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Author Topic: Brother Nathaniel  (Read 30476 times) Average Rating: 0
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #315 on: May 14, 2013, 02:47:14 PM »

I always though that he just pretended to be an Orthodox monk.
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« Reply #316 on: May 14, 2013, 02:48:51 PM »

Whatever he is, and whatever nonsense he spews out and whatever he purports to be, is not of the same faith and from the same heart as the Orthodox Church in which I was brought up, try to serve faithfully and love. Keeping him in your prayers that he may find the true light is all that one can do.

Theologically, I have not heard him say anything incorrect (though I have only watched a few of his videos). His politics, Jewish conspiracy theories, weird dress, and clownish behaviour is another matter.

This brings up an interesting question. At what point, if any, do extreme political views cross over into being counter to Orthodox Christian teachings.

He may fully understand and believe the Church's teachings on the Trinity and all theological doctrines. But let's hypothesize that he continues to push past his Jewish Conspiracy theories into Racism against Blacks and Hispanics. He is already condemning "Race Mixing". How bigoted can a tonsured person be and still be in communion with The Church?.. I don't know myself but it's an interesting question.

   

In answer I recall a woman in the London congregation of ROCOR under Bishop Nikodem of blessed memory who was heavily involved in a circle of aristocrats who worked tirelessly to undermine the British war effort. This group nearly torpedoed covert American presidential support for isolated Britain's effort at the time. She was a wholehearted supporter of Third Reich policies and a rabid Jew hater. Their activities were stopped and arrests made, including that of a cypher clerk at the American Embassy. Anna was arrested, tried and jailed.

When I met her she had long been forbidden to approach the chalice on account of her rabid Jew hatred. Of course, in her case she had gone beyond simply expressing views and actively tried to support the Third Reich's war time ambitions, including those directed at Jews.

Was this Anna Wolkoff by any chance?
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« Reply #317 on: May 14, 2013, 02:57:13 PM »

But quite a few of us do not see it as "hate" based.  As such, he still remains Orthodox.

"Feelings" tend to turn into political viewpoints.  You cannot say that a person has a right to believe a certain way, and then say that he cannot act upon that right.  I find it cute how some people acknowledge that it is a person's "right" to believe that two men should not get married, but to vote against law to allow such is "hatred" (and other issues likewise).  So, if a person does not think that races should mix, should we be at all shocked that he would speak against it?  It is OK to believe but not to speak?

Bigotry is a relatively recently defined term and really has no theological basis unless it involves hatred.  Modern liberals cannot tell the difference between hatred and other emotions since anything that even slightly goes against what the feel good about is hatred.  Rational people, on the other hand,  can differentiate between not wanting your offspring to marry into another social / racial group and shunning them if they do.  There is nothing "non-Canonical" about recognizing that marriage is difficult enough without bringing in other differences and issues.  On the other hand, not accepting a person of another race into your family after the die has been cast is a completely other matter.

Whatever he is, and whatever nonsense he spews out and whatever he purports to be, is not of the same faith and from the same heart as the Orthodox Church in which I was brought up, try to serve faithfully and love. Keeping him in your prayers that he may find the true light is all that one can do.

Theologically, I have not heard him say anything incorrect (though I have only watched a few of his videos). His politics, Jewish conspiracy theories, weird dress, and clownish behaviour is another matter.

This brings up an interesting question. At what point, if any, do extreme political views cross over into being counter to Orthodox Christian teachings.

He may fully understand and believe the Church's teachings on the Trinity and all theological doctrines. But let's hypothesize that he continues to push past his Jewish Conspiracy theories into Racism against Blacks and Hispanics. He is already condemning "Race Mixing". How bigoted can a tonsured person be and still be in communion with The Church?.. I don't know myself but it's an interesting question.

    
You are fogging up the question. People are free to accept or reject other people as friends or into their family via marriage for example. It's a free country. Dislike whomever fails to please you.

On the other hand opposing Racism as a political formulation has nothing to do with "Feelings". It has  divided people in an unhealthy way and has a very sad history in this country. Calling out people like Nathanael who suggest old racist formulations about "Race Mixing" and promotes Anti-Jewish bigotry has concrete justification based on history and long experience with hate mongering in the USA. 

You are not addressing the question at hand which is can you stay in communion with The Church and be an activist for a hate based ideology.

Your personal approval of him is not what keeps him Orthodox..FYI

Racism is generally considered "Hate Based".. Your milage may vary.

How do you feel about his coziness with White Supremacist groups like StormFront?
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« Reply #318 on: May 14, 2013, 03:10:25 PM »

Interesting queston.. I would say that they have a right to make such a policy if so moved by the Holy Spirit.

Yeah. They have right. And their flock would have duty to protest against it. Such a decision can't come from the Holy Spirit.

I always though that he just pretended to be an Orthodox monk.

It's not such a petty issue since many people fall for it. Even here.
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« Reply #319 on: May 14, 2013, 03:24:53 PM »

Christ is risen!

I have a question for the anti-Br.-Nathanael persons on here (whose opinions I do not automatically dismiss, as I try to keep an open mind).

If there were an official policy statement issued, that an Orthodox Christian may not marry someone of a different race, would the bishops responsible for drafting this policy be in a category of people who should be deprived of Holy Communion? Or otherwise disciplined or silenced from having authority in the Church and deciding such questions? Should such clergy be defrocked?

I don't know about Orthodox, but in the RCC, I would guess that some serious  disciplinary action would be in order.
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« Reply #320 on: May 14, 2013, 03:26:51 PM »

Yeah. They have right. And their flock would have duty to protest against it. Such a decision can't come from the Holy Spirit.

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« Reply #321 on: May 14, 2013, 03:59:09 PM »

Whatever he is, and whatever nonsense he spews out and whatever he purports to be, is not of the same faith and from the same heart as the Orthodox Church in which I was brought up, try to serve faithfully and love. Keeping him in your prayers that he may find the true light is all that one can do.

