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Author Topic: Brother Nathaniel  (Read 29917 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #270 on: May 10, 2013, 04:45:08 PM »

People still believe this crap?
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« Reply #271 on: May 10, 2013, 04:49:32 PM »

People still believe this crap?

Why not?  Some still believe the earth is flat, too.
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« Reply #272 on: May 11, 2013, 10:33:29 PM »

Christ is risen.

There appears to be misuse of the word "Fascist." Do people understand what "Fascism" is? How in the world could it possibly relate to Br. Nathanael?

One thing is for sure - the issue of Br. Nathanael seems to provoke a drastic evaporation of rational thinking processes in many (not all!) of those who have strong reactions against him. I notice this strange phenomenon and I don't quite know what it means, but it appears that many of Br. Nathanael's messages or themes seem to run counter to things that people were taught by the secular educational system. It's a system which was and is designed to promote marxism and related anti-Christian thinking and values and weltanschauung, as Charlotte Isserby discovered and documented carefully. And when its planks which are meant to be swallowed whole as "givens" are challenged, then... woe betide.

I'm not painting everyone who really dislikes Br. Nathanael with the same brush.

By the way, it's really an awful slander and a grievous sin to ascribe to people sins which they don't have. So calling him hateful, or murderous, or fascist, or a nazi, or the various other absolutely outrageous and unhinged things he's been called in this thread, is not only dense, it's seriously sinful.

People mentioned the bizarre dress of Br. Nathanael (which doesn't sit well with me, by the way). But what did St. Xenia wear? Man's clothing. Do we accuse her, then, of cross-dressing, the overturning of society, confused gender or sexual identity, or any such nonsense? Of course not.

Could that one example (I could give others) somehow shed light on the case of Br. Nathanael?

Let's all show a certain elemental tolerance. Try to keep our minds open.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 10:35:48 PM by Fr.Aidan » Logged
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« Reply #273 on: May 11, 2013, 10:52:20 PM »

Christ is risen.

There appears to be misuse of the word "Fascist." Do people understand what "Fascism" is? How in the world could it possibly relate to Br. Nathanael?

One thing is for sure - the issue of Br. Nathanael seems to provoke a drastic evaporation of rational thinking processes in many (not all!) of those who have strong reactions against him. I notice this strange phenomenon and I don't quite know what it means, but it appears that many of Br. Nathanael's messages or themes seem to run counter to things that people were taught by the secular educational system. It's a system which was and is designed to promote marxism and related anti-Christian thinking and values and weltanschauung, as Charlotte Isserby discovered and documented carefully. And when its planks which are meant to be swallowed whole as "givens" are challenged, then... woe betide.

I'm not painting everyone who really dislikes Br. Nathanael with the same brush.

By the way, it's really an awful slander and a grievous sin to ascribe to people sins which they don't have. So calling him hateful, or murderous, or fascist, or a nazi, or the various other absolutely outrageous and unhinged things he's been called in this thread, is not only dense, it's seriously sinful.

People mentioned the bizarre dress of Br. Nathanael (which doesn't sit well with me, by the way). But what did St. Xenia wear? Man's clothing. Do we accuse her, then, of cross-dressing, the overturning of society, confused gender or sexual identity, or any such nonsense? Of course not.

Could that one example (I could give others) somehow shed light on the case of Br. Nathanael?

Let's all show a certain elemental tolerance. Try to keep our minds open.

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« Reply #274 on: May 12, 2013, 12:05:00 AM »

Christ is risen.

There appears to be misuse of the word "Fascist." Do people understand what "Fascism" is? How in the world could it possibly relate to Br. Nathanael?

One thing is for sure - the issue of Br. Nathanael seems to provoke a drastic evaporation of rational thinking processes in many (not all!) of those who have strong reactions against him. I notice this strange phenomenon and I don't quite know what it means, but it appears that many of Br. Nathanael's messages or themes seem to run counter to things that people were taught by the secular educational system. It's a system which was and is designed to promote marxism and related anti-Christian thinking and values and weltanschauung, as Charlotte Isserby discovered and documented carefully. And when its planks which are meant to be swallowed whole as "givens" are challenged, then... woe betide.

I'm not painting everyone who really dislikes Br. Nathanael with the same brush.

By the way, it's really an awful slander and a grievous sin to ascribe to people sins which they don't have. So calling him hateful, or murderous, or fascist, or a nazi, or the various other absolutely outrageous and unhinged things he's been called in this thread, is not only dense, it's seriously sinful.

People mentioned the bizarre dress of Br. Nathanael (which doesn't sit well with me, by the way). But what did St. Xenia wear? Man's clothing. Do we accuse her, then, of cross-dressing, the overturning of society, confused gender or sexual identity, or any such nonsense? Of course not.

Could that one example (I could give others) somehow shed light on the case of Br. Nathanael?

Let's all show a certain elemental tolerance. Try to keep our minds open.

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« Reply #275 on: May 12, 2013, 12:08:03 AM »

He claims to be affiliated with ROCOR:
Quote
Brother Nathanael Kapner is a recognized monastic with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Of Russia (ROCOR) where he is officially recognized as a "poslushnik"/"novice" monk.
http://brothernathanaelfoundation.org/about

I claim I'm an emperor of Saturn. Kneel in front of me.

Quote
I'm thinking that if someone is interested enough it shouldn't be too difficult to confirm that--or that he's not.

Yeah. Ask every ROCOR abbot and bishop. Piece of cake.

Quote
Official affiliation with a monastery is another matter, though.

Every monk has to be affiliated to a monastery or directly to a bishop.

NOVICES ARE NOT MONKS.

I thought the monastery he is in was affiliated with HOCNA

Maybe before he was affiliated with ROCOR??  I don't know.  And I don't really care  Wink.  The man comes across as an attention-seeking, bigoted nut-job.  But, then again, he just might be a holy fool for Christ.   Grin

Nathaniel started out at HTM (which has been in HOCNA now for a while) and then was with Abp Gregory of Colorado in Dormition Skete.  He was a novice in both monasteries.  He then left the "true" Orthodox Church that was Abp Gregory's own creation and he was received back into ROCOR.  Since he does not now belong to a monastery, it is true that he should not be considered a monk or a novice.  Personally, his posing as a monk, his attire, and his strange "missionary" labors are the most off-putting to me and the most damaging to his credibility.  He has a good understanding of Zionism and the influence of Jewish movements in America and in the world, but the role he plays in this area clashes with the image he promotes of himself as an Orthodox monk.  I think it would be better for him to choose to either:

1) Join an actual monastery and become a monk, leaving behind involvement in exposing the politics of this world, including the exposure of Jewish movements that are harmful to our country and world.

2) Keep the videos and article going, but dress appropriately as a layman and without the goofy "street evangelism"

I think his labors would be more effective if he were to choose.


I favor option 1 for him, with a vow of silence and exile in an obscure Siberian monastery without Internet access.
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« Reply #276 on: May 12, 2013, 12:11:53 AM »

So what is the point in hiding what his monastery is?

A few additional questions:

Why is the "novice outside the monastery thing" allowed and what is the point in it?
What is the canonical basis of the "novice outside the monastery" thing?
Why is he allowed to mock monastic garment with wearing stuff he is not allowed to (ryasa, white klobuk, pectoral cross)?
Why is he allowed to keep being an internet phenomena, and not make to do traditional novice duties (you know, the ones with rakes, hoes, brooms etc.)?
Why is he allowed to ridicule ROCOR?

(assuming he indeed is a "secret novice")

Bizarre and disorderly indeed. Not a credit to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #277 on: May 12, 2013, 12:14:19 AM »

What authority do you have to say that he is wearing what he is not allowed?

Even if he is a novitiate, he is not tonsured yet. Riasophore, stavrophore - ring a bell? Not to mention metropolitan's klobuk.

If he is a novice anywhere and not simply a poser, he must be under obedience. Therefore, someone in authority over him must bless the videos and other things he does. If not, then we have a problem. We have not monasticism, but vanity masquerading as some kind of public service.
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« Reply #278 on: May 12, 2013, 12:16:25 AM »

What authority do you have to say that he is wearing what he is not allowed?

Even if he is a novitiate, he is not tonsured yet. Riasophore, stavrophore - ring a bell? Not to mention metropolitan's klobuk.

Again, who made you his Bishop?  I happen to know the ranks of the monks quite well.  My Godfather is one (an Igumen).  I was blessed to wear the riasa before I was tonsured as a Reader.  In fact, I was required to wear one while performing my duties behind the altar, as were all the men who served in the same capacity as I did.  Later, I was allowed to wear it in the Serbian Church when performing my duties by virtue of my blessing to wear it previously.  Other men were not allowed to wear it as it was not the Serbian tradition to do so.  It is up to the Bishop as to how we are to dress, not you.  Again, do you know that his Bishop has NOT blessed him to wear what he wears?  No, you do not.  Nor do you or anyone else on this forum know all of the exceptions to the "rules" that are out there.  Here in the United States, we are lucky if the Canons are followed, let alone any particular dress code.  I know that the ROCOR is pretty good at kicking people out who do not do what they are told.  I have run ac cross many such men in my time.  If Br. Nathaniel is ROCOR (and I believe he is in spite of some people's claimed "knowledge" to the contrary), he has been blessed to do what he does.   

Wearing the riasa whilst performing a liturgical function is quite different than wearing the riasa outside of liturgical function, if one does not hold holy orders.
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« Reply #279 on: May 12, 2013, 12:17:58 AM »

this video he made he explains how he got into the orthodox church

his first attendence was at a russian orthodox "Holy Trinity Orthodox Cathedral" in Boston

I would assume this was already posted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hjf4AUeBRc

I changed my mind, he seems pretty nice. a little crazy, but nice... i think...

Hitler was said to be very charming. Good listener.. Veterinarian... Artist

Veterinarian?
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« Reply #280 on: May 12, 2013, 12:20:44 AM »

this video he made he explains how he got into the orthodox church

his first attendence was at a russian orthodox "Holy Trinity Orthodox Cathedral" in Boston

I would assume this was already posted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hjf4AUeBRc

I changed my mind, he seems pretty nice. a little crazy, but nice... i think...

Hitler was said to be very charming. Good listener.. Veterinarian... Artist

I was present when a Jewish lady spoke of the time she was a child and walking along a road near the Kehlsteinhaus or Eagles Nest with her mother. They were nearly run down by the Fuhrer's car. It stopped and the Fuhrer got out and was effusive in his concern for a shaken and frightened mother and child.

Certainly Herr Hitler could be charming, was particular about his diet and loved dogs. But like Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot he was a truly frightening and murderous monster. Brother Nathaniel cannot be likened to any of them. As to his narrative about his Jewish teacher's singular disdain for Christianity, this rings bells and in writing this I do so having spent much time in contact with Jews, religious and secular, over decades. Anti-Christian sentiments have been expressed in graffiti on Church and Monastery buildings in Israel and elsewhere. I have the opposite response to from very conservative religious Jews.

Some seen to criticise Brother Nathaniel on little more than he's committed the unforgivable sin of raising concerns about the exercise of power and influence by individuals and groups he names. He certainly appears to have done some serious research. Whether he interprets that same research in a balanced and credible way may be another thing.

What all these revoluntaries had in common was a commitment to killing at least 10 per cent of their populations and identifying scapegoats, supposed enemies of the struggle and the expendable in the population in order to build the new society. This is as true of the horrendous French Revolution through the various 20th Century movements. However Marxists have a new strategy, the destruction of culture, institutions, values and morality. In my opinion Brother Nathaniel needs the oxygen of publicity like a hole in head. There are far bigger issues in the world.

LOL I made a spelling goof again. He was not a Veterinarian.. He was a Vegetarian. He loved animals.

Nice guy from all accounts.. Maybe a littel crazy

He had some good ideas at first. He just went a little crazy. Okay, that was Marge Schott.
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« Reply #281 on: May 12, 2013, 02:06:11 AM »

I don't care how accurate his claims are, he frames his arguments in a hateful and incediary manner. Who are these mysterious "Jews" he keeps talking about? The Jewish people are not a homogenous body of greedy Zionist truth-suppressors, as he would have you believe. The Jewish people represent a wide range of nationalities, education levels, religious views, and political views. Don't you guys understand the thresholds of sanity you have to cross to come to the conclusion that all people of a particular descent think and act exactly the same?

