Author Topic: Christ's Divinity?  (Read 2121 times)

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Offline Pericles

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Christ's Divinity?
« on: February 06, 2013, 02:18:50 PM »
Given that Christ is fully God, in that his divinity is absolute. The essential requirement of any religion that claims to be Christian, as religions that deny it are not Christian but a religion that denies Christ's humanity is still Christian:

Could it be that the disparity of terminology between EO and OO theology are two sides of the same coin, the priority and primacy of Christ's absolute divinity in relation to his humanity?

In EO theology this is realised in the second person of the Trinity and in OO theology in the incarnate nature. Regardless of what is affirmed about Christ's humanity, ether as a nature in and of itself hypostatically united in the Divine Person of the Son or as united without confusion in one divine nature.

The solution is that Christ's humanity is united with his divinity, in his divinity because Christ's humanity is fulfilled by his divinity, because Christ is absolutely God. IMHO
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 02:24:17 PM by Pericles »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2013, 02:26:48 PM »
because Christ is absolutely God. IMHO

In a monotheistic religion, I am not what the semantic value of such a clause is. What are the alternatives to absolutely? (In a quite literal sense this clause is heretical, it means that Christ is in manner in which He absolved of being God.)

In short, I am not sure of the point of the OP other than add unneeded and improper confusion to a properly confused issue.

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Offline Pericles

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2013, 02:37:29 PM »
In a monotheistic religion, I am not what the semantic value of such a clause is. What are the alternatives to absolutely? (In a quite literal sense this clause is heretical, it means that Christ is in manner in which He absolved of being God.)

It affirms an absolute form of monotheistic religion in distinction from a relative monotheistic religion, with distinct but dependent divine beings. Its axiomatic not heretical and contrarily absolves Christ of being man.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2013, 02:38:09 PM »
In a monotheistic religion, I am not what the semantic value of such a clause is. What are the alternatives to absolutely? (In a quite literal sense this clause is heretical, it means that Christ is in manner in which He absolved of being God.)

It affirms an absolute form of monotheistic religion in distinction from a relative monotheistic religion, with distinct but dependent divine beings. Its axiomatic not heretical and contrarily absolves Christ of being man.

Let me grab my jargon dictionary and get back to you! :)

Offline Pericles

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2013, 02:50:26 PM »
Let me grab my jargon dictionary and get back to you! :)

Yeah sorry it is a tad wordy. ;D
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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2013, 02:54:47 PM »
This thread is way above my paygrade.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2013, 03:04:27 PM »
In a monotheistic religion, I am not what the semantic value of such a clause is. What are the alternatives to absolutely? (In a quite literal sense this clause is heretical, it means that Christ is in manner in which He absolved of being God.)

It affirms an absolute form of monotheistic religion in distinction from a relative monotheistic religion, with distinct but dependent divine beings. Its axiomatic not heretical and contrarily absolves Christ of being man.

Your first sentence shows you are adding nothing but again extraneous and improper confusion to the subject. Your second sentence shows you didn't read what I wrote or don't understand English or the etymology of absolute.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 03:14:49 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2013, 03:13:37 PM »
Given that Christ is fully God, in that his divinity is absolute. The essential requirement of any religion that claims to be Christian, as religions that deny it are not Christian but a religion that denies Christ's humanity is still Christian
A religion claiming to be Christian that denies Christ's humanity is not Christian.
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Offline Pericles

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2013, 03:20:18 PM »
Your first sentence shows you are adding nothing but again extraneous and improper confusion to the subject. Your second sentence shows you did read what I wrote or don't understand English or the etymology of absolute.

A quaint deconstruction, congratulations. Thank your your reply however I prefer to entertain dialogue that engages with the subject. Thanks again.
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Offline Pericles

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2013, 03:32:30 PM »
A religion claiming to be Christian that denies Christ's humanity is not Christian.

That could well be a weak spot in my reasoning. It depends whos classifying the issue, academic or theological. Religions such as the Cathars and Albigenses would be categorised under Christian religions by academics. In fact so would Arianism because it at least it affirms a kind of divinity in Christ. Religions such as the Ebionites and Nazarenes that deny Christs divinity completely, get classed as Jewish.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2013, 03:38:55 PM »
Your first sentence shows you are adding nothing but again extraneous and improper confusion to the subject. Your second sentence shows you did read what I wrote or don't understand English or the etymology of absolute.

