OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 24, 2014, 11:52:55 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: DL vs. Mass  (Read 535 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Anastasia1
My warrior name is Beyoncé Pad Thai
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Occasionally traveling, Armenian.
Posts: 1,160



« on: February 01, 2013, 07:39:41 PM »

What real differences are there between Mass and Divine Liturgy?

I know of:
-Which church (Western Catholic vs. Eastern churches)
-How the transformation of the elements is defined (more specifically in the Catholic theology, though that would also go for Eastern Catholic DL)
-Culture (Since I read that Mass is used for Western Rite as well as Catholic, and DL is Eastern and has various names sometimes based on the language used where the church originated)
-Which liturgy is used

Are there others?
Logged

Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor 2:6)
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2013, 07:55:52 PM »

Differences:

Mass can be celebrated many times a day.  The Divine Liturgy is ordinarily celebrated by one priest on one altar once per day.  Of course there are extraordinary cases, but Mass itself ordinarily is celebrated multiple times a day on the same altar even by the same priest.

The participation of the people is important in the Divine Liturgy and is explicit in its theology.  For example, the parts of the people during the Anaphora is important in making the bread and wine into the Eucharist.  In Catholic theology, the priest saying the words of institution is all that is needed.  The Great Amen that is part of the Mass has really no bearing to the "validity" of the Eucharist.  The Eucharist is the work of the priest alone and not of the corporal body of Christ that is gathered.

The Divine Liturgy is not a free-form prayer service were people should be making their personal petitions.  There is, ideally and as intended, no "quiet time" for an individual making their own personal petitions and prayers to God.  That can happen anytime, anywhere, outside of the Liturgy.  The Liturgy is where everyone comes together and become that one body, one mind.   That is why it is important that people are listening to the same thing, saying the same thing, doing the same thing.  In Mass, people always look for that "Sacred Silence" after they receive Communion and before the priest starts the post-Communion prayers.

The Divine Liturgy is only under the direction and approval of the Bishop.  A priest with no antimension (signifying the approval of the bishop) cannot celebrate the Liturgy and have the Eucharist.  Latin Rite theology does not say this.  A priest can say Mass anytime he wants, anywhere he wants.  A bishop's permission is only for the licety of the Mass, not necessarily its validity.  So a priest can still say Mass privately without the permission of the bishop of the diocese he is in, even if he is visiting.  But if he celebrates a public Mass, then he is subject to sanctions by the local bishop.  But the Mass is still considered a Mass.  In fact, a priest can schism from the Catholic Church and still say the Mass validly, such as the SSPX and even the sedevacantists.
Logged
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2013, 02:46:48 PM »

Mass is what the Divine Liturgy is called in the Latin Church. In all the other Eastern Churches of the Catholic Church and in the MOCNICWR (Mostly Orthodox Churches not in Communion with Rome), the Liturgy is called the Divine Liturgy.
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2013, 02:48:41 PM »

Mass is what the Divine Liturgy is called in the Latin Church. In all the other Eastern Churches of the Catholic Church and in the MOCNICWR (Mostly Orthodox Churches not in Communion with Rome), the Liturgy is called the Divine Liturgy.

Mass is not the Divine Liturgy.  There are just too many different things between the two to say that its the same thing called by another name.  Its not.  You never have a private Divine Liturgy happening on a side altar while a public Divine Liturgy is going on in the main altar at the same time, as is the case with the Latin Mass.
Logged
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2013, 02:49:46 PM »

Mass is what the Divine Liturgy is called in the Latin Church. In all the other Eastern Churches of the Catholic Church and in the MOCNICWR (Mostly Orthodox Churches not in Communion with Rome), the Liturgy is called the Divine Liturgy.

Mass is not the Divine Liturgy.  There are just too many different things between the two to say that its the same thing called by another name.  Its not.  You never have a private Divine Liturgy happening on a side altar while a public Divine Liturgy is going on in the main altar at the same time, as is the case with the Latin Mass.
Now you're just nitpicking.
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2013, 02:56:00 PM »

Mass is what the Divine Liturgy is called in the Latin Church. In all the other Eastern Churches of the Catholic Church and in the MOCNICWR (Mostly Orthodox Churches not in Communion with Rome), the Liturgy is called the Divine Liturgy.

Mass is not the Divine Liturgy.  There are just too many different things between the two to say that its the same thing called by another name.  Its not.  You never have a private Divine Liturgy happening on a side altar while a public Divine Liturgy is going on in the main altar at the same time, as is the case with the Latin Mass.
Now you're just nitpicking.

No I am not.  The entire theology behind is completely different.  They are essentially two different things.
Logged
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine
Posts: 10,015


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2013, 02:56:23 PM »

Mass is what the Divine Liturgy is called in the Latin Church. In all the other Eastern Churches of the Catholic Church and in the MOCNICWR (Mostly Orthodox Churches not in Communion with Rome), the Liturgy is called the Divine Liturgy.

