Author Topic: Mediation heresy  (Read 1986 times)

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Offline Alive

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Mediation heresy
« on: February 01, 2013, 08:26:10 PM »
Mediation heresy


Quote
Firstly we based on great mission, which God give via Own Son to Church, and it is means firstly to bishops , and via bishops to priests and via priest to all people...... Patriarch say....

 Мы основываемся в первую очередь на той великой миссии, которую Бог через Сына Своего вручил Церкви, а значит, в первую очередь, епископату, а через него духовенству, а через них — всему народу в освящение и спасение рода человеческого.

http://pravoslavie.ru/news/59174.htm




Offline pmpn8rGPT

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2013, 08:28:22 PM »
Mediation heresy


Quote
Firstly we based on great mission, which God give via Own Son to Church, and it is means firstly to bishops , and via bishops to priests and via priest to all people...... Patriarch say....

 Мы основываемся в первую очередь на той великой миссии, которую Бог через Сына Своего вручил Церкви, а значит, в первую очередь, епископату, а через него духовенству, а через них — всему народу в освящение и спасение рода человеческого.

http://pravoslavie.ru/news/59174.htm




???
I'm confused as to what this is...
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Offline Alive

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2013, 09:06:26 PM »

 ???
I'm confused as to what this is...

It is official statement of current Patriarch of Russia , where he promote himself as mediator/middle man between God and people. Classical evidence of pops heresy.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2013, 09:19:15 PM »
"Since therefore I have, in the persons before mentioned, beheld the whole multitude of you in faith and love, I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters in the place of the assembly of the apostles, along with your deacons, who are most dear to me, and are entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed. Do all then, imitating the same divine conduct, pay respect to one another, and let no one look upon his neighbour after the flesh, but continually love each other in Jesus Christ. Let nothing exist among you that may divide you; but be united with your bishop, and those that preside over you, as a type and evidence of your immortality." (emphasis mine) -St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Magnesians, 6
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline Alive

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2013, 09:30:41 PM »

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2013, 09:32:35 PM »
.....
so....?

So grace (e.g. of the sacramental kind) doesn't ordinarily come down from the sky every few days, it comes through a specific authority structure established in the early Church and continuing to this day.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 09:32:52 PM by Asteriktos »
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Offline Alive

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2013, 09:38:28 PM »

 ???
I'm confused as to what this is...

It is official statement of current Patriarch of Russia , where he promote himself as mediator/middle man between God and people. Classical evidence of pops heresy.

The nerve of some people...
Any calls for excommunication yet? (I'm a Greek Old Calendarist so I can say that about Russian Hierarchy :angel:)

excommunication of the bishop - is matter of council...  so if you have authority you may call for one :).

Just maybe Patriarch did it by accident and sorry about.... but there are many accident and never any apology ....


"calendar" issue - is sad.... it is rip Church unity .... but it is not related to topic issue.

Offline Alive

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2013, 09:48:43 PM »
.....
so....?

So grace (e.g. of the sacramental kind) doesn't ordinarily come down from the sky every few days, it comes through a specific authority structure established in the early Church and continuing to this day.
rubbish.

you mixing liturgical order with salvation. what you do - is technologysation of Godliness... Spirit breathe any where He wish , not technological act.

It is one of key issues of western heretical teaching Church in Russia poison by. Bishops are not authority but caregiver.  not mediator/middle man but gardener. 




Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2013, 09:54:06 PM »
"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." - Matt. 12:36
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline Alive

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2013, 10:04:09 PM »
"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." - Matt. 12:36
Amin.

Sure we would, 100%.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2013, 11:30:46 PM »
Alive, have you been hanging out with Protestants?
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Offline Alive

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2013, 11:49:39 PM »
Alive, have you been hanging out with Protestants?

Only if protestants hang me .

