile Selassie. So I don't think he will ever be considered for canonization. However, his music and message will live on nonetheless. Selam |
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« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 02:42:17 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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"Salvation is free, but not easy. It is completely dependent upon the grace of God, and yet we must work it out with fear and trembling. It is given to all, but only a few find it. We are saved only by His Cross, and yet not without taking up our own." +GMK+
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dzheremi
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« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2013, 02:47:54 AM » |
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No, I do not think so. We don't canonize people just because they are famous and happen to be Orthodox.
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JamesR
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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2013, 03:22:00 AM » |
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No, I do not think so. We don't canonize people just because they are famous and happen to be Orthodox.
What about the Tsar's family, St. Constantine and Justinian? They weren't exactly very inspirational people, they just brought the Church in a lot of money. So why not a celebrity? |
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"'Blessed are the peacemakers' For those are peacemakers in themselves who, in conquering and subjecting to reason all the motions of their souls and having their carnal desires tamed, have become in themselves a Kingdom of God."-St. Augustine of Hippo
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dzheremi
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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2013, 03:27:04 AM » |
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Constantine did a lot for the Church, even if he might not have been personally very nice. I don't know about the others you mentioned. Why not a celebrity? Because you have to actually do something in order to be a saint (or so I have been led to believe). Simply being famous isn't enough. I can think of many Ethiopian Orthodox who are much more famous than Bob Marley (at least in Ethiopia, I would think), but they aren't saints. Like I don't think we'll ever the Armenians rushing to canonize any of the Kardashians or Jack Kevorkian, but they're probably the most famous Armenians in the minds of most people on a world level.
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Gebre Menfes Kidus
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« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2013, 03:43:40 AM » |
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Constantine did a lot for the Church, even if he might not have been personally very nice. I don't know about the others you mentioned. Why not a celebrity? Because you have to actually do something in order to be a saint (or so I have been led to believe). Simply being famous isn't enough. I can think of many Ethiopian Orthodox who are much more famous than Bob Marley (at least in Ethiopia, I would think), but they aren't saints. Like I don't think we'll ever the Armenians rushing to canonize any of the Kardashians or Jack Kevorkian, but they're probably the most famous Armenians in the minds of most people on a world level.
Well, let's please not compare Bob Marley to the Kardashians and Jack Kevorkian. Good grief. Selam |
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"Salvation is free, but not easy. It is completely dependent upon the grace of God, and yet we must work it out with fear and trembling. It is given to all, but only a few find it. We are saved only by His Cross, and yet not without taking up our own." +GMK+
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dzheremi
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« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2013, 03:47:38 AM » |
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I'm not. I'm reiterating the general principle that we don't canonize people for being famous.
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« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2013, 03:49:43 AM » |
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Like I don't think we'll ever the Armenians rushing to canonize any of the Kardashians or Jack Kevorkian, but they're probably the most famous Armenians in the minds of most people on a world level.
You forgot Tankian. Constantine did a lot for the Church, even if he might not have been personally very nice. I don't know about the others you mentioned. Why not a celebrity? Because you have to actually do something in order to be a saint (or so I have been led to believe). Simply being famous isn't enough. I can think of many Ethiopian Orthodox who are much more famous than Bob Marley (at least in Ethiopia, I would think), but they aren't saints. Like I don't think we'll ever the Armenians rushing to canonize any of the Kardashians or Jack Kevorkian, but they're probably the most famous Armenians in the minds of most people on a world level.
Well, let's please not compare Bob Marley to the Kardashians and Jack Kevorkian. Good grief. Time to grow up from that celebrity worship, good grief. |
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formerly known as mikeDespite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.  Long live Belarus! "It's my constitutional right!" |
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JamesR
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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2013, 04:00:10 AM » |
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If Tupac were Orthodox, he'd be a Saint for his social activism and giving so much to charity.
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"'Blessed are the peacemakers' For those are peacemakers in themselves who, in conquering and subjecting to reason all the motions of their souls and having their carnal desires tamed, have become in themselves a Kingdom of God."-St. Augustine of Hippo
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Gebre Menfes Kidus
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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2013, 04:10:30 AM » |
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Like I don't think we'll ever the Armenians rushing to canonize any of the Kardashians or Jack Kevorkian, but they're probably the most famous Armenians in the minds of most people on a world level.
