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Author Topic: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...  (Read 7530 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: April 19, 2013, 01:43:49 PM »

Then why do you all call me not Orthodox and a judaizer?

Make a guess.
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« Reply #91 on: April 19, 2013, 01:52:37 PM »

Then why do you all call me not Orthodox and a judaizer? You just agreed with me! My dissatisfaction is because most in the Church act like all of you have to me...

Btw, what religious sturcture, diocese or jurisdiction are you part of?
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« Reply #92 on: April 19, 2013, 02:00:59 PM »

Then why do you all call me not Orthodox and a judaizer? You just agreed with me! My dissatisfaction is because most in the Church act like all of you have to me...

Btw, what religious sturcture, diocese or jurisdiction are you part of?

I asked him in Reply #50.  Still waiting for his answer even though I suspect that he's his own bishop of his own jurisdiction.
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« Reply #93 on: April 19, 2013, 02:19:10 PM »

Yom HaBikkarim, the Feast of First Fruits.

I believe it's yom habikkurim.

Quote from: Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon
בִּכּוּרִים n.m. first-fruits—Lv 2:14; 23:17 Nu 28:26 (P) 2 K 4:42 Na 3:12 Ne 13:31; בִּכֻּרִים Lv 23:20 (P); cstr. בִּכּוּרֵי Ex 23:16, 19 (E) 34:22, 26 (J) Nu 13:20 (E) 18:13 (P) Ne 10:36(×2) Ez 44:30; sf. בִּכּוּרֶיךָ Lv 2:14;—the first of grain and fruit that ripened and was gathered and offered to god according to the ritual; לֶחֶם הַבִּכּוּרִים bread made of the new grain offered at Pentecost Lv 23:20; יום הבכורים day of the first-fruits (Pentecost) Nu 28:26.

בִּכְרָה is "young camel".

« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 02:23:04 PM by Romaios » Logged
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« Reply #94 on: April 19, 2013, 02:34:27 PM »

You could hang it over an icon. Tallitot look quite similar to the icon scarves used by Ukrainians.

A great idea, especially if you have an old testament saint or an icon of Christ, it would be a powerful witness I think to a Jewish person coming to your home to see it used in that fashion. I have a friend who is a converted jew who does just that and it speaks volumes of his piety to  jewish friends who come into his Orthodox Christian home.

Thomas

How is that, Jews are not allowed images and here you wrap a tallit around it. I would think that would offend them. 

Wow, I actually agree with Yeshua HaDerekh. 

Thomas, with all due respect, your advice is really just a crude (if well intentioned) attempt to cram friendly interfaith sentiment into Orthodox praxis.  As you know, the very idea of images is strictly forbidden in Judaism, so the idea of putting a Jewish prayer shawl around an icon is, well, almost dually insulting to both faiths.

I know you didn't intend this, and I appreciate your point, as some Jews I know have been shocked and impressed by the continuation of certain Old Testament themes within Orthodox life.  But let's not push things too far, which I think your recommendation is doing.  Plus, dcommini already stated that he doesn't really know many Jews, so it's not like he's parading them through his prayer corner in the hopes of converting them en masse.   
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« Reply #95 on: April 19, 2013, 02:36:23 PM »

Judaising is a heresy. Let us remember that.

Indeed. Too bad it has gotten so popular as of late.

A lot of the "good" ones do.  And judging from some of the responses on here, we'll probably see this one continue to grow for awhile.
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« Reply #96 on: April 19, 2013, 02:37:11 PM »

Yom HaBikkarim, the Feast of First Fruits.

I believe it's yom habikkurim.

Quote from: Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon
בִּכּוּרִים n.m. first-fruits—Lv 2:14; 23:17 Nu 28:26 (P) 2 K 4:42 Na 3:12 Ne 13:31; בִּכֻּרִים Lv 23:20 (P); cstr. בִּכּוּרֵי Ex 23:16, 19 (E) 34:22, 26 (J) Nu 13:20 (E) 18:13 (P) Ne 10:36(×2) Ez 44:30; sf. בִּכּוּרֶיךָ Lv 2:14;—the first of grain and fruit that ripened and was gathered and offered to god according to the ritual; לֶחֶם הַבִּכּוּרִים bread made of the new grain offered at Pentecost Lv 23:20; יום הבכורים day of the first-fruits (Pentecost) Nu 28:26.

בִּכְרָה is "young camel".


Someone should compile a list of messianic translation hilarity. 
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« Reply #97 on: April 19, 2013, 03:13:47 PM »

Then why do you all call me not Orthodox and a judaizer? You just agreed with me! My dissatisfaction is because most in the Church act like all of you have to me...

Btw, what religious sturcture, diocese or jurisdiction are you part of?

I asked him in Reply #50.  Still waiting for his answer even though I suspect that he's his own bishop of his own jurisdiction.

So fascinated in it aren't you. EC
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« Reply #98 on: April 19, 2013, 03:15:37 PM »

Then why do you all call me not Orthodox and a judaizer?

Make a guess.

because you like to cast the first stone and judge others...pharisee
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« Reply #99 on: April 19, 2013, 03:22:40 PM »

Then why do you all call me not Orthodox and a judaizer? You just agreed with me! My dissatisfaction is because most in the Church act like all of you have to me...

Btw, what religious sturcture, diocese or jurisdiction are you part of?

I asked him in Reply #50.  Still waiting for his answer even though I suspect that he's his own bishop of his own jurisdiction.

So fascinated in it aren't you. EC

EC - Eastern Catholic? or something else?  Did they throw you out because of your Judaizing?
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« Reply #100 on: April 19, 2013, 04:03:28 PM »

Having respect and appreciation for Judaism doesn't have to turn into co-opting the culture/religion. My priest is a famous EO priest that wrote a very famous booklet and book on Judaism and Orthodoxy. Not to be rude/proud, but if you were active in an Orthodox parish, you likely would know who he is. Wink The fact that you haven't guessed who he is, and you are so reluctant to say what your connection to being Orthodox is, makes me think you are a "home church" orthodox believer. I imagine you are taking bits and pieces from everywhere and attempting to make the "perfect" Christianity. The problem being that Orthodox Christianity isn't meant to be practiced in a vacuum. The church as a community is an essential aspect of the Orthodox life/faith. Yes, there are monastics that live alone. But they lived in community before they went out into seclusion, and continue to live in community in seclusion. They don't go out into the desert simply to practice their faith for themselves.

A prayer shawl is meant to be used in a specific way. You are taught how to use it. You live in a community that shows you how to use it. It isn't meant to be something you just pick up and start using because it is "cool." My priest wears something akin the a kippah, but not for religious reasons. And it is more akin to a tam than the little domes most people think of. There was a time when all men wore hats to be properly attired. I imagine growing up always wearing some sort of hat, you feel somewhat naked without one later in life.
 

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« Reply #101 on: April 19, 2013, 04:09:06 PM »

This pseudodiscussion is fascinating but please, refrain from throwing epithets against your opponents.

This is for both sides.
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« Reply #102 on: April 19, 2013, 04:11:54 PM »

Religion aside, it is an issue of respect. It isn't respectful to co-opt a culture. As an American Indian I find hipster headdresses, and pocahottie costumes offensive in the extreme. I personally don't see the "reverrant" or "respectful" co-opting of culture to be any better than the irreverent and "fun" co-opting of culture.
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« Reply #103 on: April 19, 2013, 04:27:01 PM »

pocahottie costumes

This phrase makes me mourn immensely for my great^10 grandmother.
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« Reply #104 on: April 19, 2013, 04:41:35 PM »

pocahottie costumes

This phrase makes me mourn immensely for my great^10 grandmother.

You can google that exact word and see the costume. There are all sorts of variations on the same "sexy indian" theme. No wonder native women are more than 2.5 times more likely to be sexually assaulted...http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/women-s-rights/violence-against-women/maze-of-injustice
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« Reply #105 on: April 19, 2013, 04:44:20 PM »

pocahottie costumes

This phrase makes me mourn immensely for my great^10 grandmother.

You can google that exact word and see the costume. There are all sorts of variations on the same "sexy indian" theme. No wonder native women are more than 2.5 times more likely to be sexually assaulted...http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/women-s-rights/violence-against-women/maze-of-injustice

I'd rather not see the costume, I'm already sure I know what it looks like. That costume and Disney do my great grandmother a great disservice.
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« Reply #106 on: April 19, 2013, 05:44:49 PM »

Religion aside, it is an issue of respect. It isn't respectful to co-opt a culture. As an American Indian I find hipster headdresses, and pocahottie costumes offensive in the extreme. I personally don't see the "reverrant" or "respectful" co-opting of culture to be any better than the irreverent and "fun" co-opting of culture.
I agree, I wonder what my grandmother's Indian reservation would think if someone came wearing one.
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« Reply #107 on: April 20, 2013, 11:25:21 AM »

You could hang it over an icon. Tallitot look quite similar to the icon scarves used by Ukrainians.

A great idea, especially if you have an old testament saint or an icon of Christ, it would be a powerful witness I think to a Jewish person coming to your home to see it used in that fashion. I have a friend who is a converted jew who does just that and it speaks volumes of his piety to  jewish friends who come into his Orthodox Christian home.

Thomas

How is that, Jews are not allowed images and here you wrap a tallit around it. I would think that would offend them. 

Wow, I actually agree with Yeshua HaDerekh. 

Thomas, with all due respect, your advice is really just a crude (if well intentioned) attempt to cram friendly interfaith sentiment into Orthodox praxis.  As you know, the very idea of images is strictly forbidden in Judaism, so the idea of putting a Jewish prayer shawl around an icon is, well, almost dually insulting to both faiths.

I know you didn't intend this, and I appreciate your point, as some Jews I know have been shocked and impressed by the continuation of certain Old Testament themes within Orthodox life.  But let's not push things too far, which I think your recommendation is doing.  Plus, dcommini already stated that he doesn't really know many Jews, so it's not like he's parading them through his prayer corner in the hopes of converting them en masse.   


Jews had images: http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/artmuseum/exhibitions/archive/dura/synagogue.html

"Abandoned after a Sasanian siege and sack in 256 CE, the site remained virtually unexplored until 1928, when excavations at Dura-Europos were initiated by Yale University. Buildings uncovered included a synagogue painted with biblical scenes (something thought impossible given the prohibition against figural images in Jewish law); one of the first Christian house churches, with the earliest-known baptistery; and a place of worship for the mystery religion of Mithraism. Such discoveries fundamentally altered the understanding of religious practice in antiquity. Displaying highly significant treasures excavated at Dura-Europos and now in the collection of the Yale University Art Gallery, the exhibition partially reconstructs some of the city’s ancient religious spaces with their celebrated wall paintings (some newly restored) and explores interactions among the disparate cultural, religious, and professional groups that inhabited Dura-Europos. "

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/artmuseum/exhibitions/archive/dura/
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« Reply #108 on: April 20, 2013, 11:31:31 AM »

I give things from other religions away to people who practice that religion. 

Someone gave me an old Roman Catholic style crucifix for Christmas, and another friend had given me a blessed rosary from Notre Dame Cathedral, so I put them in a box and mailed them to a person who needed them, a now practicing Catholic, but couldn't afford things.
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« Reply #109 on: April 20, 2013, 01:13:44 PM »


Jews had images...


True, but not of God.  Icon corners have that.

I give things from other religions away to people who practice that religion. 

Someone gave me an old Roman Catholic style crucifix for Christmas, and another friend had given me a blessed rosary from Notre Dame Cathedral, so I put them in a box and mailed them to a person who needed them, a now practicing Catholic, but couldn't afford things.

Seems like an appropriate and thoughtful thing to do.
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« Reply #110 on: April 20, 2013, 02:27:25 PM »

Having respect and appreciation for Judaism doesn't have to turn into co-opting the culture/religion. My priest is a famous EO priest that wrote a very famous booklet and book on Judaism and Orthodoxy. Not to be rude/proud, but if you were active in an Orthodox parish, you likely would know who he is. Wink The fact that you haven't guessed who he is, and you are so reluctant to say what your connection to being Orthodox is, makes me think you are a "home church" orthodox believer. I imagine you are taking bits and pieces from everywhere and attempting to make the "perfect" Christianity. The problem being that Orthodox Christianity isn't meant to be practiced in a vacuum. The church as a community is an essential aspect of the Orthodox life/faith. Yes, there are monastics that live alone. But they lived in community before they went out into seclusion, and continue to live in community in seclusion. They don't go out into the desert simply to practice their faith for themselves.

A prayer shawl is meant to be used in a specific way. You are taught how to use it. You live in a community that shows you how to use it. It isn't meant to be something you just pick up and start using because it is "cool." My priest wears something akin the a kippah, but not for religious reasons. And it is more akin to a tam than the little domes most people think of. There was a time when all men wore hats to be properly attired. I imagine growing up always wearing some sort of hat, you feel somewhat naked without one later in life.
 



Fr. Bernstein in Bethesda MD (at least that is where he used to be I think)? You can "imagine" all you want and it is quite obvious that you do quite often here! You are wrong, I am cradle Orthodox. I am now under the EP.
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« Reply #111 on: April 20, 2013, 02:30:39 PM »


[/quote]

EC - Eastern Catholic? or something else?  Did they throw you out because of your Judaizing?
[/quote]

How lovingly Orthodox of you...
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« Reply #112 on: April 20, 2013, 02:49:23 PM »

Quote from: SolEX01
EC - Eastern Catholic? or something else?  Did they throw you out because of your Judaizing?

How lovingly Orthodox of you...

How can you be under the EP if you don't recognize his apostolic succession back to St. Andrew?  You said the Orthodox church ended with the death of St. John the Theologian circa 100 AD.  How do you explain where Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew comes from?
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« Reply #113 on: April 20, 2013, 02:49:31 PM »

Having respect and appreciation for Judaism doesn't have to turn into co-opting the culture/religion. My priest is a famous EO priest that wrote a very famous booklet and book on Judaism and Orthodoxy. Not to be rude/proud, but if you were active in an Orthodox parish, you likely would know who he is. Wink The fact that you haven't guessed who he is, and you are so reluctant to say what your connection to being Orthodox is, makes me think you are a "home church" orthodox believer. I imagine you are taking bits and pieces from everywhere and attempting to make the "perfect" Christianity. The problem being that Orthodox Christianity isn't meant to be practiced in a vacuum. The church as a community is an essential aspect of the Orthodox life/faith. Yes, there are monastics that live alone. But they lived in community before they went out into seclusion, and continue to live in community in seclusion. They don't go out into the desert simply to practice their faith for themselves.

A prayer shawl is meant to be used in a specific way. You are taught how to use it. You live in a community that shows you how to use it. It isn't meant to be something you just pick up and start using because it is "cool." My priest wears something akin the a kippah, but not for religious reasons. And it is more akin to a tam than the little domes most people think of. There was a time when all men wore hats to be properly attired. I imagine growing up always wearing some sort of hat, you feel somewhat naked without one later in life.
 



Fr. Bernstein in Bethesda MD (at least that is where he used to be I think)? You can "imagine" all you want and it is quite obvious that you do quite often here! You are wrong, I am cradle Orthodox. I am now under the EP.

Good internet searching skills Wink But he doesn't live in Betheseda MD obviously since *I* don't live in MD.
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« Reply #114 on: April 20, 2013, 04:05:01 PM »

Having respect and appreciation for Judaism doesn't have to turn into co-opting the culture/religion. My priest is a famous EO priest that wrote a very famous booklet and book on Judaism and Orthodoxy. Not to be rude/proud, but if you were active in an Orthodox parish, you likely would know who he is. Wink The fact that you haven't guessed who he is, and you are so reluctant to say what your connection to being Orthodox is, makes me think you are a "home church" orthodox believer. I imagine you are taking bits and pieces from everywhere and attempting to make the "perfect" Christianity. The problem being that Orthodox Christianity isn't meant to be practiced in a vacuum. The church as a community is an essential aspect of the Orthodox life/faith. Yes, there are monastics that live alone. But they lived in community before they went out into seclusion, and continue to live in community in seclusion. They don't go out into the desert simply to practice their faith for themselves.

A prayer shawl is meant to be used in a specific way. You are taught how to use it. You live in a community that shows you how to use it. It isn't meant to be something you just pick up and start using because it is "cool." My priest wears something akin the a kippah, but not for religious reasons. And it is more akin to a tam than the little domes most people think of. There was a time when all men wore hats to be properly attired. I imagine growing up always wearing some sort of hat, you feel somewhat naked without one later in life.
 



Fr. Bernstein in Bethesda MD (at least that is where he used to be I think)? You can "imagine" all you want and it is quite obvious that you do quite often here! You are wrong, I am cradle Orthodox. I am now under the EP.

Good internet searching skills Wink But he doesn't live in Betheseda MD obviously since *I* don't live in MD.

Wrong again. I actually contacted him once.  I believe he was in MD at that time but that was years ago...
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« Reply #115 on: April 20, 2013, 04:06:07 PM »

Quote from: SolEX01
EC - Eastern Catholic? or something else?  Did they throw you out because of your Judaizing?

How lovingly Orthodox of you...

How can you be under the EP if you don't recognize his apostolic succession back to St. Andrew?  You said the Orthodox church ended with the death of St. John the Theologian circa 100 AD.  How do you explain where Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew comes from?

I never said ANY of that...YOU all said I did.
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« Reply #116 on: April 20, 2013, 04:36:22 PM »

Quote from: SolEX01
EC - Eastern Catholic? or something else?  Did they throw you out because of your Judaizing?

How lovingly Orthodox of you...

How can you be under the EP if you don't recognize his apostolic succession back to St. Andrew?  You said the Orthodox church ended with the death of St. John the Theologian circa 100 AD.  How do you explain where Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew comes from?

I never said ANY of that...YOU all said I did.

No one is putting words in your mouth.  The question is a fair one; how do you reconcile current Orthodox Christian faith and hierarchy with the one that died in 100 AD?
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« Reply #117 on: April 20, 2013, 04:38:39 PM »

Quote from: SolEX01
EC - Eastern Catholic? or something else?  Did they throw you out because of your Judaizing?

How lovingly Orthodox of you...

How can you be under the EP if you don't recognize his apostolic succession back to St. Andrew?  You said the Orthodox church ended with the death of St. John the Theologian circa 100 AD.  How do you explain where Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew comes from?

I never said ANY of that...YOU all said I did.

No one is putting words in your mouth.  The question is a fair one; how do you reconcile current Orthodox Christian faith and hierarchy with the one that died in 100 AD?

Died in 100AD? Only John died in 100AD. I never said the Church did.  What is there to reconcile?
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« Reply #118 on: April 20, 2013, 04:46:35 PM »

Having respect and appreciation for Judaism doesn't have to turn into co-opting the culture/religion. My priest is a famous EO priest that wrote a very famous booklet and book on Judaism and Orthodoxy. Not to be rude/proud, but if you were active in an Orthodox parish, you likely would know who he is. Wink The fact that you haven't guessed who he is, and you are so reluctant to say what your connection to being Orthodox is, makes me think you are a "home church" orthodox believer. I imagine you are taking bits and pieces from everywhere and attempting to make the "perfect" Christianity. The problem being that Orthodox Christianity isn't meant to be practiced in a vacuum. The church as a community is an essential aspect of the Orthodox life/faith. Yes, there are monastics that live alone. But they lived in community before they went out into seclusion, and continue to live in community in seclusion. They don't go out into the desert simply to practice their faith for themselves.

A prayer shawl is meant to be used in a specific way. You are taught how to use it. You live in a community that shows you how to use it. It isn't meant to be something you just pick up and start using because it is "cool." My priest wears something akin the a kippah, but not for religious reasons. And it is more akin to a tam than the little domes most people think of. There was a time when all men wore hats to be properly attired. I imagine growing up always wearing some sort of hat, you feel somewhat naked without one later in life.
 



Fr. Bernstein in Bethesda MD (at least that is where he used to be I think)? You can "imagine" all you want and it is quite obvious that you do quite often here! You are wrong, I am cradle Orthodox. I am now under the EP.

Good internet searching skills Wink But he doesn't live in Betheseda MD obviously since *I* don't live in MD.

Wrong again. I actually contacted him once.  I believe he was in MD at that time but that was years ago...

Would have to have been quite some years ago given the fact that he has been here over 20 years...
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« Reply #119 on: April 20, 2013, 04:48:08 PM »

Quote from: SolEX01
EC - Eastern Catholic? or something else?  Did they throw you out because of your Judaizing?

How lovingly Orthodox of you...

How can you be under the EP if you don't recognize his apostolic succession back to St. Andrew?  You said the Orthodox church ended with the death of St. John the Theologian circa 100 AD.  How do you explain where Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew comes from?

I never said ANY of that...YOU all said I did.

No one is putting words in your mouth.  The question is a fair one; how do you reconcile current Orthodox Christian faith and hierarchy with the one that died in 100 AD?

Died in 100AD? Only John died in 100AD. I never said the Church did.  What is there to reconcile?

Your use of Jewish practices and beliefs.  One cannot serve two masters.
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« Reply #120 on: April 20, 2013, 04:54:16 PM »

Although Fr. James recognizes the parallels between Judaism and Orthodoxy clearly. He would never attempt to bring Judaism into Orthodoxy like some sort of Messianic Orthodoxy. For him it was reconciling what he already knew/believed with Orthodox Christianity. He is Jewish and Orthodox. But he certainly doesn't seek to take Jewish practices and make them Orthodox. He simply maintains the ones in harmony. For example; he would not do a Passover service for our parish. Although the service is fascinating, it isn't as meaningful as the services of Holy Week. He did the Messianic Judaism with Moshe Rosen when he was a part of Jews for Jesus, he left that movement for a reason Wink
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« Reply #121 on: April 20, 2013, 05:00:37 PM »

Fr. Av is a wonderful Jewish Orthodox Christian priest as well. But he doesn't attempt to force Judaism into Orthodoxy. https://sites.google.com/site/hebrewinchurch/

Fr. Aleksandr is a very prolific writer. If you really want to investigate Judaism in connection with Orthodoxy, I would read what he has written.
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« Reply #122 on: April 20, 2013, 05:07:15 PM »

Having respect and appreciation for Judaism doesn't have to turn into co-opting the culture/religion. My priest is a famous EO priest that wrote a very famous booklet and book on Judaism and Orthodoxy. Not to be rude/proud, but if you were active in an Orthodox parish, you likely would know who he is. Wink The fact that you haven't guessed who he is, and you are so reluctant to say what your connection to being Orthodox is, makes me think you are a "home church" orthodox believer. I imagine you are taking bits and pieces from everywhere and attempting to make the "perfect" Christianity. The problem being that Orthodox Christianity isn't meant to be practiced in a vacuum. The church as a community is an essential aspect of the Orthodox life/faith. Yes, there are monastics that live alone. But they lived in community before they went out into seclusion, and continue to live in community in seclusion. They don't go out into the desert simply to practice their faith for themselves.

A prayer shawl is meant to be used in a specific way. You are taught how to use it. You live in a community that shows you how to use it. It isn't meant to be something you just pick up and start using because it is "cool." My priest wears something akin the a kippah, but not for religious reasons. And it is more akin to a tam than the little domes most people think of. There was a time when all men wore hats to be properly attired. I imagine growing up always wearing some sort of hat, you feel somewhat naked without one later in life.
 



Fr. Bernstein in Bethesda MD (at least that is where he used to be I think)? You can "imagine" all you want and it is quite obvious that you do quite often here! You are wrong, I am cradle Orthodox. I am now under the EP.

Good internet searching skills Wink But he doesn't live in Betheseda MD obviously since *I* don't live in MD.

Wrong again. I actually contacted him once.  I believe he was in MD at that time but that was years ago...

Would have to have been quite some years ago given the fact that he has been here over 20 years...

It was, but I now not sure it was Fr. James. I may have emailed him too. I think there was a Jewish priest in the OCA in MD too. I have the "Orthodoxy: Jewish and Christian" pamphlet right here in front of me published in 1990.   
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« Reply #123 on: April 20, 2013, 05:08:25 PM »

Fr. Av is a wonderful Jewish Orthodox Christian priest as well. But he doesn't attempt to force Judaism into Orthodoxy. https://sites.google.com/site/hebrewinchurch/

Fr. Aleksandr is a very prolific writer. If you really want to investigate Judaism in connection with Orthodoxy, I would read what he has written.

How can one force what was already there?Huh
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« Reply #124 on: April 20, 2013, 05:10:40 PM »

You recognize that there are certainly Jewish practices and beliefs that are incompatible with Orthodoxy, right?
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« Reply #125 on: April 20, 2013, 05:14:37 PM »

Although Fr. James recognizes the parallels between Judaism and Orthodoxy clearly. He would never attempt to bring Judaism into Orthodoxy like some sort of Messianic Orthodoxy. For him it was reconciling what he already knew/believed with Orthodox Christianity. He is Jewish and Orthodox. But he certainly doesn't seek to take Jewish practices and make them Orthodox. He simply maintains the ones in harmony. For example; he would not do a Passover service for our parish. Although the service is fascinating, it isn't as meaningful as the services of Holy Week. He did the Messianic Judaism with Moshe Rosen when he was a part of Jews for Jesus, he left that movement for a reason Wink

The Orthodox church DID JUST THAT!
 
Passover became Holy Thursday
Yom HaBikkurim became Pascha
Shavuot became Pentecost  

Ask him about what I have said regarding the feast days.  All of this was observed by the Apostles and the Church.  I am not inventing anything new. I am just observing what was...
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« Reply #126 on: April 20, 2013, 05:15:16 PM »

You recognize that there are certainly Jewish practices and beliefs that are incompatible with Orthodoxy, right?

Of course!
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« Reply #127 on: April 20, 2013, 05:16:30 PM »

Quote from: SolEX01
EC - Eastern Catholic? or something else?  Did they throw you out because of your Judaizing?

How lovingly Orthodox of you...

How can you be under the EP if you don't recognize his apostolic succession back to St. Andrew?  You said the Orthodox church ended with the death of St. John the Theologian circa 100 AD.  How do you explain where Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew comes from?

I never said ANY of that...YOU all said I did.

No one is putting words in your mouth.  The question is a fair one; how do you reconcile current Orthodox Christian faith and hierarchy with the one that died in 100 AD?

Died in 100AD? Only John died in 100AD. I never said the Church did.  What is there to reconcile?

Your use of Jewish practices and beliefs.  One cannot serve two masters.

I only serve one...YESHUA
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« Reply #128 on: April 20, 2013, 05:18:59 PM »

Both Fr. Aleksandr and Fr. Bernstein view Orthodoxy as the fulfillment of Judaism rather than a replacement. Neither one of them would view Jewish practices as superior to Orthodox practices. From how you write on this issue, it seems that you view Jewish practices as superior/preferable to Orthodox practices.
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« Reply #129 on: April 20, 2013, 05:21:10 PM »

Fr. Aleksandr is a very prolific writer. If you really want to investigate Judaism in connection with Orthodoxy, I would read what he has written.

For a moment I thought you meant this Fr. Aleksandr, another famous Russian Orthodox priest of Jewish descent.

A renowned Jewish convert to Orthodoxy in Romania was Fr. Nicolae Steinhardt.

Neither of them was a Judaizer.
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« Reply #130 on: April 20, 2013, 05:24:36 PM »

If you are celebrating the Jewish services of Passover and the like, you are choosing to do something that is a foreshadowing of the fulfillment in the Orthodox church. Why would you desire to do something halfway, when you can do it fully? Simply because you have a romantic love for Judaism?
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« Reply #131 on: April 20, 2013, 05:28:30 PM »

Quote from: SolEX01
EC - Eastern Catholic? or something else?  Did they throw you out because of your Judaizing?

How lovingly Orthodox of you...

How can you be under the EP if you don't recognize his apostolic succession back to St. Andrew?  You said the Orthodox church ended with the death of St. John the Theologian circa 100 AD.  How do you explain where Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew comes from?

I never said ANY of that...YOU all said I did.

No one is putting words in your mouth.  The question is a fair one; how do you reconcile current Orthodox Christian faith and hierarchy with the one that died in 100 AD?

Died in 100AD? Only John died in 100AD. I never said the Church did.  What is there to reconcile?

Your use of Jewish practices and beliefs.  One cannot serve two masters.

I only serve one...YESHUA

In a syncretic way - incorporating Eastern Orthodox practices with those of Judaism by claiming they are one in the same?
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« Reply #132 on: April 20, 2013, 05:31:04 PM »

Since Fr. James teaches the catechism classes, I am well aware that the feasts of Orthodoxy have roots in Judaism. I don't have to ask him about the Jewish feasts in connection with the Orthodox feasts. Although, if you read a nice Anglican Book; "The Shape of the Liturgy" you can learn more about that. Orthodoxy isn't the only faith that recognizes that connection.

But my view, and the view that has been taught to me by Fr. James, is that Orthodox feasts are the fulfillment of the Jewish feasts. To celebrate the Jewish feasts instead of the Orthodox feasts, you are actively choosing the lesser option. Once you know the Truth, you can't/shouldn't go back to the lesser truth.
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« Reply #133 on: April 20, 2013, 07:04:36 PM »


I have no clue what to do with the prayer shawl... So what do I do?

 I would use it to drape over an icon like the Slavic tradition.  There are some icons that depict a shawl hovering over the saints depicted.  The icon of the Last Supper usually depicts this. 
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« Reply #134 on: April 20, 2013, 07:16:41 PM »

There are some icons that depict a shawl hovering over the saints depicted.  The icon of the Last Supper usually depicts this. 

The drape seen in icons is a symbol that the event depicted in the icon took place indoors. Proper icons use inverse perspective and other means to "uncover" what went on, in ways which are the opposite of earthly realism, to express heavenly and spiritual reality. The Mystical Supper, though it was conducted inside, is not shown in a room with walls which limits it in time and place, but is shown "in the open", as the eternal event that it is. The festooning of the drape in the icon's composition is the motif which tells us that the Supper indeed took place indoors.

Conventional icons of saints do not show the drape, unless it is in a panel of a "life" icon, showing a scene from the saint's life which took place indoors.
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