Author Topic: Brother Nathaniel  (Read 40165 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #495 on: July 26, 2013, 05:45:00 PM »
Christ is God's Word, the Logos, incarnated.  I think it means Christ is the Logos in a metaphysical sense- God the Father "Speaking" the Word, or Begetting Christ in also that way.
The Bible is also God's word. Would that make them different "Words"?

Not different in terms of revelation, though there is primacy of order: the Scriptures are God's word because they testify to the Word made flesh--their "Wordness" derives from Christ.  But Jesus is not a book, and neither is the book Jesus.  If I go to a Barnes and Noble and ask for the Bible section, I'm not in heaven when I get there: I'm in the Bible section of Barnes and Noble.   

ISTM that affirming that the Name of God is an energy of God (and thus God himself) takes something more "material" and makes it divine.  If the name "Jesus" is a divine energy, why not the book "Bible", or the wooden ornament "Cross", or the image "Icon"?  That sounds like idolatry to me. 

If the adherent of this belief wants to cease engaging this topic because it's not worth it to cast pearls before swine, then I'm quite happy to be a Christian pig.  Better that than an idolater.   
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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #496 on: July 26, 2013, 05:47:47 PM »
Me too, especially as the pearls are low value cultured ones.....

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #497 on: July 26, 2013, 10:40:39 PM »
Marc, how is it that you have all these direct connections to Bishops and Metropolitans?  You better watch out or they are going to force you into the episcopacy like they did w/ St. Gregory of Nyssa.

Just lucky

Our Parrish is a small mission but with very experienced clergy and choir. Half the choir has degree's in musicology or some such. So lots of folks like to visit and take a break from the pressure of a high attendance Church... We even get most of the wonder working icons too.

The Kursk root icon was at our Parrish several times. The one that drew crowds of 800,000 or so in Russia when it visited. We had it all to ourselves..Drink some coffee... go up to it again at our leasure. People stood on line for hour after hour just for a momentary glimpse but we had it hour after hour, just 30 or 40 people... Bishops, Outlaw Mets, erstwhile nuns, streaming icons all show up..  
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 10:43:42 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #498 on: July 26, 2013, 10:50:38 PM »
Marc, how is it that you have all these direct connections to Bishops and Metropolitans?  You better watch out or they are going to force you into the episcopacy like they did w/ St. Gregory of Nyssa.

Just lucky

Our Parrish is a small mission but with very experienced clergy and choir. Half the choir has degree's in musicology or some such. So lots of folks like to visit and take a break from the pressure of a high attendance Church... We even get most of the wonder working icons too.

The Kursk root icon was at our Parrish several times. The one that drew crowds of 800,000 or so in Russia when it visited. We had it all to ourselves..Drink some coffee... go up to it again at our leasure. People stood on line for hour after hour just for a momentary glimpse but we had it hour after hour, just 30 or 40 people... Bishops, Outlaw Mets, erstwhile nuns, streaming icons all show up..  
That does sound like a wonderful opportunity!  If it comes again, let us know because I would love to have the honor of venerating it.  DC isn't too far from me.
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #499 on: July 27, 2013, 12:10:54 AM »
I consider ROCOR to have always been heretical from the day it was founded by Archbishop Khrapovitsky who was a heretic on many levels including blatant oecumenism with the Anglicans, Onomaclasm (Name fighting), and Stavroclasm (war against the Cross). 
As far as ecclesiology is concerned, my personal belief is that ROCOR's union with the MP was a move from bad to worse, and Archbishop Kyrill helped facilitate this apostasy.
Brother Nathaniel is one of the best things the ROCOR have going for them, and his background in "true orthodox" jurisdictions indicates that he has at least had an interest in pursuing the truth.

The truth is that the ROCOR is lucky to even have Brother Nathaniel.

What?  Onomaclasm?  Stavroclasm?  I've never heard of those asms before...

Onomaclasm sounds like the opposite to Name-worshipping, the latter is a declared heresy. If Dionysii is saying that ROCOR is against name-worship, then that is true, and it leaves him in a rather sticky situation.

He was quite sticky before.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #500 on: July 27, 2013, 12:12:37 AM »
Are name fighters onomaclasts or onomatomachoi?  The latter sounds better. 


Are you against onomatopoeia in liturgy?
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #501 on: July 27, 2013, 12:15:26 AM »

The Name of God is an Energy of God.  The Name of God is God Himself.



Just as I suspected.  :(

This, my dear Dionysii, is Name-worshipping (Imiaslavie), which has been condemned as heresy by a council at Constantinople in 1912, presided by the Patriarch of Constantinople, and by the Holy Synod in Moscow in 1918, headed by Patriarch Tikhon.