You forgot Tankian. Constantine did a lot for the Church, even if he might not have been personally very nice. I don't know about the others you mentioned. Why not a celebrity? Because you have to actually do something in order to be a saint (or so I have been led to believe). Simply being famous isn't enough. I can think of many Ethiopian Orthodox who are much more famous than Bob Marley (at least in Ethiopia, I would think), but they aren't saints. Like I don't think we'll ever the Armenians rushing to canonize any of the Kardashians or Jack Kevorkian, but they're probably the most famous Armenians in the minds of most people on a world level.
Well, let's please not compare Bob Marley to the Kardashians and Jack Kevorkian. Good grief. Time to grow up from that celebrity worship, good grief. Perhaps if you read my initial response to the OP you would not falsely accuse me of celebrity worship. But I guess that wouldn't be any fun now would it? Selam |
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"Salvation is free, but not easy. It is completely dependent upon the grace of God, and yet we must work it out with fear and trembling. It is given to all, but only a few find it. We are saved only by His Cross, and yet not without taking up our own." +GMK+
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Αριστοκλής
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« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2013, 06:00:26 AM » |
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Okay, I know that this sounds silly, but, ...
But what? It IS silly. |
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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
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Gebre Menfes Kidus
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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2013, 07:32:12 AM » |
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Okay, I know that this sounds silly, but, ...
But what? It IS silly. It would be silly not to ask an honest question. I have learned a lot from many people on this forum by asking "silly" questions. Sometimes I was ridiculed, but there were usually kind hearted people who tried to answer my questions in a Christian manner. Because of those good people, I have stayed on this forum and continued to learn, in spite of a lot of nonsense from others. Selam |
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"Salvation is free, but not easy. It is completely dependent upon the grace of God, and yet we must work it out with fear and trembling. It is given to all, but only a few find it. We are saved only by His Cross, and yet not without taking up our own." +GMK+
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Αριστοκλής
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2013, 07:44:15 AM » |
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Okay, I know that this sounds silly, but, ...
But what? It IS silly. It would be silly not to ask an honest question. I have learned a lot from many people on this forum by asking "silly" questions. Sometimes I was ridiculed, but there were usually kind hearted people who tried to answer my questions in a Christian manner. Because of those good people, I have stayed on this forum and continued to learn, in spite of a lot of nonsense from others. Selam Maybe. OC.net always has had a rather nebulous mission. When a poster prefaces his own post as being perhaps "silly", some of us just agree with that. |
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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2013, 12:46:46 PM » |
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If Tupac were Orthodox, he'd be a Saint for his social activism and giving so much to charity.
Dude, the bar for sainthood--actual glorification by the Church--is not as low as you presume. |
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O Master Lord our God...who are wondrous in glory; who keeps his covenant and his mercy to them who love him with all their heart; who has given us redemption...through his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ...the life of everyone, the help of those who flee to him, the hope of those who cry to him.
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orthonorm
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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2013, 12:56:44 PM » |
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If Tupac were Orthodox, he'd be a Saint for his social activism and giving so much to charity.
Dude, the bar for sainthood--actual glorification by the Church--is not as low as you presume. He is just trying to get a rise out of me. I hope for his judgement's sake. |
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2013, 01:53:04 PM » |
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No, I do not think so. We don't canonize people just because they are famous and happen to be Orthodox.
What about the Tsar's family, St. Constantine and Justinian? They weren't exactly very inspirational people, they just brought the Church in a lot of money. So why not a celebrity?  Wow, lets not criticize the saints! All of the saints you named are truly worthy of our praise...God ordained them to be Holy Orthodox emperors. Tsar-Martyr Nicholas and his family weren't just fancy people with big crowns! They were very religious followers and leaders of the Orthodox faith. St. Nicholas's throne and earthly life were taken from him by evil tyrannous men who sought to destroy the church. He wasn't exactly the best ruler but part of the reason for his empire's fall was of him giving aid to other Orthodox kingdoms in need of it. St. Konstantine ended the persecution of Christians, made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire, and ultimately converted to Christianity himself repenting of his past sins and the past sins of his empire therefore tremendously advancing the Christian faith. St. Justinian was a very pious Orthodox Christian emporer who used a lot his power to advance the faith. He was also a great leader who lifted the Byzantine empire when it was on the verge of falling into a dark age and gave way to a Golden age advancing the Byzantine empire to its highest extent. |
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Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us!
