Author Topic: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...  (Read 9735 times)

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Offline Marc1152

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #270 on: May 07, 2013, 01:07:17 PM »
 
You seem to mention that you think people are miss reading you. Yet, you obfuscate when asked directly like in the post above .

I read back and saw that you recommend Jewish practices. This is from post 21 concerning Jewish Pray shawls.

"Wear it while you pray. Jesus and all the apostles did! :-)"

If I get more time I can re post more of the same that has led people to consider you a Judaizer. But it may be best to just answer the question that was put before you about what you mean by pre 100 AD Orthodox.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 01:10:23 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #271 on: May 07, 2013, 01:08:02 PM »
Dear Yeshua HaDerekh,

I'm curious to understand the response you are eliciting here.  While you seem to imply it's all their fault, I wonder if they might be legitimately alarmed by something I can only guess at?  I'm not as informed about many things here as others.  You will help us (and me in particular) if you would explain to us what you mean by self-identifying your faith as "Eastern Orthodox pre 100AD" and what your opinion is about the faith of the "Eastern Orthodox post 100AD" ?   Perhaps we could understand you better if you clarified these two (related) points in your own words ...

There really is nothing to clarify. Understanding and identifying with the Church within the original Judaic context.  I dont have any problems with the Church post 100AD.
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #272 on: May 07, 2013, 01:12:54 PM »
Dear Yeshua HaDerekh,

I'm curious to understand the response you are eliciting here.  While you seem to imply it's all their fault, I wonder if they might be legitimately alarmed by something I can only guess at?  I'm not as informed about many things here as others.  You will help us (and me in particular) if you would explain to us what you mean by self-identifying your faith as "Eastern Orthodox pre 100AD" and what your opinion is about the faith of the "Eastern Orthodox post 100AD" ?   Perhaps we could understand you better if you clarified these two (related) points in your own words ...

There really is nothing to clarify. Understanding and identifying with the Church within the original Judaic context.  I dont have any problems with the Church post 100AD.

Understanding the Jewish Roots of many Christian practices is a fine endeavor. Praticing Jewish rituals that have been specifically done away with by The Church is another. That is called Judaizing and if you promote it then you do indeed have a big problem The Church no matter what you say,
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #273 on: May 07, 2013, 01:13:25 PM »
Judaizing + condemnation of the Church as a heresy = false idea

LOL, really? Looks like the only idea here that is false is YOURS! You are good at accusing yet offer no proof = false witness.

I am not a Protestant. We dont engage is scriptural spitting matches between individuals.. We refer to the authority of the Chruch itself which has been more than clear that Judaizing is a pernicious heresy. Therefore, it is a false teaching without doubt and leads to perdition.

 

I will stop "judaising" when you stop being an Arian.  Remember when someone asks.."have you stopped beating your wife yet"? Same thing you are trying to do to me. Why not just ask me..."have you stopped Judaizing yet"? LOL

Well now you are just shooting consistently think people are miss reading you. Yet you obfiscate and when asked directly like in the post above and you also recomend Jewish practices. Here is from post 21 concering Jewish Pray shawls.

"Wear it while you pray.  Jesus and all the apostles did! :-)"

If I get more time I can repost more of the same that has led people to consider you a Judaizer. But it may be best to just answer the question that was  put before you about what you mean by pre 100 AD Orthodox.

And your point is what, that no Orthodox Christian ever wore a prayer shawl? Just because the custom now is not to, does not mean one cant...see, you do not seem to understand the original meaning of "judaizing" and the context it was written in. If I were you, I would go back and read it again (trying to understand the CONTEXT it was written in).
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #274 on: May 07, 2013, 01:17:02 PM »
Dear Yeshua HaDerekh,

I'm curious to understand the response you are eliciting here.  While you seem to imply it's all their fault, I wonder if they might be legitimately alarmed by something I can only guess at?  I'm not as informed about many things here as others.  You will help us (and me in particular) if you would explain to us what you mean by self-identifying your faith as "Eastern Orthodox pre 100AD" and what your opinion is about the faith of the "Eastern Orthodox post 100AD" ?   Perhaps we could understand you better if you clarified these two (related) points in your own words ...