And it's a heresy that post-dates the Nikonian schism, which makes it odd that an Old Believer would go for it. It wouldn't be their first oddity.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #502 on: July 27, 2013, 12:17:34 AM »
Marc, how is it that you have all these direct connections to Bishops and Metropolitans?  You better watch out or they are going to force you into the episcopacy like they did w/ St. Gregory of Nyssa.

You mean St. Gregory of Nazianzus?
Perhaps.  Too many Gregories.  :D

Stop your blasphemy. There can never be too many Gregories!
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #503 on: July 27, 2013, 12:18:37 AM »
He may be thinking of St. Gregory the Theologian, who was indeed essentially forced into becoming a bishop. St. Gregory of Nyssa was also pressured into the clergy, though that process was more about Sts. Basil and Gregory Nazianzen trying to guilt him into it, IIRC.

Every eligible man known to St. Basil was pressured into becoming a bishop. This is how we know the early Church did not have women bishops. If it did, St. Basil would've had his sister made a bishop as well.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #504 on: July 27, 2013, 12:24:21 AM »
I consider ROCOR to have always been heretical from the day it was founded by Archbishop Khrapovitsky who was a heretic on many levels including blatant oecumenism with the Anglicans, Onomaclasm (Name fighting), and Stavroclasm (war against the Cross). 
As far as ecclesiology is concerned, my personal belief is that ROCOR's union with the MP was a move from bad to worse, and Archbishop Kyrill helped facilitate this apostasy.
Brother Nathaniel is one of the best things the ROCOR have going for them, and his background in "true orthodox" jurisdictions indicates that he has at least had an interest in pursuing the truth.

The truth is that the ROCOR is lucky to even have Brother Nathaniel.

What?  Onomaclasm?  Stavroclasm?  I've never heard of those asms before...

Onomaclasm sounds like the opposite to Name-worshipping, the latter is a declared heresy. If Dionysii is saying that ROCOR is against name-worship, then that is true, and it leaves him in a rather sticky situation.

He was quite sticky before.

... and this only adds to the stickiness.  :P
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #505 on: July 27, 2013, 02:32:36 PM »
Our Parrish is a small mission but with very experienced clergy and choir. The Kursk root icon was at our Parrish several times.
Curious why you spelled it like the last name. Of course, we all make typos...

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #506 on: August 21, 2013, 02:18:25 PM »
I understand Name fighting to be a denial of the power of God. 
It is the heresy of Barlaam and the Frankish scholastics which denies the energy of God is God.

The Name of God is an Energy of God.  The Name of God is God Himself.
This is true since the energy of God is God Himself as Saint Gregory Palamas and others have truly said.

Oh.  So you're a heretic.  OK. 

How is the Name of God a divine energy?  Is an icon also a divine energy?  What about the Cross?  The Bible?  Are these things also God?

Idolatry. 

Mor Ephrem,

For what it's worth, I think you should have the right to state your beliefs as you have even if I think you are in error. 

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #507 on: August 21, 2013, 02:53:58 PM »
I understand Name fighting to be a denial of the power of God.  
It is the heresy of Barlaam and the Frankish scholastics which denies the energy of God is God.

The Name of God is an Energy of God.  The Name of God is God Himself.
This is true since the energy of God is God Himself as Saint Gregory Palamas and others have truly said.
How is the Name of God a divine energy?  Is an icon also a divine energy?  What about the Cross?  The Bible?  Are these things also God?

As I understand, unlike the Name of God, neither crosses nor icons are themselves energies of God.
My prayer books instruct me to pray every morning to the power of the holy cross rather than the cross itself.  
I understand this power to be God Himself, an uncreated energy of God.  
Canonical Christian ikons and crosses can convey certain of the energies of God if they have the Name of God inscribed upon them.  
Saint Gregory Palamas has in fact stated that it is pointless to venerate a cross that is void of the Name of God.  
Likewise, Saint John of Damascus has stated that holy ikons receive power when the Name of God is inscribed upon them.  
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 02:55:01 PM by Dionysii »

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #508 on: August 21, 2013, 03:04:24 PM »

The Name of God is an Energy of God.  The Name of God is God Himself.



Just as I suspected.  :(

This, my dear Dionysii, is Name-worshipping (Imiaslavie), which has been condemned as heresy by a council at Constantinople in 1912, presided by the Patriarch of Constantinople, and by the Holy Synod in Moscow in 1918, headed by Patriarch Tikhon.



And it's a heresy that post-dates the Nikonian schism, which makes it odd that an Old Believer would go for it. It wouldn't be their first oddity.

I am shocked that this heresy still continues. Lord have mercy.

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #509 on: August 21, 2013, 03:22:41 PM »
Don't worship the Name of God.  Just don't take it in vain.  Now, the Word of God is to be worshiped.
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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #510 on: August 21, 2013, 05:26:33 PM »

The Name of God is an Energy of God.  The Name of God is God Himself.



Just as I suspected.  :(

This, my dear Dionysii, is Name-worshipping (Imiaslavie), which has been condemned as heresy by a council at Constantinople in 1912, presided by the Patriarch of Constantinople, and by the Holy Synod in Moscow in 1918, headed by Patriarch Tikhon.



And it's a heresy that post-dates the Nikonian schism, which makes it odd that an Old Believer would go for it. It wouldn't be their first oddity.

I am shocked that this heresy still continues. Lord have mercy.

Without taking sides on the question, I'll just point out that the imiaslavie controversy is far less cut-and-dried than folks here seem to believe.

Archimandrite Sophrony of blessed memory compared the controversy to one between poets and technocrats. Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev says:

Even though the movement of the “Name-worshippers” was crushed at the beginning of the century on the orders of the Holy Synod, discussion of the matter regained impetus in the years preceding the Moscow Council (1917-18), which was supposed to come to a decision about this but did not succeed in doing so. Thus the Church’s final assessment of Name-worshipping remains an open question to this day.

I would emphasise that this is by no means simply an issue of local concern, nor of merely historic interest, but a matter of no less theological significance than the argument between “Palamites” and “Barlaamites” in the middle of the fourteenth century. Name-worshipping was an expression of the centuries-old Athonite tradition of the activity (prayer) of the mind, while the “synodal” theologians were backed by the traditions of Russian academic scholarship. Study of the conflict on the worship of the Name could illuminate the mutual relations between the monastic theology of the experience and the “academic” theology of educational institutions.


Let that be a caution to someone who would characterize imiaslavie as "post-schism".

I have also seen, in a commentary on the "Our Father," the identification of the Name (as in, the name we hallow) with the Son:

For the name of God the father who subsists essentially is the only-begotten Son.

Offline Dionysii

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #511 on: August 21, 2013, 05:43:22 PM »
Without taking sides on the question, I'll just point out that the imiaslavie controversy is far less cut-and-dried than folks here seem to believe.

Archimandrite Sophrony of blessed memory compared the controversy to one between poets and technocrats. Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev says:

Even though the movement of the “Name-worshippers” was crushed at the beginning of the century on the orders of the Holy Synod, discussion of the matter regained impetus in the years preceding the Moscow Council (1917-18), which was supposed to come to a decision about this but did not succeed in doing so. Thus the Church’s final assessment of Name-worshipping remains an open question to this day.

I would emphasise that this is by no means simply an issue of local concern, nor of merely historic interest, but a matter of no less theological significance than the argument between “Palamites” and “Barlaamites” in the middle of the fourteenth century. Name-worshipping was an expression of the centuries-old Athonite tradition of the activity (prayer) of the mind, while the “synodal” theologians were backed by the traditions of Russian academic scholarship. Study of the conflict on the worship of the Name could illuminate the mutual relations between the monastic theology of the experience and the “academic” theology of educational institutions.


Let that be a caution to someone who would characterize imiaslavie as "post-schism".

I have also seen, in a commentary on the "Our Father," the identification of the Name (as in, the name we hallow) with the Son:

For the name of God the father who subsists essentially is the only-begotten Son.

beautiful post!

Offline Maria

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #512 on: August 21, 2013, 05:57:41 PM »

The Name of God is an Energy of God.  The Name of God is God Himself.



Just as I suspected.  :(

This, my dear Dionysii, is Name-worshipping (Imiaslavie), which has been condemned as heresy by a council at Constantinople in 1912, presided by the Patriarch of Constantinople, and by the Holy Synod in Moscow in 1918, headed by Patriarch Tikhon.



And it's a heresy that post-dates the Nikonian schism, which makes it odd that an Old Believer would go for it. It wouldn't be their first oddity.

I am shocked that this heresy still continues. Lord have mercy.

Oh, yes, this heresy still continues, but the adherents are very deceptive as they try to give this heresy a new name and then deny that it is Name-Worshipping. Instead, they call it Name-Glorifying and accuse anti-Name Glorifiers (as they call us) of failing to give honor and glory to the Name of Jesus.

This heresy is being promoted in HOCNA, which is headquartered in Brookline, MA. Met. Ephraim gave his flock an ultimatum to accept the Name-Worshipping and Awake Sleepers' heresies or leave. Awake Sleepers is a form of universalism. About half the parishioners and parishioners left Met. Ephraim and his church in 2012 due to this heresy.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 06:17:42 PM by Maria »
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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #513 on: August 27, 2013, 07:17:46 PM »
It is unfortunate that such kooks as Brother Nathaniel and HOCNA were ever part of ROCOR. Is Brother Nathaniel a self-hating Jew? If so, that would explain his anti-Zionist tirades. But the question is: why does Brother Nathaniel use ROCOR as his platform. HOCNA was a group that was formed when Archimandrite Panteleimon (Metropolous) was deposed from ROCOR, and has a very sordid history.

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #514 on: September 02, 2013, 11:18:20 PM »
I agree with the comments other posters have made here, and Br. Nathaniel's status is confusing. On one hand, he is Orthodox, belongs to a canonical diocese, and is a Novice monk. He has the approval of two hierarchs, including the primate and that of his home diocese, for his campaign.

On the other hand, he is living in a diocese whose hierarch, the chancellor, officially opposes his campaign. Plus, he over-dresses for a monk, considering the white kobluk, which a Novice would not wear. His dress is showy, and Novices are not supposed to be.

He cannot be in weekly communion in his home diocese for distance reasons. Even if he is living as a hermit and has approval for that, can he still be said to be in regular communion with his home parish as he claims?

Obviously he is Orthodox, but he is not following the normal rules in the Church.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 11:21:06 PM by rakovsky »

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #515 on: September 03, 2013, 10:53:57 AM »
I agree with the comments other posters have made here, and Br. Nathaniel's status is confusing. On one hand, he is Orthodox, belongs to a canonical diocese, and is a Novice monk. He has the approval of two hierarchs, including the primate and that of his home diocese, for his campaign.

On the other hand, he is living in a diocese whose hierarch, the chancellor, officially opposes his campaign. Plus, he over-dresses for a monk, considering the white kobluk, which a Novice would not wear. His dress is showy, and Novices are not supposed to be.

He cannot be in weekly communion in his home diocese for distance reasons. Even if he is living as a hermit and has approval for that, can he still be said to be in regular communion with his home parish as he claims?

Obviously he is Orthodox, but he is not following the normal rules in the Church.

This thread is a bad penny, which keeps resurfacing.

What part of this statement issued in July 2013 from the Chauncey of the Holy Synod of ROCOR is confusing?

"The Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia has recently received repeated complaints about the activities of and statements made by a certain Nathanael (Kapner), who lives on the territory of the Western American Diocese, but has no relation to it.
The clergymen and laity of the Russian Church Abroad are hereby informed that the actions of Nathanael (Kapner) do not have the blessing of the Synod of Bishops.

Profoundly saddened by the state of his soul, we call upon Nathanael (Kapner) to refrain from posting on the Internet, to a life of repentance of peace in Christ, “where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all” (Colossians 3:11).
+KYRILL,
Archbishop of Western America and San Francisco
Secretary of the Synod of Bishops."
http://www.pravmir.com/statement-from-the-chancery-of-the-rocor-synod-of-bishops/

The Synod does not indicate that Nathaniel (Kepner) has  any status in the ROCOR. Bishop Kyrill signed the document as Synodal Secretary speaking for, and on behalf of his Synod -not just as a Diocesan Bishop.

Nathaniel (Kepner's) actions, or "campaign" clearly do NOT have the current blessings of the ROCOR based on the plain, unambiguous wording of the Synod.

As to his status as an Orthodox Christian, I can not speculate, but we should pray that he need the advice offered him by the Synod.

Offline mike

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #516 on: September 03, 2013, 11:18:31 AM »
"Novice monk" is an oxymoron.
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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #517 on: September 03, 2013, 11:31:05 AM »
Br Nathaniel is our modern day Don Quixote.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #518 on: September 03, 2013, 11:43:27 AM »
Br Nathaniel is our modern day Don Quixote.

Dostoevsky considered Don Quixote to be one of the few good attempts at a truly beautiful and Christlike character in fiction. Is Br. Nathaniel then a Christlike person to be emulated? And/or perhaps a modern day fool for Christ? Is that where you are going with this?  8)

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #519 on: September 03, 2013, 02:14:50 PM »
What part of this statement issued in July 2013 from the Chauncey of the Holy Synod of ROCOR is confusing?

"The Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia has recently received repeated complaints about the activities of and statements made by a certain Nathanael (Kapner), who lives on the territory of the Western American Diocese, but has no relation to it.
The clergymen and laity of the Russian Church Abroad are hereby informed that the actions of Nathanael (Kapner) do not have the blessing of the Synod of Bishops.
Profoundly saddened by the state of his soul, we call upon Nathanael (Kapner) to refrain from posting on the Internet, to a life of repentance of peace in Christ, “where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all” (Colossians 3:11).
+KYRILL,
Archbishop of Western America and San Francisco
Secretary of the Synod of Bishops."

The Synod does not indicate that Nathaniel (Kepner) has  any status in the ROCOR. Bishop Kyrill signed the document as Synodal Secretary speaking for, and on behalf of his Synod -not just as a Diocesan Bishop. Nathaniel (Kepner's) actions, or "campaign" clearly do NOT have the current blessings of the ROCOR based on the plain, unambiguous wording of the Synod. As to his status as an Orthodox Christian, I can not speculate, but we should pray that he need the advice offered him by the Synod.
Good point, PodKarpatska. When the Chancellor writes "we", the most likely meaning is that he means "we," the Synod," not "we the chancery", right?

One of the two hierarchs who supported him was Bp. Jerome, who was recently censured and retired by the Synod in relation to his work in the Western Rite:
http://eadiocese.org/News/2013/july/synod.en.htm

That leaves Metr. Hilarion. His approval wouldn't carry over the disapproval of the Synod, would it?

The Mystagogy website comments:
Quote
He also wears a white skuphos which is only reserved for Metropolitans in the Slavic churches, and a pectoral cross which is forbidden to novices.

Further, he has a cross tucked under his belt. That is not correct, is it?

It is noteworthy that the statement does not call him "Brother" Nathanael. It seems to me he was only a Novice with a non-canonical sect.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 02:29:48 PM by rakovsky »

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #520 on: September 03, 2013, 04:57:46 PM »
I agree with the comments other posters have made here, and Br. Nathaniel's status is confusing. On one hand, he is Orthodox, belongs to a canonical diocese, and is a Novice monk. He has the approval of two hierarchs, including the primate and that of his home diocese, for his campaign.

On the other hand, he is living in a diocese whose hierarch, the chancellor, officially opposes his campaign. Plus, he over-dresses for a monk, considering the white kobluk, which a Novice would not wear. His dress is showy, and Novices are not supposed to be.

He cannot be in weekly communion in his home diocese for distance reasons. Even if he is living as a hermit and has approval for that, can he still be said to be in regular communion with his home parish as he claims?

Obviously he is Orthodox, but he is not following the normal rules in the Church.

This thread is a bad penny, which keeps resurfacing.

What part of this statement issued in July 2013 from the Chauncey of the Holy Synod of ROCOR is confusing?

"The Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia has recently received repeated complaints about the activities of and statements made by a certain Nathanael (Kapner), who lives on the territory of the Western American Diocese, but has no relation to it.
The clergymen and laity of the Russian Church Abroad are hereby informed that the actions of Nathanael (Kapner) do not have the blessing of the Synod of Bishops.

Profoundly saddened by the state of his soul, we call upon Nathanael (Kapner) to refrain from posting on the Internet, to a life of repentance of peace in Christ, “where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all” (Colossians 3:11).
+KYRILL,
Archbishop of Western America and San Francisco
Secretary of the Synod of Bishops."
http://www.pravmir.com/statement-from-the-chancery-of-the-rocor-synod-of-bishops/

The Synod does not indicate that Nathaniel (Kepner) has  any status in the ROCOR. Bishop Kyrill signed the document as Synodal Secretary speaking for, and on behalf of his Synod -not just as a Diocesan Bishop.

Nathaniel (Kepner's) actions, or "campaign" clearly do NOT have the current blessings of the ROCOR based on the plain, unambiguous wording of the Synod.

As to his status as an Orthodox Christian, I can not speculate, but we should pray that he need the advice offered him by the Synod.

Thanks for this.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #521 on: September 03, 2013, 09:01:12 PM »
I agree with the comments other posters have made here, and Br. Nathaniel's status is confusing. On one hand, he is Orthodox, belongs to a canonical diocese, and is a Novice monk. He has the approval of two hierarchs, including the primate and that of his home diocese, for his campaign.

On the other hand, he is living in a diocese whose hierarch, the chancellor, officially opposes his campaign. Plus, he over-dresses for a monk, considering the white kobluk, which a Novice would not wear. His dress is showy, and Novices are not supposed to be.

He cannot be in weekly communion in his home diocese for distance reasons. Even if he is living as a hermit and has approval for that, can he still be said to be in regular communion with his home parish as he claims?

Obviously he is Orthodox, but he is not following the normal rules in the Church.

He has the approval of two hierarchs, including the primate and that of his home diocese, for his campaign.


Excuse me ? Source please

The clergymen and laity of the Russian Church Abroad are hereby informed that the actions of Nathanael (Kapner) do not have the blessing of the Synod of Bishops.

Is English not your first language?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 09:04:27 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #522 on: September 03, 2013, 10:28:32 PM »
Br Nathaniel is our modern day Don Quixote.

