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Author Topic: Turkish Parliament to Consider Turning Hagia Sophia into a Mosque  (Read 3383 times) Average Rating: 0
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orthonorm
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« Reply #90 on: February 14, 2013, 04:14:18 PM »

It's just a building.

The number of revenge fantasies against Muslims I see percolating through these threads make me wonder if I have fundamentally misunderstood Christianity.

Are you now or have you even been a Protestant?!?!

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Romaios
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« Reply #91 on: February 14, 2013, 04:20:10 PM »

One can take the view that ALL of our sufferings, Turks and other Muslims included, are God's "punishment" (or reprimand) for our sins.

The Byzantines could have evangelized the Turks, like St. Cyrill and Methodius had done with the Slavs...

Well, there are a bunch of Turks now. Why don't you give it a try yourself?

I'm no Cyrill nor Methodius. But the Ecumenical Patriarchate finally seems to be paying some attention to the Turks, even if it's just the occasional Gospel read in Turkish at Pascha or ministry to the Karamanlides/Turkish speaking Greeks. 
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Theophilos78
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« Reply #92 on: February 14, 2013, 04:21:31 PM »

The funny thing is that Muhammad bin Abdallah did not like Turks at all!  Grin According to Sahih Bukhari (a reliable source of hadith), he made the following statement:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the turks; people with small eyes, red faces, and flat noses. Their faces will look like shields coated with leather. The Hour will not be established till you fight with people whose shoes are made of hair." Volume 4, Book 52, Number 179
http://www.sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/results.php5

He also claimed that Gog and Magog had the same ancestor as Turks!

(Until, when Ya`juj and Ma`juj are let loose,) We have already mentioned that they are from the progeny of Adam, upon him be peace; they are also descents of Nuh through his son Yafith (Japheth), who was the father of the Turks, Turk referring to the group of them who were left behind the barrier which was built by Dhul-Qarnayn.
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2623&Itemid=76
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dzheremi
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« Reply #93 on: February 14, 2013, 04:21:40 PM »

But...never mind, it is after all an almost irrelevant digression.

Almost, but for the words of Holy Elders like St. Cosmas the Aetolian, who viewed the Turk as "God's hound" and the Muslim yoke as punishment for the sins of the Orthodox.  

This was a common (apocalyptic) understanding in early Syriac Christianity, too -- the Syriacs being naturally the first people to encounter Islam and Muslims. See Sydney Griffith's "Syriac Writers on Muslims and the Religious Challenge of Islam" (St. Ephrem Ecumenical Research Institute, Kottayam 1994). As such, it took a little while for apologetics against Islam to appear in Syriac (rather than just apocalyptic literature painting Muslims/Islam as punishers for Christian sin or laxity). The most famous of this initial wave is probably the earliest (8th century): the disputation between the Monk of Bet Hale and the Arab notable (or, variously, "emir"), which is partially reproduced in the above-mentioned work. It is written elsewhere (in Suha Rassam's 2005 history Christianity in Iraq) that when the Nestorians/East Syrians lost all of their territories in the Arabian Peninsula proper (in which there used to be many dioceses and churches in Oman, Kuwait, Bahrain, etc.) to the Muslim invaders, they did not even blame the Muslims themselves, but rather supposed laxity among their own priests.

Yet I don't see this early tradition as reason enough to continue treating today's Islamic oppression as a continuation of the same phenomenon. After all, plenty of early Christian treatments of Islam viewed it essentially as a Christian heresy, but with increased exposure to Islamic doctrine that view has been challenged quite successfully in some ways. And besides, what have today's Syriac, Byzantine, Coptic, and other native Eastern Christians done? Most have held on to their faith quite tightly, all things considered. Should they be "punished", too, and take the fatalistic view that all the horrors inflicted upon them are divine retribution for...something or other? Did they move to Sweden, Germany, France, the Netherlands, America, etc. only to have their persecutors hound them there, too? I don't think so...and I've already heard the stories told to me by Coptic friends in the Netherlands that local Muslims would come to their homes on Friday (since I guess Arabic-speakers would cluster together, to some degree), telling them in a threatening manner that it's time to go to the mosque (according to the person who told me this, that behavior only stopped when the father of the family physically threatened the coarse dawah agent with a punch in the face...Copts are peaceful people, but come on). Is that divine retribution, too?

Not to say anything about every individual Muslim on the face of the planet or anything, but I think the much more simple explanation that some people really are just jerks and/or psychopaths acting under the influence of Satan works better than to say that everybody who kills your family members, burns down your house, destroys your monasteries, etc. is acting as the rod of God's anger. (Besides, that honor goes to the Assyrians, who have been Christian to some degree ever since King Abgar corresponded with Jesus Christ our Lord personally; Muslims are nothing but late-comers, hangers on, LARPers, etc.)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 04:23:43 PM by dzheremi » Logged

Romaios
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« Reply #94 on: February 14, 2013, 04:52:02 PM »

Yet I don't see this early tradition as reason enough to continue treating today's Islamic oppression as a continuation of the same phenomenon.

And besides, what have today's Syriac, Byzantine, Coptic, and other native Eastern Christians done? Most have held on to their faith quite tightly, all things considered. Should they be "punished", too, and take the fatalistic view that all the horrors inflicted upon them are divine retribution for...something or other?

Such a fatalistic view would surely be over-simplistic and unfair.

Nevertheless, the idea that historical catastrophes are brought about by the sins/unfaithfulness of the people of God is pretty much the Judeo-Christian theology of history, from the Deuteronomist to St. John the Divine. It cannot be easily dismissed.

Of course the innocent suffer and there are countless martyrs for justice: "For thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter" (Ps. 43:22). "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" (Rev. 6:10)

There's also hope for the future: "For the rod of the wicked shall not rest upon the lot of the righteous; lest the righteous put forth their hands unto iniquity." (Ps. 124:3) "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." (Mt. 5:5) 
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« Reply #95 on: February 14, 2013, 05:04:54 PM »

I think we're in agreement here, Romaios. My only point was that not all calamities that befall the Christian people are a result of something they've done, and to refer to the Turks as "God's hounds" just because they were once referred to as that is not right.

Either that or God really, really wants to punish Pontic Greeks, Armenians, and Syriacs, for some reason.
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orthonorm
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« Reply #96 on: February 14, 2013, 05:09:20 PM »

Yet I don't see this early tradition as reason enough to continue treating today's Islamic oppression as a continuation of the same phenomenon.

And besides, what have today's Syriac, Byzantine, Coptic, and other native Eastern Christians done? Most have held on to their faith quite tightly, all things considered. Should they be "punished", too, and take the fatalistic view that all the horrors inflicted upon them are divine retribution for...something or other?

Such a fatalistic view would surely be over-simplistic and unfair.

Nevertheless, the idea that historical catastrophes are brought about by the sins/unfaithfulness of the people of God is pretty much the Judeo-Christian theology of history, from the Deuteronomist to St. John the Divine. It cannot be easily dismissed.

Of course the innocent suffer and there are countless martyrs for justice: "For thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter" (Ps. 43:22). "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" (Rev. 6:10)

There's also hope for the future: "For the rod of the wicked shall not rest upon the lot of the righteous; lest the righteous put forth their hands unto iniquity." (Ps. 124:3) "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth." (Mt. 5:5) 

You and your Bible.

This thread is really bringing out a lot of Closetants.
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« Reply #97 on: February 14, 2013, 05:10:27 PM »

It's just a building.

The number of revenge fantasies against Muslims I see percolating through these threads make me wonder if I have fundamentally misunderstood Christianity.

Are you now or have you even been a Protestant?!?!



I must admit to my everlasting shame that I used to attend the meetings, occasionally in tents.

Speaking of, sometimes in those tent meetings they would read to us from the great protomartyr's speech:

Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob. But Solomon built him an house. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? Hath not my hand made all these things?
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Romaios
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« Reply #98 on: February 14, 2013, 05:24:57 PM »

You and your Bible.

This thread is really bringing out a lot of Closetants.

Despite avidly reading the Bible while growing up as a Protestant, my romance with it started in my Roman-Catholic days. Yet, not until I returned to the Orthodox fold, did I begin to quote Scripture copiously.

I reckon there's not much left to dis-closet now.  Cool     
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 05:52:30 PM by Romaios » Logged
William
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« Reply #99 on: February 14, 2013, 06:57:03 PM »

Karma?  Orthodoxy?  Huh Huh

Do you think there is no connection between Moroccan and Algerian immigration to France, Pakistani or Indian immigration in Britain, people from Surinam or Indonesia immigrating to the Netherlands, hispanics immigrating to the US, etc. and those countries having had colonies there? This is the sort of 'karma' I am talking about and it's kind of hard to make sense of it any other way.   

If you prefer it in biblical language: "whatever a man shall sow, that also shall he reap" (Gal. 6:7).

The sinner shall not escape with his spoils.
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« Reply #100 on: February 14, 2013, 07:03:14 PM »

You and your Bible.

This thread is really bringing out a lot of Closetants.

Despite avidly reading the Bible while growing up as a Protestant, my romance with it started in my Roman-Catholic days. Yet, not until I returned to the Orthodox fold, did I begin to quote Scripture copiously.

I reckon there's not much left to dis-closet now.  Cool     

Conversion story time?
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Charles Martel
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« Reply #101 on: February 20, 2013, 08:41:50 PM »

Orthodox patriarch opposes plan to make Hagia Sophia a mosque


CWN - February 20, 2013

 
 
Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople has staked out his opposition to convert the Hagia Sophia into a mosque.

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=17116&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CatholicWorldNewsFeatureStories+%28Catholic+World+News+%28on+CatholicCulture.org%29%29
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