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Author Topic: How Does a Jurisdiction Extend its Jurisdiction?  (Read 1781 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« on: June 20, 2010, 11:20:41 AM »

We know the answer Constantinople has been wanting us to give for a century now.

I had thought of putting this on my Autocephaly thread
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19811.0.html

but thought this might warrent a thread of its own.

Just was reminded of this, which I haven't seen brought into the discussion before.  From the Pedalion, Canon II of Constantinople I:

Quote
2. Bishops must not leave their own diocese and go over to churches beyond its boundaries; but, on the contrary, in accordance with the Canons, let the Bishop of Alexandria administer the affairs of Egypt only, let the Bishops of the East govern the Eastern Church only, the priorities granted to the church of the Antiochians in the Nicene Canons being kept inviolate, and let the Bishops of the Asian diocese (or administrative domain) administer only the affairs of the Asian church, and let those of the Pontic diocese look after the affairs of the diocese of Pontus only, and let those of the Thracian diocese manage the affairs of the Thracian diocese only. Let Bishops not go beyond their own province to carry out an ordination or any other ecclesiastical services unless (officially) summoned thither. When the Canon prescribed in regard to dioceses (or administrative provinces) is duly kept, it is evident that the synod of each province will confine itself to the affairs of that particular province, in accordance with the regulations decreed in Nicaea. But the churches of God that are situated in territories belonging to barbarian nations must be administered in accordance with the customary practice of the Fathers.

Quote
Since, as is attested by Socrates (Book 5, ch. 8 ), officiation beyond the boundaries of one’s own diocese was formerly a matter of indifference on account of persecutions, and, as Theodoret says, blessed Eusebius of Samosata did it as a matter of extraordinary zeal. On this account, when peace reappeared in the Church as a whole, the present Canon was adopted and promulgated. It relates neither to autocephalous Metropolitans alone, as Balsamon interpreted it, nor to Patriarchs alone, but to both these classes of dignitaries alike, according to Dositheus (p. 233 of "Those who have served as Patriarchs"), in order that each of them may serve his own province and diocese, and not interfere in one that is alien, and not confound the rights of the churches; but, on the contrary, in accordance with the Canons (cc. VI and VII, that is to say of the First, and much more in accordance with Ap. cc. XXXIV and XXXV), that the bishop of Alexandria may manage only the parishes in Egypt (the Council expressly mentioned the bishop of Alexandria because the Bishop of Alexandria with his party cooperated to have Maximus the Cynic ordained in Constantinople, while, on the other hand, great St. Gregory was ousted from office in spite of its being his diocese and parish). The metropolitans of the East are to attend to the affairs of the East, with the proviso that the prerogatives of the bishop of Antioch be duly respected, in accordance with the Canon (sc. VI) of the Nicene Council; and the metropolitans of the Asian, Pontic and Thracian domains are to manage only the provinces belonging to them (these dignitaries, according to c. XXVIII of the 4th, have to be ordained after the bishop of Constantinople). It commands, in addition, that both patriarchs and metropolitans alike refrain from interloping beyond their own dioceses and provinces with the object of ordaining others or performing other ecclesiastical services in the parishes of others, without being invited to do so; and that the synod of each particular province shall manage the ecclesiastical matters of each province of the metropolitans, whether they be elections, or ordinations, or penances, or absolutions, or any other such matters; likewise, as regarding the affairs of each diocese of the patriarchs, the diocesan synod shall govern such matters of the diocese in question, as the Nicene Council has decreed (c. VI). For the same thing is involved in the decree of the Nicene Council that no bishop shall be ordained without the consent of the metropolitan, and in which the present Council says to the effect that the synod of each province (of the metropolitan, that is to say) shall govern the affairs of each province, respectively. As for the churches of God that are situated in the midst of barbarian nations, where there either were not enough bishops to make up a synod, or it was necessary for some scholarly bishop to go there in order to bolster up the Christians in their faith. These churches, I say, ought to be managed in accordance with the prevailing custom of the Fathers. To be more explicit, neighboring and abler bishops ought to go to them, in order to supply what is missing for a local synod. Which, though contrary to Canons, yet as a matter of necessity was allowed by the Council. Read Ap. cc. XXXIV and XXXV, and c. I of the Sixth.
http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/councils_ecumenical_rudder.htm#_Toc34001968

Isn't this, for instance, the Russian argument for going across Siberia and down into North America?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28302.0.html
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 11:26:55 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2010, 07:52:02 PM »

You opened this thread just to get in another one of your stabs at the EP?  Very telling, it is... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2010, 08:08:14 PM »

You opened this thread just to get in another one of your stabs at the EP?  Very telling, it is... Roll Eyes

Telling he is wrong.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28235.0.html

Deusestveritas mentioned the canon in passing, and it just dawned on me, despite its relevance, that it hasn't entered into discussion over the OP.

don't forget the "EP bashing" tag.

The fact is, the EP is the only patriarch that claims it is the only patriarchate to expand its jurisdiction.  In fact, it seems that Cyprus is the only Church whose jurisdiction has never expanded (though it was transfered once).
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 08:12:18 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2010, 10:53:32 PM »

How Does a Jurisdiction Extend its Jurisdiction?

The Mother Church of Constantinople teaches that no Church may extend its jurisdiction.   That prerogative is given only to Constantinople by virtue of Canon 28.

As the Constantinople bishop explained last year to the British Court, the Antiochian and Serbian and Russian and other bishops are canonical interlopers in Western Europe whose presence is tolerated by Constantinople.

(Btw, the British Court did not buy this argument from Constantinople and awarded the London cathedral under legal dispute to the Church of Russia.)
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2010, 11:25:07 PM »

 I have been an Orthodox Christian for over Twenty Years and have been watching the disputes between the various Jurisdictions, and have come to the conclusion that there does need to be one Orthodox Patriarchate for the whole of the Orthodox Faithful in the Americas.  The argument that the Patriarchate of Moscow and all Russia did not have the authority to grant Independence to the Russian Church in the Americas does not hold water.  I have to wonder about the Ecumenical Patriarch.

The first of these is whether much of this has some connection to the Ecumenical Patriarch and his financial condition.  If the Greek Church in America loses its connection the Ecumenical Patriarch stands to  lose a good bit of money.  If the Ecumenical Patriarch gains the Russian and the Antiochian Churches the Ecumenical Patriarch stands to gain a good bit of wealth.

The simple truth is that the Greek Orthodox Church in the Americas does not have a large number of converts as does the Antiochian and the Russian Churches. I am not anti Greek Orthodox, but I would also love to see a single jurisdiction for the Americas.
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2010, 11:26:55 PM »

Sorry.... that should be "uncanonical interlopers."

How Does a Jurisdiction Extend its Jurisdiction?

The Mother Church of Constantinople teaches that no Church may extend its jurisdiction.   That prerogative is given only to Constantinople by virtue of Canon 28.

As the Constantinople bishop explained last year to the British Court, the Antiochian and Serbian and Russian and other bishops are canonical interlopers in Western Europe whose presence is tolerated by Constantinople.

(Btw, the British Court did not buy this argument from Constantinople and awarded the London cathedral under legal dispute to the Church of Russia.)
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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2010, 12:42:56 AM »

ialmisry, history is something I've always been interested in so I appreciate all the historical stuff you post.  However, I don't think I've ever seen you comment on the present or the future, at least not with specifics.  And if you have, can you point me to those threads?

I'm just wondering what you think about the here and now, in the year of Our Lord Jesus Christ two thousand and ten.  What do you think will happen?  For example, fine you're right.  The Russians were first so they get the Americas.  The OCA is the canonical autocephalous church and everybody else is uncanonical.  What is it exactly that you expect to happen?  Specifics please.  Once again, both at the parish level and nationally.

  I have been an Orthodox Christian for over Twenty Years and have been watching the disputes between the various Jurisdictions, and have come to the conclusion that there does need to be one Orthodox Patriarchate for the whole of the Orthodox Faithful in the Americas.

This whole issue is new to me so can you expand on why and how you came to this conclusion.  What do you think will change?  I've asked this question and nobody seems to want to answer.  So I'm hoping you will.  What do you think will change both at the parish level and on a national level?

I have to wonder about the Ecumenical Patriarch.
The first of these is whether much of this has some connection to the Ecumenical Patriarch and his financial condition.  If the Greek Church in America loses its connection the Ecumenical Patriarch stands to  lose a good bit of money.

Why do you care what the EP and the GOA does?  I'm serious.  I'm not trying to be a jerk.  But why do you care?  Why not just focus on the OCA and doing the Lord's work?

If the Ecumenical Patriarch gains the Russian and the Antiochian Churches the Ecumenical Patriarch stands to gain a good bit of wealth.

Is this guilt talking?  Just because you want the OCA to take over the GOA and it's wealth, does not mean wealth is the only thing others want.

The simple truth is that the Greek Orthodox Church in the Americas does not have a large number of converts as does the Antiochian and the Russian Churches. I am not anti Greek Orthodox, but I would also love to see a single jurisdiction for the Americas. 