There really is nothing to clarify. Understanding and identifying with the Church within the original Judaic context.  I dont have any problems with the Church post 100AD.

Understanding the Jewish Roots of many Christian practices is a fine endeavor. Praticing Jewish rituals that have been specifically done away with by The Church is another. That is called Judaizing and if you promote it then you do indeed have a big problem The Church no matter what you say,

I guess maybe you should look at it another way. Russian orthodox have their customs, Greek orthodox have theirs and the Copts have theirs. What Jewish rituals am I practicing. Since I believe Yeshua is The messiah, I really cant unless I practice them while NOT believing He is the Messiah...but then I would be a Jew...
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #275 on: May 07, 2013, 01:21:47 PM »
The part that I get confused at is the Russians have their customs because they are directed by the Patriarch and an unbroken line of tradition, same with the Greeks, Copts, etc.

Has the Ecumenical Patriarch that you state you are under directed your customs?  Has their been an unbroken line of this tradition or is it something you picked up because you think it is authentic?  I would think that if there was some unbroken line of tradition, others in the Church would have heard about it before you notified us of it.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 01:22:17 PM by TheTrisagion »
Quote from: Mor Ephrem
Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #276 on: May 07, 2013, 01:29:18 PM »
The part that I get confused at is the Russians have their customs because they are directed by the Patriarch and an unbroken line of tradition, same with the Greeks, Copts, etc.

Has the Ecumenical Patriarch that you state you are under directed your customs?  Has their been an unbroken line of this tradition or is it something you picked up because you think it is authentic?  I would think that if there was some unbroken line of tradition, others in the Church would have heard about it before you notified us of it.

Are you kidding me? James was the head of the Church in Jerusalem.  You think that the Russians and Greeks and Copts had no customs infiltrate unless some Patriarch directed them to? It was the other way around...a Patriarch ACCEPTED them. you see that is one of the main difference between the EO and the RC. The EO ADOPT customs and languages of the indigenous peoples, while the RC force their own latin customs/language on them. 
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 01:31:24 PM by Yeshua HaDerekh »
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #277 on: May 07, 2013, 01:39:51 PM »
So are we now in the same situation...the Jews would not accept Jewish Christians because they believed that Yeshua was the Moshiach and the Gentile Christians would not accept the original Jewish Christians because they were Jews?  ::)
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #278 on: May 07, 2013, 01:48:39 PM »
I know that James was the Bishop of Jerusalem, but that doesn't mean there is a line of tradition from him to you.  I get the impression that that there were some Jewish Christians in the early Church that practiced Jewish customs, that practices died out and now 2000 years later, you are attempting to resurrect it.

I said Patriarchs AND unbroken tradition meaning BOTH.

I don't see how we are in the same situation.  You have never even admitted to being Jewish.  It's not like you are being cast aside because of your heritage.  For all I know, you are some American kid who saw some cool Jewish customs on Youtube and decided to incorporate them into your worship.  I haven't condemned you or called you a heretic, because what you decide to do doesn't really bother me, but I am kinda interested in your mindset (other than the persecution complex you seem to have)  ::)
Quote from: Mor Ephrem
Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #279 on: May 07, 2013, 01:59:51 PM »
I know that James was the Bishop of Jerusalem, but that doesn't mean there is a line of tradition from him to you.  I get the impression that that there were some Jewish Christians in the early Church that practiced Jewish customs, that practices died out and now 2000 years later, you are attempting to resurrect it.

I said Patriarchs AND unbroken tradition meaning BOTH.

I don't see how we are in the same situation.  You have never even admitted to being Jewish.  It's not like you are being cast aside because of your heritage.  For all I know, you are some American kid who saw some cool Jewish customs on Youtube and decided to incorporate them into your worship.  I haven't condemned you or called you a heretic, because what you decide to do doesn't really bother me, but I am kinda interested in your mindset (other than the persecution complex you seem to have)  ::)

Hmmm...many of you are Irish, German, ect...yet you all go to RUSSIAN Orthodox Churches or GREEK orthodox Churches AND you adopt their customs. Maybe read this:

http://www.st-benedict.org/Articles/Jewish_roots.htm
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #280 on: May 07, 2013, 02:09:56 PM »
I know that James was the Bishop of Jerusalem, but that doesn't mean there is a line of tradition from him to you.  I get the impression that that there were some Jewish Christians in the early Church that practiced Jewish customs, that practices died out and now 2000 years later, you are attempting to resurrect it.

I said Patriarchs AND unbroken tradition meaning BOTH.

I don't see how we are in the same situation.  You have never even admitted to being Jewish.  It's not like you are being cast aside because of your heritage.  For all I know, you are some American kid who saw some cool Jewish customs on Youtube and decided to incorporate them into your worship.  I haven't condemned you or called you a heretic, because what you decide to do doesn't really bother me, but I am kinda interested in your mindset (other than the persecution complex you seem to have)  ::)

Hmmm...many of you are Irish, German, ect...yet you all go to RUSSIAN Orthodox Churches or GREEK orthodox Churches AND you adopt their customs. Maybe read this:

http://www.st-benedict.org/Articles/Jewish_roots.htm

We do, but that is not ideal.  Most in the US, I believe, would like us to have an American Orthodox Church. It is only because of immigration that we have the confusion that we do.  I don't see a reason to add "Jewish" Orthodox into the mix.
Quote from: Mor Ephrem
Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 

Offline Schultz

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #281 on: May 07, 2013, 02:13:15 PM »
I know that James was the Bishop of Jerusalem, but that doesn't mean there is a line of tradition from him to you.  I get the impression that that there were some Jewish Christians in the early Church that practiced Jewish customs, that practices died out and now 2000 years later, you are attempting to resurrect it.

I said Patriarchs AND unbroken tradition meaning BOTH.

I don't see how we are in the same situation.  You have never even admitted to being Jewish.  It's not like you are being cast aside because of your heritage.  For all I know, you are some American kid who saw some cool Jewish customs on Youtube and decided to incorporate them into your worship.  I haven't condemned you or called you a heretic, because what you decide to do doesn't really bother me, but I am kinda interested in your mindset (other than the persecution complex you seem to have)  ::)

Hmmm...many of you are Irish, German, ect...yet you all go to RUSSIAN Orthodox Churches or GREEK orthodox Churches AND you adopt their customs. Maybe read this:

http://www.st-benedict.org/Articles/Jewish_roots.htm

No, I don't.  In church, maybe.  But at home, my wife and I still do the German, Polish, and Italian customs we grew up doing.
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #282 on: May 07, 2013, 02:24:50 PM »
I know that James was the Bishop of Jerusalem, but that doesn't mean there is a line of tradition from him to you.  I get the impression that that there were some Jewish Christians in the early Church that practiced Jewish customs, that practices died out and now 2000 years later, you are attempting to resurrect it.

I said Patriarchs AND unbroken tradition meaning BOTH.

I don't see how we are in the same situation.  You have never even admitted to being Jewish.  It's not like you are being cast aside because of your heritage.  For all I know, you are some American kid who saw some cool Jewish customs on Youtube and decided to incorporate them into your worship.  I haven't condemned you or called you a heretic, because what you decide to do doesn't really bother me, but I am kinda interested in your mindset (other than the persecution complex you seem to have)  ::)

Hmmm...many of you are Irish, German, ect...yet you all go to RUSSIAN Orthodox Churches or GREEK orthodox Churches AND you adopt their customs. Maybe read this:

http://www.st-benedict.org/Articles/Jewish_roots.htm

No, I don't.  In church, maybe.  But at home, my wife and I still do the German, Polish, and Italian customs we grew up doing.

tHERE YA GO!  :)
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #283 on: May 07, 2013, 02:26:33 PM »
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #284 on: May 07, 2013, 02:28:08 PM »
I know that James was the Bishop of Jerusalem, but that doesn't mean there is a line of tradition from him to you.  I get the impression that that there were some Jewish Christians in the early Church that practiced Jewish customs, that practices died out and now 2000 years later, you are attempting to resurrect it.

I said Patriarchs AND unbroken tradition meaning BOTH.

I don't see how we are in the same situation.  You have never even admitted to being Jewish.  It's not like you are being cast aside because of your heritage.  For all I know, you are some American kid who saw some cool Jewish customs on Youtube and decided to incorporate them into your worship.  I haven't condemned you or called you a heretic, because what you decide to do doesn't really bother me, but I am kinda interested in your mindset (other than the persecution complex you seem to have)  ::)

Hmmm...many of you are Irish, German, ect...yet you all go to RUSSIAN Orthodox Churches or GREEK orthodox Churches AND you adopt their customs. Maybe read this:

http://www.st-benedict.org/Articles/Jewish_roots.htm

We do, but that is not ideal.  Most in the US, I believe, would like us to have an American Orthodox Church. It is only because of immigration that we have the confusion that we do.  I don't see a reason to add "Jewish" Orthodox into the mix.

That was what the OCA was suppossed to be...
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #285 on: May 07, 2013, 02:32:13 PM »
I know that James was the Bishop of Jerusalem, but that doesn't mean there is a line of tradition from him to you.  I get the impression that that there were some Jewish Christians in the early Church that practiced Jewish customs, that practices died out and now 2000 years later, you are attempting to resurrect it.

I said Patriarchs AND unbroken tradition meaning BOTH.

I don't see how we are in the same situation.  You have never even admitted to being Jewish.  It's not like you are being cast aside because of your heritage.  For all I know, you are some American kid who saw some cool Jewish customs on Youtube and decided to incorporate them into your worship.  I haven't condemned you or called you a heretic, because what you decide to do doesn't really bother me, but I am kinda interested in your mindset (other than the persecution complex you seem to have)  ::)

Hmmm...many of you are Irish, German, ect...yet you all go to RUSSIAN Orthodox Churches or GREEK orthodox Churches AND you adopt their customs. Maybe read this:

http://www.st-benedict.org/Articles/Jewish_roots.htm

No, I don't.  In church, maybe.  But at home, my wife and I still do the German, Polish, and Italian customs we grew up doing.

tHERE YA GO!  :)

1. I don't see how this answers any questions.
2. I don't know of any parishes that practice what you practice including the parish that you linked to.

Which brings us back to the original question, what unbroken line of tradition are you following besides your own?
Quote from: Mor Ephrem
Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 

Offline Marc1152

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #286 on: May 07, 2013, 02:33:44 PM »
You recommended that a non-Jew wear a pray shawl. You have managed to commit sacrilege in two different religions concurrently.. Good Work  :)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 02:34:27 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline rakovsky

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #287 on: May 07, 2013, 02:34:01 PM »
According to the prophet Zechariah, in the messianic era Sukkot will become a universal festival and all Nations will make pilgrimages annually to Jerusalem...
What do you think about John 4:

21. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

23. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Y.HaDereKh,

Why do you think Jesus contrasts worshipping in Jerusalem with worshipping in spirit?

And don't you think Jesus' contrast of the two forms of worship resemble Revelation 21:22:
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

He was prophecing to her of the destruction of The Temple as well as the area she lived in by the Romans. I do not see the relevence of that with Revelation and Zacheriah.  
Revelations equates the prophesied Temple with something different than a physical building.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 02:41:02 PM by rakovsky »

Offline Marc1152

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #288 on: May 07, 2013, 02:38:42 PM »
You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #289 on: May 07, 2013, 03:01:49 PM »
You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #290 on: May 07, 2013, 03:02:50 PM »
You recommended that a non-Jew wear a pray shawl. You have managed to commit sacrilege in two different religions concurrently.. Good Work  :)

That must make you SOOO happy?  :D
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #291 on: May 07, 2013, 03:06:24 PM »
I know that James was the Bishop of Jerusalem, but that doesn't mean there is a line of tradition from him to you.  I get the impression that that there were some Jewish Christians in the early Church that practiced Jewish customs, that practices died out and now 2000 years later, you are attempting to resurrect it.

I said Patriarchs AND unbroken tradition meaning BOTH.

I don't see how we are in the same situation.  You have never even admitted to being Jewish.  It's not like you are being cast aside because of your heritage.  For all I know, you are some American kid who saw some cool Jewish customs on Youtube and decided to incorporate them into your worship.  I haven't condemned you or called you a heretic, because what you decide to do doesn't really bother me, but I am kinda interested in your mindset (other than the persecution complex you seem to have)  ::)

Hmmm...many of you are Irish, German, ect...yet you all go to RUSSIAN Orthodox Churches or GREEK orthodox Churches AND you adopt their customs. Maybe read this:

http://www.st-benedict.org/Articles/Jewish_roots.htm

No, I don't.  In church, maybe.  But at home, my wife and I still do the German, Polish, and Italian customs we grew up doing.

tHERE YA GO!  :)

1. I don't see how this answers any questions.
2. I don't know of any parishes that practice what you practice including the parish that you linked to.

Which brings us back to the original question, what unbroken line of tradition are you following besides your own?

I never said any did.  But that does not mean I cant...just because something isnt practiced anymore that once was does not mean it cant be done any longer.
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #292 on: May 07, 2013, 03:09:49 PM »
Would it make you all happier if I were NOT Orthodox? Would it all be OK then?  ::)
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #293 on: May 07, 2013, 03:11:21 PM »
My happiness is not derived from anything you do or don't do.  I'm just confused by the astounding number of contradictions and paradoxes that seem to indwell our belief system.  :-*
Quote from: Mor Ephrem
Why can't you just take your spiritual edification like a man? 

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #294 on: May 07, 2013, 03:15:13 PM »
My happiness is not derived from anything you do or don't do.  I'm just confused by the astounding number of contradictions and paradoxes that seem to indwell our belief system.  :-*

I do not see any  :-*
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #295 on: May 07, 2013, 03:16:56 PM »
It just seems that me BEING Orthodox is what is bothering everyone...
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Offline sheenj

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #296 on: May 07, 2013, 03:20:55 PM »
It just seems that me BEING Orthodox is what is bothering everyone...

I think it's more you refusing to follow the accepted praxis of the Church. Especially considering that you are under an Orthodox Bishop.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #297 on: May 07, 2013, 03:38:09 PM »
It just seems that me BEING Orthodox is what is bothering everyone...

Was the OCA church disturbed by your Jewish worship?  Does your EP church tolerate your Jewish worship?

I skimmed the OCF article you provided.  No mention of former Russian Jews, after becoming Orthodox Christians, retaining patterns of Jewish worship.

Offline Феофан

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #298 on: May 07, 2013, 03:50:35 PM »
There really is nothing to clarify. Understanding and identifying with the Church within the original Judaic context.  I dont have any problems with the Church post 100AD.

If you accept, respect and find good guidance in the whole history of the Orthodox Church including its origins as well as its elaboration through time to this day - then we are brothers and I wish you well.  If something else then we are still brothers (as all men are) and I still wish you well ... even if I don't understand you.  May God have mercy and guide us all.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 03:51:52 PM by Theophan_C »
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Offline Punch

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #299 on: May 07, 2013, 05:47:11 PM »
It just seems that me BEING Orthodox is what is bothering everyone...

No.  What bothers me after reading this thread is that I really wish that you were Orthodox.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #300 on: May 07, 2013, 05:51:34 PM »
You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline rakovsky

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #301 on: May 07, 2013, 06:46:26 PM »
Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.
You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.
Every nation on earth that became Christian adopted "their" customs even though it did not have "their" background. Anyway, those customs themselves are either Israelite ones or based indirectly on Israelite customs.

No one complains about Greek customs being lost when they gave up their oracles and statues. Why do we have to think about this as a huge problem for the Jewish nationality if we no longer have a Day of Atonement Temple sacrifice in Christianity, and have Paskha, Christ's sacrifice, and the Eucharist instead?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 06:47:38 PM by rakovsky »

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #302 on: May 07, 2013, 07:34:36 PM »
It's one thing to have Jewish cultural practices, such as, perhaps, use of the Hebrew language. It's another to have Messianic Jewish, i.e. Protestant Christian practices such as saying you are part of a mysterious 'pre-100 A.D.' Orthodoxy, and continuing to practice Jewish, not Christian, festivals. No Christian I know of, whether of Jewish ancestry or otherwise, builds a booth outside their house for Sukkot, for instance. That's just Jewish. No one refers to the Jewish months. No one denies that Judaizing is a heresy. There's no way a church under the Ecumenical Patriarchate - such as the Greek Orthodox Church in the U.S., for instance- would do this kind of thing. Whether YHD grabbed the EP's name out of a hat just to cover his caboose, or just 'thinks' of himself as Orthodox because he lives near an Orthodox Church, is anyone's guess. But there is a difference between a Messianic Jew and an Orthodox Christian. A Messianic Jew is a Protestant. Like it or not, that is a fact. An Orthodox Christian is not a Protestant. If personal culture is so important, can I come to church in my old high school gym uniform?
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Offline dcommini

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #303 on: May 07, 2013, 08:20:23 PM »
Well, I gave the tallit to a poster on this forum who requested it for their brother (who is Jewish).

Just wanted to let you all know that.

Back to arguing.
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Offline Феофан

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #304 on: May 07, 2013, 09:51:05 PM »
Back to arguing.

nah... been there, done that!   ;)
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #305 on: May 07, 2013, 11:52:16 PM »
If personal culture is so important, can I come to church in my old high school gym uniform?
Yes, but you need a good excuse, like being poor and having nothing else.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #306 on: May 08, 2013, 06:30:20 AM »
It just seems that me BEING Orthodox is what is bothering everyone...

I think it's more you refusing to follow the accepted praxis of the Church.

And what would that be?
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Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #307 on: May 08, 2013, 06:36:02 AM »
Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.
You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.
Every nation on earth that became Christian adopted "their" customs even though it did not have "their" background. Anyway, those customs themselves are either Israelite ones or based indirectly on Israelite customs.

No one complains about Greek customs being lost when they gave up their oracles and statues. Why do we have to think about this as a huge problem for the Jewish nationality if we no longer have a Day of Atonement Temple sacrifice in Christianity, and have Paskha, Christ's sacrifice, and the Eucharist instead?

I never said it was a problem. I said, it is better understood within the original Jewish context. How many of you here knew Pascha directly fulfilled Yom HaBikkurim? Jews no longer have a temple sacrifice either. Christianity did not begin in Greece. It began in Jerusalem by JEWS that belived Yeshua was the promised Moshiach. It spread from there.
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline LBK

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #308 on: May 08, 2013, 06:38:05 AM »
It just seems that me BEING Orthodox is what is bothering everyone...

I think it's more you refusing to follow the accepted praxis of the Church.

And what would that be?

Observing the feasts of the Church as the Church sets out, which does not include the neo-Judaizing you indulge in.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #309 on: May 08, 2013, 06:47:57 AM »
It's one thing to have Jewish cultural practices, such as, perhaps, use of the Hebrew language. It's another to have Messianic Jewish, i.e. Protestant Christian practices such as saying you are part of a mysterious 'pre-100 A.D.' Orthodoxy, and continuing to practice Jewish, not Christian, festivals. No Christian I know of, whether of Jewish ancestry or otherwise, builds a booth outside their house for Sukkot, for instance. That's just Jewish. No one refers to the Jewish months. No one denies that Judaizing is a heresy. There's no way a church under the Ecumenical Patriarchate - such as the Greek Orthodox Church in the U.S., for instance- would do this kind of thing. Whether YHD grabbed the EP's name out of a hat just to cover his caboose, or just 'thinks' of himself as Orthodox because he lives near an Orthodox Church, is anyone's guess. But there is a difference between a Messianic Jew and an Orthodox Christian. A Messianic Jew is a Protestant. Like it or not, that is a fact. An Orthodox Christian is not a Protestant. If personal culture is so important, can I come to church in my old high school gym uniform?

There must be a reason you continually bring up things I never said. Either you are a moron, or you just want to continue bearing false witness. Which is it? I guess you have never read the OT? Never heard any of this in Church have you? The month of nisan? I do not need to prove anything to YOU. You keep saying I continue to practice Jewish festivals...that would make me a practicing Jew. I have already told you that I follow Yeshua. I mean do you think Pascha and Pentecost popped out of thin air? They are fulfillments OF THE JEWISH FESTIVALS! How many times must I repeat this to you?
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #310 on: May 08, 2013, 06:50:49 AM »
You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.

Not confused at all. What I am confused about is why this is SO IMPORTANT to all of YOU? We are of the same faith yet it is YOU who are bothered by it...
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #311 on: May 08, 2013, 06:53:52 AM »
There really is nothing to clarify. Understanding and identifying with the Church within the original Judaic context.  I dont have any problems with the Church post 100AD.

If you accept, respect and find good guidance in the whole history of the Orthodox Church including its origins as well as its elaboration through time to this day - then we are brothers and I wish you well.  If something else then we are still brothers (as all men are) and I still wish you well ... even if I don't understand you.  May God have mercy and guide us all.

Thank you  :)
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

Offline LBK

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #312 on: May 08, 2013, 06:57:16 AM »
You don't have to be a Roman or even Italian to be a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

You don't have to be Russian to be a member of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.



Yeah, so? My point, as you seem to consistently seem to miss, was that you adopt their customs even though you do not have their background.

You seem to be confused about what customs are and what the Christian Faith is.

Not confused at all. What I am confused about is why this is SO IMPORTANT to all of YOU? We are of the same faith yet it is YOU who are bothered by it...

We have no need of recognition of the old Jewish festivals, and we are commanded to NOT celebrate/observe them, as they are deficient and not in keeping with Orthodox belief and teaching. Pity you can't see this.

Offline Yeshua HaDerekh

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #313 on: May 08, 2013, 07:03:10 AM »
It just seems that me BEING Orthodox is what is bothering everyone...

Was the OCA church disturbed by your Jewish worship?  Does your EP church tolerate your Jewish worship?

I skimmed the OCF article you provided.  No mention of former Russian Jews, after becoming Orthodox Christians, retaining patterns of Jewish worship.

Jewish worship...there it is again  ::)

Our Liturgy is "Jewish" worship. That is where it came from and rightfully so since most all the early Orthodox Christians were JEWS. They worshiped in the synagogues and then in house churches. A book you may want to read:

http://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Worship-Living-Continuity-Synagogue/dp/0937032727
If they hear not Moshe and the Nevi'im, neither will they be persuaded by one that rose from the dead.

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Re: My Mom Gave me a Jewish Prayer Shawl...
« Reply #314 on: May 08, 2013, 07:03:57 AM »
Yeah, I think Pentecost just popped out of thin air. Like a mighty rushing wind.

There's a reason we don't call it by the name of the Jewish festival of Shavuot.

It isn't Jewish.

He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.