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Author Topic: The De-Glorification of Saints? / 36 martyr-saints decanonized by Moscow Patriarchate  (Read 2032 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kissel
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« on: February 01, 2013, 11:39:02 PM »

There is a report* that 36 people have been de-glorified by the Moscow Patriarchate. I can't verify since I can't read Russian--can anyone else? Thoughts on this?



*Yes, I know the site has a particular p.o.v. and people could argue that it's biased, but if it's true, what do you think of the idea?
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« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2013, 11:43:18 PM »

The council that glorified the new martyrs in the Moscow Patriarchate did have a lot of research behind it. But apparently controversy continues. And the blog is of the persuasion that loves controversy.
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« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2013, 11:44:01 PM »

St. Anne of Kashin?

edit:

I've heard at least in some of the cases made in the OP poor historic research was the reason. People died in the 70. due to old age cannot be called Stalinist martyrs.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 11:45:25 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2013, 01:16:54 AM »

St Anna Kashinskaya was removed from Russian church calendars for a short time (the reasons were quite odd, IIRC), but she was reinstated, and remains a proclaimed Orthodox saint.


I've heard at least in some of the cases made in the OP poor historic research was the reason. People died in the 70. due to old age cannot be called Stalinist martyrs.

Then they would be called Confessors if they did not die as martyrs.

I would also give little credibility to the site which published the "delisted" saints.
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2013, 02:22:25 AM »

St Anna Kashinskaya was removed from Russian church calendars for a short time (the reasons were quite odd, IIRC), but she was reinstated, and remains a proclaimed Orthodox saint.

But she was removed, wasn't she?

Then they would be called Confessors if they did not die as martyrs.

IMO there is a problem when a life of Saint and reality cross over in 40 years regarding death time.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 02:23:20 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2013, 02:45:10 AM »

St Anna Kashinskaya was removed from Russian church calendars for a short time (the reasons were quite odd, IIRC), but she was reinstated, and remains a proclaimed Orthodox saint.

But she was removed, wasn't she?

On the matter of the veneration of St Anna Kashinskaya:

Quote
In 1677 Patriarch Joachim proposed to the Moscow Council that the veneration of St Anna of Kashin (October 2) throughout Russia should be discontinued because of the Old Believers Schism, which made use of the name of St Anna of Kashin for its own purposes. When she was buried her hand had been positioned to make the Sign of the Cross with two fingers, rather than three. Therefore, only local veneration of St Anna was permitted.

However, the memory of St Anna, who had received a crown of glory from Christ, could not be erased by decree. People continued to love and venerate her, and many miracles took place at her tomb.

On June 12, 1909 her second glorification took place, and her universally observed Feast day was established. Her Life describes her as a model of spiritual beauty and chastity, and an example to future generations.

Source: http://oca.org/FeastSaintsLife.asp?FSID=101699

So it is clear that her removal from the calendar was ecclesiopolitical, and had nothing to do with her sanctity.


IMO there is a problem when a life of Saint and reality cross over in 40 years regarding death time.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.  Huh
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« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2013, 02:50:41 AM »

I think he means, as in the case of people being regarded as victims of Stalinism when they died of old age in the 1970s (i.e., long after Stalin's time), there are some saints for whom their biography is suspect when such basic details as the decade of their death is wildly inaccurate.
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« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2013, 03:05:36 AM »

To be included in the assembly of the Russian New Martyrs and confessors means that the person was persecuted for their faith by the Soviet/Bolshevik regime, of which Stalin was one of its several leaders. The list is not restricted to the years 1924-1953, otherwise saints such as Patriarch Tikhon of Moscow, Metropolitan Benjamin of Petrograd, Elizabeth the Grand Duchess and her fellow martyrs at Alapayevsk, and many others who were persecuted and/or martyred before 1924 and after 1953 would be excluded. Which they clearly are not, nor should they be.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 03:09:32 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2013, 03:52:58 AM »

The council that glorified the new martyrs in the Moscow Patriarchate did have a lot of research behind it. But apparently controversy continues. And the blog is of the persuasion that loves controversy.
Yes, there have been a few figures controversial on OC.net who have contributed to that news service. However, our site owner is also a current NFTU contributor, and hardly anyone thinks him controversial.
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« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2013, 01:31:43 PM »

The council that glorified the new martyrs in the Moscow Patriarchate did have a lot of research behind it. But apparently controversy continues. And the blog is of the persuasion that loves controversy.
Yes, there have been a few figures controversial on OC.net who have contributed to that news service. However, our site owner is also a current NFTU contributor, and hardly anyone thinks him controversial.

Look! A penguin!
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« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2013, 02:32:11 PM »

To be included in the assembly of the Russian New Martyrs and confessors means that the person was persecuted for their faith by the Soviet/Bolshevik regime, of which Stalin was one of its several leaders. The list is not restricted to the years 1924-1953, otherwise saints such as Patriarch Tikhon of Moscow, Metropolitan Benjamin of Petrograd, Elizabeth the Grand Duchess and her fellow martyrs at Alapayevsk, and many others who were persecuted and/or martyred before 1924 and after 1953 would be excluded. Which they clearly are not, nor should they be.

Oh my do you really thing that richer than Christ Himself philantropist, Șt Elizabeth the New Martyr died bc she Was Orthodox ? Granted there Was something  tragic about how she ended but it Wasn't  bc  of her faith.
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« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2013, 02:43:09 PM »

Oh my do you really thing that richer than Christ Himself philantropist, Șt Elizabeth the New Martyr died bc she Was Orthodox ? Granted there Was something  tragic about how she ended but it Wasn't  bc  of her faith.

Many Saints were richer than Christ. Being a philanthropist is not incompatible with Christianity, quite the contrary. She died because the Bolsheviks murdered her. She preserved her Christian faith heroically to the end. That should be reason enough for us to venerate her.
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« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2013, 02:54:10 PM »

For what I ca's you can venerAte the lady, but you cannot say she died for her faith. She died because she was  a member of the former ruling class in the wrong place at a critical time of the civil war.
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« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2013, 03:04:00 PM »

For what I ca's you can venerAte the lady, but you cannot say she died for her faith. She died because she was  a member of the former ruling class in the wrong place at a critical time of the civil war.

The important point is that she died with her faith, in circumstances which would have made most people doubt or forsake it.

Curious how even the most scelerate and atrocious of murders can be made to sound so impersonal and readily excusable by some! 
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« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2013, 06:05:12 PM »

If the martyrs of Alapayevsk weren't killed at least in part for their faith, as opposed to their aristocracy (and then, why kill St. Barbara who wasn't an aristocrat? Or the Tsar's doctor and servants?), why did the murderers throw grenades down the mine shaft when the martyrs started singing the Cherubic Hymn, to shut them up? There was no possibility of their survival anyway.

Why, also, kill those who prevented the desecration of relics? Why blow up churches? Why start school every day with, "Good morning, children, there is no God?"
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« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2013, 06:25:40 PM »

^None of these were killed for being Orthodox. The servants were killed, I imagine, because they knew too much or within those conditions of advancing White armies and of the Czech Legion that destroyed many local soviets in the Urals and Siberia-there was no time and conditions for a most humane and just treatment. Anyways do not imagine that the Whites, when while carrying the Cross etc, were behaving better to their enemies real and perceived. Actually it's arguable they behaved even worse and so they lost the trust of the local population.
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« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2013, 08:27:27 PM »

^None of these were killed for being Orthodox. The servants were killed, I imagine, because they knew too much or within those conditions of advancing White armies and of the Czech Legion that destroyed many local soviets in the Urals and Siberia-there was no time and conditions for a most humane and just treatment. Anyways do not imagine that the Whites, when while carrying the Cross etc, were behaving better to their enemies real and perceived. Actually it's arguable they behaved even worse and so they lost the trust of the local population.
So the reasons they were killed were reasons only you can imagine? No thank you. I think I'll stick to greater authorities than yourself.
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« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2013, 08:30:07 PM »