The simple truth is, so what?  Converts don't get to decide what happens.
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« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2010, 09:12:07 AM »

ialmisry, history is something I've always been interested in so I appreciate all the historical stuff you post.  However, I don't think I've ever seen you comment on the present or the future, at least not with specifics.  And if you have, can you point me to those threads?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21966.msg334050.html#msg334050
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,26209.msg413069/topicseen.html#msg413069

Quote
I'm just wondering what you think about the here and now, in the year of Our Lord Jesus Christ two thousand and ten.  What do you think will happen?  For example, fine you're right.  The Russians were first so they get the Americas.  The OCA is the canonical autocephalous church and everybody else is uncanonical.  What is it exactly that you expect to happen?  Specifics please.  Once again, both at the parish level and nationally.

What I expect now, and not 1917-1970, or 1970-1994 (Ligonier) for instance? Or since the Episcopal Assembly has been convened?  And do you mean what I expect would happen, what I want to happen or what I dream would happen?  I'll leap frog over the prelinaries, awaiting you to answer those questions, and go to where we should end up.  I would prefer an interum arrangment, which Canada, the United States, and Mexico perhaps as one autocephalous Church in North America a la OCA (but renames OCNA Orthodox Church in/of North America), with its primate in New York City (NOT Washington), but with the recent doings in the EA here, that may not happen: Canada will be organized seperately, and Mexico with South America.

Which may merit an excuses of my ideas on Canada and SA, before concentrating on what I would envision for the US (which set up I would see replicated in Canada and SA).  The OCA, as the heir to the Russian Missionary/Arch-Diocese is the Mother Church of Canada and SA.  As such, a fair question may be raised at to why, if Canada and SA becomes autonomous or exarchates, why shouldn't they be under the OCA rather than say Constantinople.  The Canadians and SA may raise legitimate objection that they look at the OCA as foreign as Constantinople (hence why I would locate the primate of the OCNA in NYC, as more neutral than Washington and more historically sound according to the history of Orthodoxy here).  So in the interests of brevity until you answer the above questions, I'll skip over this issue.

In the US, I would have an autocephalous primate, with a number of archbishops, under whom would be a number of suffragan bishops.  Among the Archbishops would be archbishops who would, besides their geographical title, have the title "Defender of the Greek/Arab/Russian/Ukrainian etc. Usage" based on demongraphics and history, e.g. Boston and New England for the Albanian, Detroit and the Eastern Midwest for the Romanian, New Orleans and the South for Greek, Brooklyn and New York Arab, San Francisco and the West Russian, Sitka and Alaska for Amerindian, Wichita and the Great Plains for the WRO.  Said Archbishop would be the point man for that usage, approving liturgical texts for use in that language, speak on issues concerning that tradition on the Holy Synod, etc. They would also serve as source of appeal to the Holy Synod: if, for instance, a Greek parish in Michigan thinks the local bishop is slighting the Greeks' traditions, they can ask the Archbishop of New Orleans to bring it up before the whole Holy Synod. Some Archbishops would have only geographical title.

Within the Archdiocese, if numbers, history etc. warrant it, there will be similar bishops so charged for that Archdiocese, e.g. the bishop of Galveston, suffragan of New Orleans and the South (Defender of the Greek usage) would be the Defender of the Serbian Usage and Tradition in the Archdiocese of the South.

We would, as any autocephlous Church, have a number of metochia, which would further allay any fears of any ethnic group being swallowed up.  St. Nicholas already functions as Moscow's metochion, Holy Trinity NYC can be the one for Constantinople,  Alexandria might have one in the South (where it can engage in making blacks aware of African Orthodoxy), etc.  As a token of respect, this one Holy Synod can take up a collection from ALL parishes on SS Peter and Paul day for Antioch, on St. Andrew's day from ALL parishes for Constantinople, from All parishes on St. Tikhon's day for Russia, from ALL parishes for Alexandria and African missions on St. Mark's day, etc. The return from various Churchs would vary I suspect: i.e. Greek origin parishes may be more generous on St. Andrew's day than SS Peter and Paul, when the Arab parished may pull ahead.  But at least everyone would be aware of everyone else being in the same Church.

All the existing hierarchies would be merged into this united Holy Synod of America.  On the parish level, I don't envision a lot of change, except the center people send dues etc would be in one place, somewhat like now how most missionary work and support is going to the OCMC no matter what jurisdiction.  The geographical bishop would be commemorated, with perhaps the relevant Defender bishop being commemorated "along with the rest of the Holy Synod."

  I have been an Orthodox Christian for over Twenty Years and have been watching the disputes between the various Jurisdictions, and have come to the conclusion that there does need to be one Orthodox Patriarchate for the whole of the Orthodox Faithful in the Americas.

