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Author Topic: Brother Nathaniel  (Read 29560 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #405 on: July 23, 2013, 10:08:36 AM »

As I understand it, Nathaniel is a layman and last belonged to ROCOR.  I could only speculate on Abp Kyrril's statement regarding Nathaniel having "no relation" to the Western American Diocese of ROCOR.  He could mean that he has no official relation as a member of the clergy or as a registered monastic, as he appears to be, and is merely a layman.  Or, he could mean that while he was received last into ROCOR, he is not regularly receiving the mysteries from, or confessing his sins to, or being guided by, any priest or confessor in ROCOR.  According to the canons, if a person does not attend church for three consecutive weeks, this person has excommunicated himself unless the person could not attend due to sickness or some other adverse circumstance.

It would seem that if Nathaniel truly had "no relation" to ROCOR, then it perhaps be out of place for Abp Kyrril to call on him to refrain from posting on the Internet and to live a life of repentance.  Whatever the status of Nathaniel in ROCOR, its seems that Abp Kyrril recognizes that Nathaniel at least believes that he himself is a member of ROCOR.

I think the content and information provided by Nathaniel has some merit, but it is troubling that it comes from a man falsely posing as a monk of the Orthodox Church.  It is my opinion that he would do best following Abp Kyrril's advice, and that this material which is political in nature be presented instead by a layman who does not think of himself as more than a layman, and who does not claim to speak as an Orthodox Christian.  If Nathaniel wants to be a monk, he should humble himself and become a monk.  If he wants to be a political commentator, he should humble himself and pose simply as a political commentator.    

Quote
Canon 80 of the Sixth Ecumenical Council

In case any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, or anyone else on the list of the Clergy, or any layman, without any graver necessity or any particular difficulty compelling him to absent himself from his own church for a very long time, fails to attend church on Sundays for three consecutive weeks, while living in the city, if he be a Cleric, let him be deposed from office; but if he be a layman, let him be removed from Communion.
 

We clarified this earlier. I also thought he was not really affiliated with Rocor. But when I spoke to Bishop Jerome about him he assured me that he was and that has seen Met Hillarion  commune him personally... Their concern for him is pastoral and they extend mercy to him. That is not to say Rocor endorses his activities. As we can now see they have asked him to stop. Where or how often he communes is unknown, but on a personal basis, as of last year, he was in good standing.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 10:09:03 AM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #406 on: July 23, 2013, 10:32:29 AM »

Quote from: Jonathan Gress link=topic=49713.msg956728#msg956728
You must have missed this thread:
[url
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52520.0.html[/url]
which links to: http://www.synod.com/synod/eng2013/20130719_enkapner.html
The linked statement says that he does not represent the views of the church or belong to that diocese in the west. Two reasons suggest he belongs to ROCOR. First, why would ROCOR feel compelled to disagree with him in a statement if he was not a member of their church? Second, the statement says he does not belong to the western diocese- but what about any other diocese? He came from the east coast, after all.

How much more clarity is needed?

This : "The clergymen and laity of the Russian Church Abroad are hereby informed that the actions of Nathanael (Kapner) do not have the blessing of the Synod of Bishops" came from the Chancery of the ROCOR Synod in New York and was signed by the Secretary of the Synod on official Synodal letterhead.

Perhaps Mor was correct and we need to be more theatrical in such matters a la "Beckett."
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« Reply #407 on: July 23, 2013, 10:36:12 AM »

Quote from: Jonathan Gress link=topic=49713.msg956728#msg956728
You must have missed this thread:
[url
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52520.0.html[/url]
which links to: http://www.synod.com/synod/eng2013/20130719_enkapner.html
The linked statement says that he does not represent the views of the church or belong to that diocese in the west. Two reasons suggest he belongs to ROCOR. First, why would ROCOR feel compelled to disagree with him in a statement if he was not a member of their church? Second, the statement says he does not belong to the western diocese- but what about any other diocese? He came from the east coast, after all.

How much more clarity is needed?

This : "The clergymen and laity of the Russian Church Abroad are hereby informed that the actions of Nathanael (Kapner) do not have the blessing of the Synod of Bishops" came from the Chancery of the ROCOR Synod in New York and was signed by the Secretary of the Synod on official Synodal letterhead.

Perhaps Mor was correct and we need to be more theatrical in such matters a la "Beckett."

THANK YOU!!
Kiss

Now let's see how many folks will continue to insist Nathaniel is kosher. Pun intended.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 10:36:50 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #408 on: July 23, 2013, 11:19:11 AM »

Quote from: Jonathan Gress link=topic=49713.msg956728#msg956728
You must have missed this thread:
[url
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52520.0.html[/url]
which links to: http://www.synod.com/synod/eng2013/20130719_enkapner.html
The linked statement says that he does not represent the views of the church or belong to that diocese in the west. Two reasons suggest he belongs to ROCOR. First, why would ROCOR feel compelled to disagree with him in a statement if he was not a member of their church? Second, the statement says he does not belong to the western diocese- but what about any other diocese? He came from the east coast, after all.

How much more clarity is needed?

This : "The clergymen and laity of the Russian Church Abroad are hereby informed that the actions of Nathanael (Kapner) do not have the blessing of the Synod of Bishops" came from the Chancery of the ROCOR Synod in New York and was signed by the Secretary of the Synod on official Synodal letterhead.

Perhaps Mor was correct and we need to be more theatrical in such matters a la "Beckett."

THANK YOU!!
Kiss

Now let's see how many folks will continue to insist Nathaniel is kosher. Pun intended.

Oh, dear dear, a kashrut monk, whatever next bagels with bacon...?   Kiss
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« Reply #409 on: July 23, 2013, 02:47:54 PM »

As I understand it, Nathaniel is a layman and last belonged to ROCOR.  I could only speculate on Abp Kyrril's statement regarding Nathaniel having "no relation" to the Western American Diocese of ROCOR.  He could mean that he has no official relation as a member of the clergy or as a registered monastic, as he appears to be, and is merely a layman.  Or, he could mean that while he was received last into ROCOR, he is not regularly receiving the mysteries from, or confessing his sins to, or being guided by, any priest or confessor in ROCOR.  According to the canons, if a person does not attend church for three consecutive weeks, this person has excommunicated himself unless the person could not attend due to sickness or some other adverse circumstance.

It would seem that if Nathaniel truly had "no relation" to ROCOR, then it perhaps be out of place for Abp Kyrril to call on him to refrain from posting on the Internet and to live a life of repentance.  Whatever the status of Nathaniel in ROCOR, its seems that Abp Kyrril recognizes that Nathaniel at least believes that he himself is a member of ROCOR.

I think the content and information provided by Nathaniel has some merit, but it is troubling that it comes from a man falsely posing as a monk of the Orthodox Church.  It is my opinion that he would do best following Abp Kyrril's advice, and that this material which is political in nature be presented instead by a layman who does not think of himself as more than a layman, and who does not claim to speak as an Orthodox Christian.  If Nathaniel wants to be a monk, he should humble himself and become a monk.  If he wants to be a political commentator, he should humble himself and pose simply as a political commentator.    

Quote
Canon 80 of the Sixth Ecumenical Council

In case any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, or anyone else on the list of the Clergy, or any layman, without any graver necessity or any particular difficulty compelling him to absent himself from his own church for a very long time, fails to attend church on Sundays for three consecutive weeks, while living in the city, if he be a Cleric, let him be deposed from office; but if he be a layman, let him be removed from Communion.
 


I think you said it perfectly. I always found it strange that Brother Nathaniel never mentioned where he was a monk, though I guessed somewhere in the west like the Pacific Northwest due to the landscape. And if he is intentionally lying there is something malicious to that that gives a lot of discredit to him. Besides, as much as I rant about the Jews among friends and family, I am not sure a monk should be doing so as his main mission since he should be more about prayer and the simplicity of a life dedicated to prayer and work.
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« Reply #410 on: July 23, 2013, 04:18:28 PM »

Brother Nathaniel used to be with Abp Gregory of Colorado, whose history is complicated, but it involved being deposed more than once by different jurisdictions, ultimately leading to him setting up his own vagante jurisdiction. Br Nathaniel later joined ROCOR-MP, although I don't know if he is still with them. He was formerly deeply involved in debates about True Orthodoxy, although disproportionately concerned with gossip and rumors about various clergy rather than issues of faith. The obsession with the Jews came later and I think this is where he started seeing Putin as some anti-Western hero; around that time I think he joined ROCOR-MP.

You must have missed this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52520.0.html

which links to: http://www.synod.com/synod/eng2013/20130719_enkapner.html



I didn't say he was acting with the synod's blessing. That is a separate issue. What is not under dispute is that he did indeed join ROCOR-MP after being in various TO jurisdictions.
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« Reply #411 on: July 23, 2013, 10:43:01 PM »

Brother Nathaniel ... he makes not clear mention of what monastery he is part of. That being said for some reason I do enjoy his videos, though I wonder  if I will continue to watch them. It is not because I think he is an "antisemite" or self-hating Jew--he himself admits he was a Jew, but the self-hating theory has been made against him. I just doubt if he really is a monk for one. His videos have some good points and though they come off a bit strange, I think people are too quick to turn away from that sort of thing in being superficial and not able to look at the depth of a person. That being said a lot of what he said is stuff I already know and is nothing particularly informing. If I do not know the facts from the news or something he might mention, it is nothing suprising. I do think he does a good job of reminding us of the Zionist control of things and I really do not want to get into an argument with people who think this is a conspiracy theory.

I also listen to Alex Jones, who I do not agree with on many issues, particularly his Americanist mindset and his libertarianism. The American founding has many problems in terms of freedom of religion and so forth. I will not get into that here, but libertarianism, appealing as it is, is self-contradicting. It is part of the Enlightenment mindset ...

Alex Jones actually teaches me something, even if I have to stomach his libertarianism and glorifying our Masonic founders. Brother Nathaniel is interesting and charming, but I really do not learn to much form him. So I do not detest him as some seem to do

Bravo.  Good words and a thoughtful post.  
Although I confess I do not regularly watch Brother Nathaniel's videos, I am not offended from those that I have seen.  
Nor do I find what he says to be inaccurate.  He speaks the truth.

http://www.synod.com/synod/eng2013/20130719_enkapner.html
This decree deliberately distances ROCOR from Brother Nathaniel's words and actions, and
the scripture quoted in the decree implies that Brother Nathaniel's words are racist.  
If the disgusting major American media ever connected Brother Nathaniel to ROCOR, then it is conceivable that they would publicly excoriate ROCOR big time.
Frankly, I think Brother Nathaniel is more in accord with the spirit of truth and righteousness than the ROCOR synod.  
ROCOR's condemnation strikes me as motivated for the sake of their public image and worldly reputation and to preempt any media condemnation.
Plainly speaking the truth in the west is politically incorrect, and Brother Nathaniel is paying the price for it.

--------------------------------------------------------

I also concur on Alex Jones.  I do not follow him, and I shook my head and smiled at a few absurdities he has looked into (Obama's alleged communist connection being one of the more daft).  Even if he is occasionally off track, Jone's questioning of the status quo exhibits healthy critical thinking regardless of whether his conservative bias is hip or not with the left.

