Author Topic: Headcoverings Revisited  (Read 29071 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

  • "SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,994
  • "Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"
    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=profile&id=1456515775
Re: Headcoverings Revisited
« Reply #360 on: March 24, 2010, 02:37:42 AM »
As I think was mentioned at some point in this thread a long time ago, most women just do what the majority of the other women in the parish are doing.  It's more about not standing out than anything.  At my parish, almost all of the women cover, so even visitors are uncomfortable if they are not covered, if nothing else because they feel like they stick out like a sore thumb. I suppose the same applies to women in parishes where no women cover.

Gebre, I would suspect this might have something to do with your wife covering in one setting and not in another.  Do any of the women cover at the Greek parish in your town?

I notice one or two older women who always cover their heads. And I always make sure my daughter covers her head. She loves to wear her head covering, and she feels that it's a special thing that women get to do.

But yeah, I think you're correct about just fitting in. Some women may feel that it would be ostentatiously pious to wear a head covering at a parsih where no one else does. I can totally understand that. Again, modesty is the important thing- for men and women alike.


Selam
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 02:38:16 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
""Love is a dangerous thing. It will crush you if you trust it. But without it you can never be whole. Love crucifies, but love saves. We will either be saved together with love, or damned alone without it."    Selam, +GMK+

Offline katherineofdixie

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,718
Re: Headcoverings Revisited
« Reply #361 on: March 24, 2010, 04:23:01 PM »
As I think was mentioned at some point in this thread a long time ago, most women just do what the majority of the other women in the parish are doing.  It's more about not standing out than anything.  At my parish, almost all of the women cover, so even visitors are uncomfortable if they are not covered, if nothing else because they feel like they stick out like a sore thumb. I suppose the same applies to women in parishes where no women cover.

Gebre, I would suspect this might have something to do with your wife covering in one setting and not in another.  Do any of the women cover at the Greek parish in your town?

I notice one or two older women who always cover their heads. And I always make sure my daughter covers her head. She loves to wear her head covering, and she feels that it's a special thing that women get to do.

But yeah, I think you're correct about just fitting in. Some women may feel that it would be ostentatiously pious to wear a head covering at a parsih where no one else does. I can totally understand that. Again, modesty is the important thing- for men and women alike.


Selam

When we became members of our OCA parish, the majority of women wore headcoverings. Now it's about half and half. Nobody beats anybody up about it. I decided to follow the custom of the parish at the time, and now it feels "normal." We had Pan-Orthodox Vespers at a ROCOR parish and all the women wore headcoverings. However, when I attend services at other parishes, such as the Greek or Antiochian, I don't wear a headcovering, because generally the ladies there do not, and I want to follow their custom so I don't stand out.
(although I always have a scarf in my bag, just in case!)
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom

Offline GabrieltheCelt

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,014
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox OCA
Re: Headcoverings Revisited
« Reply #362 on: March 24, 2010, 06:39:51 PM »

No.

I would question someone who claims to be Orthodox and cites from a Bible where the Lord's Prayer (Matthew 6:9-13, The Message) looks like:




 I second that.  But I'd go a little further and say that The Message ain't the Bible.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 06:41:02 PM by GabrieltheCelt »
"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying

Offline xuxana

  • babygirl
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 92
  • i♡ΙΧΘΥΣ!
Re: Headcoverings Revisited
« Reply #363 on: March 24, 2010, 08:26:45 PM »
i dont do the lord's prayer from the message. i do the standard that we all do i READ the message bible and i cite it because i can understand what they are saying.

reading the message bible or not has nothing to do with being orthodox.  i am well aware that it is a paraphrase. but i still choose to use it as a devotional because KJV is very dry & boring to me.
Ephesians 6:10-18

Offline Orual

  • Orthodoxy = 7, not 3
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 990
  • I'm just here for the food.
Re: Headcoverings Revisited
« Reply #364 on: March 24, 2010, 08:59:58 PM »
I cover my head no matter what parish I'm in, because I think it should be about God, not the other people in the parish.  It's lamentable if it provides a stumbling block for them, but that's not something I can control, and won't be helped if I don't cover my head.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 09:20:59 PM by Orual »
He spoke it as kindly and heartily as could be; as if a man dashed a gallon of cold water in your broth and never doubted you'd like it all the better. 

- C.S. Lewis, Till We Have Faces
f.k.a. Matron.a

Offline Salpy

  • Section Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,747
  • Holy Martyrs of the Armenian Genocide pray for us!
Re: Headcoverings Revisited
« Reply #365 on: March 24, 2010, 09:07:32 PM »
^ Yeah, what she said.

Offline Salpy

  • Section Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,747
  • Holy Martyrs of the Armenian Genocide pray for us!
Re: Headcoverings Revisited
« Reply #366 on: March 24, 2010, 09:09:29 PM »
That being said, I do understand those who don't cover when they are in a parish where no one wears a head covering.  It can draw attention to oneself, and it can be perceived as being "pretentiously pious." 

Offline Lauren_Elisse

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 261
Re: Headcoverings Revisited
« Reply #367 on: March 25, 2010, 12:53:02 AM »
This is strange for me to say, living in America, we don't have public codes for dress that are as strict as other countries.
I feel that even though it's great to have the freedom, it would be more preferable to me to be in a country where women and men wear head coverings, and they show no body form, or skin.
Just because I don't want men and their thoughts to be diluted by my being or mine by theirs.
Head Coverings = Good
Psalms 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

Offline GabrieltheCelt

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,014
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox OCA
Re: Headcoverings Revisited
« Reply #368 on: March 25, 2010, 01:07:29 AM »
That being said, I do understand those who don't cover when they are in a parish where no one wears a head covering.  It can draw attention to oneself, and it can be perceived as being "pretentiously pious." 
Sure.  But then we're falling into the trap of pride, I think.  That is, we want others to like us and not feel like we're being judged.  I recall a verse in the Cherubic Hymn that goes, "Let us now lay aside all earthly cares...".  Really, as much as is possible, we ought to have this at the forefront of our minds wherever we Christians walk.
"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

  • "SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,994
  • "Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"
    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=profile&id=1456515775
Re: Headcoverings Revisited
« Reply #369 on: March 25, 2010, 02:06:49 AM »
This is strange for me to say, living in America, we don't have public codes for dress that are as strict as other countries.
I feel that even though it's great to have the freedom, it would be more preferable to me to be in a country where women and men wear head coverings, and they show no body form, or skin.
Just because I don't want men and their thoughts to be diluted by my being or mine by theirs.
Head Coverings = Good

Your words are a beautiful expression of the spirit of humility and concern for others that we all should embrace. God bless you.


Selam
""Love is a dangerous thing. It will crush you if you trust it. But without it you can never be whole. Love crucifies, but love saves. We will either be saved together with love, or damned alone without it."    Selam, +GMK+

Offline Punch

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,801
Re: Headcoverings Revisited
« Reply #370 on: March 25, 2010, 07:46:37 AM »
This is strange for me to say, living in America, we don't have public codes for dress that are as strict as other countries.
I feel that even though it's great to have the freedom, it would be more preferable to me to be in a country where women and men wear head coverings, and they show no body form, or skin.
Just because I don't want men and their thoughts to be diluted by my being or mine by theirs.
Head Coverings = Good

You are correct.  Most of us that have worked in a Corporate office know the truth of this.  What is a tie, other than a symbol of servitude (I have called it other things, but not on a religious forum).  I have worked in a power plant for most of my adult life.  I can imagine what would be said if I came to work in far more comfortable Middle Eastern or Indian dress!  It always amazes me that we can conform to the World, but we cannot bring ourselves to conform to some of God's most simple commands.  Love my neighbor?  VERY hard.  Put a scarf on in Church?  I only wish all commands were so easy.  Your humility is most beautiful. 
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline zoarthegleaner

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 398
Re: Headcoverings Revisited
« Reply #371 on: March 25, 2010, 01:01:36 PM »
The requirement to wear a head covering in Church has come to be viewed as oppressive.

To forbid the wearing make-up (a kind of Face Covering) is viewed as oppressive.

I know of one Orthodox Priest who forbade some parishioners from coming to Services dressed as Vampires; they too thought this attitude was oppressive.

John
Courteous is my name,
and I have always aimed to live up to it.
Grace is also my name,
but when things go wrong
its Courteous whom I blame;
but its Grace who sees me through it.

Offline Wilma

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 26
Re: Headcoverings Revisited
« Reply #372 on: December 11, 2012, 01:59:14 PM »
I cover my head full time. I do it because I want to follow the Holy Theotokos example, because of Corinthians, the angels, and because we are called to pray without ceasing.

I don't wear make-up to church because I don't want to kiss an icon or the priest's hand and leave a mark  :-* But for work I wear a bit of lip gloss so I don't look so pale. I also prefer to wear skirts to church, but to work I also wear trousers and modest shirts.

It is a challenge sometimes because as any woman, I sometimes feel like I want to show off my long hair, sometimes the scarf bothers me, or people at my workplace bully me. They have called me many names and have reffered to me as raghead....but you know what? It keeps me grounded! If Jesus went through so much humiliation from the people He gave His life for, I can put up with being humiliated by people I don't care much about.

I don't think the scarf makes me hollier or even pius, I just think it is like a living prayer. Talking the talk is easy, but wearig a head covering makes my walk harder than it coult be, therefore it humbles my horrible pride.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 02:01:13 PM by Wilma »
Wilma (Nazarius)

"Humbleness is protection, patience is confirmation, love is defence. Where there is love, there is God, there is all the good…" St. Nazary of Valaam

Offline Cyrillic

  • The Laughing Cavalier
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,180
  • Level 13 Chalcedonian Paladin
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Headcoverings Revisited
« Reply #373 on: December 11, 2012, 02:06:17 PM »


It's alive!
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 02:07:10 PM by Cyrillic »
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
aurum omnes victa iam pietate colunt.
-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

Ἀπ' ὃσα ἒκαμα κι ἀπ’ ὃσα εἶπα
νὰ μὴ ζητήσουνε νὰ βροῦν ποιός ἢμουν
-C.P Cavafy

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

  • "SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,994
  • "Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"
    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=profile&id=1456515775
Re: Headcoverings Revisited
« Reply #374 on: December 12, 2012, 02:07:47 AM »
I cover my head full time. I do it because I want to follow the Holy Theotokos example, because of Corinthians, the angels, and because we are called to pray without ceasing.

I don't wear make-up to church because I don't want to kiss an icon or the priest's hand and leave a mark  :-* But for work I wear a bit of lip gloss so I don't look so pale. I also prefer to wear skirts to church, but to work I also wear trousers and modest shirts.

It is a challenge sometimes because as any woman, I sometimes feel like I want to show off my long hair, sometimes the scarf bothers me, or people at my workplace bully me. They have called me many names and have reffered to me as raghead....but you know what? It keeps me grounded! If Jesus went through so much humiliation from the people He gave His life for, I can put up with being humiliated by people I don't care much about.

I don't think the scarf makes me hollier or even pius, I just think it is like a living prayer. Talking the talk is easy, but wearig a head covering makes my walk harder than it coult be, therefore it humbles my horrible pride.




Thank you so much for your wonderful example. Don't let anyone discourage you from your Orthodox convictions.


Selam
""Love is a dangerous thing. It will crush you if you trust it. But without it you can never be whole. Love crucifies, but love saves. We will either be saved together with love, or damned alone without it."    Selam, +GMK+

Offline Karaleighmum

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 41
  • I am a partaker of The Divine Nature.
Re: Headcoverings Revisited
« Reply #375 on: February 05, 2013, 11:58:51 PM »
Is the modern change in praxis to be justified? I don't know. Fortunately, this is not too much of an issue at my parish, because almost everyone covers their heads. It's only since I've been active on this site that I am realizing that many Orthodox churches have not retained this custom. Personally, I think it's sad that they've lost it-I like it. One of our posters, Amdetsion (sp?), an Ethiopian Orthodox deacon, had a great post once, in which he referred to it as a woman's crown. I really liked that. BTW, I hope Amdetsion is okay...he hasn't posted on here for quite some time... :'(

My goodness! I love that imagery of the woman's crown!! Do you wear your covering all the time, or just during formal prayer? I have been torn as to whether or not I shoudl wear something all the time because I pray frequently  or whether the scripture refferred moreso to formal prayer, i.e. in Church, or whenever I sit down specifically to pray.

Offline Cantor Krishnich

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 545
  • Mar Ahmed the Daftadar
Re: Headcoverings Revisited
« Reply #376 on: February 06, 2013, 12:29:55 AM »
I cover my head full time. I do it because I want to follow the Holy Theotokos example, because of Corinthians, the angels, and because we are called to pray without ceasing.

I don't wear make-up to church because I don't want to kiss an icon or the priest's hand and leave a mark  :-* But for work I wear a bit of lip gloss so I don't look so pale. I also prefer to wear skirts to church, but to work I also wear trousers and modest shirts.

It is a challenge sometimes because as any woman, I sometimes feel like I want to show off my long hair, sometimes the scarf bothers me, or people at my workplace bully me. They have called me many names and have reffered to me as raghead....but you know what? It keeps me grounded! If Jesus went through so much humiliation from the people He gave His life for, I can put up with being humiliated by people I don't care much about.

I don't think the scarf makes me hollier or even pius, I just think it is like a living prayer. Talking the talk is easy, but wearig a head covering makes my walk harder than it coult be, therefore it humbles my horrible pride.




Thank you so much for your wonderful example. Don't let anyone discourage you from your Orthodox convictions.


Selam

+1
Most Holy Theotokos, Save Us!
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy Upon Me a Sinner!