A quaint deconstruction, congratulations. Thank your your reply however I prefer to entertain dialogue that engages with the subject. Thanks again.

What is the subject again?

You don't seem to know or rather it seems you are trying to come with some idiosyncratic taxonomy for describing various "Christianities".
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2013, 03:41:21 PM »
A religion claiming to be Christian that denies Christ's humanity is not Christian.

That could well be a weak spot in my reasoning. It depends whos classifying the issue, academic or theological. Religions such as the Cathars and Albigenses would be categorised under Christian religions by academics. In fact so would Arianism because it at least it affirms a kind of divinity in Christ. Religions such as the Ebionites and Nazarenes that deny Christs divinity completely, get classed as Jewish.

What reasoning? You are begging questions. If you don't have the basic understanding that Orthodox Christianity starts from a radical statement about the divinity and humanity of Christ, then I am not sure what the reason is for posting here.
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Offline biro

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2013, 07:08:20 PM »
In a monotheistic religion, I am not what the semantic value of such a clause is. What are the alternatives to absolutely? (In a quite literal sense this clause is heretical, it means that Christ is in manner in which He absolved of being God.)

It affirms an absolute form of monotheistic religion in distinction from a relative monotheistic religion, with distinct but dependent divine beings. Its axiomatic not heretical and contrarily absolves Christ of being man.

What?

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2013, 07:12:55 PM »
A religion claiming to be Christian that denies Christ's humanity is not Christian.

That could well be a weak spot in my reasoning. It depends whos classifying the issue, academic or theological. Religions such as the Cathars and Albigenses would be categorised under Christian religions by academics. In fact so would Arianism because it at least it affirms a kind of divinity in Christ. Religions such as the Ebionites and Nazarenes that deny Christs divinity completely, get classed as Jewish.
If God was not incarnate, then there is no Christ, and therefore no Christian.

If the incarnate one was not God, then there is no salvation, and no Church.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 07:13:50 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline thethinker

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2013, 07:36:22 PM »
The solution is that Christ's humanity is united with his divinity, in his divinity because Christ's humanity is fulfilled by his divinity, because Christ is absolutely God. IMHO

Please explain what you mean in saying that Christ's humanity is "fulfilled" by His divinity.

Thank you!

Offline Melodist

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2013, 10:53:18 PM »
a religion that denies Christ's humanity is still Christian:

No it's not.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Pericles

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2013, 09:13:28 AM »
Please explain what you mean in saying that Christ's humanity is "fulfilled" by His divinity.

What I mean is, whatever we say about Christs Humanity, his incarnation and humanity is only possible because he is God.
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Offline Pericles

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2013, 09:52:15 AM »
Also we as humans are so in an exclusive and divided way, for us to be fully human is to be only human and divided from each other. Christs humanity is not exclusive because he is also divine, his humanity was perfect humanity because it was united in his divinity.
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Offline thethinker

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2013, 12:32:17 PM »
Also we as humans are so in an exclusive and divided way, for us to be fully human is to be only human and divided from each other. Christs humanity is not exclusive because he is also divine, his humanity was perfect humanity because it was united in his divinity.

This would imply that the first Adam was not created perfect and could not have been created perfect.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2013, 12:36:27 PM »
Also we as humans are so in an exclusive and divided way, for us to be fully human is to be only human and divided from each other. Christs humanity is not exclusive because he is also divine, his humanity was perfect humanity because it was united in his divinity.

This would imply that the first Adam was not created perfect and could not have been created perfect.

Adam was not. And arguably could not have been. But the implications of Pericles' misunderstanding are worse than your confusion about it.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 12:36:55 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline thethinker

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2013, 12:39:34 PM »
Also we as humans are so in an exclusive and divided way, for us to be fully human is to be only human and divided from each other. Christs humanity is not exclusive because he is also divine, his humanity was perfect humanity because it was united in his divinity.

This would imply that the first Adam was not created perfect and could not have been created perfect.

Adam was not. And arguably could not have been. But the implications of Pericles' misunderstanding are worse than your confusion about it.