Wayne Madsen is a muckraker that digs much deeper and lacks Jones's americanist/right of centre bias.
http://www.waynemadsenreport.com

EDIT:
I do think he does a good job of reminding us of the Zionist control of things, and I really do not want to get into an argument with people who think this is a conspiracy theory.
Peace, brother!
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 10:59:24 PM by Dionysii » Logged
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« Reply #412 on: July 23, 2013, 10:53:00 PM »

He was formerly deeply involved in debates about True Orthodoxy, although disproportionately concerned with gossip and rumors about various clergy rather than issues of faith. The obsession with the Jews came later and I think this is where he started seeing Putin as some anti-Western hero; around that time I think he joined ROCOR-MP.

I didn't say he was acting with the synod's blessing. That is a separate issue. What is not under dispute is that he did indeed join ROCOR-MP after being in various TO jurisdictions.

I think you have made a good point that Brother Nathaniel's videos, cultural commentaries, and politics are a separate issue from his particular synod.
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« Reply #413 on: July 23, 2013, 10:53:34 PM »

How is the use of suggestion and innuendo in "accord with the spirit of truth" one wonders.
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« Reply #414 on: July 23, 2013, 11:25:05 PM »

In the last few months I've started viewing the videos of Brother Nathaniel Kapner. I realize that he is a controversial figure, and that he also claims to be an Orthodox brother ( ROCOR I heard).  Is this true?  Does ROCOR actually sanction such a figure  controversial as him.in their monastic ranks?  Or is he more an independent monk?
No. ROCOR has actually issued a resolution condemning his message, and the resolution is signed by Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco. The article is at  http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2013/20130719_enkapner.html. I read some of his content. Turns out he is a nutcase who wears an overlarge pectoral cross, a white skouphos Shocked, and seems to rant about Jews. Be careful about him.   
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« Reply #415 on: July 23, 2013, 11:51:31 PM »

I think it goes deeper than the Jews. I think people need to wake up about the Jews and stop being politically correct and many of his listeners are smart enough to listen to that, just like many of Alex Jones listeners are smart enough to look past his libertarian contradictions of principle. The Jews do have a relatively strong place in things compared to their small population, but it is more than that. Sort of like when Alex Jones talks about certain groups running things it is not a black and white conspiracy with men in secret rooms brainwashing us. I think Brother Nathaniel is useful and enjoyable, but I do admit he overdoes the Jewish thing to the point of not saying much in the end. At least Alex Jones gets to some key issues.
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« Reply #416 on: July 24, 2013, 03:42:07 AM »

I confess I do not regularly watch Brother Nathaniel's videos

To be fair, neither do I follow Abraham Foxman (of the Anti-Defamation League), but I do give him credit for acquiring sobriety over time. 
A time existed not so long ago when the mere mention of Nazi-Zionist cooperation would enrage most pro-Israeli Jews like the ADL or the Simon Wiesenthal Centre.  However, having come to terms with historical facts, Foxman actually came around to acknowledging and even wholeheartedly supporting the 1934 Nazi-Zionist agreement and authored the Afterword to the 25th anniversary edition of Edwin Black's book on the subject 'The Transfer Agreement':
http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=11614
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/289751-1

Unlike Edwin Black who is pro-Israel and thinks highly of the agreement made with the Nazis, Lenni Brenner (a Jewish Marxist) has written books on the same history from a perspective which is critical of the Nazis and the leaders of the Israeli statehood movement. 
http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/mideast/agedict/notice.htm

While I do not concur with condemnations of Brother Nathaniel's videos, by way of constructive criticism, I think that Brother Nathaniel's videos might come off as much more well rounded if he included a few more Jewish as well as leftist sources that consolidated and perhaps even developed his perspective.   

Other considerations of which he is aware and would do well to emphasize a bit more often: 

1) Demons are the enemies at the most fundamental level of conspiracy - not jews who are flesh and blood men just like us. 
2) Biblically, gentile power has ruled the world ever since Nebuchadnezzar conquered Jerusalem and God spake to the Jews through the Prophet Habakkuk saying "Ye are not my people, and I am not your God."  The world is still ruled by gentile power, and no amount of Jewish conspiracy (real or imagined) will change that until the appointed time when the Jews are regathered as outlined by the prophet Ezekiel. 
3) The distinction between Jews and Zionists should be emphasized.  Conservative critics of Zionism particularly come off as racist when they make crudely worded statements about the "Jews" behind a given problem when they could easily be more specific.
4) Many Jews and others consider it hypocritical to criticize the crimes of Israel while looking the other way at the crimes of other states such as Saudi Arabia, Armenia, or Greece among others.  I would agree with that.  We could go into details, but all modern states are evil - not merely Israel.  Saudi Arabia, for example, is easily more barbaric than Israel.  Nationalism and modern statehood is a part of world apostasy. 
5) I rather agree with the Jewish majority who disbelieves theories about Jewish genetics.  in 'War Against the Weak', Edwin Black wrote about the scientistic racist eugenics movement in America and Germany which is the direct father of the modern genetics which is so now touted as an exact and irrefutable science (i.e. DNA) just as eugenics was previously.
http://www.waragainsttheweak.com

I believe that the Protocols of Zion are genuine.  However, once these documents were endorsed as genuine by fascists like Adolf Hitler and Henry Ford, only a maverick anti-capitalist would bother to read them.  Critics of Zionism like Brother Nathaniel would do themselves a favor to become more familiar with the rich literature of the political left against Zionism that is more sophisticated and logical than the bone-headed racial theories of the 1920's that smack of Social Darwinism.
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« Reply #417 on: July 24, 2013, 08:11:02 AM »

3) The distinction between Jews and Zionists should be emphasized.  Conservative critics of Zionism particularly come off as racist when they make crudely worded statements about the "Jews" behind a given problem when they could easily be more specific. 

