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Author Topic: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...  (Read 7647 times) Average Rating: 0
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Yeshua HaDerekh
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« Reply #315 on: May 08, 2013, 07:05:45 AM »

You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.

Not confused at all. What I am confused about is why this is SO IMPORTANT to all of YOU? We are of the same faith yet it is YOU who are bothered by it...

We have no need of recognition of the old Jewish festivals, and we are commanded to NOT celebrate/observe them, as they are deficient and not in keeping with Orthodox belief and teaching. Pity you can't see this.

But we ARE whether you want to admit it or not! Pascha is a direct fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim...Pentecost was a direct fulfillment of Shavout...they were fulfilled on the EXACT day on the EXACT hour!
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« Reply #316 on: May 08, 2013, 07:07:02 AM »

It just seems that me BEING Orthodox is what is bothering everyone...

No.  What bothers me after reading this thread is that I really wish that you were Orthodox.

Well I am! No "wishing" involved!
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« Reply #317 on: May 08, 2013, 07:12:50 AM »

You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.

Not confused at all. What I am confused about is why this is SO IMPORTANT to all of YOU? We are of the same faith yet it is YOU who are bothered by it...

We have no need of recognition of the old Jewish festivals, and we are commanded to NOT celebrate/observe them, as they are deficient and not in keeping with Orthodox belief and teaching. Pity you can't see this.

Pity it seems you don't understand Christianity let alone Orthodoxy. I have asked ANY of you to ask you priests about this.  ANY of the learned priests will agree with me. Pascha is a DIRECT fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim and Pentecost DIRECTLY fulfills Shavout. Do agree or not? If you agree then why do you continue to argue with me?

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« Reply #318 on: May 08, 2013, 07:19:38 AM »

Yeah, I think Pentecost just popped out of thin air. Like a mighty rushing wind.

There's a reason we don't call it by the name of the Jewish festival of Shavuot.

It isn't Jewish.



Well I can see there is no reason to continue conversing with you after a statement like that  Shocked
Do you even know what Pentecost means? Shavout was the feast of weeks...you know, 50 days after Pascha (Yom Habikkurim)?
maybe you should read this to begin with: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Pentecost
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« Reply #319 on: May 08, 2013, 07:30:45 AM »

You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.

Not confused at all. What I am confused about is why this is SO IMPORTANT to all of YOU? We are of the same faith yet it is YOU who are bothered by it...

We have no need of recognition of the old Jewish festivals, and we are commanded to NOT celebrate/observe them, as they are deficient and not in keeping with Orthodox belief and teaching. Pity you can't see this.

Pity it seems you don't understand Christianity let alone Orthodoxy. I have asked ANY of you to ask you priests about this.  ANY of the learned priests will agree with me. Pascha is a DIRECT fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim and Pentecost DIRECTLY fulfills Shavout. Do agree or not? If you agree then why do you continue to argue with me?



I'll say it again: As Orthodox Christians, we have no need of commemorating any Jewish festival, and we are commanded NOT to observe them. They are simply types and shadows, deficient in expressing and proclaiming what the Church teaches and believes.

For someone to cling to the notion of recognizing these deficient festivals and observances in their devotions in any way is either misguided, or a wilful, individualistic act at odds with what the Church has decreed from the very beginning.
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Yeshua HaDerekh
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« Reply #320 on: May 08, 2013, 07:38:37 AM »

Israel became a nation on Shavout and so did we on Pentecost! It was on the EXACT same day! Jews who had gathered on this day to celebrate Shavout, became the founding members of the Orthodox Church. Also at this time there was a change in the family. While for the most part you had to be physically born to be a part of Israel, God's salvation would now become available to everyone, both Jew and Gentile. Those who believed became spiritually adopted into the family instead of being born into the family. They were "grafted in" through faith in the Jewish Messiah. You can read where the church was born at Shavout/Pentecost (Acts 2). Also read Hebrews 12:18-24.
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« Reply #321 on: May 08, 2013, 07:44:24 AM »

You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.

Not confused at all. What I am confused about is why this is SO IMPORTANT to all of YOU? We are of the same faith yet it is YOU who are bothered by it...

We have no need of recognition of the old Jewish festivals, and we are commanded to NOT celebrate/observe them, as they are deficient and not in keeping with Orthodox belief and teaching. Pity you can't see this.

Pity it seems you don't understand Christianity let alone Orthodoxy. I have asked ANY of you to ask you priests about this.  ANY of the learned priests will agree with me. Pascha is a DIRECT fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim and Pentecost DIRECTLY fulfills Shavout. Do agree or not? If you agree then why do you continue to argue with me?



I'll say it again: As Orthodox Christians, we have no need of commemorating any Jewish festival, and we are commanded NOT to observe them. They are simply types and shadows, deficient in expressing and proclaiming what the Church teaches and believes.

For someone to cling to the notion of recognizing these deficient festivals and observances in their devotions in any way is either misguided, or a wilful, individualistic act at odds with what the Church has decreed from the very beginning.

WE ARE commemorating a Jewish Feast... we call it Pentecost! Like I said Pentecost did not pop out of thin air! PLEASE go talk to your priest! You obviously do not understand where many of the Orthodox feasts came from OR you just like to argue with me  Kiss
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« Reply #322 on: May 08, 2013, 08:36:24 AM »

You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.

Not confused at all. What I am confused about is why this is SO IMPORTANT to all of YOU? We are of the same faith yet it is YOU who are bothered by it...

We have no need of recognition of the old Jewish festivals, and we are commanded to NOT celebrate/observe them, as they are deficient and not in keeping with Orthodox belief and teaching. Pity you can't see this.

Pity it seems you don't understand Christianity let alone Orthodoxy. I have asked ANY of you to ask you priests about this.  ANY of the learned priests will agree with me. Pascha is a DIRECT fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim and Pentecost DIRECTLY fulfills Shavout. Do agree or not? If you agree then why do you continue to argue with me?



I'll say it again: As Orthodox Christians, we have no need of commemorating any Jewish festival, and we are commanded NOT to observe them. They are simply types and shadows, deficient in expressing and proclaiming what the Church teaches and believes.

For someone to cling to the notion of recognizing these deficient festivals and observances in their devotions in any way is either misguided, or a wilful, individualistic act at odds with what the Church has decreed from the very beginning.

WE ARE commemorating a Jewish Feast... we call it Pentecost! Like I said Pentecost did not pop out of thin air! PLEASE go talk to your priest! You obviously do not understand where many of the Orthodox feasts came from OR you just like to argue with me  Kiss

No, we are not commemorating a Jewish feast at Pentecost! I do not need to speak to my priest, I am very familiar with the hymnography and iconography of the feast, both of which express the meaning, significance, and teachings of the feast. I can provide the service texts and icons of the feast to you if you like, as you seem quite unfamiliar with them in your zeal to cling to the old Jewish customs.

Orthodox Pentecost is one of the three Theophanic Orthodox feasts, where all three Persons of the Holy Trinity became manifest (the others being the Baptism of Christ and the Transfiguration of the Lord), and where the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples.

Where is the Trinitarian content of Shavuot? Where is the descent of the Holy Spirit in Shavuot?

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« Reply #323 on: May 08, 2013, 08:46:03 AM »

You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.

Not confused at all. What I am confused about is why this is SO IMPORTANT to all of YOU? We are of the same faith yet it is YOU who are bothered by it...

We have no need of recognition of the old Jewish festivals, and we are commanded to NOT celebrate/observe them, as they are deficient and not in keeping with Orthodox belief and teaching. Pity you can't see this.

Pity it seems you don't understand Christianity let alone Orthodoxy. I have asked ANY of you to ask you priests about this.  ANY of the learned priests will agree with me. Pascha is a DIRECT fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim and Pentecost DIRECTLY fulfills Shavout. Do agree or not? If you agree then why do you continue to argue with me?



I'll say it again: As Orthodox Christians, we have no need of commemorating any Jewish festival, and we are commanded NOT to observe them. They are simply types and shadows, deficient in expressing and proclaiming what the Church teaches and believes.

For someone to cling to the notion of recognizing these deficient festivals and observances in their devotions in any way is either misguided, or a wilful, individualistic act at odds with what the Church has decreed from the very beginning.

WE ARE commemorating a Jewish Feast... we call it Pentecost! Like I said Pentecost did not pop out of thin air! PLEASE go talk to your priest! You obviously do not understand where many of the Orthodox feasts came from OR you just like to argue with me  Kiss

No, we are not commemorating a Jewish feast at Pentecost! I do not need to speak to my priest, I am very familiar with the hymnography and iconography of the feast, both of which express the meaning, significance, and teachings of the feast. I can provide the service texts and icons of the feast to you if you like, as you seem quite unfamiliar with them in your zeal to cling to the old Jewish customs.