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Michał Kalina
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« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2013, 01:56:05 PM » |
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St. Konstantine (...) made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire, He didn't. |
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formerly known as mikeDespite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole. Long live Belarus! "It's my constitutional right!" |
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2013, 01:59:43 PM » |
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No, I do not think so. We don't canonize people just because they are famous and happen to be Orthodox.
What about the Tsar's family, St. Constantine and Justinian? They weren't exactly very inspirational people, they just brought the Church in a lot of money. So why not a celebrity? What books have you actually read about Sts. Constantine and Justinian?  |
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LizaSymonenko
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« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2013, 02:08:58 PM » |
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Tsar-Martyr Nicholas and his family weren't just fancy people with big crowns! They were very religious followers and leaders of the Orthodox faith. St. Nicholas's throne and earthly life were taken from him by evil tyrannous men who sought to destroy the church. He wasn't exactly the best ruler but part of the reason for his empire's fall was of him giving aid to other Orthodox kingdoms in need of it.
Yes, but, the Tzar was not killed for his Orthodox Faith, was he? He wasn't defending it with his life. He was killed simply because he was a royal/aristocrat, no? In the War many Orthodox Christians were killed....and yet, were they canonized? I've always wondered about the "Royal Family' of saints. |
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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
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choy
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« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2013, 02:23:09 PM » |
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Will he be the Patron Saint of "incense"  |
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Cantor Krishnich
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« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2013, 02:59:22 PM » |
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Tsar-Martyr Nicholas and his family weren't just fancy people with big crowns! They were very religious followers and leaders of the Orthodox faith. St. Nicholas's throne and earthly life were taken from him by evil tyrannous men who sought to destroy the church. He wasn't exactly the best ruler but part of the reason for his empire's fall was of him giving aid to other Orthodox kingdoms in need of it.
Yes, but, the Tzar was not killed for his Orthodox Faith, was he? He wasn't defending it with his life. He was killed simply because he was a royal/aristocrat, no? In the War many Orthodox Christians were killed....and yet, were they canonized? I've always wondered about the "Royal Family' of saints. The Communists saw the Tsar's faith and loyalty to the Orthodox Church as dangerous to their evil agenda so they martyred his him and his holy family. The Orthodox Emperor is the icon of Christ...what God has ordained, let no man put aside. Hundreds of faithful Orthodox Christians were martyred by the Communists and they are celebrated on the feast day of the Holy New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia. |
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Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us!
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy Upon Me a Sinner!
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LizaSymonenko
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« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2013, 03:05:21 PM » |
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...not only Russians were martyred by the Communists. Many neighboring nations also suffered great losses.
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Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
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Cantor Krishnich
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« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2013, 03:14:04 PM » |
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...not only Russians were martyred by the Communists. Many neighboring nations also suffered great losses.
Yes of course! But they suffered under they oppression of the Russian SSR. Similarly, the Ottoman new martyrs weren't just Turks but were also from neighboring countries. Vicnaja Pamjat to the victims of Holodomor!.......Holy New Martyrs of Russia, Pray for Us! |
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Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us!
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy Upon Me a Sinner!
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2013, 05:12:24 PM » |
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Tsar-Martyr Nicholas and his family weren't just fancy people with big crowns! They were very religious followers and leaders of the Orthodox faith. St. Nicholas's throne and earthly life were taken from him by evil tyrannous men who sought to destroy the church. He wasn't exactly the best ruler but part of the reason for his empire's fall was of him giving aid to other Orthodox kingdoms in need of it.
Yes, but, the Tzar was not killed for his Orthodox Faith, was he? He wasn't defending it with his life. He was killed simply because he was a royal/aristocrat, no? In the War many Orthodox Christians were killed....and yet, were they canonized? I've always wondered about the "Royal Family' of saints. ROCOR glorified them as royal martyrs and the Moscow Patriarchate as passion bearers. |
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O Master Lord our God...who are wondrous in glory; who keeps his covenant and his mercy to them who love him with all their heart; who has given us redemption...through his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ...the life of everyone, the help of those who flee to him, the hope of those who cry to him.
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2013, 05:13:49 PM » |
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"New Martyrs of Russia" covers the territories comprising the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union, in the most general sense. I would suppose, officially, each local church has its own list and name for them.
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O Master Lord our God...who are wondrous in glory; who keeps his covenant and his mercy to them who love him with all their heart; who has given us redemption...through his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ...the life of everyone, the help of those who flee to him, the hope of those who cry to him.
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JamesR
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« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2013, 05:17:07 PM » |
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It is said that when the Tsar's family was murdered, the bullets were impeded by the massive amount of diamonds that the family was adorned with. I wonder how many of the starving people in Russia at the time could have been fed if they didn't waste away their money on expensive jewelry...
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"'Blessed are the peacemakers' For those are peacemakers in themselves who, in conquering and subjecting to reason all the motions of their souls and having their carnal desires tamed, have become in themselves a Kingdom of God."-St. Augustine of Hippo
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Salpy
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« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2013, 09:47:07 PM » |
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Could we get back on topic, please?
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St. Hripsimeh pray for us!
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« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2013, 12:34:24 AM » |
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Okay, I know that this sounds silly, but, I know that Bob Marley converted to Oriental Orthodoxy at the end of his life, and he was a huge social activist for peace and everything, and a lot of people find inspiration and peace from his music. So I was wondering, is it possible that the Oriental Orthodox Church will ever Canonize him a Saint? That would be very interesting; I don't think we've ever had a secular celebrity Saint.
The African Orthodox Church (largely unaffiliated with actual Orthodox churches) has canonized John Coltrane. There's probably more merit to that just listening to their musical outputs. What exactly has Bob Marley done for peace and everything? I can't say I'm all that familiar. |
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"Some have such command of their bowels, that they can break wind continuously at pleasure, so as to produce the effect of singing."- St. Augustine of Hippo
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Salpy
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« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2013, 01:10:57 AM » |
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St. Hripsimeh pray for us!
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Αριστοκλής
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« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2013, 08:15:58 AM » |
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Okay, I know that this sounds silly, but, I know that Bob Marley converted to Oriental Orthodoxy at the end of his life, and he was a huge social activist for peace and everything, and a lot of people find inspiration and peace from his music. So I was wondering, is it possible that the Oriental Orthodox Church will ever Canonize him a Saint? That would be very interesting; I don't think we've ever had a secular celebrity Saint.
The African Orthodox Church (largely unaffiliated with actual Orthodox churches) has canonized John Coltrane. There's probably more merit to that just listening to their musical outputs. What exactly has Bob Marley done for peace and everything? I can't say I'm all that familiar. "largely unaffiliated"? That's the most diplomatic phrase I've ever seen for raging vagante. |
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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2013, 12:13:54 AM » |
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It is said that when the Tsar's family was murdered, the bullets were impeded by the massive amount of diamonds that the family was adorned with. I wonder how many of the starving people in Russia at the time could have been fed if they didn't waste away their money on expensive jewelry...
Most likely they didn't buy them. They're the family jewels. Anyway, the tsar and his family did a lot of charitable work. There were even people in Russian wealthier than the tsar and weirder than Rasputin. |
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O Master Lord our God...who are wondrous in glory; who keeps his covenant and his mercy to them who love him with all their heart; who has given us redemption...through his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ...the life of everyone, the help of those who flee to him, the hope of those who cry to him.
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WPM
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« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2013, 12:36:55 AM » |
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Hello Rastafarians ... <wave>
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Michał Kalina
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« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2013, 12:44:45 AM » |
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Hello Rastafarians ... <wave>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECD1eTJiknQ0:05 Hello back! |
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« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 12:44:58 AM by Michał Kalina »
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formerly known as mikeDespite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole. Long live Belarus! "It's my constitutional right!" |
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kijabeboy03
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« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2013, 12:20:11 PM » |
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Didn't St. Constantine kill his son? Didn't the Tsar-Martyr have affairs throughout his marriage? That sounds like a low bar to me. (And thank goodness, right?) I'm not arguing for the glorification of Birhane Silase/Bob Marley, I'm just saying the bar has occasionally been lowered, seemingly for political or celebrity status-oriented reasons. If Tupac were Orthodox, he'd be a Saint for his social activism and giving so much to charity.
Dude, the bar for sainthood--actual glorification by the Church--is not as low as you presume. Lets not forget the most famous Armenian-American of them all - Cher! ;-) Constantine did a lot for the Church, even if he might not have been personally very nice. I don't know about the others you mentioned. Why not a celebrity? Because you have to actually do something in order to be a saint (or so I have been led to believe). Simply being famous isn't enough. I can think of many Ethiopian Orthodox who are much more famous than Bob Marley (at least in Ethiopia, I would think), but they aren't saints. Like I don't think we'll ever the Armenians rushing to canonize any of the Kardashians or Jack Kevorkian, but they're probably the most famous Armenians in the minds of most people on a world level.
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"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~
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