Theologically, I have not heard him say anything incorrect (though I have only watched a few of his videos). His politics, Jewish conspiracy theories, weird dress, and clownish behaviour is another matter.

This brings up an interesting question. At what point, if any, do extreme political views cross over into being counter to Orthodox Christian teachings.

He may fully understand and believe the Church's teachings on the Trinity and all theological doctrines. But let's hypothesize that he continues to push past his Jewish Conspiracy theories into Racism against Blacks and Hispanics. He is already condemning "Race Mixing". How bigoted can a tonsured person be and still be in communion with The Church?.. I don't know myself but it's an interesting question.

   

In answer I recall a woman in the London congregation of ROCOR under Bishop Nikodem of blessed memory who was heavily involved in a circle of aristocrats who worked tirelessly to undermine the British war effort. This group nearly torpedoed covert American presidential support for isolated Britain's effort at the time. She was a wholehearted supporter of Third Reich policies and a rabid Jew hater. Their activities were stopped and arrests made, including that of a cypher clerk at the American Embassy. Anna was arrested, tried and jailed.

When I met her she had long been forbidden to approach the chalice on account of her rabid Jew hatred. Of course, in her case she had gone beyond simply expressing views and actively tried to support the Third Reich's war time ambitions, including those directed at Jews.

Was this Anna Wolkoff by any chance?

Yes, it was.....
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« Reply #322 on: May 14, 2013, 04:14:55 PM »

Whatever he is, and whatever nonsense he spews out and whatever he purports to be, is not of the same faith and from the same heart as the Orthodox Church in which I was brought up, try to serve faithfully and love. Keeping him in your prayers that he may find the true light is all that one can do.

Theologically, I have not heard him say anything incorrect (though I have only watched a few of his videos). His politics, Jewish conspiracy theories, weird dress, and clownish behaviour is another matter.

This brings up an interesting question. At what point, if any, do extreme political views cross over into being counter to Orthodox Christian teachings.

He may fully understand and believe the Church's teachings on the Trinity and all theological doctrines. But let's hypothesize that he continues to push past his Jewish Conspiracy theories into Racism against Blacks and Hispanics. He is already condemning "Race Mixing". How bigoted can a tonsured person be and still be in communion with The Church?.. I don't know myself but it's an interesting question.

   

In answer I recall a woman in the London congregation of ROCOR under Bishop Nikodem of blessed memory who was heavily involved in a circle of aristocrats who worked tirelessly to undermine the British war effort. This group nearly torpedoed covert American presidential support for isolated Britain's effort at the time. She was a wholehearted supporter of Third Reich policies and a rabid Jew hater. Their activities were stopped and arrests made, including that of a cypher clerk at the American Embassy. Anna was arrested, tried and jailed.

When I met her she had long been forbidden to approach the chalice on account of her rabid Jew hatred. Of course, in her case she had gone beyond simply expressing views and actively tried to support the Third Reich's war time ambitions, including those directed at Jews.

Was this Anna Wolkoff by any chance?

Yes, it was.....

OK. She has a Wikipedia entry if anyone's interested in the history of that stuff.
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« Reply #323 on: May 14, 2013, 05:00:30 PM »

Whatever he is, and whatever nonsense he spews out and whatever he purports to be, is not of the same faith and from the same heart as the Orthodox Church in which I was brought up, try to serve faithfully and love. Keeping him in your prayers that he may find the true light is all that one can do.

Theologically, I have not heard him say anything incorrect (though I have only watched a few of his videos). His politics, Jewish conspiracy theories, weird dress, and clownish behaviour is another matter.

This brings up an interesting question. At what point, if any, do extreme political views cross over into being counter to Orthodox Christian teachings.

He may fully understand and believe the Church's teachings on the Trinity and all theological doctrines. But let's hypothesize that he continues to push past his Jewish Conspiracy theories into Racism against Blacks and Hispanics. He is already condemning "Race Mixing". How bigoted can a tonsured person be and still be in communion with The Church?.. I don't know myself but it's an interesting question.

   

In answer I recall a woman in the London congregation of ROCOR under Bishop Nikodem of blessed memory who was heavily involved in a circle of aristocrats who worked tirelessly to undermine the British war effort. This group nearly torpedoed covert American presidential support for isolated Britain's effort at the time. She was a wholehearted supporter of Third Reich policies and a rabid Jew hater. Their activities were stopped and arrests made, including that of a cypher clerk at the American Embassy. Anna was arrested, tried and jailed.

When I met her she had long been forbidden to approach the chalice on account of her rabid Jew hatred. Of course, in her case she had gone beyond simply expressing views and actively tried to support the Third Reich's war time ambitions, including those directed at Jews.

Was this Anna Wolkoff by any chance?

Yes, it was.....

OK. She has a Wikipedia entry if anyone's interested in the history of that stuff.

She was told by a member of the congregation that she was part Jewish and got the response, "You can't be, I like you". When pointed out to her that both Our Lord and his Holy Mother were Jewish said, "Nonsense, they came from a long lost Russian tribe". Such is blind hatred.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 05:01:25 PM by Santagranddad » Logged
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« Reply #324 on: May 14, 2013, 05:45:11 PM »

Whatever he is, and whatever nonsense he spews out and whatever he purports to be, is not of the same faith and from the same heart as the Orthodox Church in which I was brought up, try to serve faithfully and love. Keeping him in your prayers that he may find the true light is all that one can do.

Theologically, I have not heard him say anything incorrect (though I have only watched a few of his videos). His politics, Jewish conspiracy theories, weird dress, and clownish behaviour is another matter.

This brings up an interesting question. At what point, if any, do extreme political views cross over into being counter to Orthodox Christian teachings.

He may fully understand and believe the Church's teachings on the Trinity and all theological doctrines. But let's hypothesize that he continues to push past his Jewish Conspiracy theories into Racism against Blacks and Hispanics. He is already condemning "Race Mixing". How bigoted can a tonsured person be and still be in communion with The Church?.. I don't know myself but it's an interesting question.