Orthodox Pentecost is one of the three Theophanic Orthodox feasts, where all three Persons of the Holy Trinity became manifest (the others being the Baptism of Christ and the Transfiguration of the Lord), and where the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples.

Where is the Trinitarian content of Shavuot? Where is the descent of the Holy Spirit in Shavuot?



Do you not understand the term fulfillment? PENTECOST fulfills SHAVOUT...
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« Reply #324 on: May 08, 2013, 08:52:58 AM »

If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?
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« Reply #325 on: May 08, 2013, 08:54:01 AM »

You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.

Not confused at all. What I am confused about is why this is SO IMPORTANT to all of YOU? We are of the same faith yet it is YOU who are bothered by it...

We have no need of recognition of the old Jewish festivals, and we are commanded to NOT celebrate/observe them, as they are deficient and not in keeping with Orthodox belief and teaching. Pity you can't see this.

Pity it seems you don't understand Christianity let alone Orthodoxy. I have asked ANY of you to ask you priests about this.  ANY of the learned priests will agree with me. Pascha is a DIRECT fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim and Pentecost DIRECTLY fulfills Shavout. Do agree or not? If you agree then why do you continue to argue with me?



I'll say it again: As Orthodox Christians, we have no need of commemorating any Jewish festival, and we are commanded NOT to observe them. They are simply types and shadows, deficient in expressing and proclaiming what the Church teaches and believes.

For someone to cling to the notion of recognizing these deficient festivals and observances in their devotions in any way is either misguided, or a wilful, individualistic act at odds with what the Church has decreed from the very beginning.

WE ARE commemorating a Jewish Feast... we call it Pentecost! Like I said Pentecost did not pop out of thin air! PLEASE go talk to your priest! You obviously do not understand where many of the Orthodox feasts came from OR you just like to argue with me  Kiss

No, we are not commemorating a Jewish feast at Pentecost! I do not need to speak to my priest, I am very familiar with the hymnography and iconography of the feast, both of which express the meaning, significance, and teachings of the feast. I can provide the service texts and icons of the feast to you if you like, as you seem quite unfamiliar with them in your zeal to cling to the old Jewish customs.

Orthodox Pentecost is one of the three Theophanic Orthodox feasts, where all three Persons of the Holy Trinity became manifest (the others being the Baptism of Christ and the Transfiguration of the Lord), and where the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples.

Where is the Trinitarian content of Shavuot? Where is the descent of the Holy Spirit in Shavuot?



Do you not understand the term fulfillment? PENTECOST fulfills SHAVOUT...

And therefore we have no need of Shavuot as Orthodox Christians! We have no need of the Jewish Passover, we have no need of circumcision, we have no need of kosher food laws, we have no need of any of the Jewish festivals you so doggedly cling to in your idiosyncratic take on Christianity.
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« Reply #326 on: May 08, 2013, 08:54:56 AM »

If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

We've been waiting for a coherent answer to these sorts of questions for some time now ...
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« Reply #327 on: May 08, 2013, 08:58:07 AM »

If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

It is the SAME thing, just now it is in the context of Yeshua and the Church. Did you know that at Shavout, Jews decorated the synagogue in green just as we do? It is calculated the same too. Both terms mean 50 or feast of weeks. Pentecost is just the Greek term for it. Pentecost is the old Greek and Latin name for the Jewish harvest festival, or Festival of Weeks...
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« Reply #328 on: May 08, 2013, 09:02:02 AM »

If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

We've been waiting for a coherent answer to these sorts of questions for some time now ...

I have been waiting for your coherent understanding! yeshua once said...I have not come to abolish the Law and the Prophets, but to FULFILL! I have said NOTHING different than that...
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« Reply #329 on: May 08, 2013, 09:02:56 AM »

If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

It is the SAME thing, just now it is in the context of Yeshua and the Church. Did you know that at Shavout, Jews decorated the synagogue in green just as we do? It is calculated the same too. Both terms mean 50 or feast of weeks. Pentecost is just the Greek term for it. Pentecost is the old Greek and Latin name for the Jewish harvest festival, or Festival of Weeks...

No it is most certainly NOT the same thing.  One is the expectation and the other is the fulfillment.  There were many prophecies of Christ.  Christ was the fulfillment of those prophecies.  That does not mean the prophecies are the Son of God.  While I enjoy all your interesting tidbits and anecdotes about Jewish festivals, that has nothing to do with anticipation versus fulfillment.
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« Reply #330 on: May 08, 2013, 09:03:36 AM »

If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

Are you serious???  Huh
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« Reply #331 on: May 08, 2013, 09:05:09 AM »

If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

Are you serious???  Huh

Yes, please see above regarding anticipation vs fulfillment. BIG difference.
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« Reply #332 on: May 08, 2013, 09:06:19 AM »

If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

Are you serious???  Huh

Yes, please see above regarding anticipation vs fulfillment. BIG difference.

And WHERE have I said otherwise?HuhHuh?
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« Reply #333 on: May 08, 2013, 09:09:55 AM »

If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

Are you serious???  Huh

Yes, please see above regarding anticipation vs fulfillment. BIG difference.

And WHERE have I said otherwise?HuhHuh?

In your insistence that the Jewish festivals are the same as the Orthodox feasts, such as here:

If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

It is the SAME thing, just now it is in the context of Yeshua and the Church. Did you know that at Shavout, Jews decorated the synagogue in green just as we do? It is calculated the same too. Both terms mean 50 or feast of weeks. Pentecost is just the Greek term for it. Pentecost is the old Greek and Latin name for the Jewish harvest festival, or Festival of Weeks...
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« Reply #334 on: May 08, 2013, 09:10:14 AM »

If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

Are you serious???  Huh

Yes, please see above regarding anticipation vs fulfillment. BIG difference.

And WHERE have I said otherwise?HuhHuh?

Quote
It is the SAME thing, just now it is in the context of Yeshua and the Church.

Perhaps there is a difference in language here, but usually in English, same and different mean two opposite things.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #335 on: May 08, 2013, 09:14:45 AM »

1. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law
    Jesus is not SAME as the Law

2. Pentecost is the fulfillment of Shavout
    Pentecost is not SAME as Shavout

3. Pascha is a fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim
    Pascha is not SAME as Yom HaBikkurim
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« Reply #336 on: May 08, 2013, 09:16:22 AM »

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, Pentecost is one of the Orthodox Great Feasts and is considered to be the highest ranking Great Feast of the Lord, second in rank only to Pascha.  Orthodox temples are often decorated with greenery and flowers on this feast day, and the celebration is intentionally similar to the Jewish holiday of Shavuot, which celebrates the giving of the Mosaic Law. The Apostles were gathered together for Shavout. Hellenistic Jews gave it the name Pentecost (πεντηκοστή, "fiftieth day").


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« Reply #337 on: May 08, 2013, 09:18:43 AM »

1. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law
    Jesus is not SAME as the Law

2. Pentecost is the fulfillment of Shavout
    Pentecost is not SAME as Shavout

3. Pascha is a fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim
    Pascha is not SAME as Yom HaBikkurim

On THE EXACT SAME DAY OF THE JEWISH FEASTS! I have never said anything differently than that!
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« Reply #338 on: May 08, 2013, 09:19:35 AM »

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, Pentecost is one of the Orthodox Great Feasts and is considered to be the highest ranking Great Feast of the Lord, second in rank only to Pascha.  Orthodox temples are often decorated with greenery and flowers on this feast day, and the celebration is intentionally similar to the Jewish holiday of Shavuot, which celebrates the giving of the Mosaic Law. The Apostles were gathered together for Shavout. Hellenistic Jews gave it the name Pentecost (πεντηκοστή, "fiftieth day").

How temples and synogouges are decorated have NOTHING to do with whether the holidays are the same or not.  Of course they were gathered for Shavout, we aren't denying that.  We are saying that Shavout was then fulfilled with something greater that we call Pentecost and the attempt to equate Shavout with Pentecost is a logical fallacy.
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« Reply #339 on: May 08, 2013, 09:22:55 AM »

1. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law
    Jesus is not SAME as the Law

2. Pentecost is the fulfillment of Shavout
    Pentecost is not SAME as Shavout

3. Pascha is a fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim
    Pascha is not SAME as Yom HaBikkurim

On THE EXACT SAME DAY OF THE JEWISH FEASTS! I have never said anything differently than that!


Quote
It is the SAME thing, just now it is in the context of Yeshua and the Church.

I refer you again to your quote. You did, you said it was the same thing, not just the same day. 
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« Reply #340 on: May 08, 2013, 09:24:09 AM »

If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

I tried asking him similar things. I never did get a direct response, other than that we were supposedly commanded to keep the Jewish feasts. I never could figure out why we would want to celebrate a feast that was expecting, and lacking as opposed to the Feast that is on the same day, and that fulfilled the old feast.

I'm not sure about those Orthodox under the JP but do they use different words for the feasts we celebrate? Do they use the original Hebrew words or do they use similar words that the rest of us use? I think seeing or knowing the terms that those under the JP use would probably help to show that we no longer celebrate the Jewish feasts, but fulfilled feasts.

I mean surely those there in Jerusalem would know and understand the Jewish practices better than we would, after all the JP stems from St. James.
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« Reply #341 on: May 08, 2013, 09:26:13 AM »

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, Pentecost is one of the Orthodox Great Feasts and is considered to be the highest ranking Great Feast of the Lord, second in rank only to Pascha.  Orthodox temples are often decorated with greenery and flowers on this feast day, and the celebration is intentionally similar to the Jewish holiday of Shavuot, which celebrates the giving of the Mosaic Law. The Apostles were gathered together for Shavout. Hellenistic Jews gave it the name Pentecost (πεντηκοστή, "fiftieth day").

How temples and synogouges are decorated have NOTHING to do with whether the holidays are the same or not.  Of course they were gathered for Shavout, we aren't denying that.  We are saying that Shavout was then fulfilled with something greater that we call Pentecost and the attempt to equate Shavout with Pentecost is a logical fallacy.

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #342 on: May 08, 2013, 09:28:29 AM »

If Pentecost fulfills Shavout, then why are you celebrating Shavout?

I tried asking him similar things. I never did get a direct response, other than that we were supposedly commanded to keep the Jewish feasts. I never could figure out why we would want to celebrate a feast that was expecting, and lacking as opposed to the Feast that is on the same day, and that fulfilled the old feast.

I'm not sure about those Orthodox under the JP but do they use different words for the feasts we celebrate? Do they use the original Hebrew words or do they use similar words that the rest of us use? I think seeing or knowing the terms that those under the JP use would probably help to show that we no longer celebrate the Jewish feasts, but fulfilled feasts.

I mean surely those there in Jerusalem would know and understand the Jewish practices better than we would, after all the JP stems from St. James.

Did I just talk to a wall? You all keep repeating what I just said and then telling me I am wrong LOL!
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« Reply #343 on: May 08, 2013, 09:28:42 AM »

Perhaps if you would like to state 2 or 3 clear premises and your conclusion, we can examine them to see if we might understand better.  

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« Reply #344 on: May 08, 2013, 09:33:38 AM »


On THE EXACT SAME DAY OF THE JEWISH FEASTS! I have never said anything differently than that!

Orthodox Pentecost is fifty days after the Resurrection. Shavuot is fifty days after Passover. The Orthodox NEVER celebrate the Resurrection on the same day as the Jewish Passover, so your reckoning is well and truly out.  police
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« Reply #345 on: May 08, 2013, 09:34:34 AM »

Perhaps if you would like to state 2 or 3 clear premises and your conclusion, we can examine them to see if we might understand better.  

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I thought I did already!

Holy Thursday/Good Friday is the fulfillment of Passover NISAN 14.
PASCHA is the fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim Nisan 16
Pentecost (the Hellenistic JEWISH word for the Hebrew "Shavout") is the fulfillment of Shavout 50 days after Yom HaBikkurim (Pascha) as it states in the Scriptures. The feasts are on the SAME days, are calculated the SAME way by the Church and are fulfilld by Yeshua.
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« Reply #346 on: May 08, 2013, 09:38:45 AM »

Perhaps if you would like to state 2 or 3 clear premises and your conclusion, we can examine them to see if we might understand better.  

Bullet points work for me.  My brain isn't as good as it used to be.  Kiss

I thought I did already!

Holy Thursday/Good Friday is the fulfillment of Passover NISAN 14.
PASCHA is the fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim Nisan 16
Pentecost (the Hellenistic JEWISH word for the Hebrew "Shavout") is the fulfillment of Shavout 50 days after Yom HaBikkurim (Pascha) as it states in the Scriptures. The feasts are on the SAME days, are calculated the SAME way by the Church and are fulfilld by Yeshua.

OK, I agree with all those premises.  So since we agree on those and you have agreed that fulfillment is not the same as anticipation, we agree that we should celebrate Holy Thursday/Good Friday, Pascha & Pentecost rather than the Jewish holidays because we want to celebrate the fulfillment, not the anticipation any longer.  Correct?
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« Reply #347 on: May 08, 2013, 09:43:47 AM »


On THE EXACT SAME DAY OF THE JEWISH FEASTS! I have never said anything differently than that!

Orthodox Pentecost is fifty days after the Resurrection. Shavuot is fifty days after Passover. The Orthodox NEVER celebrate the Resurrection on the same day as the Jewish Passover, so your reckoning is well and truly out.  police

No it is NOT. That is how Jews observe it TODAY. This is a flaw in rabbinical Judaism of today. Shavout was to be originally observed ALWAYS on a SUNDAY (the day after the Sabbath).  The counting of the Omer was to occur on the day after the first Sabbath of passover. A SUNDAY. Karite Jews still hold to the orginal.  Lev 23:15-16
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« Reply #348 on: May 08, 2013, 09:48:45 AM »

Perhaps if you would like to state 2 or 3 clear premises and your conclusion, we can examine them to see if we might understand better.  

Bullet points work for me.  My brain isn't as good as it used to be.  Kiss

I thought I did already!

Holy Thursday/Good Friday is the fulfillment of Passover NISAN 14.
PASCHA is the fulfillment of Yom HaBikkurim Nisan 16
Pentecost (the Hellenistic JEWISH word for the Hebrew "Shavout") is the fulfillment of Shavout 50 days after Yom HaBikkurim (Pascha) as it states in the Scriptures. The feasts are on the SAME days, are calculated the SAME way by the Church and are fulfilld by Yeshua.

OK, I agree with all those premises.  So since we agree on those and you have agreed that fulfillment is not the same as anticipation, we agree that we should celebrate Holy Thursday/Good Friday, Pascha & Pentecost rather than the Jewish holidays because we want to celebrate the fulfillment, not the anticipation any longer.  Correct?

Of course! But to fully UNDERSTAND them, it is better within the original Jewish context of where they came from.  Orthodoxy came directly from the  Judaism of Yeshua and his messianic Apostles. It is really not a new "religion" but a continuance of it in the correct way...
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« Reply #349 on: May 08, 2013, 09:54:16 AM »

The Apostles did not try to convert people to Judaism. Otherwise St. Paul would never have bothered to rebuke St. Peter to his face, or write all those letters about how to convert the Gentiles.
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« Reply #350 on: May 08, 2013, 09:58:21 AM »

The Apostles did not try to convert people to Judaism. Otherwise St. Paul would never have bothered to rebuke St. Peter to his face, or write all those letters about how to convert the Gentiles.

Neither am I since I am an Orthodox Christian.  I would like to convert Jews to Orthodoxy but from the reception here I think the Messianics are doing a much better job at it...

Biro, you have continually tried, whether on purpose or not, to twist my words and meanings and have been a thorn in my side. It is quite obvious you have much to learn and I will continue to pray for you.
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« Reply #351 on: May 08, 2013, 10:08:44 AM »

Quote
Of course! But to fully UNDERSTAND them, it is better within the original Jewish context of where they came from.  Orthodoxy came directly from the  Judaism of Yeshua and his messianic Apostles. It is really not a new "religion" but a continuance of it in the correct way...

Why is celebrating the feasts in the manner of their pre-Messianic form be better than celebrating them in their post-Messiah, fulfilled form?  That seems to make no sense to me...
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« Reply #352 on: May 08, 2013, 10:09:58 AM »

The Apostles did not try to convert people to Judaism. Otherwise St. Paul would never have bothered to rebuke St. Peter to his face, or write all those letters about how to convert the Gentiles.

Neither am I since I am an Orthodox Christian.  I would like to convert Jews to Orthodoxy but from the reception here I think the Messianics are doing a much better job at it...

As if Messianics (sp?) are bringing anyone to Christianity. They bring Christians and others to Judaism.
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« Reply #353 on: May 08, 2013, 10:11:10 AM »

Quote
Of course! But to fully UNDERSTAND them, it is better within the original Jewish context of where they came from.  Orthodoxy came directly from the  Judaism of Yeshua and his messianic Apostles. It is really not a new "religion" but a continuance of it in the correct way...

Why is celebrating the feasts in the manner of their pre-Messianic form be better than celebrating them in their post-Messiah, fulfilled form?  That seems to make no sense to me...

Exactly. Unfortunately, our Judaizing friend can't, or won't, see it.
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« Reply #354 on: May 08, 2013, 10:16:09 AM »

YeshuaHaDerekh, do you observe/celebrate the feasts of Theophany (Baptism of Christ), the Nativity of the Mother of God, the Dormition of the Mother of God, and the Exaltation of the Cross? What is your view of these feasts?

Also, do you venerate icons?
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« Reply #355 on: May 08, 2013, 10:20:15 AM »

The Apostles did not try to convert people to Judaism. Otherwise St. Paul would never have bothered to rebuke St. Peter to his face, or write all those letters about how to convert the Gentiles.

Neither am I since I am an Orthodox Christian.  I would like to convert Jews to Orthodoxy but from the reception here I think the Messianics are doing a much better job at it...

As if Messianics (sp?) are bringing anyone to Christianity. They bring Christians and others to Judaism.

TRUE STATEMENT
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« Reply #356 on: May 08, 2013, 10:27:39 AM »

It's one thing to have Jewish cultural practices, such as, perhaps, use of the Hebrew language. It's another to have Messianic Jewish, i.e. Protestant Christian practices such as saying you are part of a mysterious 'pre-100 A.D.' Orthodoxy, and continuing to practice Jewish, not Christian, festivals. No Christian I know of, whether of Jewish ancestry or otherwise, builds a booth outside their house for Sukkot, for instance. That's just Jewish. No one refers to the Jewish months. No one denies that Judaizing is a heresy. There's no way a church under the Ecumenical Patriarchate - such as the Greek Orthodox Church in the U.S., for instance- would do this kind of thing. Whether YHD grabbed the EP's name out of a hat just to cover his caboose, or just 'thinks' of himself as Orthodox because he lives near an Orthodox Church, is anyone's guess. But there is a difference between a Messianic Jew and an Orthodox Christian. A Messianic Jew is a Protestant. Like it or not, that is a fact. An Orthodox Christian is not a Protestant. If personal culture is so important, can I come to church in my old high school gym uniform?

There must be a reason you continually bring up things I never said. Either you are a moron, or you just want to continue bearing false witness. Which is it? I guess you have never read the OT? Never heard any of this in Church have you? The month of nisan? I do not need to prove anything to YOU. You keep saying I continue to practice Jewish festivals...that would make me a practicing Jew. I have already told you that I follow Yeshua. I mean do you think Pascha and Pentecost popped out of thin air? They are fulfillments OF THE JEWISH FESTIVALS! How many times must I repeat this to you?

Question. Are you a Jew by ancestry? In other words, is your Mother a Jew?
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« Reply #357 on: May 08, 2013, 10:30:41 AM »

The Apostles did not try to convert people to Judaism. Otherwise St. Paul would never have bothered to rebuke St. Peter to his face, or write all those letters about how to convert the Gentiles.

Neither am I since I am an Orthodox Christian.  I would like to convert Jews to Orthodoxy but from the reception here I think the Messianics are doing a much better job at it...

Biro, you have continually tried, whether on purpose or not, to twist my words and meanings and have been a thorn in my side. It is quite obvious you have much to learn and I will continue to pray for you.

I doubt you are really an Orthodox Christian in the sense that you belong to a canonical jurisdiction that is in communion with the others.

Oh and there are several people here who are Jews. Are you?
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« Reply #358 on: May 08, 2013, 10:41:41 AM »

Since this is no longer about what to do with a prayer shawl, I figured one of the Mod's would've stepped long ago.
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« Reply #359 on: May 08, 2013, 10:44:27 AM »

The Apostles did not try to convert people to Judaism. Otherwise St. Paul would never have bothered to rebuke St. Peter to his face, or write all those letters about how to convert the Gentiles.

Neither am I since I am an Orthodox Christian.  I would like to convert Jews to Orthodoxy but from the reception here I think the Messianics are doing a much better job at it...

Biro, you have continually tried, whether on purpose or not, to twist my words and meanings and have been a thorn in my side. It is quite obvious you have much to learn and I will continue to pray for you.

I doubt you are really an Orthodox Christian in the sense that you belong to a canonical jurisdiction that is in communion with the others.


Doubt all you want!
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