^None of these were killed for being Orthodox. The servants were killed, I imagine, because they knew too much or within those conditions of advancing White armies and of the Czech Legion that destroyed many local soviets in the Urals and Siberia-there was no time and conditions for a most humane and just treatment. Anyways do not imagine that the Whites, when while carrying the Cross etc, were behaving better to their enemies real and perceived. Actually it's arguable they behaved even worse and so they lost the trust of the local population.
So the reasons they were killed were reasons only you can imagine? No thank you. I think I'll stick to greater authorities than yourself.
Peter you have a well established reputation around here for just not getting it. Don't ruin it. Wink
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« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2013, 12:59:44 AM »

Actually, this should not come as a surprise since it was announced back in 2007 that ROC and ROCOR were going to be working on a common martyrology and it was said by ROC that ROCOR had made errors in its canonization of new martyrs.

Quote
21 June 2007, 14:52
The Moscow Patriarchate and the ROCOR to start composing common martyr list next month


Moscow, June 21, Interfax - The Moscow Patriarchate and the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia plan to start composing a common list of new saints, martyred by the Bolsheviks, in July 2007.

'The ROCOR has canonized many new martyrs without clear evidence that they were really martyred for their faith, such as interrogation or execution protocols. That could result in some mistakes,' the St. Petersburg Central State Archive official Mikhail Shkarovsky told the participants of the conference on Christianity, Culture and Moral Values in Moscow on Thursday.
 Source: http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=3223

 
Quote
29 August 2007, 16:53
Moscow Patriarchate and Russian Church Outside Russia can compile single list of new martyrs already within a year - Canonization Commission




 Because of this ‘reversed’ order of canonization in the Church Outside Russia some oddities happened, the priest related. For instance, canonized together with the royal family were some of their servants of non-Orthodox faith.

‘If in compiling a single list, some disputable points arise, the name under question will not be included in our list. But no formal procedure of de-canonization will be pursued’, Father Georgy said.


Source: http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=3555

Here are excerpts from the Report of the Holy Synod Commission on the Canonization of Saints With Respect to the Martyrdom of the Imperial Family that was issued in 1996.
Quote

...And what could be said of the unprecedented historical analogy, from the Orthodox point of view, of the decision of the Synod Abroad to include among those canonized with the Royal Family, the martyred czar's servant the Roman Catholic Alois Yegorovich Trupp and court-tutor the Lutheran Yekaterina Adol'fovna Schneider.

...The Commission came to the conclusion that a very appropriate way of honoring the Christian feats of the Royal Family's loyal servants who shared in their tragic fate, would be to immortalize this feat in the written lives of the Royal martyrs. Thus, at the present time the violent death suffered by these laymen as a result of their carrying out of their moral duty to the Royal Family cannot be presumed to be a martyr's death for confessing the Christian faith. Source: http://www.holy-trinity.org/feasts/nicholas.html

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« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2013, 02:31:22 AM »

The Moscow Patriarchate classifies the Russian imperial family as passion-bearers, ROCOR as royal martyrs. Both regard them as saints. The rest is just semantics.
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« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2013, 02:41:21 AM »

List of no longer saints:

1. Hieromartyr. Trofim Myachin, elder (1938) (January 1)
2. martyr. John Lyubimov (1942) (January 8 )
3. Martyr. Arseny (Dobronravova) Abbess (January 10)
4. Hieromartyr. James Zyablitsky, Priest (22 January)
5. Hieromartyr. Peter Zyablitsky, Priest (22 January)
6. Hieromartyr. John Dobrokhotov, Fr. (January 22)
7. Hieromartyr. John Korzhavin, Priest (22 January)
8. Hieromartyr. John Rozanov, Priest (22 January)
9. Hieromartyr. Nikolai Bukharin, Fr. (January 22)
10. Hieromartyr. Fr. Dmitry Smirnov (1940) (June 13)
11. Hieromartyr. Fr. Nikolai Vinogradov (1938) (June 14)
12. martyr. John Protopopov (1937) (July 16)
13. Hieromartyr. Priest Nikolai love of truth (1941) (July 31)
14. St.. Basil (Transfiguration), en. Kineshemsky, App. (1945) (July 31)
15. Hieromartyr. Priest Basil Zelensky (1937) (September 2)
16. Martyr. Nun Xenia (Cherlin-Brailovskaya) (1937) (September 2)
17. Hieromartyr. Deacon Peter Sorokin (1953) (September 3)
18. Hieromartyr. Priest Basil Intelligences (1937) (September 9)
19. martyr. Vladimir love of truth (1937) (September 21)
20. Hieromartyr. Fr. Leonid Prendkovich (1938) (September 30)
21. Hieromartyr. Iuvenaly (Maslowski), Arch. Ryazan (1937) (October 11)
22. Hieromartyr. Herman (Kokkel), en. Alatyrskij (1937) (October 20)
23. Hieromartyr. Priest Leonid Vinogradov (1941) (October 30)
24. prmch. ierod. Benjamin (Zykov) (1937) (November 19)
25. Hieromartyr. Macarius (Karmazin), en. Dnepropetrovsk (1937) (November 20)
26. Hieromartyr. Boris (Voskoboinikov), en. Ivanovo (1937) (November 23)
27. Hieromartyr. Fr. Nikolay Postnikov (1937), in the Cathedral of the Butovo Saints (November 26)
28. Hieromartyr. Priest Peter Raven (1937), in the Cathedral of the Butovo Saints (November 28)
29. MC. Mary Demetrius (December 2)
30. Martyr. Fevronia (Ishin), Nun (December 2)
31. St. Vassian (Pyatnitsky), Arch. Tambov, App. (1940) (December 14)
32. Rodion (Fedorov), Archimandrite., App.: † 1933
33. John Shvetsov, Fr., Hieromartyr.: † 1918
34. Alexander Smirnov, Priest, Hieromartyr.: † 1918 | | Rostov.
35. Peter Kosmodamianskii, Priest, Hieromartyr.: † 1938 | | Booth
36. Nicholas, Fr., Hieromartyr.: † 1937.

here is translation of a letter from an Archpriest Vladimir Malchenko

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://www.blagogon.ru/news/237/&usg=ALkJrhgNOjx9RWRmqEjm506yzqxmk8359Q



Fixed the automatic smiley bug ("8 )" = Cool when you remove the space) and nothing more. -PtA
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« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2013, 02:49:03 AM »

oops... sorry didnt see this thread Tongue
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« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2013, 02:55:55 AM »

List of no longer saints:

1. Hieromartyr. Trofim Myachin, elder (1938) (January 1)
2. martyr. John Lyubimov (1942) (January 8 )
3. Martyr. Arseny (Dobronravova) Abbess (January 10)
4. Hieromartyr. James Zyablitsky, Priest (22 January)
5. Hieromartyr. Peter Zyablitsky, Priest (22 January)
6. Hieromartyr. John Dobrokhotov, Fr. (January 22)
7. Hieromartyr. John Korzhavin, Priest (22 January)
8. Hieromartyr. John Rozanov, Priest (22 January)
9. Hieromartyr. Nikolai Bukharin, Fr. (January 22)
10. Hieromartyr. Fr. Dmitry Smirnov (1940) (June 13)
11. Hieromartyr. Fr. Nikolai Vinogradov (1938) (June 14)
12. martyr. John Protopopov (1937) (July 16)
13. Hieromartyr. Priest Nikolai love of truth (1941) (July 31)
14. St.. Basil (Transfiguration), en. Kineshemsky, App. (1945) (July 31)
15. Hieromartyr. Priest Basil Zelensky (1937) (September 2)
16. Martyr. Nun Xenia (Cherlin-Brailovskaya) (1937) (September 2)
17. Hieromartyr. Deacon Peter Sorokin (1953) (September 3)
18. Hieromartyr. Priest Basil Intelligences (1937) (September 9)
19. martyr. Vladimir love of truth (1937) (September 21)
20. Hieromartyr. Fr. Leonid Prendkovich (1938) (September 30)
21. Hieromartyr. Iuvenaly (Maslowski), Arch. Ryazan (1937) (October 11)
22. Hieromartyr. Herman (Kokkel), en. Alatyrskij (1937) (October 20)
23. Hieromartyr. Priest Leonid Vinogradov (1941) (October 30)
24. prmch. ierod. Benjamin (Zykov) (1937) (November 19)
25. Hieromartyr. Macarius (Karmazin), en. Dnepropetrovsk (1937) (November 20)
26. Hieromartyr. Boris (Voskoboinikov), en. Ivanovo (1937) (November 23)
27. Hieromartyr. Fr. Nikolay Postnikov (1937), in the Cathedral of the Butovo Saints (November 26)
28. Hieromartyr. Priest Peter Raven (1937), in the Cathedral of the Butovo Saints (November 28)
29. MC. Mary Demetrius (December 2)
30. Martyr. Fevronia (Ishin), Nun (December 2)
31. St. Vassian (Pyatnitsky), Arch. Tambov, App. (1940) (December 14)
32. Rodion (Fedorov), Archimandrite., App.: † 1933
33. John Shvetsov, Fr., Hieromartyr.: † 1918
34. Alexander Smirnov, Priest, Hieromartyr.: † 1918 | | Rostov.
35. Peter Kosmodamianskii, Priest, Hieromartyr.: † 1938 | | Booth
36. Nicholas, Fr., Hieromartyr.: † 1937.

here is translation of a letter from an Archpriest Vladimir Malchenko

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://www.blagogon.ru/news/237/&usg=ALkJrhgNOjx9RWRmqEjm506yzqxmk8359Q
You gave us a link to Fr. Malchenko's response to this "decanonization", but can you tell us where you got this list of "decanonized saints"?
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« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2013, 03:08:14 AM »

Peter you have a well established reputation around here for just not getting it.

Couldn't agree more.
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« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2013, 03:20:11 AM »

List of no longer saints:

1. Hieromartyr. Trofim Myachin, elder (1938) (January 1)
2. martyr. John Lyubimov (1942) (January 8 )
3. Martyr. Arseny (Dobronravova) Abbess (January 10)
4. Hieromartyr. James Zyablitsky, Priest (22 January)
5. Hieromartyr. Peter Zyablitsky, Priest (22 January)
6. Hieromartyr. John Dobrokhotov, Fr. (January 22)
7. Hieromartyr. John Korzhavin, Priest (22 January)
8. Hieromartyr. John Rozanov, Priest (22 January)
9. Hieromartyr. Nikolai Bukharin, Fr. (January 22)
10. Hieromartyr. Fr. Dmitry Smirnov (1940) (June 13)
11. Hieromartyr. Fr. Nikolai Vinogradov (1938) (June 14)
12. martyr. John Protopopov (1937) (July 16)
13. Hieromartyr. Priest Nikolai love of truth (1941) (July 31)
14. St.. Basil (Transfiguration), en. Kineshemsky, App. (1945) (July 31)
15. Hieromartyr. Priest Basil Zelensky (1937) (September 2)
16. Martyr. Nun Xenia (Cherlin-Brailovskaya) (1937) (September 2)
17. Hieromartyr. Deacon Peter Sorokin (1953) (September 3)
18. Hieromartyr. Priest Basil Intelligences (1937) (September 9)
19. martyr. Vladimir love of truth (1937) (September 21)
20. Hieromartyr. Fr. Leonid Prendkovich (1938) (September 30)
21. Hieromartyr. Iuvenaly (Maslowski), Arch. Ryazan (1937) (October 11)
22. Hieromartyr. Herman (Kokkel), en. Alatyrskij (1937) (October 20)
23. Hieromartyr. Priest Leonid Vinogradov (1941) (October 30)
24. prmch. ierod. Benjamin (Zykov) (1937) (November 19)
25. Hieromartyr. Macarius (Karmazin), en. Dnepropetrovsk (1937) (November 20)
26. Hieromartyr. Boris (Voskoboinikov), en. Ivanovo (1937) (November 23)
27. Hieromartyr. Fr. Nikolay Postnikov (1937), in the Cathedral of the Butovo Saints (November 26)
28. Hieromartyr. Priest Peter Raven (1937), in the Cathedral of the Butovo Saints (November 28)
29. MC. Mary Demetrius (December 2)
30. Martyr. Fevronia (Ishin), Nun (December 2)
31. St. Vassian (Pyatnitsky), Arch. Tambov, App. (1940) (December 14)
32. Rodion (Fedorov), Archimandrite., App.: † 1933
33. John Shvetsov, Fr., Hieromartyr.: † 1918
34. Alexander Smirnov, Priest, Hieromartyr.: † 1918 | | Rostov.
35. Peter Kosmodamianskii, Priest, Hieromartyr.: † 1938 | | Booth
36. Nicholas, Fr., Hieromartyr.: † 1937.

here is translation of a letter from an Archpriest Vladimir Malchenko

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://www.blagogon.ru/news/237/&usg=ALkJrhgNOjx9RWRmqEjm506yzqxmk8359Q
You gave us a link to Fr. Malchenko's response to this "decanonization", but can you tell us where you got this list of "decanonized saints"?

Hey, lotsa folks wanna know.
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« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2013, 03:24:14 AM »

Peter you have a well established reputation around here for just not getting it.

Couldn't agree more.
Thanks. I like you. Wink laugh
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griego catolico
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« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2013, 10:16:20 AM »

List of no longer saints:

1. Hieromartyr. Trofim Myachin, elder (1938) (January 1)
2. martyr. John Lyubimov (1942) (January 8 )
3. Martyr. Arseny (Dobronravova) Abbess (January 10)
4. Hieromartyr. James Zyablitsky, Priest (22 January)
5. Hieromartyr. Peter Zyablitsky, Priest (22 January)
6. Hieromartyr. John Dobrokhotov, Fr. (January 22)
7. Hieromartyr. John Korzhavin, Priest (22 January)
8. Hieromartyr. John Rozanov, Priest (22 January)
9. Hieromartyr. Nikolai Bukharin, Fr. (January 22)
10. Hieromartyr. Fr. Dmitry Smirnov (1940) (June 13)
11. Hieromartyr. Fr. Nikolai Vinogradov (1938) (June 14)
12. martyr. John Protopopov (1937) (July 16)
13. Hieromartyr. Priest Nikolai love of truth (1941) (July 31)
14. St.. Basil (Transfiguration), en. Kineshemsky, App. (1945) (July 31)
15. Hieromartyr. Priest Basil Zelensky (1937) (September 2)
16. Martyr. Nun Xenia (Cherlin-Brailovskaya) (1937) (September 2)
17. Hieromartyr. Deacon Peter Sorokin (1953) (September 3)
18. Hieromartyr. Priest Basil Intelligences (1937) (September 9)
19. martyr. Vladimir love of truth (1937) (September 21)
20. Hieromartyr. Fr. Leonid Prendkovich (1938) (September 30)
21. Hieromartyr. Iuvenaly (Maslowski), Arch. Ryazan (1937) (October 11)
22. Hieromartyr. Herman (Kokkel), en. Alatyrskij (1937) (October 20)
23. Hieromartyr. Priest Leonid Vinogradov (1941) (October 30)
24. prmch. ierod. Benjamin (Zykov) (1937) (November 19)
25. Hieromartyr. Macarius (Karmazin), en. Dnepropetrovsk (1937) (November 20)
26. Hieromartyr. Boris (Voskoboinikov), en. Ivanovo (1937) (November 23)
27. Hieromartyr. Fr. Nikolay Postnikov (1937), in the Cathedral of the Butovo Saints (November 26)
28. Hieromartyr. Priest Peter Raven (1937), in the Cathedral of the Butovo Saints (November 28)
29. MC. Mary Demetrius (December 2)
30. Martyr. Fevronia (Ishin), Nun (December 2)
31. St. Vassian (Pyatnitsky), Arch. Tambov, App. (1940) (December 14)
32. Rodion (Fedorov), Archimandrite., App.: † 1933
33. John Shvetsov, Fr., Hieromartyr.: † 1918
34. Alexander Smirnov, Priest, Hieromartyr.: † 1918 | | Rostov.
35. Peter Kosmodamianskii, Priest, Hieromartyr.: † 1938 | | Booth
36. Nicholas, Fr., Hieromartyr.: † 1937.

here is translation of a letter from an Archpriest Vladimir Malchenko

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://www.blagogon.ru/news/237/&usg=ALkJrhgNOjx9RWRmqEjm506yzqxmk8359Q
You gave us a link to Fr. Malchenko's response to this "decanonization", but can you tell us where you got this list of "decanonized saints"?

Hey, lotsa folks wanna know.


I can help answer that question. The list is found here: http://ustav.livejournal.com/1082825.html
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 10:30:09 AM by griego catolico » Logged
Shanghaiski
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« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2013, 12:38:16 PM »

It appears the list has little if anything to do with ROCOR, but is rather a recanting on some canonizations from 2000. Kind of sloppy. What's the rationale?
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« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2013, 07:57:03 PM »

Augustin,

I think you are making a good point
about whether people killed on one side of the Russian Civil War should be considered martyrs just because the other side leaned toward opposition to the church. For example, in the French Revolution there was a significant period where the Revolution opposed the church in the way the Russian Revolution did. But that doesn't mean just because the French Revolution killed someone they would become a martyred saint.

In the case of the French Revolution, Americans would typically understand that, because it was a revolution that successfully developed into democracy. The Russian Revolution did not develop into its democratic goal, unless you count for a brief period or for decades later.

In the Russian revolution the issues being fought over were political: overturning the monarchy and creating socialism. Religion was a secondary issue, and there were alot of clergy on both sides of the conflict. Further, religion was not determinative. If a person was on the wrong political side of the conflict, the other side would oppose or target them, regardless of their religion. Changing religion would unfortunately not make a difference with either side.

You made a very good point about the White side. They were particularly cruel instead of just shooting people and the fact they used their power to hurt lots of people is a big reason they lost, like you said.

Shanghaiski pointed out that that nonaristocrats were killed in the Civil War, but that would be because they were on the "wrong" side, rather than for money. He is right that one side destroyed churches and taught against religion in schools, but my understanding is that generally this was done later, in Stalin's time.

Finally, the Church's reasoning about its canonization about the Tsar's Family as "passion-bearers" makes some sense. Someone else posted that Passion-bearer simply means someone who met their end acting as a Christian. The people killed were religious and not acting badly when they died, and I expect thinking praiseworthy things. It's sad they were killed. I note that this could be said about many millions of people, who haven't been canonized.

Does that mean their canonization was political? That we shouldn't venerate them anymore than millions of other faithful Christians?
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« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2013, 09:19:11 PM »

A saint is usually a character or a figure that lived a life of holiness and passed on to the next world after burial.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 09:19:51 PM by WPM » Logged
Nigula Qian Zishi
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« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2013, 09:26:04 PM »

Ok, I have been in contact with a priest in Russia who says that there was not decanonization at all, that these saints just were not listed in the calendar. He will get further information, but it seems that it is a possible over-reaction is all.
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« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2013, 01:16:18 AM »

Ok, I have been in contact with a priest in Russia who says that there was not decanonization at all, that these saints just were not listed in the calendar. He will get further information, but it seems that it is a possible over-reaction is all.

Thanks, Nigula.

This is quite possibly the first overreaction we've ever had here.
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« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2013, 05:15:56 AM »

I didn't see much overreaction, though I wish we could have discussed the actual principle (can saints be de-glorified?) a bit more...  police
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