Mass is not the Divine Liturgy.  There are just too many different things between the two to say that its the same thing called by another name.  Its not.  You never have a private Divine Liturgy happening on a side altar while a public Divine Liturgy is going on in the main altar at the same time, as is the case with the Latin Mass.
Now you're just nitpicking.

Seems like that, doesn't it?  Both the "Mass" and the "Divine Liturgy" are liturgies at which bread and wine are consecrated and become the Body and Blood of Christ.  They are just different liturgies practiced by different traditions with different praxis, and as Choy points out, somewhat different theology.  Having experienced quite a few of both, I'd dare to say that one is not inherently "better" than the other.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 02:57:25 PM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,559



WWW
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2013, 03:21:07 PM »


I've experienced both....and most definitely would say that the Divine Liturgy is better.  Smiley
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine
Posts: 10,015


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2013, 03:27:11 PM »


I've experienced both....and most definitely would say that the Divine Liturgy is better.  Smiley

I prefer the DL of St. John more than the Mass, generally speaking.  I still do not believe that one is inherently better than the other.  But you are, of course, entitled to your opinion  Wink.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,495



« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2013, 04:12:41 PM »


I've experienced both....and most definitely would say that the Divine Liturgy is better.  Smiley

Have you attended any Orthodox Mass?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 04:13:54 PM by Alpo » Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,517



« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2013, 04:18:09 PM »

Differences:

Mass can be celebrated many times a day.  The Divine Liturgy is ordinarily celebrated by one priest on one altar once per day.  Of course there are extraordinary cases, but Mass itself ordinarily is celebrated multiple times a day on the same altar even by the same priest.

The participation of the people is important in the Divine Liturgy and is explicit in its theology.  For example, the parts of the people during the Anaphora is important in making the bread and wine into the Eucharist.  In Catholic theology, the priest saying the words of institution is all that is needed.  The Great Amen that is part of the Mass has really no bearing to the "validity" of the Eucharist.  The Eucharist is the work of the priest alone and not of the corporal body of Christ that is gathered.

The Divine Liturgy is not a free-form prayer service were people should be making their personal petitions.  There is, ideally and as intended, no "quiet time" for an individual making their own personal petitions and prayers to God.  That can happen anytime, anywhere, outside of the Liturgy.  The Liturgy is where everyone comes together and become that one body, one mind.   That is why it is important that people are listening to the same thing, saying the same thing, doing the same thing.  In Mass, people always look for that "Sacred Silence" after they receive Communion and before the priest starts the post-Communion prayers.

The Divine Liturgy is only under the direction and approval of the Bishop.  A priest with no antimension (signifying the approval of the bishop) cannot celebrate the Liturgy and have the Eucharist.  Latin Rite theology does not say this.  A priest can say Mass anytime he wants, anywhere he wants.  A bishop's permission is only for the licety of the Mass, not necessarily its validity.  So a priest can still say Mass privately without the permission of the bishop of the diocese he is in, even if he is visiting.  But if he celebrates a public Mass, then he is subject to sanctions by the local bishop.  But the Mass is still considered a Mass.  In fact, a priest can schism from the Catholic Church and still say the Mass validly, such as the SSPX and even the sedevacantists.

This is one of the most concise and clear listing of the differences that I have seen. Thank you very much.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine
Posts: 10,015


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2013, 04:29:16 PM »


I've experienced both....and most definitely would say that the Divine Liturgy is better.  Smiley

Have you attended any Orthodox Mass?


I've attended Orthodox Divine Liturgy (of St. John Chrysostom and of St. Basil), Catholic Divine Liturgy (of St. John Chrysostom and of St. Basil), and Catholic Novus Ordo Mass. 

What some call "Orthodox Mass" is *usually* either the DL of St. John or St. Basil, or the Liturgy of St. Germanus (I think!) celebrated in Western Rite Orthodoxy, and that is (I think!) a revised version of the Tridentine Mass.  Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken.
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,495



« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2013, 04:52:12 PM »


I've experienced both....and most definitely would say that the Divine Liturgy is better.  Smiley

Have you attended any Orthodox Mass?


I've attended Orthodox Divine Liturgy (of St. John Chrysostom and of St. Basil), Catholic Divine Liturgy (of St. John Chrysostom and of St. Basil), and Catholic Novus Ordo Mass. 

What some call "Orthodox Mass" is *usually* either the DL of St. John or St. Basil, or the Liturgy of St. Germanus (I think!) celebrated in Western Rite Orthodoxy, and that is (I think!) a revised version of the Tridentine Mass.  Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken.

By "Orthodox Mass" I meant any use of WRO.  I haven't attended any of them but from an internet perspective they all seem more traditional than usual Catholic Novus Ordo and more like Tridentine Mass/Byzantine DLs so I wonder what Liza thinks of them.

As for my own perspective, I'd prefer properly celebrated Mass to DL but WRO is not available in my country so I have to do with DLs. Not that I'd complain about that anymore since I've grown accustomed to Byzantine over the years.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.067 seconds with 41 queries.