   

In answer I recall a woman in the London congregation of ROCOR under Bishop Nikodem of blessed memory who was heavily involved in a circle of aristocrats who worked tirelessly to undermine the British war effort. This group nearly torpedoed covert American presidential support for isolated Britain's effort at the time. She was a wholehearted supporter of Third Reich policies and a rabid Jew hater. Their activities were stopped and arrests made, including that of a cypher clerk at the American Embassy. Anna was arrested, tried and jailed.

When I met her she had long been forbidden to approach the chalice on account of her rabid Jew hatred. Of course, in her case she had gone beyond simply expressing views and actively tried to support the Third Reich's war time ambitions, including those directed at Jews.

Was this Anna Wolkoff by any chance?

Yes, it was.....

OK. She has a Wikipedia entry if anyone's interested in the history of that stuff.

She was told by a member of the congregation that she was part Jewish and got the response, "You can't be, I like you". When pointed out to her that both Our Lord and his Holy Mother were Jewish said, "Nonsense, they came from a long lost Russian tribe". Such is blind hatred.

Metropolitan Pavlos of HOTCA was supposedly explaining in a televised sermon many years ago that the Theotokos was Jewish, which provoked an angry Greek lady to come round to St Markella's to protest against this "slur". This seems to be a trope among some "traditionalist" Orthodox.
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« Reply #325 on: May 14, 2013, 07:21:54 PM »

Whatever he is, and whatever nonsense he spews out and whatever he purports to be, is not of the same faith and from the same heart as the Orthodox Church in which I was brought up, try to serve faithfully and love. Keeping him in your prayers that he may find the true light is all that one can do.

Theologically, I have not heard him say anything incorrect (though I have only watched a few of his videos). His politics, Jewish conspiracy theories, weird dress, and clownish behaviour is another matter.

This brings up an interesting question. At what point, if any, do extreme political views cross over into being counter to Orthodox Christian teachings.

He may fully understand and believe the Church's teachings on the Trinity and all theological doctrines. But let's hypothesize that he continues to push past his Jewish Conspiracy theories into Racism against Blacks and Hispanics. He is already condemning "Race Mixing". How bigoted can a tonsured person be and still be in communion with The Church?.. I don't know myself but it's an interesting question.

   

In answer I recall a woman in the London congregation of ROCOR under Bishop Nikodem of blessed memory who was heavily involved in a circle of aristocrats who worked tirelessly to undermine the British war effort. This group nearly torpedoed covert American presidential support for isolated Britain's effort at the time. She was a wholehearted supporter of Third Reich policies and a rabid Jew hater. Their activities were stopped and arrests made, including that of a cypher clerk at the American Embassy. Anna was arrested, tried and jailed.

When I met her she had long been forbidden to approach the chalice on account of her rabid Jew hatred. Of course, in her case she had gone beyond simply expressing views and actively tried to support the Third Reich's war time ambitions, including those directed at Jews.

Was this Anna Wolkoff by any chance?

Yes, it was.....

OK. She has a Wikipedia entry if anyone's interested in the history of that stuff.

She was told by a member of the congregation that she was part Jewish and got the response, "You can't be, I like you". When pointed out to her that both Our Lord and his Holy Mother were Jewish said, "Nonsense, they came from a long lost Russian tribe". Such is blind hatred.

Metropolitan Pavlos of HOTCA was supposedly explaining in a televised sermon many years ago that the Theotokos was Jewish, which provoked an angry Greek lady to come round to St Markella's to protest against this "slur". This seems to be a trope among some "traditionalist" Orthodox.

Being a 'traditionalist' and having a lot of time among Orthodox believers of all shades it is more likely to arise in the ignorant social club 'Orthodox'. Some of those I can recall being most welcoming were simple folk, strong in their faith with little English and of Old Ritualist background. The Jew haters I came across were often as not educated Russian tea room patrons. Metropolitan Philaret of blessed memory drew a distinction between patriotism which draws people's together and nationalism which excludes and separates.
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« Reply #326 on: May 14, 2013, 07:28:42 PM »

Thank you. I certainly didn't mean to disparage traditionalists (I'm one myself!) and in fact I have had the same impression. The most pious and traditional Orthodox have also been the most welcoming and free of prejudice, in my experience.

EDIT: This goes both for parishes that are convert-heavy, like St Maximus' parish in Owego, NY, and very ethnic ones, like St Markella's in Astoria, or St Mark of Ephesus in Boston (Greek), or Holy Assumption in Trenton, NJ, and Holy Trinity in Astoria (Russian). In the ethnic ones, I've never been made to feel unwelcome because I'm not Greek or Russian. And we have had a few notable converts from Judaism. Smiley

I imagine poor old Anna and the "tea room" Orthodox would not be sympathetic to Jewish converts. One of the great Catacomb saints of Russia was Jewish (St Alexander Jacobson).
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 07:32:49 PM by Jonathan Gress » Logged
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« Reply #327 on: May 14, 2013, 07:34:49 PM »

The most pious and traditional Orthodox have also been the most welcoming and free of prejudice, in my experience.

Internetz say otherwise. At least in this part of the world.

I have to say I was nicely surprised by the activities of the hyper-Orthodox on this board, especially Anastasios. I hadn't expected such from you guys.
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« Reply #328 on: May 14, 2013, 07:51:39 PM »

The most pious and traditional Orthodox have also been the most welcoming and free of prejudice, in my experience.

Internetz say otherwise. At least in this part of the world.

I have to say I was nicely surprised by the activities of the hyper-Orthodox on this board, especially Anastasios. I hadn't expected such from you guys.

Well if you base your knowledge of Orthodoxy off the internet, I don't know what to say.

For your part, I would say your smug and condescending tone entirely lives up to stereotypes we have about the World Orthodox. Fortunately, there are many others here who do not live up to such stereotypes.
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« Reply #329 on: May 14, 2013, 07:55:27 PM »

The most pious and traditional Orthodox have also been the most welcoming and free of prejudice, in my experience.

Internetz say otherwise. At least in this part of the world.

