Author Topic: Public Liturgy of the Hours  (Read 807 times)

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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Public Liturgy of the Hours
« on: March 11, 2013, 05:16:10 PM »
As I understand it, most Roman Catholic parishes (at least in the U.S.) Do not serve the daily services (i.e., the Liturgy of the Hours). As an Orthodox Christian, this is really strange to me, as Vespers (and hopefully, also Matins) are staples in daily services as well as for important feast days and Sundays (many Orthodox say "Sunday begins at the Vigil!", the aggregation of the 9th hour, Vespers, Matins and the 1st hour into a single service on Saturday night...served mostly in the Russian tradition today).

I know they are sometimes served because I had friends in Rome on Candlemas, and they shared with me photos from the Vespers for the feast, with Pope Benedict serving. However, that seems to be an exception, as my understanding is that now if the Liturgy of the Hours is served, it's a private devotion instead of public worship services. When did that change occur and why?
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Offline TheMathematician

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Re: Public Liturgy of the Hours
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2013, 05:27:35 PM »
As I understand it, most Roman Catholic parishes (at least in the U.S.) Do not serve the daily services (i.e., the Liturgy of the Hours). As an Orthodox Christian, this is really strange to me, as Vespers (and hopefully, also Matins) are staples in daily services as well as for important feast days and Sundays (many Orthodox say "Sunday begins at the Vigil!", the aggregation of the 9th hour, Vespers, Matins and the 1st hour into a single service on Saturday night...served mostly in the Russian tradition today).

I know they are sometimes served because I had friends in Rome on Candlemas, and they shared with me photos from the Vespers for the feast, with Pope Benedict serving. However, that seems to be an exception, as my understanding is that now if the Liturgy of the Hours is served, it's a private devotion instead of public worship services. When did that change occur and why?

I cant exactly answer to the when and why, but all clergy are expected to serve the Liturgy of the Hours, (deacons major hours, and priests and above all of them(

Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Public Liturgy of the Hours
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2013, 05:35:59 PM »
As I understand it, most Roman Catholic parishes (at least in the U.S.) Do not serve the daily services (i.e., the Liturgy of the Hours). As an Orthodox Christian, this is really strange to me, as Vespers (and hopefully, also Matins) are staples in daily services as well as for important feast days and Sundays (many Orthodox say "Sunday begins at the Vigil!", the aggregation of the 9th hour, Vespers, Matins and the 1st hour into a single service on Saturday night...served mostly in the Russian tradition today).

I know they are sometimes served because I had friends in Rome on Candlemas, and they shared with me photos from the Vespers for the feast, with Pope Benedict serving. However, that seems to be an exception, as my understanding is that now if the Liturgy of the Hours is served, it's a private devotion instead of public worship services. When did that change occur and why?

I cant exactly answer to the when and why, but all clergy are expected to serve the Liturgy of the Hours, (deacons major hours, and priests and above all of them(

I've heard that, and I think that's wonderful...but only adds to my confusion. If they are canonically supposed to serve them every day, why don't they go to the church, open it up, and serve them publicly?

To my knowledge this isn't done.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 05:36:15 PM by Benjamin the Red »
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Offline biro

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Re: Public Liturgy of the Hours
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2013, 05:43:34 PM »
It is done at some RCC parishes. It's up to the parish. The Hours are only mandatory each day for priests, monks and nuns. Laypeople can say them in church or at home if they wish, but they don't have to.

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Re: Public Liturgy of the Hours
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2013, 10:34:07 PM »
As I understand it, most Roman Catholic parishes (at least in the U.S.) Do not serve the daily services (i.e., the Liturgy of the Hours). As an Orthodox Christian, this is really strange to me, as Vespers (and hopefully, also Matins) are staples in daily services as well as for important feast days and Sundays (many Orthodox say "Sunday begins at the Vigil!", the aggregation of the 9th hour, Vespers, Matins and the 1st hour into a single service on Saturday night...served mostly in the Russian tradition today).

I know they are sometimes served because I had friends in Rome on Candlemas, and they shared with me photos from the Vespers for the feast, with Pope Benedict serving. However, that seems to be an exception, as my understanding is that now if the Liturgy of the Hours is served, it's a private devotion instead of public worship services. When did that change occur and why?

I see you list ACROD as one of your jurisdictions.  Perhaps you should inquire as to why 95% of their parishes and many of the OCA parishes as well do not have utrenijya.  In fact ACROD mostly sings para-liturgical hymns during the incensing at the beginning of liturgy which is actually the incensing that is to be done at the end of utrenijya. 

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Re: Public Liturgy of the Hours
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2013, 10:34:56 PM »
while not evening song by any means the local RCC does the chaplet of divine mercy at 3pm daily.

Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Public Liturgy of the Hours
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2013, 10:48:24 PM »
As I understand it, most Roman Catholic parishes (at least in the U.S.) Do not serve the daily services (i.e., the Liturgy of the Hours). As an Orthodox Christian, this is really strange to me, as Vespers (and hopefully, also Matins) are staples in daily services as well as for important feast days and Sundays (many Orthodox say "Sunday begins at the Vigil!", the aggregation of the 9th hour, Vespers, Matins and the 1st hour into a single service on Saturday night...served mostly in the Russian tradition today).

I know they are sometimes served because I had friends in Rome on Candlemas, and they shared with me photos from the Vespers for the feast, with Pope Benedict serving. However, that seems to be an exception, as my understanding is that now if the Liturgy of the Hours is served, it's a private devotion instead of public worship services. When did that change occur and why?

I see you list ACROD as one of your jurisdictions.  Perhaps you should inquire as to why 95% of their parishes and many of the OCA parishes as well do not have utrenijya.  In fact ACROD mostly sings para-liturgical hymns during the incensing at the beginning of liturgy which is actually the incensing that is to be done at the end of utrenijya. 

I'm sorry, but I'm not familiar with the term "utrenijya."

Help a convert out?
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Offline LBK

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Re: Public Liturgy of the Hours
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2013, 10:53:42 PM »
As I understand it, most Roman Catholic parishes (at least in the U.S.) Do not serve the daily services (i.e., the Liturgy of the Hours). As an Orthodox Christian, this is really strange to me, as Vespers (and hopefully, also Matins) are staples in daily services as well as for important feast days and Sundays (many Orthodox say "Sunday begins at the Vigil!", the aggregation of the 9th hour, Vespers, Matins and the 1st hour into a single service on Saturday night...served mostly in the Russian tradition today).

I know they are sometimes served because I had friends in Rome on Candlemas, and they shared with me photos from the Vespers for the feast, with Pope Benedict serving. However, that seems to be an exception, as my understanding is that now if the Liturgy of the Hours is served, it's a private devotion instead of public worship services. When did that change occur and why?

I see you list ACROD as one of your jurisdictions.  Perhaps you should inquire as to why 95% of their parishes and many of the OCA parishes as well do not have utrenijya.  In fact ACROD mostly sings para-liturgical hymns during the incensing at the beginning of liturgy which is actually the incensing that is to be done at the end of utrenijya. 

I'm sorry, but I'm not familiar with the term "utrenijya."

Help a convert out?

Matins.  :) Vespers is vecherniya.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Public Liturgy of the Hours
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2013, 11:23:27 PM »
As I understand it, most Roman Catholic parishes (at least in the U.S.) Do not serve the daily services (i.e., the Liturgy of the Hours). As an Orthodox Christian, this is really strange to me, as Vespers (and hopefully, also Matins) are staples in daily services as well as for important feast days and Sundays (many Orthodox say "Sunday begins at the Vigil!", the aggregation of the 9th hour, Vespers, Matins and the 1st hour into a single service on Saturday night...served mostly in the Russian tradition today).

I know they are sometimes served because I had friends in Rome on Candlemas, and they shared with me photos from the Vespers for the feast, with Pope Benedict serving. However, that seems to be an exception, as my understanding is that now if the Liturgy of the Hours is served, it's a private devotion instead of public worship services. When did that change occur and why?

I see you list ACROD as one of your jurisdictions.  Perhaps you should inquire as to why 95% of their parishes and many of the OCA parishes as well do not have utrenijya.  In fact ACROD mostly sings para-liturgical hymns during the incensing at the beginning of liturgy which is actually the incensing that is to be done at the end of utrenijya. 

Nor do all UOCUSA parishes have Utrenja.

Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Public Liturgy of the Hours
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2013, 11:48:56 PM »
Thank you both! I will log those terms in my brain. :)

I actually have spoken to my priest from ACROD about Matins. He is a convert from the LC(MS) (via the Anglicans) and he told me he has served Matins each day of his "priestly" life, even before being Orthodox. When he approached Metropolitan Nicholas to get a blessing to continue to do so, the Metropolitan told him, "But...no one serves Matins anymore!"

Though, he did bless this priest to do so, and he does. Including Sunday Matins, before anyone shows up and before he served the Proskomede.I don't know why Metropolitan Nicholas would be of that opinion, and I didn't ask. Though, I think it's very much a shame. I'm also quite sad that many OCA parishes do not serve a full Vigil. I'm thankful that I was received in a parish that served Vigil, and that my parish now also does.

I've heard the rationale that some parishes (usually young missions) lack the people/skill/music to perform a full Vigil. I'm not certain I buy that, however. I live an hour an a half from my parish, and we rarely attend their Vigil service, but I live with three other Orthodox and we maintain a chapel in which we regularly conduct reader's services, including a Vigil every Saturday night (and on feast days). We are able to do so perfectly well with little formal training in church music (one of us has self-taught Byzantine chant with the workshop on Ancient Faith) and with free resources we've found from Orthodox sources online.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Public Liturgy of the Hours
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2013, 10:47:18 AM »
Thank you both! I will log those terms in my brain. :)

I actually have spoken to my priest from ACROD about Matins. He is a convert from the LC(MS) (via the Anglicans) and he told me he has served Matins each day of his "priestly" life, even before being Orthodox. When he approached Metropolitan Nicholas to get a blessing to continue to do so, the Metropolitan told him, "But...no one serves Matins anymore!"

Though, he did bless this priest to do so, and he does. Including Sunday Matins, before anyone shows up and before he served the Proskomede.I don't know why Metropolitan Nicholas would be of that opinion, and I didn't ask. Though, I think it's very much a shame. I'm also quite sad that many OCA parishes do not serve a full Vigil. I'm thankful that I was received in a parish that served Vigil, and that my parish now also does.

I've heard the rationale that some parishes (usually young missions) lack the people/skill/music to perform a full Vigil. I'm not certain I buy that, however. I live an hour an a half from my parish, and we rarely attend their Vigil service, but I live with three other Orthodox and we maintain a chapel in which we regularly conduct reader's services, including a Vigil every Saturday night (and on feast days). We are able to do so perfectly well with little formal training in church music (one of us has self-taught Byzantine chant with the workshop on Ancient Faith) and with free resources we've found from Orthodox sources online.

It is a poor excuse, but in the Rusyn chant tradition, the eight tones of the Matins  are difficult to master. They are not analogous to the more widely known among the faithful Vesperal tones. Trained cantors typically were graduates of either the Presov or Uzhorod Academies. Since these were Greek Catholic institutions when the faithful moved to Orthodoxy, the talent pool dried up as clerical vocations became the priority in America. As English transplanted Slavonic little if any efforts were directed to transcribing the Matins - Liturgy and the Troparion tones were the first priority, followed by Vespers . Gradually, the Matins and Slavonic died out with the old cantors during the 1980's. We stopped in 1984 when our old country trained cantor reposed.

Vespers survived as its tones were known since they were tied to some of the chant liturgical responses and made there way into English earlier. (An example is the Otce Nas/Our Father which is often chanted to a vesperal tones, tones 2, 3 and 5 being the most common.)

Fortunately there has been something of a revival in recent years led in part by our BCC cousins through their Cantor training program in Pittsburgh. The tones for Matins are now online.

http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/RecordedMusic.html.

Metropolitan Nicholas gave his blessing for interested faithful to participate in this program. A revival of sorts is underway. Baby steps, but like baby steps, important ones for the future.


Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Public Liturgy of the Hours
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2013, 12:05:56 PM »
Thank you both! I will log those terms in my brain. :)

I actually have spoken to my priest from ACROD about Matins. He is a convert from the LC(MS) (via the Anglicans) and he told me he has served Matins each day of his "priestly" life, even before being Orthodox. When he approached Metropolitan Nicholas to get a blessing to continue to do so, the Metropolitan told him, "But...no one serves Matins anymore!"

Though, he did bless this priest to do so, and he does. Including Sunday Matins, before anyone shows up and before he served the Proskomede.I don't know why Metropolitan Nicholas would be of that opinion, and I didn't ask. Though, I think it's very much a shame. I'm also quite sad that many OCA parishes do not serve a full Vigil. I'm thankful that I was received in a parish that served Vigil, and that my parish now also does.

I've heard the rationale that some parishes (usually young missions) lack the people/skill/music to perform a full Vigil. I'm not certain I buy that, however. I live an hour an a half from my parish, and we rarely attend their Vigil service, but I live with three other Orthodox and we maintain a chapel in which we regularly conduct reader's services, including a Vigil every Saturday night (and on feast days). We are able to do so perfectly well with little formal training in church music (one of us has self-taught Byzantine chant with the workshop on Ancient Faith) and with free resources we've found from Orthodox sources online.

It is a poor excuse, but in the Rusyn chant tradition, the eight tones of the Matins  are difficult to master. They are not analogous to the more widely known among the faithful Vesperal tones. Trained cantors typically were graduates of either the Presov or Uzhorod Academies. Since these were Greek Catholic institutions when the faithful moved to Orthodoxy, the talent pool dried up as clerical vocations became the priority in America. As English transplanted Slavonic little if any efforts were directed to transcribing the Matins - Liturgy and the Troparion tones were the first priority, followed by Vespers . Gradually, the Matins and Slavonic died out with the old cantors during the 1980's. We stopped in 1984 when our old country trained cantor reposed.

Vespers survived as its tones were known since they were tied to some of the chant liturgical responses and made there way into English earlier. (An example is the Otce Nas/Our Father which is often chanted to a vesperal tones, tones 2, 3 and 5 being the most common.)

Fortunately there has been something of a revival in recent years led in part by our BCC cousins through their Cantor training program in Pittsburgh. The tones for Matins are now online.

http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/RecordedMusic.html.

Metropolitan Nicholas gave his blessing for interested faithful to participate in this program. A revival of sorts is underway. Baby steps, but like baby steps, important ones for the future.



It's good to know that the Metropolitan Cantor Institute has transcribed the Matins tones! I didn't know that had happened. As far as I knew, they existed only in Slavonic. Glory to God!
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy