Is the Catholic Church Catholic?

[biro]

So you say. I have to wait for the Pope's call. Tonight, he gives me the secret coded message about the lizard overlords and the banking cabals.

[J Michael]

Guess I don't know why.

Why do so many people around here wish that CAF still had an "Eastern Christianity Forum"?

Its just easier to discuss certain issues.  Like if one wants to talk about the Divine Liturgy, should there be a differentiation between the one served at a Catholic parish as opposed to an Orthodox one?  The problem is if a conversation becomes Orthodox-centric, it gets moved to the Non-Catholic Forum.

I have to stay on this board, just so you have someone to yell at in Orth.-Cath. D. I mean, what are Roman Catholics for?

Roman Catholics are there to tell Eastern Catholics what they should believe.

Maybe in your world.  Not in mine.  And I'm Eastern Catholic. 

[Peter J]

I have to stay on this board, just so you have someone to yell at in Orth.-Cath. D. I mean, what are Roman Catholics for?

Roman Catholics are there to tell Eastern Catholics what they should believe.

Then what are Mozarabic Catholics for?

[choy]

Guess I don't know why.

Why do so many people around here wish that CAF still had an "Eastern Christianity Forum"?

Its just easier to discuss certain issues.  Like if one wants to talk about the Divine Liturgy, should there be a differentiation between the one served at a Catholic parish as opposed to an Orthodox one?  The problem is if a conversation becomes Orthodox-centric, it gets moved to the Non-Catholic Forum.

I have to stay on this board, just so you have someone to yell at in Orth.-Cath. D. I mean, what are Roman Catholics for?

Roman Catholics are there to tell Eastern Catholics what they should believe.

Maybe in your world.  Not in mine.  And I'm Eastern Catholic. 

Not anymore, I've been suspended from that world

[choy]

I have to stay on this board, just so you have someone to yell at in Orth.-Cath. D. I mean, what are Roman Catholics for?

Roman Catholics are there to tell Eastern Catholics what they should believe.

Then what are Mozarabic Catholics for?

To give Roman Catholics another Liturgy to desire 

[dzheremi]

I have to stay on this board, just so you have someone to yell at in Orth.-Cath. D. I mean, what are Roman Catholics for?

Roman Catholics are there to tell Eastern Catholics what they should believe.

Then what are Mozarabic Catholics for?

A dying relic that Rome couldn't completely stamp out, so Rome eventually left them to their half a dozen churches. Don't you remember the famous trial by fire?

[Peter J]

Are you kidding? Who doesn't remember it??

(Anybody? I don't want to be the only one.)

[J Michael]

Are you kidding? Who doesn't remember it??

(Anybody? I don't want to be the only one.)

Ah, crap!  Another hole in my education exposed  .  Not only do I not remember it, I never knew it in order to forget it  !

[Peter J]

I think the issue here is that Catholics find it hurtful for the Orthodox to say that we do not believe in the same thing.

Sure, it's a big disappointment, but I got used to it about 8 or 9 years ago.

At the moment I'm a trifle more annoyed by the hit-and-run (if you will): you guys love to pontificate stuff like "You either are in communion or not"*, but we Catholics (or, presumably, Anglicans, or Lutherans, or whoever else) had better not "trot out the OO/EO divide" in response.

* Or as Kerdy said two weeks ago, "It [Orthodoxy] is what it is and you either accept it or you don’t." (Three days later he said "It doesn't matter to which you belong (EO/OO), both are Orthodox and neither are in the habit of changing things.")

Actually this discussion on "communion or not" was from CAF.  And I agree.  I mean, is partial communion even communion?  How do you even determine that?  How much similarity is similar enough?  Who sets the guidelines?

I really don't have much to say about the EO/OO.  I don't have much experience with the OO in anything.  But at least for communion, I'm quite firm in my belief that it is an all or nothing thing.  It's like, "do we agree or not?"  How can we say we believe in the same Jesus if we can't agree in all points about Him?  And even if there are 100 points and we only disagree on one, how can we say that we are talking about the same Jesus?

For the record, my own views about C-EO-OO have changed somewhat from 6 or 7 years ago. When I first joined this forum, I basically figured Sure, there are big disagreements between Catholics and EOs, but not much bigger than the disagreements between EOs and OOs. But then over the next year or two I came to see that they are a good deal bigger.

P.S. This isn't very closely related, but I just noticed that the song I'm hearing on Pandora is from an album called "Hallelujah EP".

[erimos]

Not exactly sure. I mena, you talk about the Catholic Chruch, just about anybody in the world knows who and what your talking about. But when you bring up Orthododxy, most people who not belong to a particular ethnic group just scratch their heads in confusion. In the sense of UNIVERSAL, the Orthodox Church is about as Catholic as Tesco- it's in a lot of places, but you wouldn't know about unless you either grew up with it or researched it later.

Only someone belonging to the Roman church would insult the Catholicity of the Orthodox Church the way this person has done.

[Napoletani]

Not exactly sure. I mena, you talk about the Catholic Chruch, just about anybody in the world knows who and what your talking about. But when you bring up Orthododxy, most people who not belong to a particular ethnic group just scratch their heads in confusion. In the sense of UNIVERSAL, the Orthodox Church is about as Catholic as Tesco- it's in a lot of places, but you wouldn't know about unless you either grew up with it or researched it later.

Only someone belonging to the Roman church would insult the Catholicity of the Orthodox Church the way this person has done.

We should invade half of the world and convert them by force to be truly universal 

[J Michael]

Not exactly sure. I mena, you talk about the Catholic Chruch, just about anybody in the world knows who and what your talking about. But when you bring up Orthododxy, most people who not belong to a particular ethnic group just scratch their heads in confusion. In the sense of UNIVERSAL, the Orthodox Church is about as Catholic as Tesco- it's in a lot of places, but you wouldn't know about unless you either grew up with it or researched it later.

Only someone belonging to the Roman church would insult the Catholicity of the Orthodox Church the way this person has done.

He doesn't "belong to the Roman church".  He is a Byzantine (Eastern) Catholic who is in communion with Rome.  If you take his comments as an insult, I suggest you are hyper-sensitive.  From what I can tell, too, he is correct. 

[choy]

Not exactly sure. I mena, you talk about the Catholic Chruch, just about anybody in the world knows who and what your talking about. But when you bring up Orthododxy, most people who not belong to a particular ethnic group just scratch their heads in confusion. In the sense of UNIVERSAL, the Orthodox Church is about as Catholic as Tesco- it's in a lot of places, but you wouldn't know about unless you either grew up with it or researched it later.

Only someone belonging to the Roman church would insult the Catholicity of the Orthodox Church the way this person has done.

He doesn't "belong to the Roman church".  He is a Byzantine (Eastern) Catholic who is in communion with Rome.  If you take his comments as an insult, I suggest you are hyper-sensitive.  From what I can tell, too, he is correct. 

So he does belong to the Roman Church

[J Michael]

Not exactly sure. I mena, you talk about the Catholic Chruch, just about anybody in the world knows who and what your talking about. But when you bring up Orthododxy, most people who not belong to a particular ethnic group just scratch their heads in confusion. In the sense of UNIVERSAL, the Orthodox Church is about as Catholic as Tesco- it's in a lot of places, but you wouldn't know about unless you either grew up with it or researched it later.

Only someone belonging to the Roman church would insult the Catholicity of the Orthodox Church the way this person has done.

He doesn't "belong to the Roman church".  He is a Byzantine (Eastern) Catholic who is in communion with Rome.  If you take his comments as an insult, I suggest you are hyper-sensitive.  From what I can tell, too, he is correct. 

So he does belong to the Roman Church

   Whatever...(I guess, then, so do you until you are chrismated in the OC.) 

[Peter J]

Not exactly sure. I mena, you talk about the Catholic Chruch, just about anybody in the world knows who and what your talking about. But when you bring up Orthododxy, most people who not belong to a particular ethnic group just scratch their heads in confusion. In the sense of UNIVERSAL, the Orthodox Church is about as Catholic as Tesco- it's in a lot of places, but you wouldn't know about unless you either grew up with it or researched it later.

Only someone belonging to the Roman church would insult the Catholicity of the Orthodox Church the way this person has done.

He doesn't "belong to the Roman church".  He is a Byzantine (Eastern) Catholic who is in communion with Rome.  If you take his comments as an insult, I suggest you are hyper-sensitive.  From what I can tell, too, he is correct. 

So he does belong to the Roman Church

Half-right. He belongs to the Roman Communion.