I have to say I was nicely surprised by the activities of the hyper-Orthodox on this board, especially Anastasios. I hadn't expected such from you guys.

We ain't got horns Roll Eyes And I too know of one traditionalist monastery that has managed to extend their property with the interest and encouragement of a Jewish councillor. And those converts Judaism I have met have left me with a good impression, to say nought of the number of times I have enjoyed bagels and banter in London's Golders Green. (Apparently they tell me I even double park like a Jew - not sure that feat draws any plaudits from the traffic wardens though). I try to rub along with my neighbour whosoever they are, but comprising Faith I try not to do. Nor will I indulge in politically motivated inter-Faith worship.
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« Reply #330 on: May 14, 2013, 08:07:03 PM »

Well if you base your knowledge of Orthodoxy off the internet, I don't know what to say.

I don't. Only about hyperdoxy.
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« Reply #331 on: May 14, 2013, 08:09:30 PM »

He is representing only himself but he is a political activist publicly and aggressively promoting these theories.

From what I have seen (and, as I said, I haven't seen all that much), while I may not agree with much of what he says, I can't say that any of the ideas he is pushing are overtly hateful or heretical.

It can be argued that racism of the kind Nathaniel preaches is, indeed, heresy.
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« Reply #332 on: May 14, 2013, 08:12:35 PM »

But quite a few of us do not see it as "hate" based.  As such, he still remains Orthodox.

"Feelings" tend to turn into political viewpoints.  You cannot say that a person has a right to believe a certain way, and then say that he cannot act upon that right.  I find it cute how some people acknowledge that it is a person's "right" to believe that two men should not get married, but to vote against law to allow such is "hatred" (and other issues likewise).  So, if a person does not think that races should mix, should we be at all shocked that he would speak against it?  It is OK to believe but not to speak?

Bigotry is a relatively recently defined term and really has no theological basis unless it involves hatred.  Modern liberals cannot tell the difference between hatred and other emotions since anything that even slightly goes against what the feel good about is hatred.  Rational people, on the other hand,  can differentiate between not wanting your offspring to marry into another social / racial group and shunning them if they do.  There is nothing "non-Canonical" about recognizing that marriage is difficult enough without bringing in other differences and issues.  On the other hand, not accepting a person of another race into your family after the die has been cast is a completely other matter.

Whatever he is, and whatever nonsense he spews out and whatever he purports to be, is not of the same faith and from the same heart as the Orthodox Church in which I was brought up, try to serve faithfully and love. Keeping him in your prayers that he may find the true light is all that one can do.

Theologically, I have not heard him say anything incorrect (though I have only watched a few of his videos). His politics, Jewish conspiracy theories, weird dress, and clownish behaviour is another matter.

This brings up an interesting question. At what point, if any, do extreme political views cross over into being counter to Orthodox Christian teachings.

He may fully understand and believe the Church's teachings on the Trinity and all theological doctrines. But let's hypothesize that he continues to push past his Jewish Conspiracy theories into Racism against Blacks and Hispanics. He is already condemning "Race Mixing". How bigoted can a tonsured person be and still be in communion with The Church?.. I don't know myself but it's an interesting question.

    
You are fogging up the question. People are free to accept or reject other people as friends or into their family via marriage for example. It's a free country. Dislike whomever fails to please you.

On the other hand opposing Racism as a political formulation has nothing to do with "Feelings". It has  divided people in an unhealthy way and has a very sad history in this country. Calling out people like Nathanael who suggest old racist formulations about "Race Mixing" and promotes Anti-Jewish bigotry has concrete justification based on history and long experience with hate mongering in the USA.  

You are not addressing the question at hand which is can you stay in communion with The Church and be an activist for a hate based ideology.

Your personal approval of him is not what keeps him Orthodox..FYI

Racism is generally considered "Hate Based".. Your milage may vary.

How do you feel about his coziness with White Supremacist groups like StormFront?

Well, having actually read what StormFront has to say about him (not just carefully chosen excerpts, which is your calling card), I am not sure that they are all too impressed with him.  I call his relationship with them far from "cozy".  
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 08:13:14 PM by Punch » Logged

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« Reply #333 on: May 14, 2013, 08:13:20 PM »

Christ is risen!

I have a question for the anti-Br.-Nathanael persons on here (whose opinions I do not automatically dismiss, as I try to keep an open mind).

If there were an official policy statement issued, that an Orthodox Christian may not marry someone of a different race, would the bishops responsible for drafting this policy be in a category of people who should be deprived of Holy Communion? Or otherwise disciplined or silenced from having authority in the Church and deciding such questions? Should such clergy be defrocked?


Such would be advocating heresy. They should be tried in an ecclesiastical court. Failing that, they should be shunned.
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« Reply #334 on: May 14, 2013, 08:15:00 PM »

I always though that he just pretended to be an Orthodox monk.

Yes.
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« Reply #335 on: May 14, 2013, 08:16:04 PM »

The most pious and traditional Orthodox have also been the most welcoming and free of prejudice, in my experience.

Internetz say otherwise. At least in this part of the world.

I have to say I was nicely surprised by the activities of the hyper-Orthodox on this board, especially Anastasios. I hadn't expected such from you guys.

This made me chuckle.  Most of the "real" Orthodox that I have know, Traditionalist and Modernist, are not on the Internet.
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« Reply #336 on: May 14, 2013, 08:40:20 PM »

But quite a few of us do not see it as "hate" based.  As such, he still remains Orthodox.

"Feelings" tend to turn into political viewpoints.  You cannot say that a person has a right to believe a certain way, and then say that he cannot act upon that right.  I find it cute how some people acknowledge that it is a person's "right" to believe that two men should not get married, but to vote against law to allow such is "hatred" (and other issues likewise).  So, if a person does not think that races should mix, should we be at all shocked that he would speak against it?  It is OK to believe but not to speak?