Read this statement:

"The Arabs' victory over France is now complete. The alien domination of an elite, self-conscious group, who see the world in terms of 'us' & 'them,' has flowed into every pore of French society with its anti-Christian views."

How is that not okay, but this is:

Quote
Jewry’s victory over America is now complete. The alien domination of an elite, self-conscious group, who see the world in terms of “us” & “them,” has flowed into every pore of American society with its Anti-Christian views.
Source: http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=353

Yes, those Yemenite Jews have really been longing for the day when their totally separated distant cousins in America, who hold virtually none of the same religious views and live a completely different lifestyle, would conquer America for all Jews in the world! And those Messianic Jews, those Crypto-Talmudists, secretly rejoice every time an Ultra-Orthodox Israeli Jew desecrates a church.

Do you guys honestly believe that there was even one Jewish person who died in the Holocaust who was secretly planning to take over the world before Hitler "heroically saved" the pure white German race? Don't you see what he so successfully did to brainwash a whole country into participating in mass genocide and other horrendous crimes against humanity? He took a very very very small subset of people (wealthy bankers and businessmen lacking moral scruples), identified the common link (their Jewish ethnicity, which is not a coincidence, since Jews, no stranger to scapegoating before the Third Reich, were often forced into such unpopular jobs), then made a completely unjustified but "credible" blanket statement that the evil must come from the ethnicity itself. NOT the social circumstances of certain members of the ethnicity (German Jews were particularly well received during the Enlightenment; flawed human beings prospered then and some sacrificed their morality for success). If that had been the conclusion that Hitler preached, Germany might have just developed new finance laws to cut down on monopolies and the corruption inherent to them. But Hitler did not target bad behavior; he targeted AN ENTIRE RACE OF PEOPLE. And his message has been rehashed over and over again by various white supremacist groups, and I believe that Brother Nathanael has been sucked into their ignorance and hate.

Do I think Brother Nathanael should be shut down? No. I think he certainly raises some eye-opening critiques of this decadent, anti-religious society that we live in. But he goes about it all wrong. He thinks the evil lies in a particular bloodline of people. In his articles, he calls out "The Jews," less commonly the "Zionist Jews" and rarely (if ever) the individual characters of the people who have committed crimes. His methods do not promote honest reflection; they promote baseless hatred and misdirected anger.

I'm Jewish, and I'm heartbroken to read that some people still think that it's okay to go about attacking a whole people because of certain people who, by birth alone, are a part of it. There is no uniform "Jewish Race" to which people can point and accuse. This is a myth. This is not how the world works. If you want to call me a liar who's covering up for his Zionist Christian-hating friends and relatives, fine, be my guest. I pray that one day you may see the truth.

And to be clear: I would never call Brother Nathanael a fascist or a nazi, or Hitler Jr. That's just utter hyperbole. He's not a war criminal, not even remotely close. He's just a normal person with some particularly dangerous and distorted views. I would call him a confused man who, in a state of vulnerability, has allowed hate to flow through him and spread through his words.

Lord God have mercy on my soul.

...Christ is Risen!
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« Reply #282 on: May 12, 2013, 10:50:15 AM »

Christ is risen.

There appears to be misuse of the word "Fascist." Do people understand what "Fascism" is? How in the world could it possibly relate to Br. Nathanael?

One thing is for sure - the issue of Br. Nathanael seems to provoke a drastic evaporation of rational thinking processes in many (not all!) of those who have strong reactions against him. I notice this strange phenomenon and I don't quite know what it means, but it appears that many of Br. Nathanael's messages or themes seem to run counter to things that people were taught by the secular educational system. It's a system which was and is designed to promote marxism and related anti-Christian thinking and values and weltanschauung, as Charlotte Isserby discovered and documented carefully. And when its planks which are meant to be swallowed whole as "givens" are challenged, then... woe betide.

I'm not painting everyone who really dislikes Br. Nathanael with the same brush.

By the way, it's really an awful slander and a grievous sin to ascribe to people sins which they don't have. So calling him hateful, or murderous, or fascist, or a nazi, or the various other absolutely outrageous and unhinged things he's been called in this thread, is not only dense, it's seriously sinful.

People mentioned the bizarre dress of Br. Nathanael (which doesn't sit well with me, by the way). But what did St. Xenia wear? Man's clothing. Do we accuse her, then, of cross-dressing, the overturning of society, confused gender or sexual identity, or any such nonsense? Of course not.

Could that one example (I could give others) somehow shed light on the case of Br. Nathanael?

Let's all show a certain elemental tolerance. Try to keep our minds open.

Criticism of the guy is not at all muddled or unclear. He is a rabid Anti Semite who maintains an extreme conspiratorial view of history very similar to the Fascists in World War Two.

His appearance as a fool is probably calculated to spackle over his fringe message. Or he is just plain old mentally ill. Comparing a hateful bigot like Nathanael  to a Saint like Xenia is blasphemous IMHO.

Either way he deserved pity and pray, not support and encouragement.

Discerning Good from Evil is an important skill for Christians.  
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 10:51:14 AM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #283 on: May 12, 2013, 11:19:30 AM »

Here is his latest You Tube... In the middle he takes a shot at
"Race Mixing".. I guess he needs to keep his friends in the White Supremacist Movement happy.

Clearly racist stuff... Told ya so. Smiley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mY8GqwnjJs&feature=em-subs_digest

 
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« Reply #284 on: May 12, 2013, 11:28:17 AM »

Oh and read the comments of his followers under the You Tube.. It's full up with White Supremacist comments. I especially like the guy whose photo is of a German Soldier wearing his helmet... Sad ..yet kinda funny





 
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« Reply #285 on: May 12, 2013, 01:53:09 PM »

Do you guys honestly believe that there was even one Jewish person who died in the Holocaust who was secretly planning to take over the world before Hitler "heroically saved" the pure white German race? 

Of course not!  The ones that were trying to take over the world used their money to escape Germany and come to the US where they could buy the Government and continue their evil work in relative safety.  Man, don't you ever read Stormfront?
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« Reply #286 on: May 12, 2013, 02:30:48 PM »

Do you guys honestly believe that there was even one Jewish person who died in the Holocaust who was secretly planning to take over the world before Hitler "heroically saved" the pure white German race? 

Of course not!  The ones that were trying to take over the world used their money to escape Germany and come to the US where they could buy the Government and continue their evil work in relative safety.  Man, don't you ever read Stormfront?

Stormfront, is this a meteorological journal?
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« Reply #287 on: May 12, 2013, 02:55:58 PM »

I don't care how accurate his claims are, he frames his arguments in a hateful and incediary manner. Who are these mysterious "Jews" he keeps talking about? The Jewish people are not a homogenous body of greedy Zionist truth-suppressors, as he would have you believe. The Jewish people represent a wide range of nationalities, education levels, religious views, and political views. Don't you guys understand the thresholds of sanity you have to cross to come to the conclusion that all people of a particular descent think and act exactly the same?

Read this statement:

"The Arabs' victory over France is now complete. The alien domination of an elite, self-conscious group, who see the world in terms of 'us' & 'them,' has flowed into every pore of French society with its anti-Christian views."

How is that not okay, but this is:

Quote
Jewry’s victory over America is now complete. The alien domination of an elite, self-conscious group, who see the world in terms of “us” & “them,” has flowed into every pore of American society with its Anti-Christian views.
Source: http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=353

Yes, those Yemenite Jews have really been longing for the day when their totally separated distant cousins in America, who hold virtually none of the same religious views and live a completely different lifestyle, would conquer America for all Jews in the world! And those Messianic Jews, those Crypto-Talmudists, secretly rejoice every time an Ultra-Orthodox Israeli Jew desecrates a church.

Do you guys honestly believe that there was even one Jewish person who died in the Holocaust who was secretly planning to take over the world before Hitler "heroically saved" the pure white German race? Don't you see what he so successfully did to brainwash a whole country into participating in mass genocide and other horrendous crimes against humanity? He took a very very very small subset of people (wealthy bankers and businessmen lacking moral scruples), identified the common link (their Jewish ethnicity, which is not a coincidence, since Jews, no stranger to scapegoating before the Third Reich, were often forced into such unpopular jobs), then made a completely unjustified but "credible" blanket statement that the evil must come from the ethnicity itself. NOT the social circumstances of certain members of the ethnicity (German Jews were particularly well received during the Enlightenment; flawed human beings prospered then and some sacrificed their morality for success). If that had been the conclusion that Hitler preached, Germany might have just developed new finance laws to cut down on monopolies and the corruption inherent to them. But Hitler did not target bad behavior; he targeted AN ENTIRE RACE OF PEOPLE. And his message has been rehashed over and over again by various white supremacist groups, and I believe that Brother Nathanael has been sucked into their ignorance and hate.

Do I think Brother Nathanael should be shut down? No. I think he certainly raises some eye-opening critiques of this decadent, anti-religious society that we live in. But he goes about it all wrong. He thinks the evil lies in a particular bloodline of people. In his articles, he calls out "The Jews," less commonly the "Zionist Jews" and rarely (if ever) the individual characters of the people who have committed crimes. His methods do not promote honest reflection; they promote baseless hatred and misdirected anger.

I'm Jewish, and I'm heartbroken to read that some people still think that it's okay to go about attacking a whole people because of certain people who, by birth alone, are a part of it. There is no uniform "Jewish Race" to which people can point and accuse. This is a myth. This is not how the world works. If you want to call me a liar who's covering up for his Zionist Christian-hating friends and relatives, fine, be my guest. I pray that one day you may see the truth.

And to be clear: I would never call Brother Nathanael a fascist or a nazi, or Hitler Jr. That's just utter hyperbole. He's not a war criminal, not even remotely close. He's just a normal person with some particularly dangerous and distorted views. I would call him a confused man who, in a state of vulnerability, has allowed hate to flow through him and spread through his words.

Lord God have mercy on my soul.

...Christ is Risen!

Indeed He is Risen! Thank you for your wise observations.
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« Reply #288 on: May 12, 2013, 03:09:19 PM »

"White identity is indeed a necessary component in resisting the nightmare of multi-racialism that the Jewish agenda brought to America and throughout Europe.  International Jewry's intention, objective, and aim?  To destroy the one force that could oppose them, namely, a white Christian political power block...  The Christian roots of white nations are deep and sturdy.  With a little pruning and lots of fencing about, we can make that tree of white nations grow to a great and magnificent height once again."  -Brother Nathaniel

So he's not a white supremacist, eh?  This is from his video, "Christian Roots of White Nations"  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-bIhTwI7OU

I have yet to hear him preach the good news of Jesus Christ.  But then again, can a thistle bring forth figs?
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« Reply #289 on: May 12, 2013, 03:20:51 PM »

"White identity is indeed a necessary component in resisting the nightmare of multi-racialism..."  -Brother Nathaniel

This is heresy.
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« Reply #290 on: May 12, 2013, 03:22:36 PM »

Do you guys honestly believe that there was even one Jewish person who died in the Holocaust who was secretly planning to take over the world before Hitler "heroically saved" the pure white German race? 

Of course not!  The ones that were trying to take over the world used their money to escape Germany and come to the US where they could buy the Government and continue their evil work in relative safety.  Man, don't you ever read Stormfront?

Stormfront, is this a meteorological journal?

LOL
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« Reply #291 on: May 12, 2013, 04:08:18 PM »

Do you guys honestly believe that there was even one Jewish person who died in the Holocaust who was secretly planning to take over the world before Hitler "heroically saved" the pure white German race? 

Of course not!  The ones that were trying to take over the world used their money to escape Germany and come to the US where they could buy the Government and continue their evil work in relative safety.  Man, don't you ever read Stormfront?

Stormfront, is this a meteorological journal?

First Dresden Files novel.
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« Reply #292 on: May 12, 2013, 04:22:04 PM »

Brother Nathaniel has a PO Box in Frisco, CO which is right in the middle of Archbishop Gregory's area.  I've actually been to Frisco, CO.  There is a ROCOR Church in Denver.  There's no other ROCOR monastery nearby.

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« Reply #293 on: May 13, 2013, 12:36:32 AM »

What authority do you have to say that he is wearing what he is not allowed?

Even if he is a novitiate, he is not tonsured yet. Riasophore, stavrophore - ring a bell? Not to mention metropolitan's klobuk.

If he is a novice anywhere and not simply a poser, he must be under obedience. Therefore, someone in authority over him must bless the videos and other things he does. If not, then we have a problem. We have not monasticism, but vanity masquerading as some kind of public service.

Could a novice monastic operate a foundation with full legal and accounting representation (and receive the appropriate blessing from his superiors to do so)?  His foundation website says that he speaks ... "not in any official capacity with the ROCOR jurisdiction."

http://brothernathanaelfoundation.org/about
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« Reply #294 on: May 13, 2013, 11:15:00 AM »

What authority do you have to say that he is wearing what he is not allowed?

Even if he is a novitiate, he is not tonsured yet. Riasophore, stavrophore - ring a bell? Not to mention metropolitan's klobuk.

If he is a novice anywhere and not simply a poser, he must be under obedience. Therefore, someone in authority over him must bless the videos and other things he does. If not, then we have a problem. We have not monasticism, but vanity masquerading as some kind of public service.

Could a novice monastic operate a foundation with full legal and accounting representation (and receive the appropriate blessing from his superiors to do so)?  His foundation website says that he speaks ... "not in any official capacity with the ROCOR jurisdiction."

http://brothernathanaelfoundation.org/about

I would think that whatever he does, as a novice, would be subject to the abbot overseeing him. Otherwise, I'm not sure what kind of novice status he can claim, if that's even a status.
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« Reply #295 on: May 13, 2013, 11:43:01 AM »

What authority do you have to say that he is wearing what he is not allowed?

Even if he is a novitiate, he is not tonsured yet. Riasophore, stavrophore - ring a bell? Not to mention metropolitan's klobuk.

If he is a novice anywhere and not simply a poser, he must be under obedience. Therefore, someone in authority over him must bless the videos and other things he does. If not, then we have a problem. We have not monasticism, but vanity masquerading as some kind of public service.

Could a novice monastic operate a foundation with full legal and accounting representation (and receive the appropriate blessing from his superiors to do so)?  His foundation website says that he speaks ... "not in any official capacity with the ROCOR jurisdiction."

http://brothernathanaelfoundation.org/about

I would think that whatever he does, as a novice, would be subject to the abbot overseeing him. Otherwise, I'm not sure what kind of novice status he can claim, if that's even a status.

Whatever he is, and whatever nonsense he spews out and whatever he purports to be, is not of the same faith and from the same heart as the Orthodox Church in which I was brought up, try to serve faithfully and love. Keeping him in your prayers that he may find the true light is all that one can do.

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« Reply #296 on: May 14, 2013, 10:28:20 AM »

Whatever he is, and whatever nonsense he spews out and whatever he purports to be, is not of the same faith and from the same heart as the Orthodox Church in which I was brought up, try to serve faithfully and love. Keeping him in your prayers that he may find the true light is all that one can do.

Theologically, I have not heard him say anything incorrect (though I have only watched a few of his videos). His politics, Jewish conspiracy theories, weird dress, and clownish behaviour is another matter.
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« Reply #297 on: May 14, 2013, 10:49:33 AM »

Whatever he is, and whatever nonsense he spews out and whatever he purports to be, is not of the same faith and from the same heart as the Orthodox Church in which I was brought up, try to serve faithfully and love. Keeping him in your prayers that he may find the true light is all that one can do.

Theologically, I have not heard him say anything incorrect (though I have only watched a few of his videos). His politics, Jewish conspiracy theories, weird dress, and clownish behaviour is another matter.

This brings up an interesting question. At what point, if any, do extreme political views cross over into being counter to Orthodox Christian teachings.

He may fully understand and believe the Church's teachings on the Trinity and all theological doctrines. But let's hypothesize that he continues to push past his Jewish Conspiracy theories into Racism against Blacks and Hispanics. He is already condemning "Race Mixing". How bigoted can a tonsured person be and still be in communion with The Church?.. I don't know myself but it's an interesting question.

    
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« Reply #298 on: May 14, 2013, 11:02:28 AM »

This brings up an interesting question. At what point, if any, do extreme political views cross over into being counter to Orthodox Christian teachings.

I think that depends on the nature of those extreme views. If those extreme views involve intentional dishonesty that's obviously a sin - but extreme views can be honestly held and propagated even if they're factually incorrect.

Quote
He may fully understand and believe the Church's teachings on the Trinity and all theological doctrines. But let's hypothesize that he continues to push past his Jewish Conspiracy theories into Racism against Blacks and Hispanics. He is already condemning "Race Mixing". How bigoted can a tonsured person be and still be in communion with The Church?.. I don't know myself but it's an interesting question.

On what grounds does he oppose race mixing? God giving Miriam leprosy after hers and Aaron's objection to Moses' marriage to an Ethiopian woman gives us a fairly clear indication of how God feels about the subject. However, if someone does not oppose "race mixing" per se, but considers the promotion thereof by the elites to be an attempt to undermine the cultural heritage of European/Western civilisation and thereby weaken the standing and influence of Christianity, this might be seriously misguided but I don't think one can call it heresy - it belongs to the realm of politics.
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« Reply #299 on: May 14, 2013, 11:05:56 AM »

Bigotry is a relatively recently defined term and really has no theological basis unless it involves hatred.  Modern liberals cannot tell the difference between hatred and other emotions since anything that even slightly goes against what they feel good about is hatred.  Rational people, on the other hand,  can differentiate between not wanting your offspring to marry into another social / racial group and shunning them if they do.  There is nothing "non-Canonical" about recognizing that marriage is difficult enough without bringing in other differences and issues.  On the other hand, not accepting a person of another race into your family after the die has been cast is a completely other matter.

Whatever he is, and whatever nonsense he spews out and whatever he purports to be, is not of the same faith and from the same heart as the Orthodox Church in which I was brought up, try to serve faithfully and love. Keeping him in your prayers that he may find the true light is all that one can do.

Theologically, I have not heard him say anything incorrect (though I have only watched a few of his videos). His politics, Jewish conspiracy theories, weird dress, and clownish behaviour is another matter.

This brings up an interesting question. At what point, if any, do extreme political views cross over into being counter to Orthodox Christian teachings.

He may fully understand and believe the Church's teachings on the Trinity and all theological doctrines. But let's hypothesize that he continues to push past his Jewish Conspiracy theories into Racism against Blacks and Hispanics. He is already condemning "Race Mixing". How bigoted can a tonsured person be and still be in communion with The Church?.. I don't know myself but it's an interesting question.

    
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« Reply #300 on: May 14, 2013, 11:13:45 AM »

This brings up an interesting question. At what point, if any, do extreme political views cross over into being counter to Orthodox Christian teachings.

I think that depends on the nature of those extreme views. If those extreme views involve intentional dishonesty that's obviously a sin - but extreme views can be honestly held and propagated even if they're factually incorrect.

Quote
He may fully understand and believe the Church's teachings on the Trinity and all theological doctrines. But let's hypothesize that he continues to push past his Jewish Conspiracy theories into Racism against Blacks and Hispanics. He is already condemning "Race Mixing". How bigoted can a tonsured person be and still be in communion with The Church?.. I don't know myself but it's an interesting question.

On what grounds does he oppose race mixing? God giving Miriam leprosy after hers and Aaron's objection to Moses' marriage to an Ethiopian woman gives us a fairly clear indication of how God feels about the subject. However, if someone does not oppose "race mixing" per se, but considers the promotion thereof by the elites to be an attempt to undermine the cultural heritage of European/Western civilisation and thereby weaken the standing and influence of Christianity, this might be seriously misguided but I don't think one can call it heresy - it belongs to the realm of politics.

His comments on Race Mixing are typical of modern Neo Nazi ideology. He mushes it in with opposition to immigration reform.

Let's consider an extreme hypothetical. Let's say the national leader of the Ku Klux Klan decides to convert to Orthodoxy but does not change any of his other views and continues on as the head of the Klan. Would he be allowed communion? What of Nathanael if his position keeps getting more and more extreme and overtly racist?
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« Reply #301 on: May 14, 2013, 11:21:47 AM »

Bigotry is a relatively recently defined term and really has no theological basis unless it involves hatred.  Modern liberals cannot tell the difference between hatred and other emotions since anything that even slightly goes against what the feel good about is hatred.  Rational people, on the other hand,  can differentiate between not wanting your offspring to marry into another social / racial group and shunning them if they do.  There is nothing "non-Canonical" about recognizing that marriage is difficult enough without bringing in other differences and issues.  On the other hand, not accepting a person of another race into your family after the die has been cast is a completely other matter.

Whatever he is, and whatever nonsense he spews out and whatever he purports to be, is not of the same faith and from the same heart as the Orthodox Church in which I was brought up, try to serve faithfully and love. Keeping him in your prayers that he may find the true light is all that one can do.

Theologically, I have not heard him say anything incorrect (though I have only watched a few of his videos). His politics, Jewish conspiracy theories, weird dress, and clownish behaviour is another matter.

This brings up an interesting question. At what point, if any, do extreme political views cross over into being counter to Orthodox Christian teachings.

He may fully understand and believe the Church's teachings on the Trinity and all theological doctrines. But let's hypothesize that he continues to push past his Jewish Conspiracy theories into Racism against Blacks and Hispanics. He is already condemning "Race Mixing". How bigoted can a tonsured person be and still be in communion with The Church?.. I don't know myself but it's an interesting question.

    
You are fogging up the question. People are free to accept or reject other people as friends or into their family via marriage for example. It's a free country. Dislike whomever fails to please you.

On the other hand opposing Racism as a political formulation has nothing to do with "Feelings". It has  divided people in an unhealthy way and has a very sad history in this country. Calling out people like Nathanael who suggest old racist formulations about "Race Mixing" and promotes Anti-Jewish bigotry has concrete justification based on history and long experience with hate mongering in the USA. 
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« Reply #302 on: May 14, 2013, 11:29:53 AM »

Let's consider an extreme hypothetical. Let's say the national leader of the Ku Klux Klan decides to convert to Orthodoxy but does not change any of his other views and continues on as the head of the Klan. Would he be allowed communion?

The Klan has a history of violence, murder, blind hatred, etc. Even if one does not condone those, being the leader of a group with such a history is different to being a private individual representing only yourself.

I think there is a difference between opposing mixed-marriage because you think it will lead to some kind of social difficulties (I'm not suggesting I agree, btw) and opposing it out of hatred or because you consider other races inherently inferior.

Quote
What of Nathanael if his position keeps getting more and more extreme and overtly racist?

If his preaching becomes overtly racist, then the Church should take some kind of action.
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« Reply #303 on: May 14, 2013, 11:38:07 AM »

Let's consider an extreme hypothetical. Let's say the national leader of the Ku Klux Klan decides to convert to Orthodoxy but does not change any of his other views and continues on as the head of the Klan. Would he be allowed communion?

The Klan has a history of violence, murder, blind hatred, etc. Even if one does not condone those, being the leader of a group with such a history is different to being a private individual representing only yourself.

I think there is a difference between opposing mixed-marriage because you think it will lead to some kind of social difficulties (I'm not suggesting I agree, btw) and opposing it out of hatred or because you consider other races inherently inferior.

Quote


What of Nathanael if his position keeps getting more and more extreme and overtly racist?

If his preaching becomes overtly racist, then the Church should take some kind of action.

That makes sense. So let's back down one notch from leader of a group with a known history of violence to a public activist like Nathanael. He is representing only himself but he is a political activist publicly and aggressively promoting these theories.

 I think that is less than leader of a group ( though it appears he does have dedicated followers and an organization going) but something more than an individual sitting in his basement privately ruminating.
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« Reply #304 on: May 14, 2013, 11:41:59 AM »

He is representing only himself but he is a political activist publicly and aggressively promoting these theories.

From what I have seen (and, as I said, I haven't seen all that much), while I may not agree with much of what he says, I can't say that any of the ideas he is pushing are overtly hateful or heretical.
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« Reply #305 on: May 14, 2013, 11:57:46 AM »

Whatever he is, and whatever nonsense he spews out and whatever he purports to be, is not of the same faith and from the same heart as the Orthodox Church in which I was brought up, try to serve faithfully and love. Keeping him in your prayers that he may find the true light is all that one can do.

Theologically, I have not heard him say anything incorrect (though I have only watched a few of his videos). His politics, Jewish conspiracy theories, weird dress, and clownish behaviour is another matter.

This brings up an interesting question. At what point, if any, do extreme political views cross over into being counter to Orthodox Christian teachings.

He may fully understand and believe the Church's teachings on the Trinity and all theological doctrines. But let's hypothesize that he continues to push past his Jewish Conspiracy theories into Racism against Blacks and Hispanics. He is already condemning "Race Mixing". How bigoted can a tonsured person be and still be in communion with The Church?.. I don't know myself but it's an interesting question.

   

In answer I recall a woman in the London congregation of ROCOR under Bishop Nikodem of blessed memory who was heavily involved in a circle of aristocrats who worked tirelessly to undermine the British war effort. This group nearly torpedoed covert American presidential support for isolated Britain's effort at the time. She was a wholehearted supporter of Third Reich policies and a rabid Jew hater. Their activities were stopped and arrests made, including that of a cypher clerk at the American Embassy. Anna was arrested, tried and jailed.

When I met her she had long been forbidden to approach the chalice on account of her rabid Jew hatred. Of course, in her case she had gone beyond simply expressing views and actively tried to support the Third Reich's war time ambitions, including those directed at Jews.
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« Reply #306 on: May 14, 2013, 11:59:40 AM »

How does Br Nathaniel conceive of the "white race"? If it's really a race, i.e. a genetic thing, then how can he claim to identify with it? You can't just convert to another gene pool; he will always be a racial Jew, regardless of his beliefs. Or does he conceive of it in purely cultural terms, i.e. as a proxy for "Christendom" or something like that?
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« Reply #307 on: May 14, 2013, 12:08:41 PM »

"Feelings" tend to turn into political viewpoints.  You cannot say that a person has a right to believe a certain way, and then say that he cannot act upon that right.  I find it cute how some people acknowledge that it is a person's "right" to believe that two men should not get married, but to vote against law to allow such is "hatred" (and other issues likewise).  So, if a person does not think that races should mix, should we be at all shocked that he would speak against it?  It is OK to believe but not to speak?

Bigotry is a relatively recently defined term and really has no theological basis unless it involves hatred.  Modern liberals cannot tell the difference between hatred and other emotions since anything that even slightly goes against what the feel good about is hatred.  Rational people, on the other hand,  can differentiate between not wanting your offspring to marry into another social / racial group and shunning them if they do.  There is nothing "non-Canonical" about recognizing that marriage is difficult enough without bringing in other differences and issues.  On the other hand, not accepting a person of another race into your family after the die has been cast is a completely other matter.

Whatever he is, and whatever nonsense he spews out and whatever he purports to be, is not of the same faith and from the same heart as the Orthodox Church in which I was brought up, try to serve faithfully and love. Keeping him in your prayers that he may find the true light is all that one can do.

Theologically, I have not heard him say anything incorrect (though I have only watched a few of his videos). His politics, Jewish conspiracy theories, weird dress, and clownish behaviour is another matter.

This brings up an interesting question. At what point, if any, do extreme political views cross over into being counter to Orthodox Christian teachings.

He may fully understand and believe the Church's teachings on the Trinity and all theological doctrines. But let's hypothesize that he continues to push past his Jewish Conspiracy theories into Racism against Blacks and Hispanics. He is already condemning "Race Mixing". How bigoted can a tonsured person be and still be in communion with The Church?.. I don't know myself but it's an interesting question.

    
You are fogging up the question. People are free to accept or reject other people as friends or into their family via marriage for example. It's a free country. Dislike whomever fails to please you.

On the other hand opposing Racism as a political formulation has nothing to do with "Feelings". It has  divided people in an unhealthy way and has a very sad history in this country. Calling out people like Nathanael who suggest old racist formulations about "Race Mixing" and promotes Anti-Jewish bigotry has concrete justification based on history and long experience with hate mongering in the USA. 
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« Reply #308 on: May 14, 2013, 12:32:20 PM »

Christ is risen!

I have a question for the anti-Br.-Nathanael persons on here (whose opinions I do not automatically dismiss, as I try to keep an open mind).

If there were an official policy statement issued, that an Orthodox Christian may not marry someone of a different race, would the bishops responsible for drafting this policy be in a category of people who should be deprived of Holy Communion? Or otherwise disciplined or silenced from having authority in the Church and deciding such questions? Should such clergy be defrocked?
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« Reply #309 on: May 14, 2013, 12:36:00 PM »

If there were an official policy statement issued, that an Orthodox Christian may not marry someone of a different race, would the bishops responsible for drafting this policy be in a category of people who should be deprived of Holy Communion?

Unless you define 'race' in very broad terms, such a policy would make it pretty difficult for converts to get married  Smiley
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« Reply #310 on: May 14, 2013, 12:52:48 PM »

If there were an official policy statement issued, that an Orthodox Christian may not marry someone of a different race, would the bishops responsible for drafting this policy be in a category of people who should be deprived of Holy Communion? Or otherwise disciplined or silenced from having authority in the Church and deciding such questions? Should such clergy be defrocked?

Yes. ASAP. Ride on a wheelboard also seems a nice idea.
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« Reply #311 on: May 14, 2013, 02:06:37 PM »

"Feelings" tend to turn into political viewpoints.  You cannot say that a person has a right to believe a certain way, and then say that he cannot act upon that right.  I find it cute how some people acknowledge that it is a person's "right" to believe that two men should not get married, but to vote against law to allow such is "hatred" (and other issues likewise).  So, if a person does not think that races should mix, should we be at all shocked that he would speak against it?  It is OK to believe but not to speak?

Bigotry is a relatively recently defined term and really has no theological basis unless it involves hatred.  Modern liberals cannot tell the difference between hatred and other emotions since anything that even slightly goes against what the feel good about is hatred.  Rational people, on the other hand,  can differentiate between not wanting your offspring to marry into another social / racial group and shunning them if they do.  There is nothing "non-Canonical" about recognizing that marriage is difficult enough without bringing in other differences and issues.  On the other hand, not accepting a person of another race into your family after the die has been cast is a completely other matter.

Whatever he is, and whatever nonsense he spews out and whatever he purports to be, is not of the same faith and from the same heart as the Orthodox Church in which I was brought up, try to serve faithfully and love. Keeping him in your prayers that he may find the true light is all that one can do.

Theologically, I have not heard him say anything incorrect (though I have only watched a few of his videos). His politics, Jewish conspiracy theories, weird dress, and clownish behaviour is another matter.

This brings up an interesting question. At what point, if any, do extreme political views cross over into being counter to Orthodox Christian teachings.

He may fully understand and believe the Church's teachings on the Trinity and all theological doctrines. But let's hypothesize that he continues to push past his Jewish Conspiracy theories into Racism against Blacks and Hispanics. He is already condemning "Race Mixing". How bigoted can a tonsured person be and still be in communion with The Church?.. I don't know myself but it's an interesting question.

    
You are fogging up the question. People are free to accept or reject other people as friends or into their family via marriage for example. It's a free country. Dislike whomever fails to please you.

On the other hand opposing Racism as a political formulation has nothing to do with "Feelings". It has  divided people in an unhealthy way and has a very sad history in this country. Calling out people like Nathanael who suggest old racist formulations about "Race Mixing" and promotes Anti-Jewish bigotry has concrete justification based on history and long experience with hate mongering in the USA. 

You are not addressing the question at hand which is can you stay in communion with The Church and be an activist for a hate based ideology.
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« Reply #312 on: May 14, 2013, 02:12:08 PM »

Christ is risen!

I have a question for the anti-Br.-Nathanael persons on here (whose opinions I do not automatically dismiss, as I try to keep an open mind).

If there were an official policy statement issued, that an Orthodox Christian may not marry someone of a different race, would the bishops responsible for drafting this policy be in a category of people who should be deprived of Holy Communion? Or otherwise disciplined or silenced from having authority in the Church and deciding such questions? Should such clergy be defrocked?


Interesting queston.. I would say that they have a right to make such a policy if so moved by the Holy Spirit. I would also think it would cause a schism . It is also instructional to note that they have not and would not issue such a decree.

To turn the question around, would the Rocor heirachy every issue a statement in support of Br. Nathanael's various theories..?
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« Reply #313 on: May 14, 2013, 02:22:16 PM »

This is absurdist. The man in question presents himself in clerical garb and thus adds a layer of "office" to his pronouncements. Frankly he can memorize the Rudder and the entire Synodikon of Orthodoxy for all I care, that doesn't make his "orthodoxy" Orthodox. Anti "race mixing", white supremacy beliefs and conspiracy delusions don't mesh with having love in one's heart...you know, the "empty vessel" and all that. I am well aware that some misguided Orthodox seemingly place more emphasis than it warrants on random, non contextual Patristic proof texting in support of this or that theory, but Scripture trumps that as well. I seem to recall learning of Christ's radicalism (NOT contemporary political radicalism but radical in terms of the Temple Judaism of His day) regarding the universal application of His teachings back in my Church School days. You remember...the Samaritan woman, the Good Samaritan, His acceptance of Mary Magdalene and so on. Coupled with St Paul's preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, I fail to understand any canonical context in which the man in question can espouse his views and remain obedient to the Church as a monk, novice or whatever.

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« Reply #314 on: May 14, 2013, 02:38:35 PM »

But quite a few of us do not see it as "hate" based.  As such, he still remains Orthodox.

"Feelings" tend to turn into political viewpoints.  You cannot say that a person has a right to believe a certain way, and then say that he cannot act upon that right.  I find it cute how some people acknowledge that it is a person's "right" to believe that two men should not get married, but to vote against law to allow such is "hatred" (and other issues likewise).  So, if a person does not think that races should mix, should we be at all shocked that he would speak against it?  It is OK to believe but not to speak?

Bigotry is a relatively recently defined term and really has no theological basis unless it involves hatred.  Modern liberals cannot tell the difference between hatred and other emotions since anything that even slightly goes against what the feel good about is hatred.  Rational people, on the other hand,  can differentiate between not wanting your offspring to marry into another social / racial group and shunning them if they do.  There is nothing "non-Canonical" about recognizing that marriage is difficult enough without bringing in other differences and issues.  On the other hand, not accepting a person of another race into your family after the die has been cast is a completely other matter.

Whatever he is, and whatever nonsense he spews out and whatever he purports to be, is not of the same faith and from the same heart as the Orthodox Church in which I was brought up, try to serve faithfully and love. Keeping him in your prayers that he may find the true light is all that one can do.

Theologically, I have not heard him say anything incorrect (though I have only watched a few of his videos). His politics, Jewish conspiracy theories, weird dress, and clownish behaviour is another matter.

This brings up an interesting question. At what point, if any, do extreme political views cross over into being counter to Orthodox Christian teachings.

He may fully understand and believe the Church's teachings on the Trinity and all theological doctrines. But let's hypothesize that he continues to push past his Jewish Conspiracy theories into Racism against Blacks and Hispanics. He is already condemning "Race Mixing". How bigoted can a tonsured person be and still be in communion with The Church?.. I don't know myself but it's an interesting question.

    
You are fogging up the question. People are free to accept or reject other people as friends or into their family via marriage for example. It's a free country. Dislike whomever fails to please you.

On the other hand opposing Racism as a political formulation has nothing to do with "Feelings". It has  divided people in an unhealthy way and has a very sad history in this country. Calling out people like Nathanael who suggest old racist formulations about "Race Mixing" and promotes Anti-Jewish bigotry has concrete justification based on history and long experience with hate mongering in the USA. 

You are not addressing the question at hand which is can you stay in communion with The Church and be an activist for a hate based ideology.
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