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Author Topic: Using the Coptic Book of Hours  (Read 369 times) Average Rating: 0
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peacenprayer
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« on: February 03, 2013, 08:08:42 PM »

Hi, all!

I just wanted to ask if any one knew of any problems with Eastern Orthodox using the Agpeya? The prayers are lovely.

Just curious.

Cheers!
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Cantor Krishnich
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« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2013, 08:17:27 PM »

Subscribed

I have the same question, the prayers in the Agepya are very beautiful. I have a copy which I use privately but with caution.
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« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2013, 08:22:36 PM »

I used the Agpia for a long time before I could get hold of a Byzantine one that wasn't the size of a phonebook. In and of itself I don't see a problem with it, provided you don't include the additions to the Trisagion ('who was crucified for us'), but it might be better to pray the Hours according to the tradition followed by your own church.
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peacenprayer
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« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2013, 08:37:06 PM »

I used the Agpia for a long time before I could get hold of a Byzantine one that wasn't the size of a phonebook. In and of itself I don't see a problem with it, provided you don't include the additions to the Trisagion ('who was crucified for us'), but it might be better to pray the Hours according to the tradition followed by your own church.

Could you throw me a link to the smaller book of hours you have?
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Nephi
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« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2013, 10:20:36 PM »

I used the Agpia for a long time before I could get hold of a Byzantine one that wasn't the size of a phonebook. In and of itself I don't see a problem with it, provided you don't include the additions to the Trisagion ('who was crucified for us'), but it might be better to pray the Hours according to the tradition followed by your own church.
What are the "additions to the Trisagion" and why are they problematic?
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« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2013, 10:31:22 PM »

I used the Agpia for a long time before I could get hold of a Byzantine one that wasn't the size of a phonebook. In and of itself I don't see a problem with it, provided you don't include the additions to the Trisagion ('who was crucified for us'), but it might be better to pray the Hours according to the tradition followed by your own church.
What are the "additions to the Trisagion" and why are they problematic?

The Oriental Trisagion:
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, who was crucified for us, have mercy on us!

The addition "who was crucified for us" is  not canonical according to Eastern Orthodox Churches and I think that there is a canon forbidding the use of these words as they are connected to monophysitism which is considered heresy by the Eastern Orthodox communions.
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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2013, 10:59:57 PM »

To us, the main gist of the Trisagion is a Christological prayer (except the end where you say, Glory to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit...), whereas to the EOs, it is a Trinitarian prayer, from beginning to end.

There are indications among early church fathers that a triple holy can be interpreted either way, whether it be to Christ or to the Trinity, both seemed acceptable.  Because of the Chalcedonian situation, polemical problems have increased.  This phrase was added by OOs as a way to combat Nestorianism, whereas the shock this received by the EOs lead to officially making it a canon that this is a hymn only to the Trinity because the Trinity was not crucified for us.

In the Agpeya, as well as in the Coptic Church liturgically, it is actually three different phrases:

Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, who was....

1.  born of the Virgin,
2.  crucified for us,
3.  rose from the dead and ascended to the heavens,

have mercy on us.

On regular days, we say all three.  On the Nativity feast, we repeat number 1 three times.  On Passion Week we repeat number 2 three times.  From the Resurrection feast to the day before Ascension feast, we only say the first part of number 3 three times, and then from the Ascension feast to the rest of the 50 days we say all of number 3 three times.  Finally, on the day of Theophany, we say something different:  "baptized in the Jordan," three times.

And...this is chanted in Greek, not Coptic. (fun fact:  not everything we chant in the Coptic Church that is not English/Arabic is Coptic, but can be Greek; we've been told we have terrible pronunciations though...I like to think of it as the Coptic accent of Greek Wink )
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 11:03:36 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2013, 11:34:06 PM »

I used the Agpia for a long time before I could get hold of a Byzantine one that wasn't the size of a phonebook. In and of itself I don't see a problem with it, provided you don't include the additions to the Trisagion ('who was crucified for us'), but it might be better to pray the Hours according to the tradition followed by your own church.
What are the "additions to the Trisagion" and why are they problematic?

Fr. Peter gives a good summary of the situation here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28321.msg448274.html#msg448274
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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2013, 11:40:33 PM »

To us, the main gist of the Trisagion is a Christological prayer (except the end where you say, Glory to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit...), whereas to the EOs, it is a Trinitarian prayer, from beginning to end.

There are indications among early church fathers that a triple holy can be interpreted either way, whether it be to Christ or to the Trinity, both seemed acceptable.  Because of the Chalcedonian situation, polemical problems have increased.  This phrase was added by OOs as a way to combat Nestorianism, whereas the shock this received by the EOs lead to officially making it a canon that this is a hymn only to the Trinity because the Trinity was not crucified for us.

In the Agpeya, as well as in the Coptic Church liturgically, it is actually three different phrases:

Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, who was....

1.  born of the Virgin,
2.  crucified for us,
3.  rose from the dead and ascended to the heavens,

have mercy on us.

On regular days, we say all three.  On the Nativity feast, we repeat number 1 three times.  On Passion Week we repeat number 2 three times.  From the Resurrection feast to the day before Ascension feast, we only say the first part of number 3 three times, and then from the Ascension feast to the rest of the 50 days we say all of number 3 three times.  Finally, on the day of Theophany, we say something different:  "baptized in the Jordan," three times.

And...this is chanted in Greek, not Coptic. (fun fact:  not everything we chant in the Coptic Church that is not English/Arabic is Coptic, but can be Greek; we've been told we have terrible pronunciations though...I like to think of it as the Coptic accent of Greek Wink )

Thanks for the thorough explanation of the Coptic usage. Smiley
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Nephi
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« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2013, 11:43:13 PM »

I used the Agpia for a long time before I could get hold of a Byzantine one that wasn't the size of a phonebook. In and of itself I don't see a problem with it, provided you don't include the additions to the Trisagion ('who was crucified for us'), but it might be better to pray the Hours according to the tradition followed by your own church.
What are the "additions to the Trisagion" and why are they problematic?

Fr. Peter gives a good summary of the situation here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28321.msg448274.html#msg448274

I actually found another thread where Fr. Peter summarized it, but thanks anyway.

Either way, it seems like another unnecessary polemical disagreement.
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Orthodox11
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« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2013, 08:30:13 AM »

Could you throw me a link to the smaller book of hours you have?

Neither of the ones I use are in English I'm afraid. I do know a couple of pocket size English ones do exist, but I forget their names. I'm sure someone here will know.

What I did for a while was print out the concluding prayers of each hour and the Apolytikia and Kontakia for each day of the week (the only variable parts for the Hours) onto little cards and stick them into the blank pages of my pocket Psalter. That works pretty well too, although it naturally involves more page flicking.

Either way, it seems like another unnecessary polemical disagreement.

I don't consider its use as a christological hymn problematic in the context of the OO tradition. However, if you're EO I don't think it would be very helpful to address the same hymn to the Trinity when in church, but to Christ alone when praying at home.
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Nephi
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« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2013, 12:26:03 PM »

I don't consider its use as a christological hymn problematic in the context of the OO tradition. However, if you're EO I don't think it would be very helpful to address the same hymn to the Trinity when in church, but to Christ alone when praying at home.
Of course one should be consistent to one's church tradition, but the anathematizing of its use at all is what I dismissed at polemical.
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