Dostoevsky considered Don Quixote to be one of the few good attempts at a truly beautiful and Christlike character in fiction. Is Br. Nathaniel then a Christlike person to be emulated? And/or perhaps a modern day fool for Christ? Is that where you are going with this?  8)

No. Dostoyevsky was simply on drugs at the time he made such comments, if he made such a comment. I remember it being someone else.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #523 on: September 03, 2013, 10:29:47 PM »
I agree with the comments other posters have made here, and Br. Nathaniel's status is confusing. On one hand, he is Orthodox, belongs to a canonical diocese, and is a Novice monk. He has the approval of two hierarchs, including the primate and that of his home diocese, for his campaign.

On the other hand, he is living in a diocese whose hierarch, the chancellor, officially opposes his campaign. Plus, he over-dresses for a monk, considering the white kobluk, which a Novice would not wear. His dress is showy, and Novices are not supposed to be.

He cannot be in weekly communion in his home diocese for distance reasons. Even if he is living as a hermit and has approval for that, can he still be said to be in regular communion with his home parish as he claims?

Obviously he is Orthodox, but he is not following the normal rules in the Church.

He has the approval of two hierarchs, including the primate and that of his home diocese, for his campaign.


Excuse me ? Source please

The clergymen and laity of the Russian Church Abroad are hereby informed that the actions of Nathanael (Kapner) do not have the blessing of the Synod of Bishops.

Is English not your first language?

Perhaps non-ROCOR hierarchs?
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #524 on: September 03, 2013, 10:51:34 PM »
I agree with the comments other posters have made here, and Br. Nathaniel's status is confusing. On one hand, he is Orthodox, belongs to a canonical diocese, and is a Novice monk. He has the approval of two hierarchs, including the primate and that of his home diocese, for his campaign.

On the other hand, he is living in a diocese whose hierarch, the chancellor, officially opposes his campaign. Plus, he over-dresses for a monk, considering the white kobluk, which a Novice would not wear. His dress is showy, and Novices are not supposed to be.

He cannot be in weekly communion in his home diocese for distance reasons. Even if he is living as a hermit and has approval for that, can he still be said to be in regular communion with his home parish as he claims?

Obviously he is Orthodox, but he is not following the normal rules in the Church.

He has the approval of two hierarchs, including the primate and that of his home diocese, for his campaign.


Excuse me ? Source please

The clergymen and laity of the Russian Church Abroad are hereby informed that the actions of Nathanael (Kapner) do not have the blessing of the Synod of Bishops.

Is English not your first language?

I think he adequately addressed this above.

If  you disagree pm me.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #525 on: September 03, 2013, 10:57:50 PM »
Br Nathaniel is our modern day Don Quixote.

Dostoevsky considered Don Quixote to be one of the few good attempts at a truly beautiful and Christlike character in fiction. Is Br. Nathaniel then a Christlike person to be emulated? And/or perhaps a modern day fool for Christ? Is that where you are going with this?  8)

No. Dostoyevsky was simply on drugs at the time he made such comments, if he made such a comment. I remember it being someone else.

Looking back at the letter again I have, perhaps, read my own interpretation into what he said. Or perhaps I am thinking of the interpretation of someone else and just don't remember who. Or perhaps I have understood his meaning. Regardless, here is what I was thinking of when I wrote that:

Quote
The idea of the novel is an old and favorite one of mine, but so difficult that for a long time I dared not tackle it, and if I have tackled it now, it was definitely only because my situation was almost desperate. The main idea of the novel [The Idiot] is to present a positively beautiful human being... There is only one positively beautiful character in the world--Christ, so that the appearance of this boundlessly, infinitely beautiful person is of course an infinite miracle in itself (the entire Gospel of St. John is [written] in this sense; he finds the whole miracle in the incarnation alone, the manifestation of the beautiful). But I have run on too far. I will only mention that of beautiful characters in Christian literature the most finished is Don Quixote. But he is beautiful only because he is at the same time ridiculous. Dicken's Pickwick (an infinitely weaker conception than Don Quixote but nevertheless immense) is also ridiculous, and succeeds because of this. There is compassion for the beautiful that is mocked and does not know its own value--and consequently there is sympathy in the reader. The awakening of compassion is the secret of humor. Jean Valjean is also a powerful attempt--but he awakens sympathy by his terrible unhappiness and the injustice of society towards him...

-- Fyodor Dostoevsky, Letter 106: To S.A. Ivanova (Geneva, 1/13 January 1868)
- Quoted in: Jessie Coulson, Dostoevsky: A Self-Portrait, (Oxford University Press, 1962), p. 169

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #526 on: September 04, 2013, 07:19:37 AM »
Where is the evidence that Met. Hilarion or Bishop Jerome supported Nathanael's antics?

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #527 on: September 04, 2013, 10:11:36 AM »
Where is the evidence that Met. Hilarion or Bishop Jerome supported Nathanael's antics?
N. Kapner claimed their approval on his website and elsewhere. It's not a baseless claim either, because he was making his public campaign for years while dressed in Orthodox-style regalia and a member of ROCOR, and those hierarchs did not deny his open announcement of their approval. Granted, none of those things are conclusive that they did, and it wouldn't have amounted to active support.

In any case, there are enough problems with his campaign based on Church standards, since doesn't "we" in the Chancellor's letter mean "we the Synod", not just "we, the chancellor's office"? He is not dressed to form and the hierarch where he lives opposes his campaign. So it's not something I care to argue at this point, Iconodule.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 10:23:36 AM by rakovsky »

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #528 on: September 04, 2013, 10:18:20 AM »
Where is the evidence that Met. Hilarion or Bishop Jerome supported Nathanael's antics?
N. Kapner claimed it on his website and elsewhere, although that does not mean they did. It's not a baseless claim either, because he was making his public campaign for years while dressed in Orthodox-style regalia and a member of ROCOR, and those hierarchs did not deny his open announcement of their approval. Granted, neither of those things are conclusive.

In any case, there are enough problems with his campaign based on Church standards, since doesn't "we" in the Chancellor's letter mean "we the Synod", not just "we, the chancellor's office"? He is not dressed to form either. So it's not something I care to argue at this point, Iconodule.

The original letter is on the Synod's letterhead, not that of the chancellor per se nor the Bishop who signed it in his diocesan capacity. He apparently signed the document as Secretary for the Synod in his legal capacity as the same.

Speaking with my lawyer hat on, rusty as it may be, the letter speaks for itself and were it authenticated in a court of law, it would stand as clear and convincing evidence of the intent of the Synod.

Case closed.

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #529 on: September 04, 2013, 10:27:18 AM »
The original letter is on the Synod's letterhead, not that of the chancellor per se nor the Bishop who signed it in his diocesan capacity. He apparently signed the document as Secretary for the Synod in his legal capacity as the same.

Speaking with my lawyer hat on, rusty as it may be, the letter speaks for itself and were it authenticated in a court of law, it would stand as clear and convincing evidence of the intent of the Synod.

Case closed.
It's pointless to argue. He's like a showman from his hippie musician days. It's a costume.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 10:28:37 AM by rakovsky »

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #530 on: September 04, 2013, 11:38:42 AM »
Where is the evidence that Met. Hilarion or Bishop Jerome supported Nathanael's antics?

I have spoken to both the Met and Bishop Jerome personally, eye to eye about this. They are indeed very charitable towards him. They are only concerned about his salvation and have nothing what ever to do with his political antics. Their main problem is getting so many complaints about him, hence the official letter we have now all seen.

Bishop Jerome is on facebook.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #531 on: September 04, 2013, 11:41:02 AM »
The original letter is on the Synod's letterhead, not that of the chancellor per se nor the Bishop who signed it in his diocesan capacity. He apparently signed the document as Secretary for the Synod in his legal capacity as the same.

Speaking with my lawyer hat on, rusty as it may be, the letter speaks for itself and were it authenticated in a court of law, it would stand as clear and convincing evidence of the intent of the Synod.

Case closed.
It's pointless to argue. He's like a showman from his hippie musician days. It's a costume.

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #532 on: September 04, 2013, 12:30:53 PM »
I like what he has to say most of the time.  His videos are good.

Issues such as "where he belongs, who he is with" has NOTHING to do with what he is saying.   That's just playing the control paradigm to see who "ranks" him... That way it would be easier to manipulate one's agenda against him if a person does not like what he is saying.

Obviously his abbot approves.

Despite anything else said, he certainly lives in a beautiful area of the country.
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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #533 on: September 04, 2013, 12:31:09 PM »
I have spoken to both the Met and Bishop Jerome personally, eye to eye about this.

Their main problem is getting so many complaints about him

Bishop Jerome is on facebook.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 12:31:45 PM by rakovsky »

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #534 on: September 04, 2013, 12:36:22 PM »
I have spoken to both the Met and Bishop Jerome personally, eye to eye about this.

Their main problem is getting so many complaints about him

Bishop Jerome is on facebook.

Look at these people.... Going to somebody's bishop to complain.  That's weak and tattle-tale ish.  Why not make your own videos disproving what he is saying (if you can)?  Fight him with intellect rather than going to his "mommy" and telling.  Just seems so cowardly.  If he's wrong, make a video showing how his is wrong.    If you don't like his anti-zionist stances, fight him on his own platform.  You are more than free to make youtube videos.  Going and telling his bishop is childish.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 12:36:40 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #535 on: September 04, 2013, 12:46:41 PM »
I like what he has to say most of the time.  His videos are good.