Why do you say I am confused when I have spoken no proposition?  ??? I simply made an inference from what Pericles said.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 12:40:02 PM by thethinker »

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2013, 12:42:33 PM »
What I mean is, whatever we say about Christs Humanity, his incarnation and humanity is only possible because he is God.
Does it not then follow that Pericles's incarnation and humanity are possible only because he is God? And then every incarnate being is God?
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Offline Pericles

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2013, 12:45:25 PM »
This would imply that the first Adam was not created perfect and could not have been created perfect.
It implies Adam wasn't divine but he was created as a perfect human.
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Offline Pericles

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2013, 12:48:34 PM »
Does it not then follow that Pericles's incarnation and humanity are possible only because he is God? And then every incarnate being is God?
Not at all, Pericles is not a divine incarnation.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2013, 12:51:34 PM »
Also we as humans are so in an exclusive and divided way, for us to be fully human is to be only human and divided from each other. Christs humanity is not exclusive because he is also divine, his humanity was perfect humanity because it was united in his divinity.

This would imply that the first Adam was not created perfect and could not have been created perfect.

Adam was not. And arguably could not have been. But the implications of Pericles' misunderstanding are worse than your confusion about it.

Why do you say I am confused when I have spoken no proposition?  ??? I simply made an inference from what Pericles said.

Is this private? Oh, I can't use my chocolate cake with chocolate icing and creme filing snacks. So, we'll repeat something from yesterday:

Also we as humans are so in an exclusive and divided way, for us to be fully human is to be only human and divided from each other. Christs humanity is not exclusive because he is also divine, his humanity was perfect humanity because it was united in his divinity.

This would imply that the first Adam was not created perfect and could not have been created perfect.

Adam was not. And arguably could not have been. But the implications of Pericles' misunderstanding are worse than your confusion about it.

Why do you say I am confused when I have spoken no proposition?  ??? I simply made an inference from what Pericles said.

?SYNTAX ERROR

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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2013, 12:54:18 PM »
Does it not then follow that Pericles's incarnation and humanity are possible only because he is God? And then every incarnate being is God?
Not at all, Pericles is not a divine incarnation.

Are you talking about yourself in the third person or about another Pericles perhaps that most famous one whose memory [redacted]?
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2013, 12:55:12 PM »
This would imply that the first Adam was not created perfect and could not have been created perfect.
It implies Adam wasn't divine but he was created as a perfect human.

It implies you don't understand much of Orthodox anthropology.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2013, 04:01:17 PM »
I'll be honest, I feel I'm the most confused in this thread.  ???
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Offline thethinker

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2013, 07:47:25 PM »
Pericles,

First you said this:

Christs humanity is not exclusive because he is also divine, his humanity was perfect humanity because it was united in his divinity.

Then I replied saying:

This would imply that the first Adam was not created perfect and could not have been created perfect.

But now you say this:

It implies Adam wasn't divine but he was created as a perfect human.

If Christ was a perfect human because His humanity was joined to His divinity, then Adam could NOT have been created a perfect human. If he was created perfect, then he was created divine.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 07:48:24 PM by thethinker »

Offline Pericles

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2013, 08:01:13 PM »
If Christ was a perfect human because His humanity was joined to His divinity, then Adam could NOT have been created a perfect human. If he was created perfect, then he was created divine.
Yeah ok I'm being imprecise. Christ's humanity is not exclusive but united with his divinity and therefore perfect on that account. Man was created perfect and exclusively human.
Does that clarify it?
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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2013, 03:21:41 AM »
Man was created perfect
No.

Man was created unfallen.
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Offline Pericles

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2013, 03:44:25 AM »
No.
Man was created unfallen.
I've just checked a few facts, first I was using a faulty definition of perfect and was of the understanding that Orthodoxy taught that man was created perfect. Now I know this is not the case, I withdraw my statements that man was created perfect. It was in any case not a part of my OP and was becoming an obstacle to defending it.


« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 04:07:45 AM by Pericles »
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Offline thethinker

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2013, 12:19:59 PM »
If Christ was a perfect human because His humanity was joined to His divinity, then Adam could NOT have been created a perfect human. If he was created perfect, then he was created divine.
Yeah ok I'm being imprecise. Christ's humanity is not exclusive but united with his divinity and therefore perfect on that account. Man was created perfect and exclusively human.
Does that clarify it?

Adam was NOT created perfect because he was was created peccable. He was created upright, and fell NOT from perfection but from uprightness.

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2013, 12:27:15 PM »
Adam was NOT created perfect because he was was created peccable.
No, mankind only acquired a predisposition toward sin, against good, after the Fall. The first sin was freely chosen.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2013, 05:46:47 PM »
Adam was NOT created perfect because he was was created peccable.
No, mankind only acquired a predisposition toward sin, against good, after the Fall. The first sin was freely chosen.

In any case, thethinker has a problem with the logical relation formed by because.
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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2013, 06:40:06 PM »
If it is a sin to be peccish, then why do we fast?
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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Offline thethinker

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2013, 07:55:51 PM »
Perfect: Without fault or defect (Merriam-Webster's)

Adam was created from dust. Paul attributes "weakness" to dust BEFORE the fall (1 Corinthians 15:42-45).  Weakness is defect. Therefore, Adam was NOT created perfect because he was created from dust.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2013, 07:58:16 PM »
Perfect: Without fault or defect (Merriam-Webster's)

Adam was created from dust. Paul attributes "weakness" to dust BEFORE the fall (1 Corinthians 15:42-45).  Weakness is defect. Therefore, Adam was NOT created perfect because he was created from dust.

Merriam-Webster is not Biblical, I'm going to need you to give me a biblical definition of perfect please ;)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 07:58:29 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2013, 08:34:53 PM »
Perfect: Without fault or defect (Merriam-Webster's)

Adam was created from dust. Paul attributes "weakness" to dust BEFORE the fall (1 Corinthians 15:42-45).  Weakness is defect. Therefore, Adam was NOT created perfect because he was created from dust.

Still don't have that because thing down? If you are ESL, I understand and will gladly help you.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2013, 11:51:51 PM »
Given that Christ is fully God, in that his divinity is absolute. The essential requirement of any religion that claims to be Christian, as religions that deny it are not Christian but a religion that denies Christ's humanity is still Christian
A religion claiming to be Christian that denies Christ's humanity is not Christian.

Amen.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2013, 11:55:26 PM »
I'll be honest, I feel I'm the most confused in this thread.  ???

I don't think so. You have not confused the two natures together, nor confused one for the other, nor confused one without the other. You're set.
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2013, 12:56:16 AM »


The solution is that Christ's humanity is united with his divinity, in his divinity because Christ's humanity is fulfilled by his divinity, because Christ is absolutely God. IMHO

Isn't there a risk of overstating the affects of divinity on humanity?  The essential take over of human nature by divinity to such a degree that it would lead to a nullification of the human nature in the process. This wouldn't go well with the known phrases that we hold to. Such as fully human and full divine that we always hear.
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2013, 01:16:22 AM »
 :laugh:
I'll be honest, I feel I'm the most confused in this thread.  ???

I don't think so. You have not confused the two natures together, nor confused one for the other, nor confused one without the other. You're set.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline xariskai

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2013, 02:20:06 AM »
Given that Christ is fully God, in that his divinity is absolute. The essential requirement of any religion that claims to be Christian, as religions that deny it are not Christian but a religion that denies Christ's humanity is still Christian
A religion claiming to be Christian that denies Christ's humanity is not Christian.
Indeed; Docetism was one of the earliest heresies the Church rejected, in the pages of the NT itself.

"Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist." -2 Jn 1:7
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 02:23:41 AM by xariskai »

Offline thethinker

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Re: Christ's Divinity?
« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2013, 09:41:27 AM »
Perfect: Without fault or defect (Merriam-Webster's)

Adam was created from dust. Paul attributes "weakness" to dust BEFORE the fall (1 Corinthians 15:42-45).  Weakness is defect. Therefore, Adam was NOT created perfect because he was created from dust.

Merriam-Webster is not Biblical, I'm going to need you to give me a biblical definition of perfect please ;)

Is what Paul said biblical? He said that the first man was from dust and that the second man was from heaven. Therefore, the first man could not have been created perfect.