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Author Topic: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...  (Read 7638 times) Average Rating: 0
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TheTrisagion
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« Reply #405 on: May 08, 2013, 02:16:44 PM »

I just mentioned this thread to an Orthodox Jewish co-worker, a Reformed Jewish co-worker, and a Gentile co-worker who is married to an Orthodox Jew.

Every single one of them said the exact same thing and it rhymes with the word, "pole."

He is a mole?

I knew he has a funny looking face!  Cool
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Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
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« Reply #406 on: May 08, 2013, 02:18:44 PM »

YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes

You speak of these feasts in the past tense. Does this mean you no longer observe or celebrate them? And what is the significance to you of calling them "extra-biblical"?

Strain at a gnat but swallow a camel! Well they ARE extrabiblical. They are traditional feasts made by the Church. Their dates do not correspond to any biblical feasts...that is all I mean. Quit trying to read in your preconceived notions...  Roll Eyes

What then of your referring to them in the past tense, as in "I have celebrated them"? Does this mean you no longer do?


*bump*

Any chance of an answer here?

 Roll Eyes What do you think?

It's not a matter of what I think. I'm asking you a question, in plain English.

Well I can't say "I AM celebrating" them since they are not being held today...sheeesh!  Roll Eyes

OK, then, let me rephrase the question to avoid semantic games: Do you observe/celebrate these feasts on their appointed days according to the Orthodox liturgical calendar? What about the feastdays of individual saints? Do you observe them as well?

Yes I have.  Individual Saint's days, not regularly, but not many do...unless it is their own personal Saint's name day.

Will you celebrate these feasts on their appointed days according to the Orthodox liturgical calendar in the future?

Oh come on now...this is getting silly... Roll Eyes

Since it took you a lot longer to type that out than a simple Yes or No, I'm going to assume the answer is No.


You can ASSume anything you want.

You could easily help me to not assume, but you choose not to and hide behind deliberate obfuscation and evasion, so I tell you, "Good day and God bless."
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Yeshua HaDerekh
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« Reply #407 on: May 08, 2013, 02:19:33 PM »

Let's just jump to the chase.

It appears to me that while you call yourself "Orthodox" you are not a member of any canonical Orthodox Church.

It appears to me that you are a Gentile who wishes to convert Jews ( by somehow mixing the two religions). Yet, there are  at least three Jews who have posted in this thread who are telling you, a Gentile, not to do that. The Orthodox Church and it's faithful are the new Israel and that Judaizing is a heresy.
 

I have already told you I AM A MEMBER. Why do I have to always keep repeating myself to you? Cant you read? Do you need glasses?  Roll Eyes

Because it is not believable that a Priest would allow you to pursue a heresy such as Judaizing.

What Orthodox jurisdiction do you belong to and how have they allowed you to continue in communion considering the idea's you have mentioned here?

You do know what insanity is...repeating the same mistake over and over expecting it to change.  laugh
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Yeshua HaDerekh
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« Reply #408 on: May 08, 2013, 02:20:28 PM »

YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?

I consider them extra-biblical feasts but yes I have celebrated them. Venerate icons...yes

You speak of these feasts in the past tense. Does this mean you no longer observe or celebrate them? And what is the significance to you of calling them "extra-biblical"?

Strain at a gnat but swallow a camel! Well they ARE extrabiblical. They are traditional feasts made by the Church. Their dates do not correspond to any biblical feasts...that is all I mean. Quit trying to read in your preconceived notions...  Roll Eyes

What then of your referring to them in the past tense, as in "I have celebrated them"? Does this mean you no longer do?


*bump*

Any chance of an answer here?

 Roll Eyes What do you think?

It's not a matter of what I think. I'm asking you a question, in plain English.

Well I can't say "I AM celebrating" them since they are not being held today...sheeesh!  Roll Eyes

OK, then, let me rephrase the question to avoid semantic games: Do you observe/celebrate these feasts on their appointed days according to the Orthodox liturgical calendar? What about the feastdays of individual saints? Do you observe them as well?

Yes I have.  Individual Saint's days, not regularly, but not many do...unless it is their own personal Saint's name day.

Will you celebrate these feasts on their appointed days according to the Orthodox liturgical calendar in the future?

Oh come on now...this is getting silly... Roll Eyes

Since it took you a lot longer to type that out than a simple Yes or No, I'm going to assume the answer is No.


You can ASSume anything you want.

You could easily help me to not assume, but you choose not to and hide behind deliberate obfuscation and evasion, so I tell you, "Good day and God bless."

No, I just find it silly to have to answer the same question 50 times.
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« Reply #409 on: May 08, 2013, 02:21:05 PM »

Calm down YOU ALL, return to the topic and start to behave like you are after kindergarten graduation or I'm locking it permanently and start to throw some dots.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 02:21:16 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #410 on: May 08, 2013, 02:23:28 PM »

Quote
Oh come on now...this is getting silly... 

It is only silly because your answers are so evasive. If you did not rely so much on twisting words around and just come out with a forthright comprehensive explanation of your beliefs, if they are blessed by your parish, and what holidays you are actually celebrating, it would eliminate the need for silly questions.
 


YES is being evasive? Bullet points are being evasive LOL?HuhHuh??
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« Reply #411 on: May 08, 2013, 02:24:19 PM »

Locking it for 24 hours to cooldown.
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« Reply #412 on: May 11, 2013, 09:30:59 AM »

Thread unlocked.

Mind my previous warning here. No childish jokes and scuffles.
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« Reply #413 on: June 14, 2013, 02:23:58 AM »

I would be interested in readers' reactions to St. Jerome's use of Jesus' comment on the prayer shawls. Matthew 23 records Jesus' comment about the pharisees:
  • 5. They make their phylacteries (boxes with Scripture verses) wide and the tassels on their garments long.
    6. they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
    7. they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.


Jesus didn't say that the tassels themselves were bad. The tassels were commanded to be worn in Deuteronomy 22:12 ("Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear.") Rather, Jesus focused on teaching humility, and he viewed the pharisees as having pride in a place of prominence.

I would like to ask people's views about St. Jerome's observation on this topic. He wrote in a letter to Brother Anthony about this: "Iudaicus populus primas sibi cathedras et salutationes in foro uindicans deputato antea in stillam situlae gentili populo succedente deletes est."

My best guess is that this says: "The gentile people, who were assigned previously to a drop in the bucket, succeeded the Jewish people, who claimed first place in the seats and greetings in the squares, and which is deleted."

The full passage in Jerome's letter runs as follows:
Quote
While the disciples were disputing concerning precedence our Lord, the teacher of humility, took a little child and said: “Except ye be converted and become as little children ye cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.” And lest He should seem to preach more than he practised, He fulfilled His own precept in His life. For He washed His disciples’ feet, he received the traitor with a kiss, He conversed with the woman of Samaria, He spoke of the kingdom of heaven with Mary at His feet, and when He rose again from the dead He showed Himself first to some poor women. Pride is opposed to humility, and through it Satan lost his eminence as an archangel.

The Jewish people perished in their pride, for while they claimed the chief seats and salutations in the market place, (Matthew 23:6-7) they were superseded by the Gentiles, who had before been counted as “a drop of a bucket.” (Isaiah 40:15) Two poor fishermen, Peter and James, were sent to confute the sophists and the wise men of the world. As the Scripture says: “God resisteth the proud and giveth grace to the humble.” Think, brother, what a sin it must be which has God for its opponent. In the Gospel the Pharisee is rejected because of his pride, and the publican is accepted because of his humility.
http://st-takla.org/books/en/ecf/206/2060023.html#fn_164

Another translation says:
Quote
For, while they claimed that they deserved the most important seats and greetings in the market place, the Gentiles, who used to be considered “a drop in a bucket,” dis­placed them.
http://www.ancientfuturefaithnetwork.org/chapel/jesus-humility
However, wouldn't you say that "succeed" is a much better translation for St. Jerome's word succedente, than supersede or displace?

In any case, let's get down to what St. Jerome meant.

St. Jerome learned Hebrew from Jewish Christians who he described in a positive way. He mentioned those who were still following Moses' laws, which would have included the tassels. And he translated the Old Testament from Hebrew, rather than use the Greek LXX. So he is not particularly prejudiced.

Further, the context of the passage seems to be that he is making practical observations about the results of pride. Besides that, he obviously cannot mean that the Jewish people "perished" or were "deleted" in a literal sense, because many of them were still around when he wrote. On a sidenote, I find the mention of a people being "deleted" confusing as it comes from Jerome who was sympathetic to Jewish Christians. Bishop Epiphanius came from a Jewish background and was St. Jerome's mentor.

In any case, doesn't St. Jerome mean that the gentile people have succeeded to the position formerly held by the Jewish people. Namely, while the lowly gentiles were previously assigned to be just a drop in God's spiritual community, they now generally fill the leading roles in the Church?


Drops of stars in God's bucket.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 02:47:05 AM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #414 on: June 14, 2013, 11:16:13 AM »

Perhaps one explanation for Jerome's words about the people as deleted is that it better translates as "is deleting"? In other words, St. Jerome observed that the people were declining at that point, not that within Christianity they had already been permanently deleted.
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« Reply #415 on: June 14, 2013, 01:48:02 PM »

You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.

Not confused at all. What I am confused about is why this is SO IMPORTANT to all of YOU? We are of the same faith yet it is YOU who are bothered by it...

We have no need of recognition of the old Jewish festivals, and we are commanded to NOT celebrate/observe them, as they are deficient and not in keeping with Orthodox belief and teaching. Pity you can't see this.

Pity it seems you don't understand Christianity let alone Orthodoxy. I have asked ANY of you to ask you priests about this.  ANY of the learned priests will agree with me. Pascha is a DIRECT fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim and Pentecost DIRECTLY fulfills Shavout. Do agree or not? If you agree then why do you continue to argue with me?


Yes Pascha is the fulfillment of Yom Habikkurim and Passover and Pentecost is the fullfilment of Shavout so as a Christian you should celebrate Pascha and Pentecost, not You Habikkurim, Passover, and Shavout(that is our point)
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« Reply #416 on: June 14, 2013, 01:51:07 PM »

Oh no, I thought this thread had finally died.  Sad
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« Reply #417 on: June 15, 2013, 03:26:51 AM »

Yeah, no kidding.  What is there to say about some person's mother giving them a gift they are not sure they want.  Not much.  Pretty soon it will be winter, and give it to the homeless.
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