Author Topic: An Orthodox Pope?  (Read 3619 times)

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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2013, 02:29:50 PM »
I don't know if the fact that the RCC would have to be accepted into Orthodoxy just like any other mass conversion of any other non-Orthodox group is taken into account.  Perhaps it would just be made to be in communion by gesture and prayer, it really would depend on the Patriarch of Constantinople and the synod attached to him.  Only then when a true Roman Patriarch is re-established would there be an Orthodox pope.

For one thing, the Vatican has parishes and bishops in the jurisdiction of every Orthodox Church.  Even Greece.

Even in Sinai?
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Offline sheenj

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2013, 02:33:10 PM »

No Orthodox Pope for me, thanks


Has Alexandria now been stricken from the diptychs?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 02:34:37 PM by sheenj »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2013, 02:35:54 PM »
Ersaia, aren't all priests over there in Elláda called pappas.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 02:37:13 PM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Romaios

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2013, 02:38:07 PM »
I don't know if the fact that the RCC would have to be accepted into Orthodoxy just like any other mass conversion of any other non-Orthodox group is taken into account.  Perhaps it would just be made to be in communion by gesture and prayer, it really would depend on the Patriarch of Constantinople and the synod attached to him.  Only then when a true Roman Patriarch is re-established would there be an Orthodox pope.

For one thing, the Vatican has parishes and bishops in the jurisdiction of every Orthodox Church.  Even Greece.

Even in Sinai?

Just the occasional uniate Bedouin. Maybe a Jesuit Chorepiskopos or two, saying Latin Mass in some tent. 

I'm sure there are already plans to build the New Sinai somewhere in the peninsula.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 02:48:05 PM by Romaios »

Offline Ersaia

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2013, 02:52:19 PM »
Ersaia, aren't all priests over there in Elláda called pappas.

we call any priest -> papás
we call the pope of rome ->  Pápas

Offline sheenj

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2013, 02:53:20 PM »
Ersaia, aren't all priests over there in Elláda called pappas.

we call any priest -> papás
we call the pope of rome ->  Pápas

What do you call the Pope of Alexandria?

You call him: Πάπας και Πατριάρχης Αλεξανδρείας και πάσης Αφρικής.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 03:02:00 PM by sheenj »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2013, 02:56:57 PM »
Ersaia, aren't all priests over there in Elláda called pappas.

we call any priest -> papás
we call the pope of rome ->  Pápas

Ah yes. I never memorise the accents. Thanks.
"We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!"
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Offline Ersaia

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2013, 03:02:20 PM »
Ersaia, aren't all priests over there in Elláda called pappas.

we call any priest -> papás
we call the pope of rome ->  Pápas

What do you call the Pope of Alexandria?

Patriarxi in greek (patriarh)

you can open the site http://www.patriarchateofalexandria.com/
they also use the word Patriarch in main menu (greek and english) as you can see...

Offline Romaios

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2013, 03:06:44 PM »
Ersaia, aren't all priests over there in Elláda called pappas.

we call any priest -> papás
we call the pope of rome ->  Pápas

Ah yes. I never memorise the accents. Thanks.

They do make a difference. I'm not sure how big in this case.

I think they glossed Papa as pater patrum ("Father of fathers"). That would make him a παππούς in Greek?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2013, 03:07:11 PM »
why?
Do you want to go in a plaza and cry because you can see the pope?
why?
Pope and all these-pope-worship is something completely strange for me
and what about this papal infallibility?
who is he?


No Orthodox Pope for me, thanks

We have one, and if you want to remain in communion, so do you:


I am absolutely sure that he don't think he is what the Pope of Rome consider he is. He is just one of our Patriarchs.

He doesn't worry what the "Pope of Rome" thinks.  Why do you?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Romaios

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2013, 03:09:01 PM »
Ersaia, aren't all priests over there in Elláda called pappas.

we call any priest -> papás
we call the pope of rome ->  Pápas

What do you call the Pope of Alexandria?

You call him: Πάπας και Πατριάρχης Αλεξανδρείας και πάσης Αφρικής.

Oh, that and Κριτὴς τῆς Οἰκουμένης - "Judge of the world"...

Offline sheenj

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2013, 03:10:56 PM »

Ersaia, aren't all priests over there in Elláda called pappas.

we call any priest -> papás
we call the pope of rome ->  Pápas

What do you call the Pope of Alexandria?

Patriarxi in greek (patriarh)

you can open the site http://www.patriarchateofalexandria.com/
they also use the word Patriarch in main menu (greek and english) as you can see...
O Rly?

« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 03:12:40 PM by sheenj »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2013, 03:13:16 PM »
Oh, that and Κριτὴς τῆς Οἰκουμένης - "Judge of the world"...

In some older documents I saw Κριτὴς τοῦ Κόσμου. Τhat one's even better.
"We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!"
-T.S. Eliot

Offline ialmisry

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2013, 03:15:00 PM »
Ersaia, aren't all priests over there in Elláda called pappas.

we call any priest -> papás
we call the pope of rome ->  Pápas
we call the Pope of Alexandria Baabaa.  The Greeks call him Pápas
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2013, 03:15:47 PM »

Ersaia, aren't all priests over there in Elláda called pappas.

we call any priest -> papás
we call the pope of rome ->  Pápas

What do you call the Pope of Alexandria?

Patriarxi in greek (patriarh)

you can open the site http://www.patriarchateofalexandria.com/
they also use the word Patriarch in main menu (greek and english) as you can see...
O Rly?


How do you do that?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Romaios

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2013, 03:16:13 PM »
Oh, that and Κριτὴς τῆς Οἰκουμένης - "Judge of the world"...

In some older documents I saw Κριτὴς τοῦ Κόσμου. Τhat one's even better.

Yeah, "Judge of the Universe" rulz!  ::) 
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 03:18:16 PM by Romaios »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #61 on: February 21, 2013, 03:17:14 PM »
Oh, that and Κριτὴς τῆς Οἰκουμένης - "Judge of the world"...

In some older documents I saw Κριτὴς τοῦ Κόσμου. Τhat one's even better.

Yeah, "Judge of the Universe" rulz!  ::)

It's even better than Vicar of Christ  ;D
"We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!"
-T.S. Eliot

Offline Ersaia

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #62 on: February 21, 2013, 03:20:17 PM »
dear it's his title and they must write it
but as you can see in the main menu they use the word Patriarch not the word Pope :P

anyway we use the word Patriarch mostly, you will read the word Pope only in officiall papers etc

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #63 on: February 21, 2013, 03:21:06 PM »
dear it's his title and they must write it
but as you can see in the main menu they use the word Patriarch not the word Pope :P

anyway we use the word Patriarch mostly, you will read the word Pope only in officiall papers etc


Btw, is the text sheenj posted Katharevousa?
"We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!"
-T.S. Eliot

Offline Romaios

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #64 on: February 21, 2013, 03:21:34 PM »
Oh, that and Κριτὴς τῆς Οἰκουμένης - "Judge of the world"...

In some older documents I saw Κριτὴς τοῦ Κόσμου. Τhat one's even better.

Yeah, "Judge of the Universe" rulz!  ::)

It's even better than Vicar of Christ  ;D

One must needs be Vicar of Christ to judge the Universe: "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." (Mat. 28:18)

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #65 on: February 21, 2013, 03:23:14 PM »
Oh, that and Κριτὴς τῆς Οἰκουμένης - "Judge of the world"...

In some older documents I saw Κριτὴς τοῦ Κόσμου. Τhat one's even better.

Yeah, "Judge of the Universe" rulz!  ::)

It's even better than Vicar of Christ  ;D

One must needs be Vicar of Christ to judge the Universe: "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." (Mat. 28:18)

Ah well, I just laugh at all those poetic titles Patriarchs gave themselves through the ages. I guess they're not meant to be taken too serious.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 03:23:33 PM by Cyrillic »
"We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!"
-T.S. Eliot

Offline Ersaia

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #66 on: February 21, 2013, 03:26:41 PM »
dear it's his title and they must write it
but as you can see in the main menu they use the word Patriarch not the word Pope :P

anyway we use the word Patriarch mostly, you will read the word Pope only in officiall papers etc


Btw, is the text sheenj posted Katharevousa?

no, it's modern greek. (katharevousa has many different accents, modern greek only one)

Offline Romaios

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #67 on: February 21, 2013, 03:28:21 PM »
dear it's his title and they must write it
but as you can see in the main menu they use the word Patriarch not the word Pope :P

anyway we use the word Patriarch mostly, you will read the word Pope only in officiall papers etc


Btw, is the text sheenj posted Katharevousa?

Hardly - the plain common Greek of today. Polytonika seem to survive only on Mount Athos. Monk Moses Hagiorites is the foremost example I can think of, whose Greek could be seen as katharevousa. He is my favourite contemporary hagiographer.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 03:29:48 PM by Romaios »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #68 on: February 21, 2013, 03:30:36 PM »
Hardly - the plain common Greek of today. Polytonika seem to survive only on Mount Athos. Monk Moses Hagiorites is the foremost example I can think of, whose Greek could be seen as katharevousa. He is my favourite contemporary hagiographer.

Sometimes I ask myself whether you're Greek.
"We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!"
-T.S. Eliot

Offline Romaios

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #69 on: February 21, 2013, 03:32:22 PM »
Hardly - the plain common Greek of today. Polytonika seem to survive only on Mount Athos. Monk Moses Hagiorites is the foremost example I can think of, whose Greek could be seen as katharevousa. He is my favourite contemporary hagiographer.

Sometimes I ask myself whether you're Greek.

Geek, rather.  ;)

But I am flattered, nevertheless...
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 03:34:47 PM by Romaios »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #70 on: February 21, 2013, 03:36:13 PM »
Hardly - the plain common Greek of today. Polytonika seem to survive only on Mount Athos. Monk Moses Hagiorites is the foremost example I can think of, whose Greek could be seen as katharevousa. He is my favourite contemporary hagiographer.

Sometimes I ask myself whether you're Greek.

A Geek, rather.  ;)


But I am flattered, nevertheless...

And then people call me crazy for my obsession with Greek  ;D


And yes, Geek should be a nationality.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 03:36:32 PM by Cyrillic »
"We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!"
-T.S. Eliot

Offline sheenj

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #71 on: February 21, 2013, 03:38:58 PM »

How do you do that?

If you use Windows 7 they have a program called Snipping Tool. It's under accessories and it lets you take screenshots by using your mouse to select the area you want saved. It also lets you highlight and mark up the picture before you save it.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #72 on: February 21, 2013, 03:59:19 PM »
Oh, that and Κριτὴς τῆς Οἰκουμένης - "Judge of the world"...

In some older documents I saw Κριτὴς τοῦ Κόσμου. Τhat one's even better.

Yeah, "Judge of the Universe" rulz!  ::)

It's even better than Vicar of Christ  ;D

One must needs be Vicar of Christ to judge the Universe: "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." (Mat. 28:18)

Ah well, I just laugh at all those poetic titles Patriarchs gave themselves through the ages. I guess they're not meant to be taken too serious.
Actually it was given (along with two crowns) by the Emperor of the Romans and the EP, whom Pope Theophilos II (1010-1020) had reconciled:
Quote
During his tenure as Patriarch the persecution of Christians By Al Hakim became even more fierce, and many of them became Islamists or sought refuge in other countries. During these years, Theophilos was living in Constantinople as he could not stay in Egypt . He intervened in the dispute between Emperor Vasilios Voulgaroktonos (975-1025) and Patriarch Sergios II of Constantinople (999-1019) on whether or not to enforce the law  of “solidarity”, and led the two to conciliation. From that time the Patriarch of Alexandria was given the title of “Judge of the Universe”, with the added privilege of wearing a second stole (Kritato).
http://www.patriarchateofalexandria.com/index.php?module=content&cid=001003&id=141&lang=en

Quote
the title of (Ecumenical judge was assumed by Theophilus, patriarch of Alexandria, A.D. 1000, on account of the reconciliation he eflected between the Emperor Basil III., and Sergius patriarch of Constantinople. The cause of the quarrel was that the patriarch had spoken ill of the emperor, and the emperor had laid violent hands on the patriarch. They had recourse to the judgment of the Lord of Alexandria, who having made two wax figures, one of the emperor and the other of the patriarch, cut out the tongue from that of the patriarch, and cut off the arm from that of the emperor; by which he intimated to each the severe punishments which they deserved, and which their exalted rank alone preserved them from suffering. Struck by the boldness and justice of his decision, they laid aside their mutual animosity, and as respective proofs of their gratitude to their judge, the patriarch placed on him his Epitrachelion (Omophorion) and the emperor his crown, and proclaimed him to be the (Ecumenical judge. In memory of this circumstance, the patriarch of Alexandria wears two Omophoria over his robes, and a double crown on his mitre.
http://books.google.com/books?id=4F8wAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA391&dq=Theophilos+Alexandria+Emperor+Basil+Sergius&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zn0mUaboAciz2gXN94DQCw&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Theophilos%20Alexandria%20Emperor%20Basil%20Sergius&f=false
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 04:02:24 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Romaios

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #73 on: February 21, 2013, 04:05:29 PM »
Actually it was given (along with two crowns) by the Emperor of the Romans and the EP, whom Pope Theophilos II (1010-1020) had reconciled:
Quote
During his tenure as Patriarch the persecution of Christians By Al Hakim became even more fierce, and many of them became Islamists or sought refuge in other countries. During these years, Theophilos was living in Constantinople as he could not stay in Egypt . He intervened in the dispute between Emperor Vasilios Voulgaroktonos (975-1025) and Patriarch Sergios II of Constantinople (999-1019) on whether or not to enforce the law  of “solidarity”, and led the two to conciliation. From that time the Patriarch of Alexandria was given the title of “Judge of the Universe”, with the added privilege of wearing a second stole (Kritato).
http://www.patriarchateofalexandria.com/index.php?module=content&cid=001003&id=141&lang=en

Quote
the title of (Ecumenical judge was assumed by Theophilus, patriarch of Alexandria, A.D. 1000, on account of the reconciliation he eflected between the Emperor Basil III., and Sergius patriarch of Constantinople. The cause of the quarrel was that the patriarch had spoken ill of the emperor, and the emperor had laid violent hands on the patriarch. They had recourse to the judgment of the Lord of Alexandria, who having made two wax figures, one of the emperor and the other of the patriarch, cut out the tongue from that of the patriarch, and cut off the arm from that of the emperor; by which he intimated to each the severe punishments which they deserved, and which their exalted rank alone preserved them from suffering. Struck by the boldness and justice of his decision, they laid aside their mutual animosity, and as respective proofs of their gratitude to their judge, the patriarch placed on him his Epitrachelion (Omophorion) and the emperor his crown, and proclaimed him to be the (Ecumenical judge. In memory of this circumstance, the patriarch of Alexandria wears two Omophoria over his robes, and a double crown on his mitre.
http://books.google.com/books?id=4F8wAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA391&dq=Theophilos+Alexandria+Emperor+Basil+Sergius&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zn0mUaboAciz2gXN94DQCw&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Theophilos%20Alexandria%20Emperor%20Basil%20Sergius&f=false

I didn't know that - very interesting!

Thank you, Isa.

Offline Romaios

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #74 on: February 21, 2013, 04:08:30 PM »
So, we should turn to the Pope of Alexandria for reconciliation whenever State and Church are at odds with each other...
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 04:10:37 PM by Romaios »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #75 on: February 21, 2013, 04:14:47 PM »
So, we should turn to the Pope of Alexandria for reconciliation whenever State and Church are at odds with each other...
Not so sure....the issue was on taxation, and I'm not sure it was resolved.
Private Religious Foundations in Byzantine Empire
 By John Philip Thomas
http://books.google.com/books?id=jCAl9udu8IwC&pg=PA164&dq=%22allelengyon+had+placed+on+ecclesiastical+institutions%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=AYEmUd_lB-ew2gX37IGICg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22allelengyon%20had%20placed%20on%20ecclesiastical%20institutions%22&f=false
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: An Orthodox Pope?
« Reply #76 on: February 21, 2013, 04:15:49 PM »
Actually it was given (along with two crowns) by the Emperor of the Romans and the EP, whom Pope Theophilos II (1010-1020) had reconciled:
Quote
During his tenure as Patriarch the persecution of Christians By Al Hakim became even more fierce, and many of them became Islamists or sought refuge in other countries. During these years, Theophilos was living in Constantinople as he could not stay in Egypt . He intervened in the dispute between Emperor Vasilios Voulgaroktonos (975-1025) and Patriarch Sergios II of Constantinople (999-1019) on whether or not to enforce the law  of “solidarity”, and led the two to conciliation. From that time the Patriarch of Alexandria was given the title of “Judge of the Universe”, with the added privilege of wearing a second stole (Kritato).
http://www.patriarchateofalexandria.com/index.php?module=content&cid=001003&id=141&lang=en

Quote
the title of (Ecumenical judge was assumed by Theophilus, patriarch of Alexandria, A.D. 1000, on account of the reconciliation he eflected between the Emperor Basil III., and Sergius patriarch of Constantinople. The cause of the quarrel was that the patriarch had spoken ill of the emperor, and the emperor had laid violent hands on the patriarch. They had recourse to the judgment of the Lord of Alexandria, who having made two wax figures, one of the emperor and the other of the patriarch, cut out the tongue from that of the patriarch, and cut off the arm from that of the emperor; by which he intimated to each the severe punishments which they deserved, and which their exalted rank alone preserved them from suffering. Struck by the boldness and justice of his decision, they laid aside their mutual animosity, and as respective proofs of their gratitude to their judge, the patriarch placed on him his Epitrachelion (Omophorion) and the emperor his crown, and proclaimed him to be the (Ecumenical judge. In memory of this circumstance, the patriarch of Alexandria wears two Omophoria over his robes, and a double crown on his mitre.
http://books.google.com/books?id=4F8wAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA391&dq=Theophilos+Alexandria+Emperor+Basil+Sergius&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zn0mUaboAciz2gXN94DQCw&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Theophilos%20Alexandria%20Emperor%20Basil%20Sergius&f=false

I didn't know that - very interesting!

Thank you, Isa.
No problem.  Btw, I originally learned the story from the Pope's deacon, as he was laying out HH's vestments.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth