Author Topic: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...  (Read 9875 times)

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Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #45 on: April 18, 2013, 07:59:06 PM »
I AM an Orthodox Christian and you have NO authority to claim otherwise! Do you consider Yeshua, all His Apostles as well as all of the early Eastern Churches Orthodox? If yes, then I am too. If no, then it is YOU that are not Orthodox!

Why did you pick year 100?  What happened to you that caused you to take this stance?

that was the time the Apostolic age ended...St John died.
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2013, 08:02:49 PM »
I AM an Orthodox Christian and you have NO authority to claim otherwise! Do you consider Yeshua, all His Apostles as well as all of the early Eastern Churches Orthodox? If yes, then I am too. If no, then it is YOU that are not Orthodox!

Why did you pick year 100?  What happened to you that caused you to take this stance?

that was the time the Apostolic age ended...St John died.

You don't believe the Apostles ordained other men to continue Christ's ministry.  You believe that the Orthodox Church died with St. John?

You believe that Christianity, in its current configuration, is a fraud?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 08:03:04 PM by SolEX01 »

Offline Romaios

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2013, 08:16:33 PM »
that was the time the Apostolic age ended...St John died.

But he had talmidim - good ones too: St. Polycarp and St. Irenaeus.

Quote from: Sirach 44:10-15
These also were godly men,
whose righteous deeds have not been forgotten;
11 their wealth will remain with their descendants,
and their inheritance with their children’s children.
12 Their descendants stand by the covenants;
their children also, for their sake.
13 Their offspring will continue forever,
and their glory will never be blotted out.
14 Their bodies are buried in peace,
but their name lives on generation after generation.
15 The assembly declares their wisdom,
and the congregation proclaims their praise.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 08:17:55 PM by Romaios »

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2013, 09:07:11 PM »
I AM an Orthodox Christian and you have NO authority to claim otherwise! Do you consider Yeshua, all His Apostles as well as all of the early Eastern Churches Orthodox? If yes, then I am too. If no, then it is YOU that are not Orthodox!

Why did you pick year 100?  What happened to you that caused you to take this stance?

that was the time the Apostolic age ended...St John died.

You don't believe the Apostles ordained other men to continue Christ's ministry.  You believe that the Orthodox Church died with St. John?

You believe that Christianity, in its current configuration, is a fraud?

Did I say that?
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2013, 09:09:08 PM »

But he had talmidim - good ones too: St. Polycarp and St. Irenaeus.

Yes he did! And I do as they did...yet I am criticized for it!
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 09:11:40 PM by Yeshua HaDerekh »
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2013, 10:05:02 PM »
I AM an Orthodox Christian and you have NO authority to claim otherwise! Do you consider Yeshua, all His Apostles as well as all of the early Eastern Churches Orthodox? If yes, then I am too. If no, then it is YOU that are not Orthodox!

Why did you pick year 100?  What happened to you that caused you to take this stance?

that was the time the Apostolic age ended...St John died.

You don't believe the Apostles ordained other men to continue Christ's ministry.  You believe that the Orthodox Church died with St. John?

You believe that Christianity, in its current configuration, is a fraud?

Did I say that?

Who are you in communion with?  Is there a Bishop somewhere that practices 1st century Christianity with a Jewish flavor?

Offline Cognomen

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2013, 10:51:35 PM »
I'll try to avoid getting another warning based on Mr. First Century Orthodox' account of the super-true Orthodox faith.

I know you've singled out St. Polycarp and St. Irenaeus for your fake religion, but have you not read St. Ignatius of Antioch?

You identify the end of legitimate Orthodoxy with the death of St. John.  But you neglect to speak of St. Ignatius, who explicitly wrote against your form of praxis.  And, he wrote well before St. Irenaeus, who had no direct connection to St. John.  Why do you never cite St. Ignatius' (and almost the entirety of the Church's) view on this? 

Seriously, if you're going to create some idol out of a time period, at least get your chronology straight. 

Why do I waste my time writing stuff like this?  You're not Jewish, and you aren't Orthodox (being baptized alone doesn't ensure this).  And no, I don't have the authority to determine this, but the Church--the actual existing one, not your imaginary one that died out, apparently in 100AD.  And you likely won't respond to any cogent arguments. 

Why are you here?  Are you here to convert us or show us the error of our new-fangled 21st Century, Jewish deficient ways?

So back to wasting my time......................................
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2013, 10:55:05 PM »
My mother recently returned from Israel where she saw such sites as the Church of the Nativity, Church of The Holy Sepulchre, and some other interesting things. She brought my wife back a nice cashmere head scarf, and she brought me back and icon of St. George and a Jewish prayer shawl (legitimately kosher) .

I have no clue what to do with the prayer shawl. I'm not going to use it and I don't really want to re-gift it as I don't know many Jewish people, and I don't want to just stick it in the closet... So what do I do?

FYI, my mother is not Orthodox, but I did ask her to see some Orthodox sites for me.

It's only for men that have had a bar mitzvoh.. Donate it to a local Synagogue.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Cognomen

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2013, 10:56:37 PM »
And instructing dcommini to "use" the Jewish prayer shawl?  Is this an Orthodox Christian site or not?   Perhaps a kind gift from your mother, but I think your gut reaction got it right.

And what Marc posted as well.  If posters don't care about what's acceptable, encouraged or part of Orthodox Christian practices, then at least be respectful of the Jewish ones.  

« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 10:59:56 PM by Cognomen »
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Offline Gisasargavak

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2013, 11:58:19 PM »
To the OP:

If you consult Chrysostom, there you will find your answer.

Offline leap of faith

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2013, 12:04:36 AM »
To the OP:

If you consult Chrysostom, there you will find your answer.

Well, shoot.  Now I feel like I'm in a scene from "The Field of Dreams."  I'm a newbie.  Can you elaborate...because I'm goin' with Cognomen's answer thus far but I'm certainly interested in what St. John Chrysostom has to say about this.

Offline dcommini

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2013, 12:37:42 AM »
To the OP:

If you consult Chrysostom, there you will find your answer.

Well, shoot.  Now I feel like I'm in a scene from "The Field of Dreams."  I'm a newbie.  Can you elaborate...because I'm goin' with Cognomen's answer thus far but I'm certainly interested in what St. John Chrysostom has to say about this.

Now I'm interested too!

Also, i never said I would use it. I was just wanting some insight as what to do with the tallit.

N/OblSB

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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2013, 12:57:40 AM »
I'm certainly interested in what St. John Chrysostom has to say about this.
Uh oh.

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πλούσιοι επτώχευσαν και επείνασαν
Οιδε εκζητούντες τον Κύριον
Ουκ ελαττωθήσονται παντός αγαθού

Offline LBK

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2013, 01:02:56 AM »
I'm certainly interested in what St. John Chrysostom has to say about this.
Uh oh.



He of the Golden Mouth is renowned for not mincing his words. Somehow I doubt he'd be coy about this matter.  :laugh:
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Offline Romaios

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2013, 04:07:30 AM »
I'm certainly interested in what St. John Chrysostom has to say about this.
Uh oh.



He of the Golden Mouth is renowned for not mincing his words. Somehow I doubt he'd be coy about this matter.  :laugh:

Quote from: St. John Chrysostom, First Homily Against the Jews
Another very serious illness calls for any cure my words can bring, an illness which has become implanted in the body of the Church. We must first root this ailment out and then take thought for matters outside; we must first cure our own and then be concerned for others who are strangers.

What is this disease? The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. Yet some of these are going to watch the festivals and others will join the Jews in keeping their feasts and observing their fasts. I wish to drive this perverse custom from the Church right now.

Source

Offline Quinault

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2013, 05:37:42 AM »
Our priest is Jewish. He wears a kippah sometimes outside of services. He has a *reason* to wear it because he is Jewish and Orthodox. Someone once had the audacity to ask him; "Hey Father, what's with the sacred beanie." Needless to say, Fr. was not amused and corrected him.

Playing around with wearing the prayer shawl isn't a good idea. Not because it is evil or sinful. Because you have no connection to the practice whatsoever. You wouldn't just hand out prayer ropes and encourage people to just pray whatever with them. It is a sacred object. The prayer shawl is a sacred object as well. If you can't keep it as a token of the kindness of your mother in good conscience then by all means donate it somewhere to someone. A local hospital would be a good place to start, just speak to the hospital Chaplin.

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2013, 05:49:38 AM »
I AM an Orthodox Christian and you have NO authority to claim otherwise! Do you consider Yeshua, all His Apostles as well as all of the early Eastern Churches Orthodox? If yes, then I am too. If no, then it is YOU that are not Orthodox!