Bigotry is a relatively recently defined term and really has no theological basis unless it involves hatred.  Modern liberals cannot tell the difference between hatred and other emotions since anything that even slightly goes against what the feel good about is hatred.  Rational people, on the other hand,  can differentiate between not wanting your offspring to marry into another social / racial group and shunning them if they do.  There is nothing "non-Canonical" about recognizing that marriage is difficult enough without bringing in other differences and issues.  On the other hand, not accepting a person of another race into your family after the die has been cast is a completely other matter.

Whatever he is, and whatever nonsense he spews out and whatever he purports to be, is not of the same faith and from the same heart as the Orthodox Church in which I was brought up, try to serve faithfully and love. Keeping him in your prayers that he may find the true light is all that one can do.

Theologically, I have not heard him say anything incorrect (though I have only watched a few of his videos). His politics, Jewish conspiracy theories, weird dress, and clownish behaviour is another matter.

This brings up an interesting question. At what point, if any, do extreme political views cross over into being counter to Orthodox Christian teachings.

He may fully understand and believe the Church's teachings on the Trinity and all theological doctrines. But let's hypothesize that he continues to push past his Jewish Conspiracy theories into Racism against Blacks and Hispanics. He is already condemning "Race Mixing". How bigoted can a tonsured person be and still be in communion with The Church?.. I don't know myself but it's an interesting question.

    
You are fogging up the question. People are free to accept or reject other people as friends or into their family via marriage for example. It's a free country. Dislike whomever fails to please you.

On the other hand opposing Racism as a political formulation has nothing to do with "Feelings". It has  divided people in an unhealthy way and has a very sad history in this country. Calling out people like Nathanael who suggest old racist formulations about "Race Mixing" and promotes Anti-Jewish bigotry has concrete justification based on history and long experience with hate mongering in the USA.  

You are not addressing the question at hand which is can you stay in communion with The Church and be an activist for a hate based ideology.

Your personal approval of him is not what keeps him Orthodox..FYI

Racism is generally considered "Hate Based".. Your milage may vary.

How do you feel about his coziness with White Supremacist groups like StormFront?

Well, having actually read what StormFront has to say about him (not just carefully chosen excerpts, which is your calling card), I am not sure that they are all too impressed with him.  I call his relationship with them far from "cozy".  

He gave a very friendly interview to StormFront. They share many common political idea's with him. You are the one cherry picking. If you then read some comments about him on their message board, you will find negative comments along the line of him being some sort of too good to be true plant.
 

Coziness: Giving a Neo Nazi publication a friendly interview.

You will also find as I have pointed out that he is starting down their line of march in terms of further Racist formulations past Jewish Baiting. He has been warning lately about "Race Mixing"... Any good publicist/propagandist needs to know his target audience. If you read the comments on his message board you will see many people who appear to have Neo-Nazi type ideology.
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« Reply #337 on: May 14, 2013, 08:42:44 PM »

Well, having actually read what StormFront has to say about him (not just carefully chosen excerpts, which is your calling card), I am not sure that they are all too impressed with him.  I call his relationship with them far from "cozy".  

I googled 'Nathanael Kapner' and a few StormFront entries and similar websites came up. The majority opinion seemed to be something along the lines of "once a Jew, always a Jew," though they on the whole seemed to agree with what he was saying.
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« Reply #338 on: May 14, 2013, 08:58:42 PM »

Well, having actually read what StormFront has to say about him (not just carefully chosen excerpts, which is your calling card), I am not sure that they are all too impressed with him.  I call his relationship with them far from "cozy".  

I googled 'Nathanael Kapner' and a few StormFront entries and similar websites came up. The majority opinion seemed to be something along the lines of "once a Jew, always a Jew," though they on the whole seemed to agree with what he was saying.

Exactly.  No neo-Nazi will ever accept a Jew.  He may use a Jew, but never accept one.  And I probably know quite a bit more about Nazis than our resident liberal reactionary wannabe.  That is why the idea of Br. Nathaniel being "cozy" with StormFront is so ludicrous to me. 
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« Reply #339 on: May 14, 2013, 09:45:18 PM »

Well, having actually read what StormFront has to say about him (not just carefully chosen excerpts, which is your calling card), I am not sure that they are all too impressed with him.  I call his relationship with them far from "cozy".  

I googled 'Nathanael Kapner' and a few StormFront entries and similar websites came up. The majority opinion seemed to be something along the lines of "once a Jew, always a Jew," though they on the whole seemed to agree with what he was saying.

Exactly.  No neo-Nazi will ever accept a Jew.  He may use a Jew, but never accept one.  And I probably know quite a bit more about Nazis than our resident liberal reactionary wannabe.  That is why the idea of Br. Nathaniel being "cozy" with StormFront is so ludicrous to me. 

Nice twist.. He gave a friendly interview to StormFront.What more does anyone really need to know ?

 They were in agreement.

I am sure he would not be able to join an actual Nazi organization. But no one is saying he could.

His interview reflected his ideological agreement with StormFront.

 Nothing about my characterization is ludicrous. 

You can name call me all you want. It doesn't change anything.
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« Reply #340 on: May 14, 2013, 09:57:39 PM »

The most pious and traditional Orthodox have also been the most welcoming and free of prejudice, in my experience.

Internetz say otherwise. At least in this part of the world.

I have to say I was nicely surprised by the activities of the hyper-Orthodox on this board, especially Anastasios. I hadn't expected such from you guys.

I tend to agree with Michal and then I read a comment like "social club Orthodox" and I just shake my head and sigh.
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« Reply #341 on: May 14, 2013, 10:03:31 PM »

Christ is risen.

There appears to be misuse of the word "Fascist." Do people understand what "Fascism" is? How in the world could it possibly relate to Br. Nathanael?

One thing is for sure - the issue of Br. Nathanael seems to provoke a drastic evaporation of rational thinking processes in many (not all!) of those who have strong reactions against him. I notice this strange phenomenon and I don't quite know what it means, but it appears that many of Br. Nathanael's messages or themes seem to run counter to things that people were taught by the secular educational system. It's a system which was and is designed to promote marxism and related anti-Christian thinking and values and weltanschauung, as Charlotte Isserby discovered and documented carefully. And when its planks which are meant to be swallowed whole as "givens" are challenged, then... woe betide.

I'm not painting everyone who really dislikes Br. Nathanael with the same brush.

By the way, it's really an awful slander and a grievous sin to ascribe to people sins which they don't have. So calling him hateful, or murderous, or fascist, or a nazi, or the various other absolutely outrageous and unhinged things he's been called in this thread, is not only dense, it's seriously sinful.

People mentioned the bizarre dress of Br. Nathanael (which doesn't sit well with me, by the way). But what did St. Xenia wear? Man's clothing. Do we accuse her, then, of cross-dressing, the overturning of society, confused gender or sexual identity, or any such nonsense? Of course not.

Could that one example (I could give others) somehow shed light on the case of Br. Nathanael?

Let's all show a certain elemental tolerance. Try to keep our minds open.

Completely agree with everything stated above.

People have been conditioned to react, condemn and call names (all liberal tactics when you have no argument) rather than confront and challenge points in a constructive way.
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« Reply #342 on: May 14, 2013, 10:28:06 PM »

This nonsense is the other end of the debate.
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« Reply #343 on: May 14, 2013, 10:55:52 PM »

I just found that StormFront has several of Br. Nathaneal's Video's on it's own You Tube channel

The Motto of the channel is "White folks NEED to WAKE UP"

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB0CD8D295F0DBB45
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« Reply #344 on: May 14, 2013, 11:06:49 PM »

The most pious and traditional Orthodox have also been the most welcoming and free of prejudice, in my experience.

Internetz say otherwise. At least in this part of the world.

I have to say I was nicely surprised by the activities of the hyper-Orthodox on this board, especially Anastasios. I hadn't expected such from you guys.

I tend to agree with Michal and then I read a comment like "social club Orthodox" and I just shake my head and sigh.

There's piety and there's pseudo-piety. I think Michal's "hyperdox" are the latter; they're all talk, basically. They are particularly prominent on the Internet. I admit to being one of them now and then. But if you go to a real traditionalist parish and meet the people there, I think you would get a different impression.
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« Reply #345 on: May 14, 2013, 11:15:35 PM »

Well, having actually read what StormFront has to say about him (not just carefully chosen excerpts, which is your calling card), I am not sure that they are all too impressed with him.  I call his relationship with them far from "cozy".  

I googled 'Nathanael Kapner' and a few StormFront entries and similar websites came up. The majority opinion seemed to be something along the lines of "once a Jew, always a Jew," though they on the whole seemed to agree with what he was saying.

Exactly.  No neo-Nazi will ever accept a Jew.  He may use a Jew, but never accept one.  And I probably know quite a bit more about Nazis than our resident liberal reactionary wannabe.  That is why the idea of Br. Nathaniel being "cozy" with StormFront is so ludicrous to me. 

Nice twist.. He gave a friendly interview to StormFront.What more does anyone really need to know ?

 They were in agreement.

I am sure he would not be able to join an actual Nazi organization. But no one is saying he could.

His interview reflected his ideological agreement with StormFront.

 Nothing about my characterization is ludicrous. 

You can name call me all you want. It doesn't change anything.

That is true. You will always be what you are.
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« Reply #346 on: May 15, 2013, 04:06:39 PM »

Christ is risen!

It was the hierarchy of the canonical Greek Archdiocese of North and South America (Ecumenical Patriarchate), which had a policy, several decades ago, of forbidding racially mixed marriages (this according to a priest who had written one of those "xx Questions on the Orthodox Church" books published in those days). Granted, the policy seems to have been retired or at least kept quiet, since then.

Those of you who want Br. Nathanael silenced or defrocked, are you saying that you also wish the bishops of the canonical Greek Orthodox Church in America to be silenced or defrocked? Or is what's good for the goose, not good for the gander?

The idea of a white Christian political bloc, and advocating for its strengthening, seems non-heretical and to be distinct from actual heresy. After all, if people from a group of African nations got together and said, "We want to formulate a powerful political bloc of African nations, to protect our peoples against inroads from European powers," absolutely no one would object. Even if it were an Islamic political bloc, with Islamist goals, few would object to their right to associate and organize to protect their interests, however ethnically and religiously narrow.

Being against "mixing of races" is a very unsound concept which has no basis ("race" as in "white" versus "judaic" versus "black" doesn't really exist, scientifically speaking, plus there is no previous example for this in the lives of the Saints or in historic church policy, short of Greek Orthodox American policy recently). I am very much against such talk and it is very disturbing to me. I have a number of racially mixed couples in my own parish of Holy Protection in Austin, Texas.

http://www.orthodoxaustin.org


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« Reply #347 on: May 15, 2013, 04:25:10 PM »

It was the hierarchy of the canonical Greek Archdiocese of North and South America (Ecumenical Patriarchate), which had a policy, several decades ago, of forbidding racially mixed marriages (this according to a priest who had written one of those "xx Questions on the Orthodox Church" books published in those days). Granted, the policy seems to have been retired or at least kept quiet, since then.


("race" as in "white" versus "judaic" versus "black" doesn't really exist, scientifically speaking, plus there is no previous example for this in the lives of the Saints or in historic church policy, short of Greek Orthodox American policy recently
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« Reply #348 on: May 15, 2013, 04:32:08 PM »

Those of you who want Br. Nathanael silenced or defrocked, are you saying that you also wish the bishops of the canonical Greek Orthodox Church in America to be silenced or defrocked? Or is what's good for the goose, not good for the gander?

If they did it know? Yes.
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« Reply #349 on: May 15, 2013, 05:20:02 PM »

It was the hierarchy of the canonical Greek Archdiocese of North and South America (Ecumenical Patriarchate), which had a policy, several decades ago, of forbidding racially mixed marriages (this according to a priest who had written one of those "xx Questions on the Orthodox Church" books published in those days). Granted, the policy seems to have been retired or at least kept quiet, since then.

I figured this was what you were referring to. I don't know the details of that policy or the reason for it, but were they suggest something similar today, it would be completely unacceptable.
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« Reply #350 on: May 15, 2013, 06:02:04 PM »

Well, having actually read what StormFront has to say about him (not just carefully chosen excerpts, which is your calling card), I am not sure that they are all too impressed with him.  I call his relationship with them far from "cozy".  

I googled 'Nathanael Kapner' and a few StormFront entries and similar websites came up. The majority opinion seemed to be something along the lines of "once a Jew, always a Jew," though they on the whole seemed to agree with what he was saying.

Exactly.  No neo-Nazi will ever accept a Jew.  He may use a Jew, but never accept one.  And I probably know quite a bit more about Nazis than our resident liberal reactionary wannabe.  That is why the idea of Br. Nathaniel being "cozy" with StormFront is so ludicrous to me. 

Nice twist.. He gave a friendly interview to StormFront.What more does anyone really need to know ?

 They were in agreement.

I am sure he would not be able to join an actual Nazi organization. But no one is saying he could.

His interview reflected his ideological agreement with StormFront.

 Nothing about my characterization is ludicrous. 

You can name call me all you want. It doesn't change anything.

That is true. You will always be what you are.

What I meant was that your name calling habit doesn't make you weak arguments any stronger. But I bet you already know that.
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« Reply #351 on: May 15, 2013, 06:07:26 PM »

Christ is risen!

It was the hierarchy of the canonical Greek Archdiocese of North and South America (Ecumenical Patriarchate), which had a policy, several decades ago, of forbidding racially mixed marriages (this according to a priest who had written one of those "xx Questions on the Orthodox Church" books published in those days). Granted, the policy seems to have been retired or at least kept quiet, since then.

Those of you who want Br. Nathanael silenced or defrocked, are you saying that you also wish the bishops of the canonical Greek Orthodox Church in America to be silenced or defrocked? Or is what's good for the goose, not good for the gander?

The idea of a white Christian political bloc, and advocating for its strengthening, seems non-heretical and to be distinct from actual heresy. After all, if people from a group of African nations got together and said, "We want to formulate a powerful political bloc of African nations, to protect our peoples against inroads from European powers," absolutely no one would object. Even if it were an Islamic political bloc, with Islamist goals, few would object to their right to associate and organize to protect their interests, however ethnically and religiously narrow.

Being against "mixing of races" is a very unsound concept which has no basis ("race" as in "white" versus "judaic" versus "black" doesn't really exist, scientifically speaking, plus there is no previous example for this in the lives of the Saints or in historic church policy, short of Greek Orthodox American policy recently). I am very much against such talk and it is very disturbing to me. I have a number of racially mixed couples in my own parish of Holy Protection in Austin, Texas.

http://www.orthodoxaustin.org




I for one have not called for him to be defrocked. I did ask the question concerning how far out you can go politically and remain in communion. I dont really know where that line is, so that is why I asked.

He does use his Monk status as cover. It gives him some credibility which is a shame. 
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« Reply #352 on: May 15, 2013, 07:42:05 PM »

The most pious and traditional Orthodox have also been the most welcoming and free of prejudice, in my experience.

Internetz say otherwise. At least in this part of the world.

I have to say I was nicely surprised by the activities of the hyper-Orthodox on this board, especially Anastasios. I hadn't expected such from you guys.

I tend to agree with Michal and then I read a comment like "social club Orthodox" and I just shake my head and sigh.

There's piety and there's pseudo-piety. I think Michal's "hyperdox" are the latter; they're all talk, basically. They are particularly prominent on the Internet. I admit to being one of them now and then. But if you go to a real traditionalist parish and meet the people there, I think you would get a different impression.

Frankly one could say the same about almost any real Orthodox parish of any jurisdiction. After all ,all Orthodox are traditional, some are just more traditional than others!  We call tend to get full of our own opinions online online and tend towards hyperbole more than needed to make our points from time to time.
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« Reply #353 on: May 15, 2013, 11:31:42 PM »

It was the hierarchy of the canonical Greek Archdiocese of North and South America (Ecumenical Patriarchate), which had a policy, several decades ago, of forbidding racially mixed marriages (this according to a priest who had written one of those "xx Questions on the Orthodox Church" books published in those days). Granted, the policy seems to have been retired or at least kept quiet, since then.
That's weird. Alexander Pushkin the leading Russian classical poet- naturally an Orthodox- was 1/4 black from Ethiopia. Besides, Russians, Ukrainians, and Georgians, are largely mixed with Asians, not to mention that the Indo-Iranian group itself is half Asian and half European.
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« Reply #354 on: May 15, 2013, 11:36:42 PM »

It was the hierarchy of the canonical Greek Archdiocese of North and South America (Ecumenical Patriarchate), which had a policy, several decades ago, of forbidding racially mixed marriages (this according to a priest who had written one of those "xx Questions on the Orthodox Church" books published in those days). Granted, the policy seems to have been retired or at least kept quiet, since then.
That's weird. Alexander Pushkin the leading Russian classical poet- naturally an Orthodox- was 1/4 black from Ethiopia. Besides, Russians, Ukrainians, and Georgians, are largely mixed with Asians, not to mention that the Indo-Iranian group itself is half Asian and half European.
Greeks are also mixed with Turks a lot.  

I would like to know more about this ruling on Interracial Marriage, can anyone provide sources?

God help me, I am trying so hard not to turn this into an Old Calendarist discussion.
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« Reply #355 on: May 16, 2013, 12:26:21 AM »

Those of you who want Br. Nathanael silenced or defrocked, are you saying that you also wish the bishops of the canonical Greek Orthodox Church in America to be silenced or defrocked? Or is what's good for the goose, not good for the gander?

If they did it know? Yes.
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« Reply #356 on: May 16, 2013, 08:32:17 AM »

It was the hierarchy of the canonical Greek Archdiocese of North and South America (Ecumenical Patriarchate), which had a policy, several decades ago, of forbidding racially mixed marriages (this according to a priest who had written one of those "xx Questions on the Orthodox Church" books published in those days). Granted, the policy seems to have been retired or at least kept quiet, since then.