Issues such as "where he belongs, who he is with" has NOTHING to do with what he is saying.   That's just playing the control paradigm to see who "ranks" him... That way it would be easier to manipulate one's agenda against him if a person does not like what he is saying.

Obviously his abbot approves.

Despite anything else said, he certainly lives in a beautiful area of the country.


He has no abbot.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #536 on: September 04, 2013, 12:47:39 PM »
I have spoken to both the Met and Bishop Jerome personally, eye to eye about this.

Their main problem is getting so many complaints about him

Bishop Jerome is on facebook.

Look at these people.... Going to somebody's bishop to complain.  That's weak and tattle-tale ish.  Why not make your own videos disproving what he is saying (if you can)?  Fight him with intellect rather than going to his "mommy" and telling.  Just seems so cowardly.  If he's wrong, make a video showing how his is wrong.    If you don't like his anti-zionist stances, fight him on his own platform.  You are more than free to make youtube videos.  Going and telling his bishop is childish.

Who is his bishop?

Actually going to the bishop is about good order, lest we have a free-for-all mob and confusion continue.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #537 on: September 04, 2013, 12:52:20 PM »
So this is how EO control works:

Brother Nathaniel makes youtube videos against Jewish Zionism
Many people like it, and he gets many views.
Some people don't like it.
Some EO despise it.
Many EO like it.

Those that despise say "Put that monk in his place".

Information:
Who is he - what jurisdiction?
Does abbot know - "can I tell the abbot to shut him up?"
Does bishop know - "can I tell the bishop to shut him up?"

Action:
I'm telling!  (yes like a 2 year old)
Person complains to the monastery abbot.  Abbot knows and allows.
Not good enough, mission not accomplished.
I'm telling again (like a 4 year old, knows to go to higher powers) so now to the bishop.  But the bishop knows.
Didn't work.

Manipulation:
Complain, over and over again to the bishop in hopes that he'll bend.

Dissonance:
Bishop does not bend.  Allows brother Nathaniel to keep making videos.  
EO Christian can't take this because they can't control a bishop.
EO Christian then looks into the bishop.

Start over:  Information
Who is the bishop?  Ah-HA! not part of world Orthodoxy
What did the bishop do? He's in HOCNA - Heretic
What is HOCNA - NEVER part of ROCOR, but they stage it at such!
(spontaneous bishop - probably spontaneous succession too right? LOL)
Invalidate bishop as heretic
Feel better

This is weak weak weak manipulation folks.  Seen it all way too many times.  You don't like what brother Nathaniel has to say, get off your natural seat, do some research, make some videos, stick them on youtube, and disprove what he is saying.   Don't be cowardly and manipulative through church hierarchy trying to feed your own need for control over another human being.  The funniest part is when that control need doesn't get fed, people then discredit the bishop and argue if he is real Orthodox or not, bringing "issues" to the table to distance them from Orthodoxy to further discredit.  (dissonance = Try to use the bishop to shut him up by recognizing the bishop's authority.  When agenda does not work, distance the bishop from Orthodoxy and YOUR TRUE church)

This is grammar school tattle-tale tactics, and honestly, childish.     A person who disagrees with him can simply show how he is wrong by making their own videos and showing it.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #538 on: September 04, 2013, 12:53:10 PM »
I have spoken to both the Met and Bishop Jerome personally, eye to eye about this.

Their main problem is getting so many complaints about him

Bishop Jerome is on facebook.

Look at these people.... Going to somebody's bishop to complain.  That's weak and tattle-tale ish.  Why not make your own videos disproving what he is saying (if you can)?  Fight him with intellect rather than going to his "mommy" and telling.  Just seems so cowardly.  If he's wrong, make a video showing how his is wrong.    If you don't like his anti-zionist stances, fight him on his own platform.  You are more than free to make youtube videos.  Going and telling his bishop is childish.

Who is his bishop?

Actually going to the bishop is about good order, lest we have a free-for-all mob and confusion continue.

NO it's not.  It's childish.   You don't like what he says, make some videos, post them, show how he is wrong.  ^read post above.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Brother Nathaniel
« Reply #539 on: September 04, 2013, 12:54:35 PM »
I like what he has to say most of the time.  His videos are good.

Issues such as "where he belongs, who he is with" has NOTHING to do with what he is saying.   That's just playing the control paradigm to see who "ranks" him... That way it would be easier to manipulate one's agenda against him if a person does not like what he is saying.

Obviously his abbot approves.

Despite anything else said, he certainly lives in a beautiful area of the country.


He has no abbot.

Does not matter same childish tactics apply with or without abbot.
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