Offline KBN1

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2013, 11:52:38 PM »

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2013, 01:10:58 AM »
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Knee V

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2013, 03:14:32 PM »
If the translation in the OP is correct, then the Patriarch is not referring to "salvation", but to the "mission". Christ had a "mission", and He passed that on to the Apostles, who then passed it on to the Bishops, and the Bishops today carry out that mission, and the Presbyters have a share in that mission and carry it out on behalf of their Bishops.

So what's the big deal? How is that "mediation heresy"?

Offline Alive

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2013, 08:26:20 PM »
If the translation in the OP is correct, then the Patriarch is not referring to "salvation", but to the "mission". Christ had a "mission", and He passed that on to the Apostles, who then passed it on to the Bishops, and the Bishops today carry out that mission, and the Presbyters have a share in that mission and carry it out on behalf of their Bishops.

So what's the big deal? How is that "mediation heresy"?

Firstly, orthodoxy is not about “grace transfer magic technology via priesthood” … it is sad if some one do not know it ….

So any one who teach about “priesthood” as mediation God and man – teach heresy.  


For second :
Quote
Firstly we based on great mission, which God give via Own Son to Church, and it is means firstly to bishops , and via bishops to clergy ...... and via them to whole nation (means Russians) for sanctification and salvation of human race

so as you can see it is clear statement about human race salvation via clergy …. and even worse it is sound like "special mission of Russian nation" at salvation of humanity.... look like promotion of "Russia" as "New Israel"  ....  this idea always was play game of many "kings" ...




this picture from 2013 "Russian" Church Council (not "Church in Russia" ).... guess who is in the middle. ... not many people know that Putin and Patriarch Alexei II even hardly speak to each other  for last years ... as far i know Patriarch Alexei II was godly bishop who die in bloody death.









« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 08:29:34 PM by Alive »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2013, 08:39:59 PM »
If the translation in the OP is correct, then the Patriarch is not referring to "salvation", but to the "mission". Christ had a "mission", and He passed that on to the Apostles, who then passed it on to the Bishops, and the Bishops today carry out that mission, and the Presbyters have a share in that mission and carry it out on behalf of their Bishops.

So what's the big deal? How is that "mediation heresy"?

Firstly, orthodoxy is not about “grace transfer magic technology via priesthood” … it is sad if some one do not know it ….

So any one who teach about “priesthood” as mediation God and man – teach heresy.  


For second :
Quote
Firstly we based on great mission, which God give via Own Son to Church, and it is means firstly to bishops , and via bishops to clergy ...... and via them to whole nation (means Russians) for sanctification and salvation of human race

so as you can see it is clear statement about human race salvation via clergy …. and even worse it is sound like "special mission of Russian nation" at salvation of humanity.... look like promotion of "Russia" as "New Israel"  ....  this idea always was play game of many "kings" ...
Alive, it appears to me as if there's much to this story that you don't know. Maybe you should spend a lot more time trying to understand the story and the teachings of the Church before you condemn a bishop of the Church for heresy.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 08:41:08 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Alive

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2013, 08:55:47 PM »

Firstly we based on great mission, which God give via Own Son to Church, and it is means firstly to bishops , and via bishops to clergy ...... and via them to whole nation (means Russians) for sanctification and salvation of human race

so as you can see it is clear statement about human race salvation via clergy …. and even worse it is sound like "special mission of Russian nation" at salvation of humanity.... look like promotion of "Russia" as "New Israel"  ....  this idea always was play game of many "kings" ...
Quote
Alive, it appears to me as if there's much to this story that you don't know. Maybe you should spend a lot more time trying to understand the story and the teachings of the Church before you condemn a bishop of the Church for heresy.

lot of "Russians" and "Russians clergy" love they special statues and take advantage of any any time. And if you just question it - you became "enemy for life" . IT IS TABOO EVEN SPEAK ABOUT....
It was poison by pops heresy, and it is sad, because it is road to totaletaristic autocracy, what currently we see take place in there.

and it did penitrait deeply in orthodoxy... not all bishops in Russia like that of course.... but it is getting ugly.

If you think "it is ok" , well, then soon enough we would have one more pop of 3rd rome, with all outcomes....

« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 08:59:38 PM by Alive »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2013, 12:51:43 AM »

Firstly we based on great mission, which God give via Own Son to Church, and it is means firstly to bishops , and via bishops to clergy ...... and via them to whole nation (means Russians) for sanctification and salvation of human race

so as you can see it is clear statement about human race salvation via clergy …. and even worse it is sound like "special mission of Russian nation" at salvation of humanity.... look like promotion of "Russia" as "New Israel"  ....  this idea always was play game of many "kings" ...
Quote
Alive, it appears to me as if there's much to this story that you don't know. Maybe you should spend a lot more time trying to understand the story and the teachings of the Church before you condemn a bishop of the Church for heresy.

lot of "Russians" and "Russians clergy" love they special statues and take advantage of any any time. And if you just question it - you became "enemy for life" . IT IS TABOO EVEN SPEAK ABOUT....
It was poison by pops heresy, and it is sad, because it is road to totaletaristic autocracy, what currently we see take place in there.

and it did penitrait deeply in orthodoxy... not all bishops in Russia like that of course.... but it is getting ugly.

If you think "it is ok" , well, then soon enough we would have one more pop of 3rd rome, with all outcomes....


As I said, it appears as if you know nothing about this situation except what you've read in one single news article. Considering that what you read is most likely a very small part of a much bigger context, it may not even be that accurate. Maybe then you should spend a lot more time trying to understand the situation before you condemn a bishop of the Church for heresy.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 12:54:23 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Alive

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2013, 02:35:14 AM »

Firstly we based on great mission, which God give via Own Son to Church, and it is means firstly to bishops , and via bishops to clergy ...... and via them to whole nation (means Russians) for sanctification and salvation of human race

so as you can see it is clear statement about human race salvation via clergy …. and even worse it is sound like "special mission of Russian nation" at salvation of humanity.... look like promotion of "Russia" as "New Israel"  ....  this idea always was play game of many "kings" ...
Quote
Alive, it appears to me as if there's much to this story that you don't know. Maybe you should spend a lot more time trying to understand the story and the teachings of the Church before you condemn a bishop of the Church for heresy.


lot of "Russians" and "Russians clergy" love they special statues and take advantage of any any time. And if you just question it - you became "enemy for life" . IT IS TABOO EVEN SPEAK ABOUT....
It was poison by pops heresy, and it is sad, because it is road to totaletaristic autocracy, what currently we see take place in there.

and it did penitrait deeply in orthodoxy... not all bishops in Russia like that of course.... but it is getting ugly.

If you think "it is ok" , well, then soon enough we would have one more pop of 3rd rome, with all outcomes....


As I said, it appears as if you know nothing about this situation except what you've read in one single news article. Considering that what you read is most likely a very small part of a much bigger context, it may not even be that accurate. Maybe then you should spend a lot more time trying to understand the situation before you condemn a bishop of the Church for heresy.



I condemn no one. Ijust present some evidence. Or you prefer every one keep mouth shut and speak no thing?

I saw many times as so called "russians" discriminates other speculation on Christianity.... it is not first nether last time....

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2013, 03:20:52 AM »

Firstly we based on great mission, which God give via Own Son to Church, and it is means firstly to bishops , and via bishops to clergy ...... and via them to whole nation (means Russians) for sanctification and salvation of human race

so as you can see it is clear statement about human race salvation via clergy …. and even worse it is sound like "special mission of Russian nation" at salvation of humanity.... look like promotion of "Russia" as "New Israel"  ....  this idea always was play game of many "kings" ...
Quote
Alive, it appears to me as if there's much to this story that you don't know. Maybe you should spend a lot more time trying to understand the story and the teachings of the Church before you condemn a bishop of the Church for heresy.


lot of "Russians" and "Russians clergy" love they special statues and take advantage of any any time. And if you just question it - you became "enemy for life" . IT IS TABOO EVEN SPEAK ABOUT....
It was poison by pops heresy, and it is sad, because it is road to totaletaristic autocracy, what currently we see take place in there.

and it did penitrait deeply in orthodoxy... not all bishops in Russia like that of course.... but it is getting ugly.

If you think "it is ok" , well, then soon enough we would have one more pop of 3rd rome, with all outcomes....


As I said, it appears as if you know nothing about this situation except what you've read in one single news article. Considering that what you read is most likely a very small part of a much bigger context, it may not even be that accurate. Maybe then you should spend a lot more time trying to understand the situation before you condemn a bishop of the Church for heresy.



I condemn no one. Ijust present some evidence. Or you prefer every one keep mouth shut and speak no thing?

I saw many times as so called "russians" discriminates other speculation on Christianity.... it is not first nether last time....
Your OP says it all. You accused Patriarch Kyrill of heresy.
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Offline Hiwot

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2013, 04:15:19 AM »
hehehe I started out reading the title of this thread as ' meditation heresy' and got totally confused with what is being said here, then I saw the topic of the thread and finally got the " mediation" correct, and got even more confused. Okay I'm outta here now :) carry on...
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Offline Alive

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2013, 08:29:07 AM »


Your OP says it all. You accused Patriarch Kyrill of heresy.


i did not accuse him, just but provide data ...

« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 08:31:52 AM by Alive »

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2013, 10:01:32 AM »
What is sad here is your anti-Russian attitude and the way you adress Patriarch Kirill. That offends me and probably others too.
But I will pray for you. No matter if you just provide datas or have other motives behind this attack. :o
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Offline Alive

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2013, 11:39:05 PM »
What is sad here is your anti-Russian attitude and the way you adress Patriarch Kirill. That offends me and probably others too.
But I will pray for you. No matter if you just provide datas or have other motives behind this attack. :o

1. Patriarh Kiril are not "russian" he is mordvin .
2. if he "citizen of Rosia" it is not same as "russian".
3. Russian and Orthodox - not synonyms.
4. Patriarh as any human could make errors and promote heresy.

So , what are you complain about?

Army of Rossia (ВС России) walk half Georgia, burn houses, and call "we Russian peace keeper"  .... or it was not "Russians"?

But you forget one things Rossia (Russia)  - ungodly formation. and it is what Propet David say about:
Quote
"И гроби их жилища их во век, селения их в род и род, нарекоша имена своя на землях."
them greves are they homes in ages, settlements them from generation to generation, they call they land by they own name (Russia for we are russians) , man was given such honour and did not get it, but composed with beast and be came like they. (Psalm 48).

"Ungodly formation" - by constitution. it is key value of Российской Федерации. so it is not orthodox.

I am not anti russian , but anti mix "governmental politics" with "orthodoxy" . impossible to mix. government about to make money and gain tax etc. so government promote distant value.

People who mixing religious and governmental - called FANATICS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O02yAAmU3Ww










What attack you are talking about?
Church is one
Every major city have bishop
Some city located on Territory this days called "Российской Федерациeй".
There are lot of great bishops i personal know well and highly respect.

How ever no one is prefect and "bishop of Moscow" do lot of misleading statements this days, what is not sound christian.
So what wrong with expressing disagreement about such statements?

What attack you are talking about?























Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2013, 12:58:34 AM »


Your OP says it all. You accused Patriarch Kyrill of heresy.


i did not accuse him, just but provide data ...
You accused His Holiness of heresy, and no amount of rationalization is going to weasel you out of your own words.
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Offline Alive

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2013, 06:59:58 AM »


Your OP says it all. You accused Patriarch Kyrill of heresy.


i did not accuse him, just but provide data ...
You accused His Holiness of heresy, and no amount of rationalization is going to weasel you out of your own words.

You wrong, I am not public prosecutor to do so, it is just present official information. what you tho do with it is up to you. You may take it to church court etc.

His words do not corresponding to orthodoxy .... or it is crime to speak? i guess in Russia now I may get sentence for it.... for "hurting religious filling"   :

That offends me and probably others too.
....


derailed society....




Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2013, 07:18:50 AM »

 ???
I'm confused as to what this is...

It is official statement of current Patriarch of Russia , where he promote himself as mediator/middle man between God and people. Classical evidence of pops heresy.


Not sure what pops heresy is, but you certainly claimed that he was engaging in it...
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Offline Alive

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2013, 07:54:21 AM »

 ???
I'm confused as to what this is...

It is official statement of current Patriarch of Russia , where he promote himself as mediator/middle man between God and people. Classical evidence of pops heresy.


Not sure what pops heresy is, but you certainly claimed that he was engaging in it...

Pop present himself as middle man between  God and man.
Also Patriarh Kiril presented "Russia" as nation which deliver salvation to humanity.

Do you present it as orthodox value? if yes, you may need to reconsider your orthodoxy.








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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2013, 07:56:04 AM »
@Alive: I really recommend you to tone down your posts.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2013, 12:50:21 PM »
If His Holiness the Russian patriarch is guity of some heresy, it is up to the other bishops to address this, not you, Alive.
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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2013, 02:04:31 PM »
If His Holiness the Russian patriarch is guity of some heresy, it is up to the other bishops to address this, not you, Alive.
Actually, I believe, if Alive is Orthodox, he is entitled by the canons to accuse a bishop of heresy... to another bishop, NOT to an Internet discussion forum.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 02:04:48 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Alive

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2013, 09:27:29 PM »
If His Holiness the Russian patriarch is guity of some heresy, it is up to the other bishops to address this, not you, Alive.
Actually, I believe, if Alive is Orthodox, he is entitled by the canons to accuse a bishop of heresy... to another bishop, NOT to an Internet discussion forum.
Correct, but as i say it is not an accusation , i just like make sure me on right track .... i hear what patriarh say, disagree, so one of two :
- patriarch wrong
- me wrong

so post it in forum to see what other say about.

It is natural to search for true... is not?


He speak as "teacher" and it is public message to orthodox people.
Lot of people take his words as key orthodox value and promote it.

and then so called "russian" (many of whom never live there, no even ethnically Slavic ) running around the world and save humanity from evin because it is mission of Russian nation...for patriarh say so....  as he resives this mission from God (as he say) and pass it to people... and they think it is godly mission because patriarh blessed to do so. and patriarch got this blessing directly from the God to pass it to people ...






Than , rus. president make statement about that georgian, and armenian, and uzbeks etc - are "russian" too... so it get even more messy ... and then next day he promise to defends "Christians" (not orthodox , mostly heretics) any where in the world they get abused with "force" ...

I have not problems with russian army do play political games around the world, but i not think it is good to do it for name of Christ, because "Russian have special mission" to save the world.... is not be came popular lately? just about every nation have special mission to save the world in they own way....




This day it is populer to call kids "you are special" - it is part of brain washing programmer... also it is part of pride game. If parent say to kid you are special, so it means parent spacial to... so it is all self esteem games to keep own status up at any cost to support.




Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Mediation heresy
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2013, 09:49:53 PM »
If His Holiness the Russian patriarch is guity of some heresy, it is up to the other bishops to address this, not you, Alive.
Actually, I believe, if Alive is Orthodox, he is entitled by the canons to accuse a bishop of heresy... to another bishop, NOT to an Internet discussion forum.
Correct, but as i say it is not an accusation , i just like make sure me on right track .... i hear what patriarh say, disagree, so one of two :
- patriarch wrong
- me wrong
If this was Jeopardy, you would have lost, then, for not phrasing your OP in the form of a question.

so post it in forum to see what other say about.

It is natural to search for true... is not?
Then learn how to use a question mark.
Not all who wander are lost.