There is an understandable need to make distinctions to show that one is not against Jews for being Jews; but is rather against certain anti-Christian, criminal, immoral, globalist, terrorist, and genocidal movements led predominantly by Jews and Jewish networks.  However, the Jews vs. Zionists distinction seems inadequate, particularly if the subject is examined historically and globally.  Authors such as E. Michael Jones, for instance, who wrote “The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit: And Its Impact on World History”, speak of the major role of Jews in various revolutionary and anti-Christian movements which pre-dated the Zionist movement.  Winston Churchill spoke of the conflict in his time between Zionist Jews and the Jewish-led movements towards international Communism, including Jewish Bolshevism (http://www.patriot.dk/churchill.html).  Zionism and Jewish Bolshevism are examples of major Jewish movements in our recent history which have had disastrous results, however it would be wrong to lump them both under the label of “Zionism”.   

When one refers to “Zionism”, one is typically referring to the movement which began in the 19th century to establish a nation state for people of Jewish heritage on the territory referred to as the Land of Israel.  “Zionists” are referred to as those Jews who belong to the State of Israel, support the State of Israel, and assist the State of Israel.  Many Zionists, however, occupy positions of economic and political power in governments throughout the world.  Whereas there was conflict prior to the establishment of the State of Israel between Zionists and Jews promoting international Communism, I wonder if these movements have now been combined?  Now that the State of Israel has been established, Zionists seem to be focused on expansion and global domination, both through the State of Israel and through the efforts of Zionists who occupy key positions of power in the US and in other countries.  This expansionist movement may satisfy both the historical Zionists and the objectives of Jewish globalists. 

I say this just to point out the problem with terminology.  Kapner and others point out the major Jewish role in media, politics, banking, social policies, and other movements that one could say tends to further the de-Christianization of society and the globalist objectives which prepare the way for the Antichrist.  To understand this phenomena, however, it is important to look at the subject of Jewish movements historically and globally which are much greater than simply the establishment of a nation state for Jews.  Also, the role of non-Jewish Zionists in serving the aims of Zionist Israel and the objectives of various Jewish movements in society and internationally has to be understood.  In other words, it is a very complex subject that doesn't lend itself to simple distinctions.       
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« Reply #418 on: July 24, 2013, 09:52:10 AM »

I normally wouldn't comment on conspiracy theories or try to persuade the true believers of the logical fallacies underlying all of them.

However, mixing them into Religious Faith is a grave error as the conflation of the two allows God's true enemies to argue effectively with many against religious belief.

Also, the science of genetics is not "pseudo-science" nor does it in any way connect itself to the ideologically motivated, noxious and thoroughly discredited process endorsed by the 20th century totalitarians called "eugenics." Of course since we had a "debate" earlier this year about geocentrism I suppose I should not be surprised.

Non Orthodox need to know that true Faith is not a crazed, anti thinking cult like some portray it to be.

 
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« Reply #419 on: July 24, 2013, 12:32:10 PM »

This is a response from Nathaniel, which he posted on another forum with the words "This Is A Public Statement and May Be Published On All Internet Venues".  So, I post it here for informational purposes:

Quote
In response to Abp Kyrill's `Statement' against me, first of all please SEE:
http://brothernathanaelfoundation.org/about -

"Brother Nathanael is a monastic with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Of
Russia (ROCOR) where he is blessed by Bishop Jerome as a "poslushnik"/"novice"
monk and to pursue a public ministry."

Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco did not censure me for any sin or sins on my
part but rather for exercising my God-given right of freedom of speech.(Please
note that I am a regular communicant in good standing at the Synodal Cathedral
in Manhattan.)

It's one thing for a hierarch to censure a member of the Church for sin but
quite another for a hierarch to attempt to muzzle the mouth of one exposing the
works of darkness.

Abp Kyrill over-stepped his ecclesial bounds with regard to me and the Brother
Nathanael Foundation of which I am responsible to and thus he was out of order.
(I have learned that the majority of the voting bishops knew nothing of the
'statement' until after it was posted.)

And as Abp Kyrill is not my Spiritual Father in no position to know the state of
my soul, he was out-of-order in stating that he deplored the state of my soul.

Thus, I continue my public ministry with a clear conscience, with the
acknowledgment of such by the chief hierarch of ROCOR, (Metropolitan Hilarion),
and most of all, with a strong sense of my calling from Christ, my God and my
Defender.

This Is A Public Statement and May Be Published On All Internet Venues.

+Brother Nathanael Kapner
"Poslushnik"/"Novice" Monk
Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR)
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« Reply #420 on: July 24, 2013, 12:58:00 PM »

Yawn...
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« Reply #421 on: July 24, 2013, 01:13:31 PM »

My feeling was it would not shut him up, and now am sadly proved right. The humility of this guy is one of the most striking aspects of the press release, not!
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« Reply #422 on: July 24, 2013, 01:16:21 PM »

There is an understandable need to make distinctions to show that one is not against Jews for being Jews ...
Smiley
Discerning and charitable words.  Well said.
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« Reply #423 on: July 24, 2013, 01:17:52 PM »

In my country novitiates peel potatoes instead of becoming internet celebrities.
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« Reply #424 on: July 24, 2013, 01:31:40 PM »

In my country novitiates peel potatoes instead of becoming internet celebrities.

Humble and hidden not an actor on a grand stage.........
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« Reply #425 on: July 24, 2013, 01:35:10 PM »

I guess Metropolitan Hilarion needs to come out with a statement now...
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« Reply #426 on: July 24, 2013, 01:41:21 PM »

The Jews do have a relatively strong place in things compared to their small population, ...

  Kapner and others point out the major Jewish role in media, politics, banking, social policies, and other movements ....       

"In Commentary in April 2007, Charles Murray, the coauthor of The Bell Curve (1994), again made the claim that “Jews are smarter” than everyone else (Murray, 2007)."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3190562/

"In the sciences, Jews have won 22 percent of all the Nobel Prizes ever awarded - 29 percent of the prizes since 1950, after the Holocaust destroyed a third of their numbers. Given their small population, Jews should have earned only one of the 502 Nobels awarded for physics, chemistry, medicine and physiology. They have won 123."
http://www.jewishachievement.com/about/about.html

Does the evidence show that Jews are smarter than everyone else?

