Author Topic: Pope disbands clergy awards  (Read 1422 times)

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Offline mike

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Pope disbands clergy awards
« on: January 03, 2014, 09:30:08 PM »
For Latins. Leaving one with some fancy name. No more prelates mitres for presbyters.

I guess our "Greeks" would cheer it up.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 09:31:35 PM by Michał Kalina »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Pope disbands clergy awards
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2014, 09:54:46 PM »
This makes no sense. 
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Offline Maria

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Re: Pope disbands clergy awards
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2014, 09:54:51 PM »
For Latins. Leaving one with some fancy name. No more prelates mitres for presbyters.

I guess our "Greeks" would cheer it up.

Any links?
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Offline mike

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Re: Pope disbands clergy awards
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2014, 09:55:54 PM »
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Pope disbands clergy awards
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2014, 10:01:41 PM »
For Latins. Leaving one with some fancy name. No more prelates mitres for presbyters.

I guess our "Greeks" would cheer it up.

But relations with Russia will be colder.
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Re: Pope disbands clergy awards
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2014, 04:42:50 PM »
Quite shocking. I was used to all these "prałats" (prelats).
And such decision very afflicts traditional Roman Catholics. For sure they will be again disappointed by papacy. Maybe such pope Francis' moves will lead to a schism in the Catholic Church, or, much better, lead some of them to the truly Orthodox Church (I just hope so)?...
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Pope disbands clergy awards
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2014, 05:02:56 PM »
Well not completely.  He will only be awarding the title of Chaplain of His Holiness to diocesan priests of 65 years and older.  He wishes to reduce careerism.  It is not clear if he has abolished Prelates of Honor and Protonotaries Apostolic altogether or is planning on restricting them to priests serving in Rome.

In English:
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/31027/
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Pope disbands clergy awards
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2014, 05:11:57 PM »
For Latins. Leaving one with some fancy name. No more prelates mitres for presbyters.

I guess our "Greeks" would cheer it up.

Latin presbyters have not been allowed the mitre since Pope Paul VI.  The only non-episcopal prelates allowed ponticals since then have been abbots and apostolic prefects and vicars.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Pope disbands clergy awards
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2014, 05:32:11 PM »
Well not completely.  He will only be awarding the title of Chaplain of His Holiness to diocesan priests of 65 years and older.  He wishes to reduce careerism. 

Fr Lance,

My impression was that these awards were largely honourary and did not necessarily advance someone to higher office (although being appointed to higher office might include, as part of the package, such an upgrade).  I can conceive of priests vying for the episcopacy, but is there really a problem with priests seeking out these honours?  Does this move really reduce "careerism", or does it just reduce the amount of purple one might see in the local diocese (not that there are many people wearing cassocks on a daily basis to begin with)?   
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Pope disbands clergy awards
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2014, 05:49:55 PM »
Well not completely.  He will only be awarding the title of Chaplain of His Holiness to diocesan priests of 65 years and older.  He wishes to reduce careerism. 

Fr Lance,

My impression was that these awards were largely honourary and did not necessarily advance someone to higher office (although being appointed to higher office might include, as part of the package, such an upgrade).  I can conceive of priests vying for the episcopacy, but is there really a problem with priests seeking out these honours?  Does this move really reduce "careerism", or does it just reduce the amount of purple one might see in the local diocese (not that there are many people wearing cassocks on a daily basis to begin with)?   

It depends on the diocese and bishop.  In some, these titles were given not so much for service but for being in the right circle.  And yes the title was often semi-automatic with an office.  I have a problem with anybody seeking honors, because in my experience, those who seek them are most often the least deserving of them.  If nothing else it reduces the pomp which in my opinion is always a good thing.  I hope it sends a message and helps to reduce the careerism.
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Offline mike

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Re: Pope disbands clergy awards
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2014, 05:52:17 PM »
My impression was that these awards were largely honourary and did not necessarily advance someone to higher office (although being appointed to higher office might include, as part of the package, such an upgrade).  I can conceive of priests vying for the episcopacy, but is there really a problem with priests seeking out these honours?  Does this move really reduce "careerism", or does it just reduce the amount of purple one might see in the local diocese (not that there are many people wearing cassocks on a daily basis to begin with)?   

Dude, and you graduated SVS? Russians love such things. There are like 10 more more steps of awards for presbyters in Russian tradition.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Pope disbands clergy awards
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2014, 05:58:29 PM »
There are like 10 more more steps of awards for presbyters in Russian tradition.

Which are? I'm only aware of mitre, staff, more fancy cross and elevation to archpriest/archmandrite.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Pope disbands clergy awards
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2014, 06:02:05 PM »
Dude, and you graduated SVS? Russians love such things. There are like 10 more more steps of awards for presbyters in Russian tradition.

You are aware that SVS is not a Roman Catholic seminary, right?  ;)

I know, more or less, how these things are done in the Orthodox Church, but I was asking about Roman Catholicism. 
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Pope disbands clergy awards
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2014, 06:02:14 PM »
There are like 10 more more steps of awards for presbyters in Russian tradition.

Which are? I'm only aware of mitre, staff, more fancy cross and elevation to archpriest/archmandrite.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Clergy_awards
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Pope disbands clergy awards
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2014, 06:11:31 PM »
It depends on the diocese and bishop.  In some, these titles were given not so much for service but for being in the right circle. 

Ah.  How Orthodox of you.  ;)

Quote
I have a problem with anybody seeking honors, because in my experience, those who seek them are most often the least deserving of them.  If nothing else it reduces the pomp which in my opinion is always a good thing.  I hope it sends a message and helps to reduce the careerism.

I agree with you completely regarding those who seek honours. 

That said, I'm not sure exactly what pomp this move reduces.  I don't think I've ever seen a Monsignor in the Northeastern US wear a cassock, even on formal occasions, more than once or twice in my life.  Even when saying Mass, they seem to put their vestments over a black clerical shirt/pants or a golf shirt/khakis.  If I want to see monsignorial purple, I usually have to watch the CTV feed on EWTN or read certain blogs. 

Is there a reason why these honours have been reserved to the Popes?  In our Church, bishops can do this for priests in their jurisdiction without necessarily going through the Patriarch/Synod.  Did diocesan bishops ever have the ability to confer such awards on their own priests by their own authority?       
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Re: Pope disbands clergy awards
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2014, 06:24:24 PM »
In our diocese if you're a young priest in a not so good parish, that's how you go about it: renovate/remodel the church inside or outside, repair or build a new fence etc then invite the bishop to bless the work done and voila, you'd most likely be made an oeconomos which, in turn, will better your chances to get out if that parish to a better one.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Pope disbands clergy awards
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2014, 06:26:27 PM »
Is there a reason why these honours have been reserved to the Popes?  In our Church, bishops can do this for priests in their jurisdiction without necessarily going through the Patriarch/Synod.  Did diocesan bishops ever have the ability to confer such awards on their own priests by their own authority?       

No, the offices to which the title Monsignor are attached are Papal offices, Chaplain of his Holiness(Pope's personal chaplains), Prelate of Honor(title for non-episcopal curial officials), Protonotary Apostolic(Pope's notaries).  It is not unlike how Cardinal titles dervie from the diocese of the Roman province and the parishes and deaconries of the Diocese of Rome.  Bishops can make archpriests (usually refered to as deans, officially vicar forane) and canons for cathedral chapters.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Pope disbands clergy awards
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2014, 06:31:27 PM »
That said, I'm not sure exactly what pomp this move reduces.  I don't think I've ever seen a Monsignor in the Northeastern US wear a cassock, even on formal occasions, more than once or twice in my life.  Even when saying Mass, they seem to put their vestments over a black clerical shirt/pants or a golf shirt/khakis.  If I want to see monsignorial purple, I usually have to watch the CTV feed on EWTN or read certain blogs. 

Oh they are out there and can be quite annoying about it, especially when they are Eastern Catholic.  Another good thing is Eastern Catholic bishops who liked to petition for awarding of the monsignor titles (Maronites mostly) will be forced to award Eastern honors.
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