Why did you pick year 100?  What happened to you that caused you to take this stance?

that was the time the Apostolic age ended...St John died.

You don't believe the Apostles ordained other men to continue Christ's ministry.  You believe that the Orthodox Church died with St. John?

You believe that Christianity, in its current configuration, is a fraud?

So this is what Orthodox sedevacantism is like... Meh.
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Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2013, 06:08:43 AM »
Our priest is Jewish. He wears a kippah sometimes outside of services. He has a *reason* to wear it because he is Jewish and Orthodox. Someone once had the audacity to ask him; "Hey Father, what's with the sacred beanie." Needless to say, Fr. was not amused and corrected him.

Playing around with wearing the prayer shawl isn't a good idea. Not because it is evil or sinful. Because you have no connection to the practice whatsoever. You wouldn't just hand out prayer ropes and encourage people to just pray whatever with them. It is a sacred object. The prayer shawl is a sacred object as well. If you can't keep it as a token of the kindness of your mother in good conscience then by all means donate it somewhere to someone. A local hospital would be a good place to start, just speak to the hospital Chaplin.

Who is your priest? I would love to meet him! Are you saying that ONLY Jews can use a prayer shall? Are you saying that a prayer shawl is somehow wrong with Orthodox prayer? Yes, it IS a spiritual object and should be used as such. No one said to play around with it...
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #63 on: April 19, 2013, 06:18:46 AM »
I'll try to avoid getting another warning based on Mr. First Century Orthodox' account of the super-true Orthodox faith.

I know you've singled out St. Polycarp and St. Irenaeus for your fake religion, but have you not read St. Ignatius of Antioch?

You identify the end of legitimate Orthodoxy with the death of St. John.  But you neglect to speak of St. Ignatius, who explicitly wrote against your form of praxis.  And, he wrote well before St. Irenaeus, who had no direct connection to St. John.  Why do you never cite St. Ignatius' (and almost the entirety of the Church's) view on this? 

Seriously, if you're going to create some idol out of a time period, at least get your chronology straight. 

Why do I waste my time writing stuff like this?  You're not Jewish, and you aren't Orthodox (being baptized alone doesn't ensure this).  And no, I don't have the authority to determine this, but the Church--the actual existing one, not your imaginary one that died out, apparently in 100AD.  And you likely won't respond to any cogent arguments. 

Why are you here?  Are you here to convert us or show us the error of our new-fangled 21st Century, Jewish deficient ways?

So back to wasting my time......................................


Maybe you should read the 9th Commandment. It must be nice for you to put words into some else's mouth to falsely win an argument that never existed...
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Gorazd

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #64 on: April 19, 2013, 06:20:45 AM »
Judaising is a heresy. Let us remember that.

Offline Romaios

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #65 on: April 19, 2013, 06:22:17 AM »
Who is your priest? I would love to meet him! Are you saying that ONLY Jews can use a prayer shall? Are you saying that a prayer shawl is somehow wrong with Orthodox prayer? Yes, it IS a spiritual object and should be used as such. No one said to play around with it...

I own a talit. I'd never even think of putting it on for prayer. It would be clownish to do so.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #66 on: April 19, 2013, 06:29:36 AM »
I'm certainly interested in what St. John Chrysostom has to say about this.
Uh oh.



He of the Golden Mouth is renowned for not mincing his words. Somehow I doubt he'd be coy about this matter.  :laugh:

Are you saying all Saints are infallible? Chrysostom was a man and he obviously had a dislike of the Jews. I agree with him in that celebrating the Festivals without them centering on Yeshua IS WRONG. I am sure that he did not mean that Christians can not celebrate them.  Polycarp and the entire Eastern Church did, so are you saying that Chrysostom disavows those that came before him and what he bases his beliefs on?
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #67 on: April 19, 2013, 06:31:27 AM »
Who is your priest? I would love to meet him! Are you saying that ONLY Jews can use a prayer shall? Are you saying that a prayer shawl is somehow wrong with Orthodox prayer? Yes, it IS a spiritual object and should be used as such. No one said to play around with it...

I own a talit. I'd never even think of putting it on for prayer. It would be clownish to do so.

If you think and feel it would be "clownish" then by all means do not wear it! Why do you have one then?
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #68 on: April 19, 2013, 06:32:38 AM »
Judaising is a heresy. Let us remember that.

Define Judaising? 
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Romaios

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #69 on: April 19, 2013, 06:47:12 AM »
Chrysostom (...) obviously had a dislike of the Jews.

Wrong conclusion.

Offline Romaios

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2013, 06:49:49 AM »
Why do you have one then?

It's a souvenir from the Ghetto of Venice.

I find it equally clownish for an Orthodox to use Muslim prayer mats, incense sticks, Catholic rosaries or Buddhist prayer wheels. Nevertheless, some of these objects might have intrinsic esthetic qualities.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 06:59:17 AM by Romaios »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #71 on: April 19, 2013, 10:07:11 AM »
Judaising is a heresy. Let us remember that.

Indeed. Too bad it has gotten so popular as of late.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 10:10:32 AM by Cyrillic »
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #72 on: April 19, 2013, 10:08:57 AM »
Judaising is a heresy. Let us remember that.

Define Judaising? 

Judaising

Ju·da·ize  (jd-z)
v. Ju·da·ized, Ju·da·iz·ing, Ju·da·iz·es
v.tr.
To bring into conformity with Judaism.
v.intr.
To adopt Jewish customs and beliefs.
Juda·i·zation (--zshn) n.
Juda·izer n.
"My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees with me"
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Offline Thomas

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #73 on: April 19, 2013, 10:20:54 AM »
You could hang it over an icon. Tallitot look quite similar to the icon scarves used by Ukrainians.

A great idea, especially if you have an old testament saint or an icon of Christ, it would be a powerful witness I think to a Jewish person coming to your home to see it used in that fashion. I have a friend who is a converted jew who does just that and it speaks volumes of his piety to  jewish friends who come into his Orthodox Christian home.

Thomas
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Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #74 on: April 19, 2013, 11:29:26 AM »
Judaising is a heresy. Let us remember that.

Define Judaising? 

Judaising

Ju·da·ize  (jd-z)
v. Ju·da·ized, Ju·da·iz·ing, Ju·da·iz·es
v.tr.
To bring into conformity with Judaism.
v.intr.
To adopt Jewish customs and beliefs.
Juda·i·zation (--zshn) n.
Juda·izer n.

Christianity celebrates Jewish feasts...Pascha=Passover (it is actually Yom HaBikkarim), Pentecost =Shavuot.  Orthodoxy is an offshoot of Judaism! Accept your roots! Christianity can not exist without Judaism. I mean really, what is your point? You must have a different definition of Judaizing...
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2013, 11:32:33 AM »
Why do you have one then?

It's a souvenir from the Ghetto of Venice.

I find it equally clownish for an Orthodox to use Muslim prayer mats, incense sticks, Catholic rosaries or Buddhist prayer wheels. Nevertheless, some of these objects might have intrinsic esthetic qualities.

I see your point but I look at it differently.   I guess I see it as better to use it for what it is for rather than a piece of art. 
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #76 on: April 19, 2013, 11:36:06 AM »
You could hang it over an icon. Tallitot look quite similar to the icon scarves used by Ukrainians.

A great idea, especially if you have an old testament saint or an icon of Christ, it would be a powerful witness I think to a Jewish person coming to your home to see it used in that fashion. I have a friend who is a converted jew who does just that and it speaks volumes of his piety to  jewish friends who come into his Orthodox Christian home.

Thomas

How is that, Jews are not allowed images and here you wrap a tallit around it. I would think that would offend them. 
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #77 on: April 19, 2013, 11:42:09 AM »
Pascha=Passover

Jews celebrate the risen Christ?


Pentecost =Shavuot.

Jews celebrate the outpouring of the Holy Spirit?

Orthodoxy is an offshoot of Judaism! Accept your roots! Christianity can not exist without Judaism.

"It is monstrous to talk of Jesus Christ and to practise Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity"

- St. Ignatius of Antioch, around 100 AD.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 11:42:50 AM by Cyrillic »
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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2013, 11:44:02 AM »
Christianity celebrates Jewish feasts...Pascha=Passover (it is actually Yom HaBikkarim), Pentecost =Shavuot.  Orthodoxy is an offshoot of Judaism! Accept your roots! Christianity can not exist without Judaism. I mean really, what is your point? You must have a different definition of Judaizing...

Pascha (commemoration of the Resurrection of Christ) =/= Passover (commemoration of the liberation of Israel from Egypt).

And what roots are we talking about? I'm Greek - that's about as Gentile as it gets (even in Scripture). Are you saying that Gentiles can't be Christians? Please... the Apostles settled that long before 100CE.
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Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #79 on: April 19, 2013, 12:30:00 PM »
I'm certainly interested in what St. John Chrysostom has to say about this.
Uh oh.



He of the Golden Mouth is renowned for not mincing his words. Somehow I doubt he'd be coy about this matter.  :laugh:

During World War II, the Nazi Party in Germany used his work in an attempt to legitimize the Holocaust in the eyes of German and Austrian Christians. His works were frequently quoted and reprinted as a witness for the prosecution.
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #80 on: April 19, 2013, 12:36:07 PM »
Pascha (commemoration of the Resurrection of Christ) =/= Passover (commemoration of the liberation of Israel from Egypt).

And what roots are we talking about? I'm Greek - that's about as Gentile as it gets (even in Scripture). Are you saying that Gentiles can't be Christians? Please... the Apostles settled that long before 100CE.
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Why cant people here read what I write? Where did I say Gentiles cant be Christians????? Also, you are incorrect. The Orthodox Church celebrates Pascha on the Sunday after Passover. This equates with the Jewish Feast of First Fruits or Yom HaBikkarim...Jesus resurrection happened on that day..He is the FIRSTFRUITS among the dead. Passover would equate with Holy Thursday. Your post just proves my point...
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #81 on: April 19, 2013, 12:40:56 PM »
Pascha (commemoration of the Resurrection of Christ) =/= Passover (commemoration of the liberation of Israel from Egypt).

And what roots are we talking about? I'm Greek - that's about as Gentile as it gets (even in Scripture). Are you saying that Gentiles can't be Christians? Please... the Apostles settled that long before 100CE.

Why cant people here read what I write? Where did I say Gentiles cant be Christians????? Also, you are incorrect. The Orthodox Church celebrates Pascha on the Sunday after Passover. This equates with the Jewish Feast of First Fruits or Yom HaBikkarim...Jesus resurrection happened on that day..He is the FIRSTFRUITS among the dead. Passover would equate with Holy Thursday. Your post just proves my point...
[/quote]



The Orthodox Church celebrates Pascha on the first Sunday after the full moon of the spring equinox. It can actually be postponed to the next Sunday if it coincides with either Passover or Ramadan. My mother, who grew up in one of very few Greek towns with significant Jewish presence, clearly remembers Passover falling occasionally on Lazarus Saturday.

I have no Jewish roots and I need none, thank you very much. That was settled when the Apostles determined that one need not become a Jew (by circumcision) before becoming a Christian (by baptism).
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 12:41:25 PM by Arachne »
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Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #82 on: April 19, 2013, 12:43:23 PM »
Pascha=Passover

Jews celebrate the risen Christ?


Pentecost =Shavuot.

Jews celebrate the outpouring of the Holy Spirit?


Shavuot is the Feast of Weeks which is EXACTLY what The Orthodox church does at Pascha...counts the SAME time period to Pentecost as the Jews do to Shavuot. that is what Pentecost means in Greek. Stop being ignorant.
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #83 on: April 19, 2013, 12:48:30 PM »
Pascha (commemoration of the Resurrection of Christ) =/= Passover (commemoration of the liberation of Israel from Egypt).

And what roots are we talking about? I'm Greek - that's about as Gentile as it gets (even in Scripture). Are you saying that Gentiles can't be Christians? Please... the Apostles settled that long before 100CE.

Why cant people here read what I write? Where did I say Gentiles cant be Christians????? Also, you are incorrect. The Orthodox Church celebrates Pascha on the Sunday after Passover. This equates with the Jewish Feast of First Fruits or Yom HaBikkarim...Jesus resurrection happened on that day..He is the FIRSTFRUITS among the dead. Passover would equate with Holy Thursday. Your post just proves my point...



The Orthodox Church celebrates Pascha on the first Sunday after the full moon of the spring equinox. It can actually be postponed to the next Sunday if it coincides with either Passover or Ramadan. My mother, who grew up in one of very few Greek towns with significant Jewish presence, clearly remembers Passover falling occasionally on Lazarus Saturday.

I have no Jewish roots and I need none, thank you very much. That was settled when the Apostles determined that one need not become a Jew (by circumcision) before becoming a Christian (by baptism).
[/quote]

I see you do not or can not read my posts without your pre-conceived notions.  The Apostles were all JEWS who believe Yeshua was the Messiah. If you don't consider that as Jewish roots then I guess you really don't know much about Christianity. I NEVER said anyone needs to become a Jew...thanks you very much.  Read what I write instead of making up false arguments. Also, what would Ramadam have anything to do with the timing of Pascha?
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #84 on: April 19, 2013, 01:07:22 PM »
Shavuot is the Feast of Weeks which is EXACTLY what The Orthodox church does at Pascha...

Obviously, you don't know what the Orthodox Church does at Pascha.
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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #85 on: April 19, 2013, 01:09:01 PM »
I see you do not or can not read my posts without your pre-conceived notions.  The Apostles were all JEWS who believe Yeshua was the Messiah.

They remained ethnic Jews, of course, but were no longer considered proper religious Jews, judging by how often they were driven out of the synagogues where they preached. Are you familiar with the term αποσυνάγωγος?

If you don't consider that as Jewish roots then I guess you really don't know much about Christianity. I NEVER said anyone needs to become a Jew...thanks you very much.  Read what I write instead of making up false arguments.

You are blurring the lines between ethnicity and religion to support your point. And you actually sound like the fundie Neopagans who howl that zomgs, the evil Christians stole our holidays! They can't understand that different religious traditions can celebrate very different things at the same time of the year, or even with similar customs (as those are largely products of local culture), either.

Also, what would Ramadam have anything to do with the timing of Pascha?

To avoid confusion, scandal, and/or excuses for forceful intervention (as most traditionally Orthodox lands spent several centuries under Ottoman occupation), with a show of 'calculations are not exactly carved in stone' on the side.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 01:09:35 PM by Arachne »
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Offline Romaios

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #86 on: April 19, 2013, 01:21:00 PM »
I see you do not or can not read my posts without your pre-conceived notions.  The Apostles were all JEWS who believe Yeshua was the Messiah. If you don't consider that as Jewish roots then I guess you really don't know much about Christianity.

The Synaxaria of the Feasts of Our Lord explain their Jewish roots in great detail - for both Pascha and Pentecost.

I don't quite get your dissatisfaction with what the Orthodox Church teaches and its liturgical practice vis-a-vis its Jewish roots. Besides condemning antisemitism, which is rightfully disavowed by most contemporary Christians, I personally don't see what else could or should be done. What would your ideal Church (pre-100 AD Jewish "roots" restored) look like?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 01:23:23 PM by Romaios »

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #87 on: April 19, 2013, 01:29:10 PM »
Shavuot is the Feast of Weeks which is EXACTLY what The Orthodox church does at Pascha...

Obviously, you don't know what the Orthodox Church does at Pascha.

I do. At Pascha the church begins the count to Pentecost. You have a problem with that? In Judaism, the count begins on that same day, Yom HaBikkarim, the Feast of First Fruits...the count is the same to Shavuot...the Feast of Weeks.
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Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #88 on: April 19, 2013, 01:35:04 PM »
I see you do not or can not read my posts without your pre-conceived notions.  The Apostles were all JEWS who believe Yeshua was the Messiah. If you don't consider that as Jewish roots then I guess you really don't know much about Christianity.

The Synaxaria of the Feasts of Our Lord explain their Jewish roots in great detail - for both Pascha and Pentecost.

I don't quite get your dissatisfaction with what the Orthodox Church teaches and its liturgical practice vis-a-vis its Jewish roots. Besides condemning antisemitism, which is rightfully disavowed by most contemporary Christians, I personally don't see what else could or should be done. What would your ideal Church (pre-100 AD Jewish "roots" restored) look like?

Then why do you all call me not Orthodox and a judaizer? You just agreed with me! My dissatisfaction is because most in the Church act like all of you have to me...
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Romaios

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #89 on: April 19, 2013, 01:43:29 PM »
Then why do you all call me not Orthodox and a judaizer? You just agreed with me! My dissatisfaction is because most in the Church act like all of you have to me...

What privileges do you expect in the Church? We don't even know if you are an ethnic Jew or not (you declined to answer that one). If you are, it should be irrelevant once you are baptized. According to St. Paul, there is no more Jew or Gentile in Christ. The dividing wall is broken down by the Messiah, who made the two peoples one, reconciling them in his Body. Therefore, there are no longer any identity markers and boundaries that set apart Jews in the Church: no separate days of observance, no bodily marks, no dietary prescriptions.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 01:46:54 PM by Romaios »