Topic: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

If you are celebrating the Jewish services of Passover and the like, you are choosing to do something that is a foreshadowing of the fulfillment in the Orthodox church. Why would you desire to do something halfway, when you can do it fully? Simply because you have a romantic love for Judaism?

The early church observed Passover as did the Apostles even after Christ's death. There is nothing wrong with it, unless you think what they did was wrong in some way.

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Both Fr. Aleksandr and Fr. Bernstein view Orthodoxy as the fulfillment of Judaism rather than a replacement. Neither one of them would view Jewish practices as superior to Orthodox practices. From how you write on this issue, it seems that you view Jewish practices as superior/preferable to Orthodox practices.

I also agree with them...fulfillment.  I don't think they are better, just compatible.

[Quinault]

You can't do them both. It has to be one or the other. The Passover meal can't be served during Holy Week since we *fast* during Holy Week.

[Quinault]

OK, I get it. You are just entranced with Judaism and want to find a way to have your menorah and your icons too. The problem being that a menorah isn't just a candleholder, and an icon isn't just a picture on the wall. By attempting to do both, you demean them both. It's a real shame actually. And for all the respect for the various Orthodox and Jewish priests you claim to have, you certainly stomp on their beliefs without thought....

[Quinault]

Both Fr. Aleksandr and Fr. Bernstein view Orthodoxy as the fulfillment of Judaism rather than a replacement. Neither one of them would view Jewish practices as superior to Orthodox practices. From how you write on this issue, it seems that you view Jewish practices as superior/preferable to Orthodox practices.

I also agree with them...fulfillment.  I don't think they are better, just compatible.

No, not compatible. You can't claim to know how to ride a bicycle without training wheels, then keep the training wheels on. It is one or the other; either you ride with the training wheels, or you ride without them-not both.

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You can't do them both. It has to be one or the other. The Passover meal can't be served during Holy Week since we *fast* during Holy Week.

Sure you can. We do it in Church on Holy Thursday.  BTW, fasting is optional in Orthodoxy.

[Quinault]

Does your priest know that you prefer to celebrate the Jewish feasts over the Orthodox ones?

[Quinault]

You can't do them both. It has to be one or the other. The Passover meal can't be served during Holy Week since we *fast* during Holy Week.

Sure you can. We do it in Church on Holy Thursday.  BTW, fasting is optional in Orthodoxy.

OK, not going to touch that with a 10 foot pole other than to say; wait....waah?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Both Fr. Aleksandr and Fr. Bernstein view Orthodoxy as the fulfillment of Judaism rather than a replacement. Neither one of them would view Jewish practices as superior to Orthodox practices. From how you write on this issue, it seems that you view Jewish practices as superior/preferable to Orthodox practices.

I also agree with them...fulfillment.  I don't think they are better, just compatible.

No, not compatible. You can't claim to know how to ride a bicycle without training wheels, then keep the training wheels on. It is one or the other; either you ride with the training wheels, or you ride without them-not both.

I don't think you understand. If you did you would not be saying what you are.  You are saying what the Apostles did was wrong then because they did as Yeshua taught them. Polycarp, who was taught under St John observed it because St John taught him to. Polycarp followed the Eastern practice of celebrating Passover on the 14th of Nisan, the day of the Jewish Passover, regardless of what day of the week it fell.  

[Quinault]

I don't think you understand, you are claiming that the Jewish Orthodox priests that choose not to celebrate the Jewish feasts over the Orthodox feasts are somehow incorrect or missing out. By encouraging others to celebrate these feasts, and saying they should be celebrated concurrently (which they can't BTW) you are claiming your way is better.

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Does your priest know that you prefer to celebrate the Jewish feasts over the Orthodox ones?

Why do you continually run in circles.  You cant say that Orthodox feast have nothing to do with the original Jewish feasts they came from. They are fulfillments of the Jewish feasts...how many times must I repeat this?

[Quinault]

How exactly do you go directly from the Holy Thursday services, to a Passover service? How can you do them concurrently? Do you take the meal into the services with you?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I don't think you understand, you are claiming that the Jewish Orthodox priests that choose not to celebrate the Jewish feasts over the Orthodox feasts are somehow incorrect or missing out. By encouraging others to celebrate these feasts, and saying they should be celebrated concurrently (which they can't BTW) you are claiming your way is better.

I never said that! If they do not want to that is up to them. You see, this is what is happening. I said 2+2 =4. You say, why do you keep saying 2+2=50.  I say, I didn't. You say, does your priest know that you think 2+2=50? I say, I never said that, you said I said that. Then you say, well you cant believe 2+2=4 AND 2+2=50, you must choose one!

[Quinault]

Do you just think the Passover meal is niffty and eat it whenever you want? Because I am pretty positive that both the Holy Thursday services, and the Passover services have specific times of day in which they are to be celebrated.

[Quinault]

Let's see; if I attend the Holy Thursday services at my parish I am there from 3pm until about 10pm. There is a little break of about 45 minutes in the afternoon, is that when I should celebrate Passover?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

How exactly do you go directly from the Holy Thursday services, to a Passover service? How can you do them concurrently? Do you take the meal into the services with you?

http://www.stgeorgegreenville.org/OurFaith/Holy%20Week/HolyWeek.html

Passover occurs just after sundown.  They do not conflict.

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Let's see; if I attend the Holy Thursday services at my parish I am there from 3pm until about 10pm. There is a little break of about 45 minutes in the afternoon, is that when I should celebrate Passover?

3PM to 10PM? What are you doing?

[Quinault]

We have vigil, the passion gospels, and carrying of the cross thursday at sunset which takes about 3 hours.

[Quinault]

Washing of feet is at 3pm. That could be moved to the morning, but it wouldn't change the fact that the evening services conflict with any Passover services. We have an afternoon service so people can get off work to attend.

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

We have vigil, the passion gospels, and carrying of the cross thursday at sunset which takes about 3 hours.

What do you do the other 4 hrs? You said 3 PM to 10 PM...

[Quinault]

3-5:15 service
6-9-ish service

The 10 pm was factoring in commute for us. But even if I lived next door to the parish, I couldn't possibly have a Passover meal at the right time. Vigil of Holy Friday is Holy Thursday evening.

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

3-5:15 service
6-9-ish service

The 10 pm was factoring in commute for us. But even if I lived next door to the parish, I couldn't possibly have a Passover meal at the right time. Vigil of Holy Friday is Holy Thursday evening.

http://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/worship/the-church-year/holy-thursday

[Quinault]

You said you are cradle Orthodox. You know that the liturgical day starts at sunset. What are you confused by?

[SolEX01]

You can't do them both. It has to be one or the other. The Passover meal can't be served during Holy Week since we *fast* during Holy Week.

Sure you can. We do it in Church on Holy Thursday.  BTW, fasting is optional in Orthodoxy.

Jesus in the desert had the same choice we did which is why we commemorate the Great Lent which has no analog in Judaism.

http://www.howtofast.net/spiritual/judaism.html

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You said you are cradle Orthodox. You know that the liturgical day starts at sunset. What are you confused by?

I am not confused by anything...

[Quinault]

If vigil (not lamentations the next night) starts sunset on Holy Thursday, and Passover has to be celebrated at sunset on that same day; how exactly can you celebrate both?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You can't do them both. It has to be one or the other. The Passover meal can't be served during Holy Week since we *fast* during Holy Week.

Sure you can. We do it in Church on Holy Thursday.  BTW, fasting is optional in Orthodoxy.

I'm not going to say that you're right other than to say that one can choose to fast or not to fast.  Jesus in the desert had the same choice we did which is why we commemorate the Great Lent which has no analog in Judaism.

http://www.howtofast.net/spiritual/judaism.html

Fasting in Orthodoxy is a tool. The Tradition of the Church has always seen fasting as only a tool to combat the passions and to open the door to the renewal of the Holy Spirit: beyond this higher purpose it has no value.

[SolEX01]

You can't do them both. It has to be one or the other. The Passover meal can't be served during Holy Week since we *fast* during Holy Week.

Sure you can. We do it in Church on Holy Thursday.  BTW, fasting is optional in Orthodoxy.

I'm not going to say that you're right other than to say that one can choose to fast or not to fast.  Jesus in the desert had the same choice we did which is why we commemorate the Great Lent which has no analog in Judaism.

http://www.howtofast.net/spiritual/judaism.html

Fasting in Orthodoxy is a tool. The Tradition of the Church has always seen fasting as only a tool to combat the passions and to open the door to the renewal of the Holy Spirit: beyond this higher purpose it has no value.

There's no concept of humility.  No self-denial?  No ascetics?  Eat lamb on Holy Thursday (even though sundown Holy Thursday = Holy Friday on the liturgical calendar) because that is the Passover meal?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You can't do them both. It has to be one or the other. The Passover meal can't be served during Holy Week since we *fast* during Holy Week.

Sure you can. We do it in Church on Holy Thursday.  BTW, fasting is optional in Orthodoxy.

I'm not going to say that you're right other than to say that one can choose to fast or not to fast.  Jesus in the desert had the same choice we did which is why we commemorate the Great Lent which has no analog in Judaism.

http://www.howtofast.net/spiritual/judaism.html

Fasting in Orthodoxy is a tool. The Tradition of the Church has always seen fasting as only a tool to combat the passions and to open the door to the renewal of the Holy Spirit: beyond this higher purpose it has no value.

There's no concept of humility.  No self-denial?  No ascetics?  Eat lamb on Holy Thursday (even though sundown Holy Thursday = Holy Friday on the liturgical calendar) because that is the Passover meal?

Who said anything about eating lamb? The lambs were not even sacrificed yet and there was no lamb at the last supper...

[Quinault]

Are you really confused about the lamb? Do you even know what foods are served at the Passover meal?

[SolEX01]

You can't do them both. It has to be one or the other. The Passover meal can't be served during Holy Week since we *fast* during Holy Week.

Sure you can. We do it in Church on Holy Thursday.  BTW, fasting is optional in Orthodoxy.

I'm not going to say that you're right other than to say that one can choose to fast or not to fast.  Jesus in the desert had the same choice we did which is why we commemorate the Great Lent which has no analog in Judaism.

http://www.howtofast.net/spiritual/judaism.html

Fasting in Orthodoxy is a tool. The Tradition of the Church has always seen fasting as only a tool to combat the passions and to open the door to the renewal of the Holy Spirit: beyond this higher purpose it has no value.

There's no concept of humility.  No self-denial?  No ascetics?  Eat lamb on Holy Thursday (even though sundown Holy Thursday = Holy Friday on the liturgical calendar) because that is the Passover meal?

Who said anything about eating lamb?

Whatever is eaten at the passover meal - beef brisket, turkey, chicken

http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm

Didn't the children of Israel eat lamb and unleavened bread before the first born of the Egyptians were killed: Exodus 12:21-28

[Quinault]

Here's the "dummies" version:
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/the-symbolic-foods-at-a-passover-seder.html

[Quinault]

Or is this more like your passover meal, with beets instead of a bone?
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/03/22/a-vegan-passover/

[dcommini]

I'm still trying to figure out how my thread on a simple question that wasn't even a page long a month ago has now turned into this discussion that is 4 pages long in just a matter of a few days...

[Quinault]

In my view, it turned into a discussion when someone suggested that you use the tallit for prayer.

[Quinault]

I recall at my cousin's deathbed that his mother and her other friends were parading around praying wearing tallitot. (holding them out like butterfly wings and dancing for some reason unknown to me) They were convinced that if they prayed hard enough while wearing them, he would be healed of his skin cancer. Apparently it didn't occur to them that *treating* his skin cancer years before when he was diagnosed would have been a better idea. They had their own little Messianic Jewish home church, and they "believed" that my cousin would be cured. He died the next day. I was there when they were starting the prayer service. My aunt knew I was Orthodox. Her friends just knew I had a very Jewish name. They essentially accused me as being the reason my cousin wasn't healed. I didn't "believe" thus God wouldn't heal my cousin.

Needless to say, I find people co-opting items from the various cultures/religions they like extremely offensive. Judaism is an fascinating religion/culture. There is much to be learned from it. But just because I like the beauty and idea of a Mezuzah, doesn't mean I will be putting one on/in my house.

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I recall at my cousin's deathbed that his mother and her other friends were parading around praying wearing tallitot. (holding them out like butterfly wings and dancing for some reason unknown to me) They were convinced that if they prayed hard enough while wearing them, he would be healed of his skin cancer. Apparently it didn't occur to them that *treating* his skin cancer years before when he was diagnosed would have been a better idea. They had their own little Messianic Jewish home church, and they "believed" that my cousin would be cured. He died the next day. I was there when they were starting the prayer service. My aunt knew I was Orthodox. Her friends just knew I had a very Jewish name. They essentially accused me as being the reason my cousin wasn't healed. I didn't "believe" thus God wouldn't heal my cousin.

Needless to say, I find people co-opting items from the various cultures/religions they like extremely offensive. Judaism is an fascinating religion/culture. There is much to be learned from it. But just because I like the beauty and idea of a Mezuzah, doesn't mean I will be putting one on/in my house.

I understand what you are saying. However, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Don't condemn and judge others (even through it is human nature) just because you had a bad experience, others may not have had that same bad experience. I do believe miracles can happen even in Orthodoxy.  However, they happen when they happen for reasons we can't understand.  it was very wrong for them to blame you IMO.

[Cyrillic]

YESHUA

Not this again 

Please, stop pretending that you're a Jew.

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You can't do them both. It has to be one or the other. The Passover meal can't be served during Holy Week since we *fast* during Holy Week.

Sure you can. We do it in Church on Holy Thursday.  BTW, fasting is optional in Orthodoxy.

I'm not going to say that you're right other than to say that one can choose to fast or not to fast.  Jesus in the desert had the same choice we did which is why we commemorate the Great Lent which has no analog in Judaism.

http://www.howtofast.net/spiritual/judaism.html

Fasting in Orthodoxy is a tool. The Tradition of the Church has always seen fasting as only a tool to combat the passions and to open the door to the renewal of the Holy Spirit: beyond this higher purpose it has no value.

There's no concept of humility.  No self-denial?  No ascetics?  Eat lamb on Holy Thursday (even though sundown Holy Thursday = Holy Friday on the liturgical calendar) because that is the Passover meal?

Who said anything about eating lamb?

Whatever is eaten at the passover meal - beef brisket, turkey, chicken

http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm

Didn't the children of Israel eat lamb and unleavened bread before the first born of the Egyptians were killed: Exodus 12:21-28

I know what traditional Jews eat at a Passover seder. However, my focus is on what Yeshua did.  It is a new covenant.  

"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband unto them, says the Lord'"

"For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night (at sunset was the start of the fourteenth day of the first month) in which he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat, this is my body, which is broken for you. This do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood. This do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come."

It is an important day for me as well as Pascha.  I do not take it lightly and am offended when people here make jest of it.

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

YESHUA

Not this again 

Please, stop pretending that you're a Jew.

Why are you offended by using His real name?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

YESHUA

Not this again 

Please, stop pretending that you're a Jew.

I'm not

[Romaios]

YESHUA

Not this again 

Please, stop pretending that you're a Jew.

Why are you offended by using His real name?

It's highly unlikely that anyone ever called him that back in his day, since they spoke Aramaic in Galilee, not Hebrew. So "Yeshua" is just a Messianic reconstruction. Just like with Jehovah's witnesses, there's some ... vowel trouble.

There was no "a" at the end. The Syriac-speaking Christians still use his original name, i.e. Yeshu. The Greek transliteration merely adds one "s" for the Nominative or a "n" for the Accusative.   

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

YESHUA

Not this again  

Please, stop pretending that you're a Jew.

Why are you offended by using His real name?

It's highly unlikely that anyone ever called him that back in his day, since they spoke Aramaic in Galilee, not Hebrew. So "Yeshua" is just a Messianic reconstruction. Just like with Jehovah's witnesses, there's some ... vowel trouble.

There was no "a" at the end. The Syriac-speaking Christians still use his original name, i.e. Yeshu. The Greek transliteration merely adds one "s" for the Nominative or a "n" for the Accusative.    

Actually Yeshua it is a shortening and later form of Yehoshua used during the 2nd Temple period. The name Yeshu is unknown in archeological sources and inscriptions.  

There were 24  ossuaries found inscribed with Yeshuas and Yehoshuas. None of the others have Yeshu (Shanks and Witherington 2003)

I don't tell you that using Jesus from the Greek should be spelled Eeoosous.  Yeshua and Yeshu are basically the same spelling but using the equivalent Aramaic letters for Yeshu. Yeshu is the pronunciation used in the west syriac dialect.

[Cyrillic]

Why do you even care about this? Isn't the New Testament good enough?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Why do you even care about this? Isn't the New Testament good enough?

I don't know, I wasn't the one who had a problem with it.