Author Topic: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology  (Read 475 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,321
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
I'm still foggy on the differences between our various Eucharistic theologies. Does anyone here have greater insight on this than I do?
This profile is defunct as of 11/8/2017. I created it before Orthodoxy, and have used it after Orthodoxy.

I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

I will likely lurk on this forum under a different name.

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,294
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2017, 11:30:20 AM »
Craft your own explanation using all the words in the word bank:

Quote
Gracelessness
filioque
azymes
scholasticism
legalism
uncreated light
Franks
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Luke

  • Formerly Gamliel
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,976
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2017, 11:53:07 AM »
I'm still foggy on the differences between our various Eucharistic theologies. Does anyone here have greater insight on this than I do?
It seems that at some point the Catholics keep on going with explaining what is going on while the Orthodox say, "We don't know how it works.  It is a mystery."
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 11:53:33 AM by Luke »

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,374
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2017, 02:24:29 PM »
I'm still foggy on the differences between our various Eucharistic theologies. Does anyone here have greater insight on this than I do?
It seems that at some point the Catholics keep on going with explaining what is going on while the Orthodox say, "We don't know how it works.  It is a mystery."

They always kept going, on everything religious, and on and on and on. And killing people along the way. It was a really bad habit.

On a serious note, yes, Catholicism wanted to be scientific about it, make definite pronouncements as to the species, the instant, and so on. Along the way, I believe they also came to neglect or almost forget certain things. But in the end, I don't think their basic teaching needs to be understood differently from ours.

I'm not knowledgable; am casually opining.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Rohzek

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,013
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2017, 06:35:25 PM »
Craft your own explanation using all the words in the word bank:

Quote
Gracelessness
filioque
azymes
scholasticism
legalism
uncreated light
Franks

If you're Romanides, you'd add "Feudalism" too.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Alpha60

  • The Confederate Flag Is Diabolical and Blasphemous
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,509
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2017, 04:22:04 PM »
Craft your own explanation using all the words in the word bank:

Quote
Gracelessness
filioque
azymes
scholasticism
legalism
uncreated light
Franks

ROFL
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,321
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2017, 04:25:16 PM »
Forced celibacy anyone?
This profile is defunct as of 11/8/2017. I created it before Orthodoxy, and have used it after Orthodoxy.

I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

I will likely lurk on this forum under a different name.

Offline Rohzek

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,013
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2017, 04:34:45 PM »
Forced celibacy anyone?

Not to get too off-topic, but I often wonder how bad the consequences of these policies are. I know it sounds remarkably anecdotal, but forced celibacy seems to encourage sexual perversion. Some might contend that I'm letting the scandals of the past 20 something years that have rocked the Catholic Church color my vision too much. But having read a good deal of many excerpts of 9th century commentaries on the Benedictine Rule, even monks back then were writing about the sexual perversion that was abound within the monasteries, especially when young boys were involved. For example, one commentator (either Smaragdus or Hildemar, I forget which one) wrote that should an older monk have sex with a younger monk (probably an oblate who is still in their teens or even prepubescent), the younger monk was always punished the most, while the older monk was merely forbidden from chanting the Psalms for like a year if it is a first offense.
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,319
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2017, 08:28:48 PM »
Forced celibacy anyone?

Not to get too off-topic, but I often wonder how bad the consequences of these policies are. I know it sounds remarkably anecdotal, but forced celibacy seems to encourage sexual perversion. Some might contend that I'm letting the scandals of the past 20 something years that have rocked the Catholic Church color my vision too much. But having read a good deal of many excerpts of 9th century commentaries on the Benedictine Rule, even monks back then were writing about the sexual perversion that was abound within the monasteries, especially when young boys were involved. For example, one commentator (either Smaragdus or Hildemar, I forget which one) wrote that should an older monk have sex with a younger monk (probably an oblate who is still in their teens or even prepubescent), the younger monk was always punished the most, while the older monk was merely forbidden from chanting the Psalms for like a year if it is a first offense.

Maybe, but if so it's a problem for Orthodox monasticism too.

Given the number of married child molesters out there, I personally don't think a married priesthood would have solved or even very much lessened the Catholic scandals and some might find the suggestion insulting.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 08:29:16 PM by Volnutt »
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,374
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2017, 11:04:09 PM »
Forced celibacy anyone?

Not to get too off-topic, but I often wonder how bad the consequences of these policies are. I know it sounds remarkably anecdotal, but forced celibacy seems to encourage sexual perversion. Some might contend that I'm letting the scandals of the past 20 something years that have rocked the Catholic Church color my vision too much. But having read a good deal of many excerpts of 9th century commentaries on the Benedictine Rule, even monks back then were writing about the sexual perversion that was abound within the monasteries, especially when young boys were involved. For example, one commentator (either Smaragdus or Hildemar, I forget which one) wrote that should an older monk have sex with a younger monk (probably an oblate who is still in their teens or even prepubescent), the younger monk was always punished the most, while the older monk was merely forbidden from chanting the Psalms for like a year if it is a first offense.

Maybe, but if so it's a problem for Orthodox monasticism too.

Given the number of married child molesters out there, I personally don't think a married priesthood would have solved or even very much lessened the Catholic scandals and some might find the suggestion insulting.

Monastic populations can swell and dwindle. There's not really a "forcing" there. Besides, celibacy is inherent in the monastic choice. By contrast, the priesthood is always needed and bound to be numerous, and its duties are naturally irrelevant to virginity. Finally there is the very, very large difference that one group must be in the world. So I think your comparison is unfair.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,374
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2017, 11:05:41 PM »
Not to get too off-topic, but I often wonder how bad the consequences of these policies are. I know it sounds remarkably anecdotal, but forced celibacy seems to encourage is a sexual perversion.

T;ftfy.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,319
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2017, 11:07:37 PM »
Forced celibacy anyone?

Not to get too off-topic, but I often wonder how bad the consequences of these policies are. I know it sounds remarkably anecdotal, but forced celibacy seems to encourage sexual perversion. Some might contend that I'm letting the scandals of the past 20 something years that have rocked the Catholic Church color my vision too much. But having read a good deal of many excerpts of 9th century commentaries on the Benedictine Rule, even monks back then were writing about the sexual perversion that was abound within the monasteries, especially when young boys were involved. For example, one commentator (either Smaragdus or Hildemar, I forget which one) wrote that should an older monk have sex with a younger monk (probably an oblate who is still in their teens or even prepubescent), the younger monk was always punished the most, while the older monk was merely forbidden from chanting the Psalms for like a year if it is a first offense.

Maybe, but if so it's a problem for Orthodox monasticism too.

Given the number of married child molesters out there, I personally don't think a married priesthood would have solved or even very much lessened the Catholic scandals and some might find the suggestion insulting.

Monastic populations can swell and dwindle. There's not really a "forcing" there. Besides, celibacy is inherent in the monastic choice. By contrast, the priesthood is always needed and bound to be numerous, and its duties are naturally irrelevant to virginity. Finally there is the very, very large difference that one group must be in the world. So I think your comparison is unfair.

Rozhek is the one who brought up monasticism and that's what I replying to.

But yes, monastics are not forced into celibacy and priests should not be, I agree.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,374
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2017, 11:13:23 PM »
Forced celibacy anyone?

Not to get too off-topic, but I often wonder how bad the consequences of these policies are. I know it sounds remarkably anecdotal, but forced celibacy seems to encourage sexual perversion. Some might contend that I'm letting the scandals of the past 20 something years that have rocked the Catholic Church color my vision too much. But having read a good deal of many excerpts of 9th century commentaries on the Benedictine Rule, even monks back then were writing about the sexual perversion that was abound within the monasteries, especially when young boys were involved. For example, one commentator (either Smaragdus or Hildemar, I forget which one) wrote that should an older monk have sex with a younger monk (probably an oblate who is still in their teens or even prepubescent), the younger monk was always punished the most, while the older monk was merely forbidden from chanting the Psalms for like a year if it is a first offense.

Maybe, but if so it's a problem for Orthodox monasticism too.

Given the number of married child molesters out there, I personally don't think a married priesthood would have solved or even very much lessened the Catholic scandals and some might find the suggestion insulting.

Monastic populations can swell and dwindle. There's not really a "forcing" there. Besides, celibacy is inherent in the monastic choice. By contrast, the priesthood is always needed and bound to be numerous, and its duties are naturally irrelevant to virginity. Finally there is the very, very large difference that one group must be in the world. So I think your comparison is unfair.

Rozhek is the one who brought up monasticism and that's what I replying to.

But yes, monastics are not forced into celibacy and priests should not be, I agree.

Thanks for pointing this out. I don't generally read his posts, hence the mistake.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,319
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2017, 11:23:07 PM »
You're welcome.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Rohzek

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,013
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2017, 01:40:31 AM »
Forced celibacy anyone?

Not to get too off-topic, but I often wonder how bad the consequences of these policies are. I know it sounds remarkably anecdotal, but forced celibacy seems to encourage sexual perversion. Some might contend that I'm letting the scandals of the past 20 something years that have rocked the Catholic Church color my vision too much. But having read a good deal of many excerpts of 9th century commentaries on the Benedictine Rule, even monks back then were writing about the sexual perversion that was abound within the monasteries, especially when young boys were involved. For example, one commentator (either Smaragdus or Hildemar, I forget which one) wrote that should an older monk have sex with a younger monk (probably an oblate who is still in their teens or even prepubescent), the younger monk was always punished the most, while the older monk was merely forbidden from chanting the Psalms for like a year if it is a first offense.

Maybe, but if so it's a problem for Orthodox monasticism too.

Given the number of married child molesters out there, I personally don't think a married priesthood would have solved or even very much lessened the Catholic scandals and some might find the suggestion insulting.

I should have added more context in my original post, so my apologies. By the 9th century, priests who were "sexually pure" (ie had no sex whatsoever, even in a past marriage) were the ideal priests in much of the Latin West. Therefore, people who were donated to the monasteries as children and raised as monks often became priests as well. In some monastic institutions of the period, we've been able to measure that at least two-thirds of them were in some form of major orders, mostly priests. So in many cases, priests were also priest-monks. In short, priesthood had become the pinnacle of the monastic career in the Latin West, whereas prior to, it was only a retreat for laymen young and old who had lived some years in the world as adults prior to. As to whether the suggestion is insulting or not, I care very little.

To your point though, it could have been/be a problem for Orthodox monasticism. However, I am not knowledgeable enough about Eastern monasticism to know if they had children in the monasteries as regularly as Latin monastics did. So I would argue a lot hinges on that.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 01:45:25 AM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Volnutt

  • Dull Sublunary Lover
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,319
  • Faith: Evangelical by default
  • Jurisdiction: Spiritually homeless
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2017, 03:30:36 AM »
Where does "When there's wine and boys around, the monks have no need of the devil to tempt them?" come from? I thought it was Coptic in origin, but I'm not sure.

There's also St. Basil's harsh words about child molesting monks, so I'd say it did happen in the East. I don't know about relative frequency, though.

Anyway, I see your point now about the frequency of monastic priests who were raised in a monastery and that is a problem, I agree. Thanks for clarifying.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 03:40:45 AM by Volnutt »
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,294
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2017, 10:18:52 AM »
Where does "When there's wine and boys around, the monks have no need of the devil to tempt them?" come from? I thought it was Coptic in origin, but I'm not sure.

Saint John the Dwarf says, "He who gorges himself and talks with a boy has already in his thought committed fornication with him." There are other bits like this in the sayings of the desert fathers, which seem to indicate that pederasty was a rampant problem in ancient monasticism.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Alpha60

  • The Confederate Flag Is Diabolical and Blasphemous
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,509
  • Faith: Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2017, 11:36:12 AM »
Where does "When there's wine and boys around, the monks have no need of the devil to tempt them?" come from? I thought it was Coptic in origin, but I'm not sure.

Saint John the Dwarf says, "He who gorges himself and talks with a boy has already in his thought committed fornication with him." There are other bits like this in the sayings of the desert fathers, which seem to indicate that pederasty was a rampant problem in ancient monasticism.

I recall reading quotes to the extent that boys should simply not be admitted, and that their presence had caused the failure of, at that early date, three monastic communities.

For several centuries the Benedictines took young boys on as oblates, and even after that ceased, continue to run schools even until the present.  So apparently that bit of Egyptian wisdom was unfortunately set aside.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 33,065
  • Two half-eggs
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2017, 11:50:02 AM »
Not to get too off-topic, but I often wonder how bad the consequences of these policies are. I know it sounds remarkably anecdotal, but forced celibacy seems to encourage is a sexual perversion.

T;ftfy.

Many single people agree with you!
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,374
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2017, 12:58:12 PM »
Where does "When there's wine and boys around, the monks have no need of the devil to tempt them?" come from? I thought it was Coptic in origin, but I'm not sure.

Saint John the Dwarf says, "He who gorges himself and talks with a boy has already in his thought committed fornication with him." There are other bits like this in the sayings of the desert fathers, which seem to indicate that pederasty was a rampant problem in ancient monasticism.

An apophthegm isn't sufficient evidence of "a rampant problem." It only shows this species of fornication was not unknown.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,294
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2017, 01:06:36 PM »
Where does "When there's wine and boys around, the monks have no need of the devil to tempt them?" come from? I thought it was Coptic in origin, but I'm not sure.

Saint John the Dwarf says, "He who gorges himself and talks with a boy has already in his thought committed fornication with him." There are other bits like this in the sayings of the desert fathers, which seem to indicate that pederasty was a rampant problem in ancient monasticism.

An apophthegm isn't sufficient evidence of "a rampant problem." It only shows this species of fornication was not unknown.

When several different fathers comment on it, and Abba Isaac says it has led to monasteries being deserted, that seems to indicate a recurring issue.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,374
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2017, 01:10:50 PM »
Where does "When there's wine and boys around, the monks have no need of the devil to tempt them?" come from? I thought it was Coptic in origin, but I'm not sure.

Saint John the Dwarf says, "He who gorges himself and talks with a boy has already in his thought committed fornication with him." There are other bits like this in the sayings of the desert fathers, which seem to indicate that pederasty was a rampant problem in ancient monasticism.

An apophthegm isn't sufficient evidence of "a rampant problem." It only shows this species of fornication was not unknown.

When several different fathers comment on it, and Abba Isaac says it has led to monasteries being deserted, that seems to indicate a recurring issue.

I wasn't commenting on withheld evidence. As for what you put forward now, it needs some framework. How many centuries and regions are represented by how many quotes? Proving rampant pederast will take quite a bit of work on your part.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Iconodule

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,294
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2017, 01:15:45 PM »
Where does "When there's wine and boys around, the monks have no need of the devil to tempt them?" come from? I thought it was Coptic in origin, but I'm not sure.

Saint John the Dwarf says, "He who gorges himself and talks with a boy has already in his thought committed fornication with him." There are other bits like this in the sayings of the desert fathers, which seem to indicate that pederasty was a rampant problem in ancient monasticism.

An apophthegm isn't sufficient evidence of "a rampant problem." It only shows this species of fornication was not unknown.

When several different fathers comment on it, and Abba Isaac says it has led to monasteries being deserted, that seems to indicate a recurring issue.

I wasn't commenting on withheld evidence. As for what you put forward now, it needs some framework. How many centuries and regions are represented by how many quotes? Proving rampant pederast will take quite a bit of work on your part.

I'm not here to prove anything. Believe what you like. Those who are familiar with this literature will know what I'm talking about.
Quote
“A goose to hatch the Crystal Egg after an Eagle had half-hatched it! Aye, aye, to be sure, that’s right,” said the Old Woman of Beare. “And now you must go find out what happened to it. Go now, and when you come back I will give you your name.”
- from The King of Ireland's Son, by Padraic Colum

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,374
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Important Differences Between Orthodox and Catholic Eucharistic Theology
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2017, 01:17:00 PM »
Where does "When there's wine and boys around, the monks have no need of the devil to tempt them?" come from? I thought it was Coptic in origin, but I'm not sure.

Saint John the Dwarf says, "He who gorges himself and talks with a boy has already in his thought committed fornication with him." There are other bits like this in the sayings of the desert fathers, which seem to indicate that pederasty was a rampant problem in ancient monasticism.

An apophthegm isn't sufficient evidence of "a rampant problem." It only shows this species of fornication was not unknown.

When several different fathers comment on it, and Abba Isaac says it has led to monasteries being deserted, that seems to indicate a recurring issue.

I wasn't commenting on withheld evidence. As for what you put forward now, it needs some framework. How many centuries and regions are represented by how many quotes? Proving rampant pederast will take quite a bit of work on your part.

I'm not here to prove anything. Believe what you like. Those who are familiar with this literature will know what I'm talking about.

Vague appeals to vague authorities can't support a claim of rampant pederasty.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy