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Author Topic: Serbian-Hellenic Brotherhood  (Read 2329 times) Average Rating: 0
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plutonas
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« on: January 15, 2003, 05:43:17 PM »

Promoting Greek-Serb friendship, brotherhood, and unity: http://www.serbia-hellas.f2g.net/
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prodromos
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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2003, 05:45:48 AM »

I wasn't aware that there didn't exist a sense of brotherhood between Greeks and Serbs.

Filakia Kiss, John (who is not actually Greek, lovely wife is though).

<edit> and having actually looked at the list of articles on your site realise that this is not your opinion either. Sorry about that </edit>
« Last Edit: January 16, 2003, 05:55:10 AM by prodromos » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2003, 09:05:06 AM »

Its good that Greece is supporting the Serbian people this way.  It is in the interest of both countries to have this union.  This union will prove fruitful in the years to come.  With conditions as they are and with the present political climate, Serbia can not count on any EU support.  Angry

JoeS

I wasn't aware that there didn't exist a sense of brotherhood between Greeks and Serbs.

Filakia Kiss, John (who is not actually Greek, lovely wife is though).

<edit> and having actually looked at the list of articles on your site realise that this is not your opinion either. Sorry about that </edit>
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jude
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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2003, 10:08:57 AM »

But 'autocracy?'

I have to laugh at the thought Roll Eyes....in the case of the Greeks.

Six and half years as a resident of Greece taught me that Greeks have--for the most part--lost any taste for 'autocrats.' Admittedly, that is descriptive of the Greek political scene decades ago, but I have no reason to believe contemporary Greeks would have any 'stomachi' for 'autocracy,'
other than that of the 'autocracy' of the left, though such 'autocracy' would be euphemistically labeled 'proletarian democracy.'Autocracy,' indeed! Socrates would have a fit.

However, I do agree the Serbs are in dire need of friends anr allies, since they have become not only the pariahs of the Balkans to the Slovenes, Croats, Macedonians, Bosnians, Romani, Turks, Jews, Albanians (Muslims and Christians), but even to the Montenegrins (and are within their own ranks a family disfunctional to the extreme.) Hopefully, their wounds are healing. They have suffered enough.

Peace to the Serbs. May they learn to live their Orthodoxy.

Jude
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prodromos
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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2003, 10:11:13 AM »

Jude, are you still a resident of Greece?
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Brigid of Kildare
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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2003, 12:40:31 PM »

The British Sunday newspaper The Observer carried an article on another, less savoury, aspect of Serbian-Hellenic co-operation recently:

Greece faces shame of role in Serb massacre

War crimes tribunal will hear secrets of support for Milosevic's ethnic cleansing

Helena Smith in Athens
Sunday January 5, 2003
The Observer

It is what Hellenes have long feared: the shattering of a conspiracy of silence that has surrounded the role of Greek volunteers who proudly flew their flag at Srebrenica, after participating in Europe's worst massacre since the Second World War, when 7,000 men, women and children died.
Next week, as Greece settles into the presidency of the European Union, Milan Milutinovic, Serbia's recently retired president, will be brought before the war crimes tribunal at The Hague. Greek involvement in the atrocity, as well as other secrets Athens would prefer buried, could be revealed when the 60-year-old testifies.

No one, it is said, played such a pivotal role in the alliance between Athens and Belgrade during the Nineties Balkan conflicts. As Yugoslavia's ambassador to Greece, Milutinovic was Slobodan Milosevic's most trusted lieutenant. His links with Greece's political, religious and business elites were allegedly crucial to Serbia's secret economic infrastructure. They allowed the country to evade United Nations sanctions and, according to the International Criminal Tribunal, contributed considerably towards Milosevic's war machine.

When the diplomat was promoted to Foreign Minister in 1994, he retained his Athens post for several months when, EU diplomats say, he stashed away funds to buy villas and other prime properties in Athens and Crete at the behest of his boss.

With Greece's admiring public, pro-Serbian church, tolerant media and governments that supported Milosevic, Athens was seen as a bolt-hole by the now disgraced president. As Bosnian Serb ethnic cleansers torched villages, it was here Milosevic would escape to enjoy the hospitality of Greek politicians. Marko Milosevic, his lascivious smuggler son, declared Greece 'my first home'.

'This is our best-kept secret, the subject no politician of any persuasion has ever wanted to broach,' said Takis Michas, author of Unholy Alliance: Greece and Milosevic's Serbia. 'In an era where everyone is saying sorry, in Greece at least no one has shown remorse for the crimes in Bosnia when undoubtedly a significant proportion of the political establishment bear some responsibility.'

The US-published book, yet to be printed in Greek, records in shocking detail the relationship between the two Orthodox nations, including the leaking of Nato military intelligence under socialist leader Andreas Papandreou.

The Greeks know their past may be catching up with them. After last month's long statement of contrition before the Hague tribunal by the former Bosnian Serb leader, Biljana Plavsic, many believe it is only a matter of time before others open up too.

A Dutch documentary investigating Greek complicity in the Serb wars was aired on local television in which a director of the semi-official Athens News Agency, Nikolas Voulelis, admitted to widespread censorship. During the wars the Greek media was fanatically pro-Serb, portraying Yugoslav Muslims as 'infidel Turks' bent on destroying their Orthodox brethren. 'Editorial interference was a given,' he said.

But it was not only hospitality or money that the Greeks offered. Spiritual succour was provided by the Greek Orthodox church which sent priests to the front line (several clerics received bravery medals from Plavsic).

In a step repeated in no other country, Archbishop Serafeim invited the Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic to visit Athens in 1993. At a mass rally attended by prominent politicians, the indicted war criminal proclaimed: 'We have only God and the Greeks on our side.'

Last year, in a 7,000-page report that the Dutch authorities commissioned into the 1995 Srebrenica massacre, Greece was revealed to have sent shipments of light arms and ammunition to the Bosnian Serb army between 1994 and 1995. The report describes how Greek volunteers were implored, in intercepted army telephone conversations, to raise the Greek flag after the town fell. In one, General Ratko Mladic asked that they record the scene on video for propaganda purposes.

Around 100 soldiers are believed to have joined the Greek Volunteer Guard, formed at Mladic's request. The unit, which fought alongside Russians and Ukrainians, was led by Serb officers and had its own insignia - the double-headed eagle of Byzantium. At least four of its members were awarded the White Eagle medal of honour by Karadzic.

Although their 'heroic' exploits were widely reported in the Greek press, the volunteers have gone to ground since the creation of the war crimes tribunal. No government or party has ever sought an inquiry into their activities.

http://www.observer.co.uk/milosevic/story/0,10639,868869,00.html

I look forward to reading some of the articles on your site for other views though.
Brigid
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jude
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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2003, 01:53:20 PM »

Jude, are you still a resident of Greece?

No. I returned to the U.S., in 1978. Unfortunately, I haven't been back since.

Jude























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plutonas
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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2003, 02:03:31 PM »

But 'autocracy?'

I have to laugh at the thought Roll Eyes....in the case of the Greeks.

Six and half years as a resident of Greece taught me that Greeks have--for the most part--lost any taste for 'autocrats.' Admittedly, that is descriptive of the Greek political scene decades ago, but I have no reason to believe contemporary Greeks would have any 'stomachi' for 'autocracy,'
other than that of the 'autocracy' of the left, though such 'autocracy' would be euphemistically labeled 'proletarian democracy.'Autocracy,' indeed! Socrates would have a fit.

Maybe the majority of the Greeks have lost any taste for autocrats or even for a strong national government, but I don't subscribe to the socialist or democratic political beleifs that many Greeks unfortunately do.  As I see it, these same alien political ideologies have resulted in the poisoning of Greek society.
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jude
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2003, 02:10:41 PM »

Of course, you would also agree that 'autocracy' is just as alien to Hellenism as socialism or communism?

You would also agree that Socrates was a 'corruptor' of youth and an enemy of society, that free-thinking scoundrel; no?

Jude
« Last Edit: January 16, 2003, 02:38:39 PM by jude the obscure » Logged
plutonas
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« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2003, 02:50:55 PM »

No, I wouldn't say that at all.  But in all fairness I wouldn't say that about any political system either.  After all, in the ancient Hellenic world, many forms of government were employed -- democracy (Athens), oligarchy (Sparta), monarchy (Macedonia). To argue that one of these political systems represents the ideals of Hellenism better than the other is ridiculous.  To try and link any of these political systems to Hellenis is offensive.  

So while I do sympathize with the types of goverments used in ancient Sparta and Macedonia in classical Greece, in Byzantium in medeival times, and during the 4th of August regime in modern Greek history, I would never say that only these types of governments represent Hellenism.  Rather I only argue that the above-mentioned systems are more efficient than the democratic system employed today (which by the way is markedly different than the system that was used in ancient Athens).

However, some political ideologies, such as socialism and communism, are completely incompatible with Hellenism for obvious reasons.

As for Socrates, he and Plato were both very critical of the democratic government of Athens.
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jude
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« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2003, 03:18:14 PM »

Well, one could say that Sparta was a communistic monarchy and, since you have read Plato, that his ideal society would have been a syncretistic aristocratic-socialist system.

But, to contemporary Greeks, the perfect model of society and government seems to have its origins in the ideals of the Golden Age of Pericles. Byzantium seems to be but a faint memory, with no relevance to modern life and conditions.

Btw: In the case of Socrates, being critical of the democratic Athens of his day certainly is not synonymous with being critical of democracy. After all, he was the 'free-speech gadfly' of his day.


Jude
« Last Edit: January 16, 2003, 03:32:33 PM by jude the obscure » Logged
plutonas
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« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2003, 03:54:50 PM »

Quote
Well, one could say that Sparta was a communistic monarchy and, since you have read Plato, that his ideal society would have been a syncretistic aristocratic-socialist system.

One could say many things... but it doesn't mean they're necessarily correct.  Spartan society would actually have more in common with National Socialism or Fascism (both of which uphold anti-capitalist economic systems) than Communism or Socialism.  In fact, I believe that Hitler and other champions of National Socialism/Fascism held Spartan society in high esteem.

In any case, I'm not against the economic aspects of Socialism, but rather of the social aspects.

Quote
But, to contemporary Greeks, the perfect model of society and government seems to have its origins in the ideals of the Golden Age of Pericles. Byzantium seems to be but a faint memory, with no relevance to modern life and conditions.

I'd venture to say that modern Greeks find all of Hellenism to be a faint memory, with no relevance to modern life and conditions.

Quote
Btw: In the case of Socrates, being critical of the democratic Athens of his day certainly is not synonymous with being critical of democracy. After all, he was the 'free-speech gadfly' of his day.

True, but if you've read The Republic you'd see that Socrates and Plato were not only critical of Athenian democracy, but also many of the central values of democracy itself.
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jude
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« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2003, 04:23:16 PM »

No, I think the issue of state capitalism and Sparta is a moot one, since capitalism is a product of the Industrial Revolution, and therefore, irrelevant to the Spartan economic-social scheme.

However, it is obvious that both communism and socialism, even of the Marxist variety, share common social practices with the Spartan system, especially those regarding  women in the community and the raising and nurturing of children, all of which are anti-thetical to Orthodox Christianity.

Jude
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plutonas
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« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2003, 05:07:15 PM »

There were some socialistic-like institutions in Spartan society -- education for children, communal housing for men, somewhat equal distribution of land, and so on  -- but these instituions were not created through a social theory advocating egalitarianism (like Marxism), but rather to enhance and make more efficient the militaristic nature of the city-state.  Every single thing done in Spartan society was geared towards this goal.  

Furthermore, Sparta was not a class-less society, or a society where the classes were treated equally.  The political and legal benefits I noted above only applied for native Spartans who could trace their lineage back to the original inhabitants of the city.  The perioeci were a class composed of various conquered peoples.  Although these people were allowed to administer their cities, to carry on trade, etc. they could still be put to death on the whims of any Spartan officials, clearly demonstrating their inferior status.  The Helots, also conquered peoples (and oddly enough mostly from Laconia), had even less rights and were slave-like serfs, whose main responsibilty was to raise food for their masters, the Spartans.

Due to such factors, some historians have even compared Sparta's class structure to the Indian caste system -- which clearly does not resemble a socialistic institution.

That's why I say Sparta had more in common with National Socialism or Fascism.  The native inhabitants were all considered equal because of their ancestral lineage and the laws reflected this, but their loyalty was always to the state, and not on furthering "social brotherhood" or "international solidarity" (or in our case, perhaps "city-state solidarity").
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jude
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« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2003, 09:03:59 PM »

Hellenic Front saves
Greek Pomaks from turkification.

www.e-grammes.gr/2001/07/pomaks_en.htm

Jude
« Last Edit: January 17, 2003, 09:07:00 PM by jude the obscure » Logged
Knez_Nenad_of_Serbia
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« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2006, 09:30:29 PM »

go to shforums.us.tt

Its a Greek Serb forum!!  Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley
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serb1389
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« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2006, 05:28:33 PM »

There's a Serbian-Greek-Macedonian "federation" in Chicago.  There's a forum/web-site but its pretty Serbian based.  If any are interested let me know, i'll put up a link...
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