Those of you who want Br. Nathanael silenced or defrocked, are you saying that you also wish the bishops of the canonical Greek Orthodox Church in America to be silenced or defrocked?

As Michal said, yes, if the policy were ongoing. BTW, it was Fr. Stanley Harakas who wrote the "questions" book you allude to- he bases his position on the bizarre premise that God created the "races" and that we are somehow interfering with God's plan by mixing them. I hope that Fr. Stanley's position has changed since then.

Quote
The idea of a white Christian political bloc, and advocating for its strengthening, seems non-heretical and to be distinct from actual heresy. After all, if people from a group of African nations got together and said, "We want to formulate a powerful political bloc of African nations, to protect our peoples against inroads from European powers," absolutely no one would object.

When Europe is colonized and enslaved by foreign powers for a while, then your argument might start to make sense.

You are also confusing geographic and religious alliances with alliances based on race.
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« Reply #357 on: May 16, 2013, 12:11:26 PM »

It was the hierarchy of the canonical Greek Archdiocese of North and South America (Ecumenical Patriarchate), which had a policy, several decades ago, of forbidding racially mixed marriages (this according to a priest who had written one of those "xx Questions on the Orthodox Church" books published in those days). Granted, the policy seems to have been retired or at least kept quiet, since then.

Those of you who want Br. Nathanael silenced or defrocked, are you saying that you also wish the bishops of the canonical Greek Orthodox Church in America to be silenced or defrocked?

As Michal said, yes, if the policy were ongoing. BTW, it was Fr. Stanley Harakas who wrote the "questions" book you allude to- he bases his position on the bizarre premise that God created the "races" and that we are somehow interfering with God's plan by mixing them. I hope that Fr. Stanley's position has changed since then.

Quote
The idea of a white Christian political bloc, and advocating for its strengthening, seems non-heretical and to be distinct from actual heresy. After all, if people from a group of African nations got together and said, "We want to formulate a powerful political bloc of African nations, to protect our peoples against inroads from European powers," absolutely no one would object.

When Europe is colonized and enslaved by foreign powers for a while, then your argument might start to make sense.

You are also confusing geographic and religious alliances with alliances based on race.


There was a BBC documentary on a few years ago that gave me some better clarity on this issue. It is called "The Incredible Human Jounery" about human migration out of Africa.

It turns out that every person except for a few groups of modern Africans are all descended from a band of about 150 people who left Africa and crossed the Red Sea into the Middle East about 60,000 years ago. Races are merely an accommodation to climate and sexual preference.
It you put a band of people from Norway into equatorial Africa, they will be black in 30 generations. If you but Black people into Russian they will be  White skinned in about 30 generations.

Chinese look the way they do based on sexual preference. The type became sexually appealing at some point and they reinforced the look over time. When DNA tests are done, they too are descended from that same original band that left Africa.

So bans on race mixing or racist ideologies are certainly not God-Pleasing or scientifically sound IMHO
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« Reply #358 on: May 16, 2013, 01:09:43 PM »

It was the hierarchy of the canonical Greek Archdiocese of North and South America (Ecumenical Patriarchate), which had a policy, several decades ago, of forbidding racially mixed marriages (this according to a priest who had written one of those "xx Questions on the Orthodox Church" books published in those days). Granted, the policy seems to have been retired or at least kept quiet, since then.

Those of you who want Br. Nathanael silenced or defrocked, are you saying that you also wish the bishops of the canonical Greek Orthodox Church in America to be silenced or defrocked?

As Michal said, yes, if the policy were ongoing. BTW, it was Fr. Stanley Harakas who wrote the "questions" book you allude to- he bases his position on the bizarre premise that God created the "races" and that we are somehow interfering with God's plan by mixing them. I hope that Fr. Stanley's position has changed since then.

Quote
The idea of a white Christian political bloc, and advocating for its strengthening, seems non-heretical and to be distinct from actual heresy. After all, if people from a group of African nations got together and said, "We want to formulate a powerful political bloc of African nations, to protect our peoples against inroads from European powers," absolutely no one would object.

When Europe is colonized and enslaved by foreign powers for a while, then your argument might start to make sense.

You are also confusing geographic and religious alliances with alliances based on race.


Some would argue that mass third world immigration is a kind of colonization, against which native people (whites, at least in Europe) have a right to organize against collectively.
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J Michael
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« Reply #359 on: May 16, 2013, 01:31:39 PM »

It was the hierarchy of the canonical Greek Archdiocese of North and South America (Ecumenical Patriarchate), which had a policy, several decades ago, of forbidding racially mixed marriages (this according to a priest who had written one of those "xx Questions on the Orthodox Church" books published in those days). Granted, the policy seems to have been retired or at least kept quiet, since then.

Those of you who want Br. Nathanael silenced or defrocked, are you saying that you also wish the bishops of the canonical Greek Orthodox Church in America to be silenced or defrocked?

As Michal said, yes, if the policy were ongoing. BTW, it was Fr. Stanley Harakas who wrote the "questions" book you allude to- he bases his position on the bizarre premise that God created the "races" and that we are somehow interfering with God's plan by mixing them. I hope that Fr. Stanley's position has changed since then.

Quote
The idea of a white Christian political bloc, and advocating for its strengthening, seems non-heretical and to be distinct from actual heresy. After all, if people from a group of African nations got together and said, "We want to formulate a powerful political bloc of African nations, to protect our peoples against inroads from European powers," absolutely no one would object.

When Europe is colonized and enslaved by foreign powers for a while, then your argument might start to make sense.

You are also confusing geographic and religious alliances with alliances based on race.


Some would argue that mass third world immigration is a kind of colonization, against which native people (whites, at least in Europe) have a right to organize against collectively.

Uh...oh... Cool
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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Tags: Nathanael Kapner Br.(sic) Nathanael 
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