[ialmisry]

Not exactly sure. I mena, you talk about the Catholic Chruch, just about anybody in the world knows who and what your talking about. But when you bring up Orthododxy, most people who not belong to a particular ethnic group just scratch their heads in confusion. In the sense of UNIVERSAL, the Orthodox Church is about as Catholic as Tesco- it's in a lot of places, but you wouldn't know about unless you either grew up with it or researched it later.

you basing that on extensive research around the world, or just on your prejudice?

Brave words from someone for whom the vast majority of his coreligionists have no idea of the existence of his "sui juris" ecclesial community.

[choy]

Not exactly sure. I mena, you talk about the Catholic Chruch, just about anybody in the world knows who and what your talking about. But when you bring up Orthododxy, most people who not belong to a particular ethnic group just scratch their heads in confusion. In the sense of UNIVERSAL, the Orthodox Church is about as Catholic as Tesco- it's in a lot of places, but you wouldn't know about unless you either grew up with it or researched it later.

Only someone belonging to the Roman church would insult the Catholicity of the Orthodox Church the way this person has done.

He doesn't "belong to the Roman church".  He is a Byzantine (Eastern) Catholic who is in communion with Rome.  If you take his comments as an insult, I suggest you are hyper-sensitive.  From what I can tell, too, he is correct.  

So he does belong to the Roman Church

   Whatever...(I guess, then, so do you until you are chrismated in the OC.)  

Nope, by virtue of my being accepted as a Catechumen, I am already a Roman Apostate

SELF ANATHEMA! 

[J Michael]

Not exactly sure. I mena, you talk about the Catholic Chruch, just about anybody in the world knows who and what your talking about. But when you bring up Orthododxy, most people who not belong to a particular ethnic group just scratch their heads in confusion. In the sense of UNIVERSAL, the Orthodox Church is about as Catholic as Tesco- it's in a lot of places, but you wouldn't know about unless you either grew up with it or researched it later.

Only someone belonging to the Roman church would insult the Catholicity of the Orthodox Church the way this person has done.

He doesn't "belong to the Roman church".  He is a Byzantine (Eastern) Catholic who is in communion with Rome.  If you take his comments as an insult, I suggest you are hyper-sensitive.  From what I can tell, too, he is correct. 

So he does belong to the Roman Church

Half-right. He belongs to the Roman Communion.

Thank you!

[choy]

Not exactly sure. I mena, you talk about the Catholic Chruch, just about anybody in the world knows who and what your talking about. But when you bring up Orthododxy, most people who not belong to a particular ethnic group just scratch their heads in confusion. In the sense of UNIVERSAL, the Orthodox Church is about as Catholic as Tesco- it's in a lot of places, but you wouldn't know about unless you either grew up with it or researched it later.

Only someone belonging to the Roman church would insult the Catholicity of the Orthodox Church the way this person has done.

He doesn't "belong to the Roman church".  He is a Byzantine (Eastern) Catholic who is in communion with Rome.  If you take his comments as an insult, I suggest you are hyper-sensitive.  From what I can tell, too, he is correct. 

So he does belong to the Roman Church

Half-right. He belongs to the Roman Communion.

Which does mean he BELONGS to the Roman Church

[J Michael]

Not exactly sure. I mena, you talk about the Catholic Chruch, just about anybody in the world knows who and what your talking about. But when you bring up Orthododxy, most people who not belong to a particular ethnic group just scratch their heads in confusion. In the sense of UNIVERSAL, the Orthodox Church is about as Catholic as Tesco- it's in a lot of places, but you wouldn't know about unless you either grew up with it or researched it later.

you basing that on extensive research around the world, or just on your prejudice?

Brave words from someone for whom the vast majority of his coreligionists have no idea of the existence of his "sui juris" ecclesial community.

We Byzantine Catholics can be quite brave.  The fact that our "...coreligionists have no idea of the existence of..." our "...sui iuris ecclesial community." is irrelevant to how many people who are not Orthodox or do not live in mainly Orthodox countries are aware of the existence of Orthodoxy.  Besides, it's a pretty stupid thing to argue about, imho.

[J Michael]

Not exactly sure. I mena, you talk about the Catholic Chruch, just about anybody in the world knows who and what your talking about. But when you bring up Orthododxy, most people who not belong to a particular ethnic group just scratch their heads in confusion. In the sense of UNIVERSAL, the Orthodox Church is about as Catholic as Tesco- it's in a lot of places, but you wouldn't know about unless you either grew up with it or researched it later.

Only someone belonging to the Roman church would insult the Catholicity of the Orthodox Church the way this person has done.

He doesn't "belong to the Roman church".  He is a Byzantine (Eastern) Catholic who is in communion with Rome.  If you take his comments as an insult, I suggest you are hyper-sensitive.  From what I can tell, too, he is correct. 

So he does belong to the Roman Church

Half-right. He belongs to the Roman Communion.

Which does mean he BELONGS to the Roman Church

    Like I said...WHATEVER...

I am Byzantine Catholic.  I consider my self to be an Eastern Catholic Christian in communion with Rome.  If you or anybody else wants to say that I "belong" to the Roman Church, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.   Because, at the end of the day, I belong to God (though I don't always act like it  .)

[choy]

  Like I said...WHATEVER...

I am Byzantine Catholic.  I consider my self to be an Eastern Catholic Christian in communion with Rome.  If you or anybody else wants to say that I "belong" to the Roman Church, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.   Because, at the end of the day, I belong to God (though I don't always act like it  .)

Even with my short time as an EC, I quickly realized that we all have "Property of the Vatican" stamped on our rear ends.  You are just fooling yourselves if you believe otherwise.  You do not have the same ecclesiology as the Orthodox, ECs are not separate Churches, they are not even separate jurisdictions.  They are under the Roman Curia.  When the Pope summons his bishops, the Patriarchs show up along with other diocesan RC bishops from around the world.  Patriarchs and Major Archbishops are not the equals of the Pope.

[J Michael]

  Like I said...WHATEVER...

I am Byzantine Catholic.  I consider my self to be an Eastern Catholic Christian in communion with Rome.  If you or anybody else wants to say that I "belong" to the Roman Church, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.   Because, at the end of the day, I belong to God (though I don't always act like it  .)

Even with my short time as an EC, I quickly realized that we all have "Property of the Vatican" stamped on our rear ends.  You are just fooling yourselves if you believe otherwise.  You do not have the same ecclesiology as the Orthodox, ECs are not separate Churches, they are not even separate jurisdictions.  They are under the Roman Curia.  When the Pope summons his bishops, the Patriarchs show up along with other diocesan RC bishops from around the world.  Patriarchs and Major Archbishops are not the equals of the Pope.

Like I said...frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.    I, for one, do not have a problem with that.  Because, at the end of the day, I belong to God (though I don't always act like it   .)

[choy]

  Like I said...WHATEVER...

I am Byzantine Catholic.  I consider my self to be an Eastern Catholic Christian in communion with Rome.  If you or anybody else wants to say that I "belong" to the Roman Church, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.   Because, at the end of the day, I belong to God (though I don't always act like it  .)

Even with my short time as an EC, I quickly realized that we all have "Property of the Vatican" stamped on our rear ends.  You are just fooling yourselves if you believe otherwise.  You do not have the same ecclesiology as the Orthodox, ECs are not separate Churches, they are not even separate jurisdictions.  They are under the Roman Curia.  When the Pope summons his bishops, the Patriarchs show up along with other diocesan RC bishops from around the world.  Patriarchs and Major Archbishops are not the equals of the Pope.

Like I said...frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.    I, for one, do not have a problem with that.  Because, at the end of the day, I belong to God (though I don't always act like it   .)

According to Unam Sanctam, you have to belong to the Pope to be saved
As a Catholic, you have to believe in that.

[J Michael]

 Like I said...WHATEVER...

I am Byzantine Catholic.  I consider my self to be an Eastern Catholic Christian in communion with Rome.  If you or anybody else wants to say that I "belong" to the Roman Church, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.  Because, at the end of the day, I belong to God (though I don't always act like it  .)

Even with my short time as an EC, I quickly realized that we all have "Property of the Vatican" stamped on our rear ends.  You are just fooling yourselves if you believe otherwise.  You do not have the same ecclesiology as the Orthodox, ECs are not separate Churches, they are not even separate jurisdictions.  They are under the Roman Curia.  When the Pope summons his bishops, the Patriarchs show up along with other diocesan RC bishops from around the world.  Patriarchs and Major Archbishops are not the equals of the Pope.

Like I said...frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.    I, for one, do not have a problem with that.  Because, at the end of the day, I belong to God (though I don't always act like it   .)

According to Unam Sanctam, you have to belong to the Pope to be saved
As a Catholic, you have to believe in that.

I think, at least in my case, it'll take something greater than just "belonging" to the Pope (which, again  , I don't have a problem with.)---you know, like a lot of God's Grace and my willingness to accept His gift.



(Just out of curiosity, what is it that you're attempting to accomplish with the constant picking?  If I didn't know better [do I, though?], I might surmise [perish the thought!] that you're attempting to somehow justify your self-admitted apostasy  .  But I'm almost certain you're going to tell me I'm wrong about that--which I'm perfectly okay with, btw.  )

[choy]

 Like I said...WHATEVER...

I am Byzantine Catholic.  I consider my self to be an Eastern Catholic Christian in communion with Rome.  If you or anybody else wants to say that I "belong" to the Roman Church, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.  Because, at the end of the day, I belong to God (though I don't always act like it  .)

Even with my short time as an EC, I quickly realized that we all have "Property of the Vatican" stamped on our rear ends.  You are just fooling yourselves if you believe otherwise.  You do not have the same ecclesiology as the Orthodox, ECs are not separate Churches, they are not even separate jurisdictions.  They are under the Roman Curia.  When the Pope summons his bishops, the Patriarchs show up along with other diocesan RC bishops from around the world.  Patriarchs and Major Archbishops are not the equals of the Pope.

Like I said...frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.    I, for one, do not have a problem with that.  Because, at the end of the day, I belong to God (though I don't always act like it   .)

According to Unam Sanctam, you have to belong to the Pope to be saved
As a Catholic, you have to believe in that.

I think, at least in my case, it'll take something greater than just "belonging" to the Pope (which, again  , I don't have a problem with.)---you know, like a lot of God's Grace and my willingness to accept His gift.



(Just out of curiosity, what is it that you're attempting to accomplish with the constant picking?  If I didn't know better [do I, though?], I might surmise [perish the thought!] that you're attempting to somehow justify your self-admitted apostasy  .  But I'm almost certain you're going to tell me I'm wrong about that--which I'm perfectly okay with, btw.  )

That is all fine and well.  I'm commenting on the insistence of ECs that, "they are not under the Pope, they are in communion with him," and that the Pope doesn't run their Church.  Both false claims.

[J Michael]

 Like I said...WHATEVER...

I am Byzantine Catholic.  I consider my self to be an Eastern Catholic Christian in communion with Rome.  If you or anybody else wants to say that I "belong" to the Roman Church, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.  Because, at the end of the day, I belong to God (though I don't always act like it  .)

Even with my short time as an EC, I quickly realized that we all have "Property of the Vatican" stamped on our rear ends.  You are just fooling yourselves if you believe otherwise.  You do not have the same ecclesiology as the Orthodox, ECs are not separate Churches, they are not even separate jurisdictions.  They are under the Roman Curia.  When the Pope summons his bishops, the Patriarchs show up along with other diocesan RC bishops from around the world.  Patriarchs and Major Archbishops are not the equals of the Pope.

Like I said...frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.    I, for one, do not have a problem with that.  Because, at the end of the day, I belong to God (though I don't always act like it   .)

According to Unam Sanctam, you have to belong to the Pope to be saved
As a Catholic, you have to believe in that.

I think, at least in my case, it'll take something greater than just "belonging" to the Pope (which, again  , I don't have a problem with.)---you know, like a lot of God's Grace and my willingness to accept His gift.



(Just out of curiosity, what is it that you're attempting to accomplish with the constant picking?  If I didn't know better [do I, though?], I might surmise [perish the thought!] that you're attempting to somehow justify your self-admitted apostasy  .  But I'm almost certain you're going to tell me I'm wrong about that--which I'm perfectly okay with, btw.  )

That is all fine and well.  I'm commenting on the insistence of ECs that, "they are not under the Pope, they are in communion with him," and that the Pope doesn't run their Church.  Both false claims.

Have fun.

[ialmisry]

Not exactly sure. I mena, you talk about the Catholic Chruch, just about anybody in the world knows who and what your talking about. But when you bring up Orthododxy, most people who not belong to a particular ethnic group just scratch their heads in confusion. In the sense of UNIVERSAL, the Orthodox Church is about as Catholic as Tesco- it's in a lot of places, but you wouldn't know about unless you either grew up with it or researched it later.

you basing that on extensive research around the world, or just on your prejudice?

Brave words from someone for whom the vast majority of his coreligionists have no idea of the existence of his "sui juris" ecclesial community.

We Byzantine Catholics can be quite brave.

 
Except when it comes to the Roman Curia.

The fact that our "...coreligionists have no idea of the existence of..." our "...sui iuris ecclesial community." is irrelevant to how many people who are not Orthodox or do not live in mainly Orthodox countries are aware of the existence of Orthodoxy.  Besides, it's a pretty stupid thing to argue about, imho.

which is about the same level as worrying about who in the world knows about the Orthodox Church.  Who heard about Our Lord in His lifetime on earth?

A couple of days ago the were interviewing people in New York City about what they thought about the new "Roman pontiff."  And people went into detail their thoughts about the new pope, including one that thought it was cool that he was from the US.  This, in one of the Vatican's largest diocese's in the world, with nearly half of the population at large in the area covered, with a cardinal who is a front runner in the conclave stakes.  Those interviewed included a woman from the Vatican's flock (at least that's what she claimed) who stated she learned about the new pope's election from her parish's facebook.

You might want to worry about what's going on in the depths of that ignorance in the thick of your ecclesial community about that pontifical office you're focused on, before worrying who does or does not know about the Orthodox. Bttw, between the Russian and Greek Orthodox, I'm sure we are comparable with recognition as the sovereign of the Vatican.  Even those who never heard of the Latvian Orthodox Church:

The Church plays a major role in "The Conversion" episode of the popular American television sitcom Seinfeld. The writer of the episode, Bruce Kirschbaum, later revealed that he was unaware when he wrote it that such a church actually existed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Orthodox

[Peter J]

Not exactly sure. I mena, you talk about the Catholic Chruch, just about anybody in the world knows who and what your talking about. But when you bring up Orthododxy, most people who not belong to a particular ethnic group just scratch their heads in confusion. In the sense of UNIVERSAL, the Orthodox Church is about as Catholic as Tesco- it's in a lot of places, but you wouldn't know about unless you either grew up with it or researched it later.

Only someone belonging to the Roman church would insult the Catholicity of the Orthodox Church the way this person has done.

He doesn't "belong to the Roman church".  He is a Byzantine (Eastern) Catholic who is in communion with Rome.  If you take his comments as an insult, I suggest you are hyper-sensitive.  From what I can tell, too, he is correct. 

So he does belong to the Roman Church

Half-right. He belongs to the Roman Communion.

Which does mean he BELONGS to the Roman Church

^Oh, now I get it. You don't mean "belongs" = "is a member of".

  Like I said...WHATEVER...

I am Byzantine Catholic.  I consider my self to be an Eastern Catholic Christian in communion with Rome.  If you or anybody else wants to say that I "belong" to the Roman Church, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.   Because, at the end of the day, I belong to God (though I don't always act like it  .)

Even with my short time as an EC, I quickly realized that we all have "Property of the Vatican" stamped on our rear ends.  You are just fooling yourselves if you believe otherwise.  You do not have the same ecclesiology as the Orthodox, ECs are not separate Churches, they are not even separate jurisdictions.  They are under the Roman Curia.  When the Pope summons his bishops, the Patriarchs show up along with other diocesan RC bishops from around the world.  Patriarchs and Major Archbishops are not the equals of the Pope.

Oh that. It's just a birthmark. And I'll thank you not to stare.

[Peter J]

P.S.

Even with my short time as an EC, I quickly realized that we all have "Property of the Vatican" stamped on our rear ends. 

Oh that. It's just a birthmark. And I'll thank you not to stare.

Caution: Simpsons

[J Michael]

Not exactly sure. I mena, you talk about the Catholic Chruch, just about anybody in the world knows who and what your talking about. But when you bring up Orthododxy, most people who not belong to a particular ethnic group just scratch their heads in confusion. In the sense of UNIVERSAL, the Orthodox Church is about as Catholic as Tesco- it's in a lot of places, but you wouldn't know about unless you either grew up with it or researched it later.

you basing that on extensive research around the world, or just on your prejudice?

Brave words from someone for whom the vast majority of his coreligionists have no idea of the existence of his "sui juris" ecclesial community.

We Byzantine Catholics can be quite brave.

Except when it comes to the Roman Curia.

The fact that our "...coreligionists have no idea of the existence of..." our "...sui iuris ecclesial community." is irrelevant to how many people who are not Orthodox or do not live in mainly Orthodox countries are aware of the existence of Orthodoxy.  Besides, it's a pretty stupid thing to argue about, imho.

which is about the same level as worrying about who in the world knows about the Orthodox Church.  Who heard about Our Lord in His lifetime on earth?

A couple of days ago the were interviewing people in New York City about what they thought about the new "Roman pontiff."  And people went into detail their thoughts about the new pope, including one that thought it was cool that he was from the US.  This, in one of the Vatican's largest diocese's in the world, with nearly half of the population at large in the area covered, with a cardinal who is a front runner in the conclave stakes.  Those interviewed included a woman from the Vatican's flock (at least that's what she claimed) who stated she learned about the new pope's election from her parish's facebook.

You might want to worry about what's going on in the depths of that ignorance in the thick of your ecclesial community about that pontifical office you're focused on, before worrying who does or does not know about the Orthodox. Bttw, between the Russian and Greek Orthodox, I'm sure we are comparable with recognition as the sovereign of the Vatican.  Even those who never heard of the Latvian Orthodox Church:

The Church plays a major role in "The Conversion" episode of the popular American television sitcom Seinfeld. The writer of the episode, Bruce Kirschbaum, later revealed that he was unaware when he wrote it that such a church actually existed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Orthodox

I'll "worry" about what I choose to "worry" about.  My "ecclesial community" Church will manage just fine with or without me and my worries (or yours).  But...thanks for your concern  .

[Peter J]

 Like I said...WHATEVER...

I am Byzantine Catholic.  I consider my self to be an Eastern Catholic Christian in communion with Rome.  If you or anybody else wants to say that I "belong" to the Roman Church, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.  Because, at the end of the day, I belong to God (though I don't always act like it  .)

Even with my short time as an EC, I quickly realized that we all have "Property of the Vatican" stamped on our rear ends.  You are just fooling yourselves if you believe otherwise.  You do not have the same ecclesiology as the Orthodox, ECs are not separate Churches, they are not even separate jurisdictions.  They are under the Roman Curia.  When the Pope summons his bishops, the Patriarchs show up along with other diocesan RC bishops from around the world.  Patriarchs and Major Archbishops are not the equals of the Pope.

Like I said...frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.    I, for one, do not have a problem with that.  Because, at the end of the day, I belong to God (though I don't always act like it   .)

According to Unam Sanctam, you have to belong to the Pope to be saved
As a Catholic, you have to believe in that.

I think, at least in my case, it'll take something greater than just "belonging" to the Pope (which, again  , I don't have a problem with.)---you know, like a lot of God's Grace and my willingness to accept His gift.



(Just out of curiosity, what is it that you're attempting to accomplish with the constant picking?  If I didn't know better [do I, though?], I might surmise [perish the thought!] that you're attempting to somehow justify your self-admitted apostasy  .  But I'm almost certain you're going to tell me I'm wrong about that--which I'm perfectly okay with, btw.  )

That is all fine and well.  I'm commenting on the insistence of ECs that, "they are not under the Pope, they are in communion with him," and that the Pope doesn't run their Church.  Both false claims.

I don't think it's that black-and-white. ECs don't have as much independence as I would like, but still more than WCs -- who are, after all, automatically part of the LC.

[Peter J]

Not exactly sure. I mena, you talk about the Catholic Chruch, just about anybody in the world knows who and what your talking about. But when you bring up Orthododxy, most people who not belong to a particular ethnic group just scratch their heads in confusion. In the sense of UNIVERSAL, the Orthodox Church is about as Catholic as Tesco- it's in a lot of places, but you wouldn't know about unless you either grew up with it or researched it later.

you basing that on extensive research around the world, or just on your prejudice?

Brave words from someone for whom the vast majority of his coreligionists have no idea of the existence of his "sui juris" ecclesial community.

We Byzantine Catholics can be quite brave.

Except when it comes to the Roman Curia.

The fact that our "...coreligionists have no idea of the existence of..." our "...sui iuris ecclesial community." is irrelevant to how many people who are not Orthodox or do not live in mainly Orthodox countries are aware of the existence of Orthodoxy.  Besides, it's a pretty stupid thing to argue about, imho.

which is about the same level as worrying about who in the world knows about the Orthodox Church.  Who heard about Our Lord in His lifetime on earth?

A couple of days ago the were interviewing people in New York City about what they thought about the new "Roman pontiff."  And people went into detail their thoughts about the new pope, including one that thought it was cool that he was from the US. 

I saw some of that. Basically just copycatting Jay Leno's "Jaywalking".

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