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« Reply #427 on: July 24, 2013, 01:59:27 PM »

Brother Nathaniel has prudently stated on his homepage that he "speaks and writes as a former Jew--now an Orthodox Christian--and not in any official capacity with ROCOR."
http://brothernathanaelfoundation.org/about

Quote from: Archbishop Kyrill
... the actions of Nathanael (Kapner) do not have the blessing of the Synod of Bishops. ...
+KYRILL,
Archbishop of Western America and San Francisco
Secretary of the Synod of Bishops.
July 17, 2013
http://www.synod.com/synod/eng2013/20130719_enkapner.html

Quote from: jah 777
... I have learned that the majority of the voting bishops knew nothing of the 'statement' until after it was posted. ...
+Brother Nathanael Kapner
According to Brother Nathaniel, Archbishop Kyrill has made a public condemnation of a laymen in the jurisdiction of another bishop while falsely claiming the consent of other bishops who in fact knew nothing about it at the time.  If this is true and consistent with Archbishop Kyrill's character, then it might be revealing to learn more about his history.  
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« Reply #428 on: July 24, 2013, 02:03:46 PM »

"In Commentary in April 2007, Charles Murray, the coauthor of The Bell Curve (1994), again made the claim that “Jews are smarter” than everyone else (Murray, 2007)."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3190562/

Does the evidence show that Jews are smarter than everyone else?
I remember when that particular book, 'The Bell Curve', was published in the 1990's.
I specifically remember that it was widely critiqued and denounced as racist because, among other factors, it used statistics in a biased way to assert that blacks were intellectually inferior.
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« Reply #429 on: July 24, 2013, 02:04:45 PM »

Brother Nathaniel has prudently stated on his homepage that he "speaks and writes as a former Jew--now an Orthodox Christian--and not in any official capacity with ROCOR."
http://brothernathanaelfoundation.org/about

Quote from: Archbishop Kyrill
... the actions of Nathanael (Kapner) do not have the blessing of the Synod of Bishops. ...
+KYRILL,
Archbishop of Western America and San Francisco
Secretary of the Synod of Bishops.
July 17, 2013
http://www.synod.com/synod/eng2013/20130719_enkapner.html

Quote from: jah 777
... I have learned that the majority of the voting bishops knew nothing of the 'statement' until after it was posted. ...
+Brother Nathanael Kapner
According to Brother Nathaniel, Archbishop Kyrill has made a public condemnation of a laymen in the jurisdiction of another bishop while falsely claiming the consent of other bishops who in fact knew nothing about it at the time.  If this is true and consistent with Archbishop Kyrill's character, then it might be revealing to learn more about his history.  

Ummm, if I was a betting man, I would probably take the Archbishop's word over some lunatic running around with his homemade pectoral cross and monk costume he bought online.
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« Reply #430 on: July 24, 2013, 02:15:38 PM »

"In Commentary in April 2007, Charles Murray, the coauthor of The Bell Curve (1994), again made the claim that “Jews are smarter” than everyone else (Murray, 2007)."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3190562/

Endorsing Racism: The Story of The Bell Curve
By Aaron Swartz
http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/shifting3
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« Reply #431 on: July 24, 2013, 04:18:04 PM »

The Jews do have a relatively strong place in things compared to their small population, ...

  Kapner and others point out the major Jewish role in media, politics, banking, social policies, and other movements ....       

"In Commentary in April 2007, Charles Murray, the coauthor of The Bell Curve (1994), again made the claim that “Jews are smarter” than everyone else (Murray, 2007)."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3190562/

"In the sciences, Jews have won 22 percent of all the Nobel Prizes ever awarded - 29 percent of the prizes since 1950, after the Holocaust destroyed a third of their numbers. Given their small population, Jews should have earned only one of the 502 Nobels awarded for physics, chemistry, medicine and physiology. They have won 123."
http://www.jewishachievement.com/about/about.html

Does the evidence show that Jews are smarter than everyone else?

I've said multiple times that the Jews were smarter than white people, but I generally just do this to poke fun at people making certain anti-Zionist or anti-Jewish claims. In reality I very much doubt there is much difference in terms of genetics. As I said recently (in this thread? I don't recall)  it's about culture (or subculture, or whatever). 
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« Reply #432 on: July 24, 2013, 04:24:42 PM »

This is a response from Nathaniel, which he posted on another forum with the words "This Is A Public Statement and May Be Published On All Internet Venues".  So, I post it here for informational purposes:

Quote
In response to Abp Kyrill's `Statement' against me, first of all please SEE:
http://brothernathanaelfoundation.org/about -

"Brother Nathanael is a monastic with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Of
Russia (ROCOR) where he is blessed by Bishop Jerome as a "poslushnik"/"novice"
monk and to pursue a public ministry."

Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco did not censure me for any sin or sins on my
part but rather for exercising my God-given right of freedom of speech.(Please
note that I am a regular communicant in good standing at the Synodal Cathedral
in Manhattan.)

It's one thing for a hierarch to censure a member of the Church for sin but
quite another for a hierarch to attempt to muzzle the mouth of one exposing the
works of darkness.

Abp Kyrill over-stepped his ecclesial bounds with regard to me and the Brother
Nathanael Foundation of which I am responsible to and thus he was out of order.
(I have learned that the majority of the voting bishops knew nothing of the
'statement' until after it was posted.)

And as Abp Kyrill is not my Spiritual Father in no position to know the state of
my soul, he was out-of-order in stating that he deplored the state of my soul.

Thus, I continue my public ministry with a clear conscience, with the
acknowledgment of such by the chief hierarch of ROCOR, (Metropolitan Hilarion),
and most of all, with a strong sense of my calling from Christ, my God and my
Defender.

This Is A Public Statement and May Be Published On All Internet Venues.

+Brother Nathanael Kapner
"Poslushnik"/"Novice" Monk
Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR)

I have looked on his website and this missive is not to be found there....
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« Reply #433 on: July 24, 2013, 04:49:17 PM »

The Jews do have a relatively strong place in things compared to their small population, ...

  Kapner and others point out the major Jewish role in media, politics, banking, social policies, and other movements ....       

"In Commentary in April 2007, Charles Murray, the coauthor of The Bell Curve (1994), again made the claim that “Jews are smarter” than everyone else (Murray, 2007)."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3190562/

"In the sciences, Jews have won 22 percent of all the Nobel Prizes ever awarded - 29 percent of the prizes since 1950, after the Holocaust destroyed a third of their numbers. Given their small population, Jews should have earned only one of the 502 Nobels awarded for physics, chemistry, medicine and physiology. They have won 123."
http://www.jewishachievement.com/about/about.html

Does the evidence show that Jews are smarter than everyone else?

I've said multiple times that the Jews were smarter than white people, but I generally just do this to poke fun at people making certain anti-Zionist or anti-Jewish claims. In reality I very much doubt there is much difference in terms of genetics. As I said recently (in this thread? I don't recall)  it's about culture (or subculture, or whatever). 
So Jews are smarter than everyone else, but this is not due to genetics, but to the Jewish culture?
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« Reply #434 on: July 24, 2013, 04:50:16 PM »

This is a response from Nathaniel, which he posted on another forum with the words "This Is A Public Statement and May Be Published On All Internet Venues".  So, I post it here for informational purposes:

Quote
In response to Abp Kyrill's `Statement' against me, first of all please SEE:
http://brothernathanaelfoundation.org/about -

"Brother Nathanael is a monastic with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Of
Russia (ROCOR) where he is blessed by Bishop Jerome as a "poslushnik"/"novice"
monk and to pursue a public ministry."

Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco did not censure me for any sin or sins on my
part but rather for exercising my God-given right of freedom of speech.(Please
note that I am a regular communicant in good standing at the Synodal Cathedral
in Manhattan.)

It's one thing for a hierarch to censure a member of the Church for sin but
quite another for a hierarch to attempt to muzzle the mouth of one exposing the
works of darkness.

Abp Kyrill over-stepped his ecclesial bounds with regard to me and the Brother
Nathanael Foundation of which I am responsible to and thus he was out of order.
(I have learned that the majority of the voting bishops knew nothing of the
'statement' until after it was posted.)

And as Abp Kyrill is not my Spiritual Father in no position to know the state of
my soul, he was out-of-order in stating that he deplored the state of my soul.

Thus, I continue my public ministry with a clear conscience, with the
acknowledgment of such by the chief hierarch of ROCOR, (Metropolitan Hilarion),
and most of all, with a strong sense of my calling from Christ, my God and my
Defender.

This Is A Public Statement and May Be Published On All Internet Venues.

+Brother Nathanael Kapner
"Poslushnik"/"Novice" Monk
Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR)

I have looked on his website and this missive is not to be found there....

It is on another site, "The Jews Who Rule America" - http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=836#comment-1458395
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« Reply #435 on: July 24, 2013, 04:52:29 PM »

I wouldn't guess that Jews are actually smarter, just that they come from a background that pushes them to excel, and so more of them do so. They are pressured to "make something of themselves," so many do.
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« Reply #436 on: July 24, 2013, 04:53:53 PM »

This is a response from Nathaniel, which he posted on another forum with the words "This Is A Public Statement and May Be Published On All Internet Venues".  So, I post it here for informational purposes:

Quote
In response to Abp Kyrill's `Statement' against me, first of all please SEE:
http://brothernathanaelfoundation.org/about -

"Brother Nathanael is a monastic with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Of
Russia (ROCOR) where he is blessed by Bishop Jerome as a "poslushnik"/"novice"
monk and to pursue a public ministry."

Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco did not censure me for any sin or sins on my
part but rather for exercising my God-given right of freedom of speech.(Please
note that I am a regular communicant in good standing at the Synodal Cathedral
in Manhattan.)

It's one thing for a hierarch to censure a member of the Church for sin but
quite another for a hierarch to attempt to muzzle the mouth of one exposing the
works of darkness.

Abp Kyrill over-stepped his ecclesial bounds with regard to me and the Brother
Nathanael Foundation of which I am responsible to and thus he was out of order.
(I have learned that the majority of the voting bishops knew nothing of the
'statement' until after it was posted.)

And as Abp Kyrill is not my Spiritual Father in no position to know the state of
my soul, he was out-of-order in stating that he deplored the state of my soul.

Thus, I continue my public ministry with a clear conscience, with the
acknowledgment of such by the chief hierarch of ROCOR, (Metropolitan Hilarion),
and most of all, with a strong sense of my calling from Christ, my God and my
Defender.

This Is A Public Statement and May Be Published On All Internet Venues.

+Brother Nathanael Kapner
"Poslushnik"/"Novice" Monk
Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR)

I have looked on his website and this missive is not to be found there....

It is on another site, "The Jews Who Rule America" - http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=836#comment-1458395

Thank you very much for the information....
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« Reply #437 on: July 24, 2013, 05:02:36 PM »

I've said multiple times that the Jews were smarter than white people, but I generally just do this to poke fun at people making certain anti-Zionist or anti-Jewish claims. In reality I very much doubt there is much difference in terms of genetics. As I said recently (in this thread? I don't recall)  it's about culture (or subculture, or whatever). 

They say Ashkenazi ladies have a genetic predisposition to breast cancer, whereas the males are predisposed to conditions like diabetes IIRC. I guess the gene that makes them smarter (if there is one) ought to compensate for all that.
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« Reply #438 on: July 24, 2013, 05:11:15 PM »

I wouldn't guess that Jews are actually smarter, just that they come from a background that pushes them to excel, and so more of them do so. They are pressured to "make something of themselves," so many do.

Jews were banned from owning land in many countries. Land was what conferred wealth. Then times changed. Jews had acquired the education and skills that made them more valuable in a urbanized society. Also, "Study" is considered a religious endeavor. Not much use on the farm but a very useful emphasis today.

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« Reply #439 on: July 24, 2013, 05:56:05 PM »

I've said multiple times that the Jews were smarter than white people ...

They say Ashkenazi ladies have a genetic predisposition to ...
I consider all the racial genetic theory as so much rubbish. 
Ph.D's and MD's talking about DNA fabricate whatever history they want ignoring inconvenient contradictory historical records.   

I agree with Arthur Koestler's contention that the Ashkenazi Jews are Japhetic (non-Semitic) Europeans who in contradistinction to many Eastern and Sephardic Jews lack any descent from biblical Jews other than perhaps their religion. 
The historical origin of Ashkenazi Jewry is the Japhetic (non-Semitic) people of Poland and Russia (including Scythians and many others) who converted to Judaism during the Khazar Empire.

The Thirteenth Tribe: The Khazar Empire and Its Heritage
By Arthur Koestler
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm

The Japhetic origin of Ashkenazi Jewry under the Khazar Empire is no different than the ancestors of Bosnians, Albanians, and Anatolian muslims who converted to Islam during the Ottoman period.
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« Reply #440 on: July 24, 2013, 06:11:01 PM »

I've said multiple times that the Jews were smarter than white people

I approach the history of the world from the biblical division of seventy-two nations from the three sons of Noah. 
The Panarion of Saint Epiphanios of Cyprus listed and summarized the histories of these nations with the conclusion that the most ancient and authentic Christian tradition reckons only two races of men: the righteous and the wicked.

The concept of a "white" race evidently originates from europe's so-called enlightenment of the eighteenth century. 

'The Invention of the White Race'
By Theodore Allen
http://clogic.eserver.org/1-2/allen.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/05/21/the-invention-of-the-white-race/
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« Reply #441 on: July 24, 2013, 06:18:26 PM »

Nah...
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 06:18:37 PM by Asteriktos » Logged
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« Reply #442 on: July 24, 2013, 06:26:19 PM »

I've said multiple times that the Jews were smarter than white people ...

They say Ashkenazi ladies have a genetic predisposition to ...
I consider all the racial genetic theory as so much rubbish. 
Ph.D's and MD's talking about DNA fabricate whatever history they want ignoring inconvenient contradictory historical records.   

I agree with Arthur Koestler's contention that the Ashkenazi Jews are Japhetic (non-Semitic) Europeans who in contradistinction to many Eastern and Sephardic Jews lack any descent from biblical Jews other than perhaps their religion. 
The historical origin of Ashkenazi Jewry is the Japhetic (non-Semitic) people of Poland and Russia (including Scythians and many others) who converted to Judaism during the Khazar Empire.

The Thirteenth Tribe: The Khazar Empire and Its Heritage
By Arthur Koestler
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm

The Japhetic origin of Ashkenazi Jewry under the Khazar Empire is no different than the ancestors of Bosnians, Albanians, and Anatolian muslims who converted to Islam during the Ottoman period.

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« Reply #443 on: July 24, 2013, 07:13:58 PM »

I've said multiple times that the Jews were smarter than white people ...

They say Ashkenazi ladies have a genetic predisposition to ...
I consider all the racial genetic theory as so much rubbish. 
Ph.D's and MD's talking about DNA fabricate whatever history they want ignoring inconvenient contradictory historical records.   

I agree with Arthur Koestler's contention that the Ashkenazi Jews are Japhetic (non-Semitic) Europeans who in contradistinction to many Eastern and Sephardic Jews lack any descent from biblical Jews other than perhaps their religion. 
The historical origin of Ashkenazi Jewry is the Japhetic (non-Semitic) people of Poland and Russia (including Scythians and many others) who converted to Judaism during the Khazar Empire.

The Thirteenth Tribe: The Khazar Empire and Its Heritage
By Arthur Koestler
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm

The Japhetic origin of Ashkenazi Jewry under the Khazar Empire is no different than the ancestors of Bosnians, Albanians, and Anatolian muslims who converted to Islam during the Ottoman period.

Been debunked, time and again. In a World of sophisticated DNA testing it's getting more difficult to get away with these tired old anti-Semitic myths.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/12/28/haaretz-resurrects-the-khazar-jews-theory/
 

Every number of years the theory is advanced that the Jews of Europe are actually descendants of the Khazar kingdom, a mostly Turkic people whose king and nobility converted to Judaism in the early eighth century, allowing them to become a buffer state between Islam and Christendom.

When the Khazar kingdom collapsed in the 13th century, according to the believers in the Khazar theory, its population fled into Eastern Europe and served as the core of European Jewry

In his monumental work, “Arab Attitudes to Israel,” written in the early 1970s, Professor Yehoshafat Harkabi described the Khazar theory as one of the arguments marshaled in the Arab world to assert that the Jews of the modern period were not the descendents of the biblical of children of Israel and hence had no historical right to recover their land. This position is also voiced in the Palestinian media today.

For example, Jarir al-Qidwa, who was an educational adviser to Yasser Arafat and later chairman of the Palestinian Authority Public Library, appeared on PA television on August 2, 2004 and explained that the original Jews of the biblical period were dispersed among the nations and that it was the “Khazar Jews who live in Palestine today.” Prominent voices within the Muslim Brotherhood have also advanced the idea that modern Jews are descendants of the Khazars, as well.

The Khazar theory was strange. If only a small number of Khazars in the court of their king converted to Judaism, then how could they become the basis for the masses of European Jewry? Arab historians in the 10th century reported that most of the Khazars were Muslims, in any case.

...there is another side to what genetics tell us about the origins of European Jews. It refers to the work of Professor Harry Ostrer, who is the author of “The Genetic History of the Jews,” a new book also published this year by Oxford University Press. Looking at his credentials, his work should have been at the top of the story. Ostrer served as the director of the Human Genetics Program at New York University School of Medicine, where he worked for more than two decades. Today he is head of genetic testing at Albert Einstein College of Medicine. Unlike Elhaik, he does not accept the argument that European Jewry comes from Central Asia but rather he says that Jews around the world can trace their genetic history to the Middle East 2,000 years ago. 

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« Reply #444 on: July 24, 2013, 07:28:45 PM »

I think the British fertility expert, Professor Robert Winston, would site his own ancestry as demonstrated by genetic testing as clearly indicating his Jewish roots go back to a Semitic origin rather than Khazar one.

This I recall from a television broadcast in which Professor Winston used his own genetic history to illustrate what it may reveal but also it's limitations.
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« Reply #445 on: July 24, 2013, 07:41:33 PM »

I think the British fertility expert, Professor Robert Winston, would site his own ancestry as demonstrated by genetic testing as clearly indicating his Jewish roots go back to a Semitic origin rather than Khazar one.

This I recall from a television broadcast in which Professor Winston used his own genetic history to illustrate what it may reveal but also it's limitations.

Only a small layer of Khazar nobility converted. The rest of the people were Muslim by the 10th century. Just the shear numbers don't add up. Not enough Khazars converted to replace or supplant all the Jews descended from Ancient times..
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« Reply #446 on: July 24, 2013, 07:54:31 PM »

Only a small layer of Khazar nobility converted. The rest of the people were Muslim by the 10th century.
The 10th century Persian historian Ibn al-Faqih wrote  that all the Khazars were Jews.
http://www.radioislam.org/islam/english/toread/khazar-q.htm
http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-quotes.html
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story800.html
http://books.google.com/books?id=hEuIveNl9kcC&pg=PA110&lpg=PA110&dq=Ibn+al-Faqih++all+khazars+are+jews&source=bl&ots=DIFxc8KeWv&sig=1JwARw7H0XxNOHE-UFBMuDgZlm0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8WrwUY_lIc-vigLml4CgCg&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Ibn%20al-Faqih%20%20all%20khazars%20are%20jews&f=false
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« Reply #447 on: July 24, 2013, 09:45:59 PM »


Guess again:
     

At some point in the last decades of the 8th century or the early 9th century, the Khazar royalty and nobility converted to Judaism, and part of the general population may have followed.[99] The extent of the conversion is debated. The 10th century Persian historian Ibn al-Faqih reported that "all the Khazars are Jews." Notwithstanding this statement, most scholars believe that only the upper classes converted to Judaism;[100] there is some support for this in contemporary Muslim texts.[101]

Contemporary historians provided much detail about the religion and daily life of Khazars. One of the most detailed descriptions of Khazars came from Arab historian Ahmed ibn Fadlan, who traveled to Khazaria in 922 as the emissary of the Baghdad caliph. According to his account the majority of Khazars were Muslims and Christians, while the Jewish population represented a minority in the kingdom. According to ibn Fadlan, contrary to non-Jewish Khazars, the king and his royal court were Jewish. Ibn Fadlan claimed that 100,000 Muslims lived in Khazaria, and thirty mosques were established there. He also described a strong pagan community consisting mostly of Slavic peoples. Regarding governance, Ibn Fadlan wrote that judges were elected equally from Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and Pagan communities.[102] Dmitry Vasilyev, a professor at Astrakhan State University who excavated sites associated with Khazars, states that after the fall of the Khazar empire, "Khazars were slowly assimilated by Turkic-speaking tribes, Tatars and Mongols."[103]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars
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« Reply #448 on: July 24, 2013, 10:00:56 PM »

Been debunked, time and again. In a World of sophisticated DNA testing it's getting more difficult to get away with these tired old anti-Semitic myths.

That the Ashkenazi Jews are primarily descendents of people who converted to Judaism during the Khazar centuries has been a well known historic fact continually attested to by historians for centuries regardless of whether one is either sympathetic or antipathetic to the Jews.  The modern DNA theories are the eugenics and Nazi oriented pseudoscience that are irrelevant to history.

Only a small layer of Khazar nobility converted. The rest of the people were Muslim by the 10th century.


That's absurd and indicates you don't know what you're talking about so well.  What historian says that?   
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« Reply #449 on: July 24, 2013, 10:22:15 PM »

Been debunked, time and again. In a World of sophisticated DNA testing it's getting more difficult to get away with these tired old anti-Semitic myths.

That the Ashkenazi Jews are primarily descendents of people who converted to Judaism during the Khazar centuries has been a well known historic fact continually attested to by historians for centuries regardless of whether one is either sympathetic or antipathetic to the Jews.  The modern DNA theories are the eugenics and Nazi oriented pseudoscience that are irrelevant to history.

Only a small layer of Khazar nobility converted. The rest of the people were Muslim by the 10th century.


That's absurd and indicates you don't know what you're talking about so well.  What historian says that?  

The myth that modern Jews are really Khazars fails at ever point. Most scholars dismiss it out of hand..Catch up

The written accounts from the 10th century clearly indicate that only the nobility converted and just a small layer of the population. The majority of Khazars were Muslims, Christians and Pagan...

If there were so many Khazar converts that they totally overwhelmed the Jewish Population and subsumed them, their language would have left some trace. But rather Yiddish became the spoken language of Jews in Europe not Turkic..

This is an important fabrication for Anti-Semites. It is patently false and has little real evidence to back it up.. It's nonsense.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 10:24:33 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Tags: Nathanael Kapner Br.(sic) Nathanael 
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