This whole issue is new to me so can you expand on why and how you came to this conclusion.  What do you think will change?  I've asked this question and nobody seems to want to answer.  So I'm hoping you will.  What do you think will change both at the parish level and on a national level?

Overlapping and duplication of efforts would cease, as would the situation where the Greek parishioners know about what is going on in the Constantinople, but have no clue what is going on in the Serbian parish down the block.

I have to wonder about the Ecumenical Patriarch.
The first of these is whether much of this has some connection to the Ecumenical Patriarch and his financial condition.  If the Greek Church in America loses its connection the Ecumenical Patriarch stands to  lose a good bit of money.

Why do you care what the EP and the GOA does?  I'm serious.  I'm not trying to be a jerk.  But why do you care?  Why not just focus on the OCA and doing the Lord's work?

Because it affect it.  For instance, Ligonier was killed largely from rumblings in Greece. And now, with the EP having metropolitans getting Turkish citizenship, there are questions about the role played by GOA in representing Greek (as in Greece) interests now also being influenced by the Turksih government as well.

The simple truth is that the Greek Orthodox Church in the Americas does not have a large number of converts as does the Antiochian and the Russian Churches. I am not anti Greek Orthodox, but I would also love to see a single jurisdiction for the Americas. 

The simple truth is, so what?  Converts don't get to decide what happens.
Oh?  They're as Orthodox as any other Orthodox.
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2010, 10:57:22 PM »

As for the photo above... I guess my comment is 100% accurate.  Wink


I have to wonder about the Ecumenical Patriarch.
The first of these is whether much of this has some connection to the Ecumenical Patriarch and his financial condition.  If the Greek Church in America loses its connection the Ecumenical Patriarch stands to  lose a good bit of money.

Why do you care what the EP and the GOA does?  I'm serious.  I'm not trying to be a jerk.  But why do you care?  Why not just focus on the OCA and doing the Lord's work?

Because it affect it.  For instance, Ligonier was killed largely from rumblings in Greece. And now, with the EP having metropolitans getting Turkish citizenship, there are questions about the role played by GOA in representing Greek (as in Greece) interests now also being influenced by the Turksih government as well.

Once again, why do you as a non-GOA member care what the GOA does?  Why do you care who the GOA supposedly represents, be it real or imagined?  I don't care what the OCA does, what the Catholic church does, what the YMCA does.  Why do you care what a group that you are not part of, and has no control of your life, does?  It really makes no sense.



 I have been an Orthodox Christian for over Twenty Years and have been watching the disputes between the various Jurisdictions, and have come to the conclusion that there does need to be one Orthodox Patriarchate for the whole of the Orthodox Faithful in the Americas.

This whole issue is new to me so can you expand on why and how you came to this conclusion.  What do you think will change?  I've asked this question and nobody seems to want to answer.  So I'm hoping you will.  What do you think will change both at the parish level and on a national level?

Overlapping and duplication of efforts would cease, as would the situation where the Greek parishioners know about what is going on in the Constantinople, but have no clue what is going on in the Serbian parish down the block.

I have comments/questions for the rest of your post but some other time.  I'm sure you will await with bated breath.

Can you give me specific examples of "overlapping and duplication of efforts"?  Are priests/bishops going to be laid off?  Are churches going to be closed?  What exactly is being duplicated at this point?  This is one of the benefits that pro-unity types claim, but I just don't see it, so I would like to know specifics.  Besides bishops' territories which would just be moving things around and actually more expensive in the beginning since people would need to move.

Why would Greeks all of sudden care about the Serbian parish down the street?  You said nothing will change at the parish level?  So why and how will Greeks care about the Serbs?  This goes to the heart of this "unity" matter.  You honestly do think (I guess more like hope) things will change.  So called "unity" will make everything worse.  I still won't care about that Serbian parish down the street.  I really don't know how to make it any clearer than that to you.




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« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 02:24:50 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2010, 11:46:20 PM »

As the Constantinople bishop explained last year to the British Court, the Antiochian and Serbian and Russian and other bishops are canonical interlopers in Western Europe whose presence is tolerated by Constantinople.

So what? Who then is the canonical authority in Western Europe? It wasn't "barbarian lands" as of the Council of Chalcedon, so how could that principle apply?
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« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2010, 11:50:21 PM »

Ialmisry, is the thrust of your OP that extension of jurisdiction should be done on the basis of the closest neighboring church?
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« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2010, 11:58:31 PM »

Quote
Once again, why do you as a non-GOA member care what the GOA does?  Why do you care who the GOA supposedly represents, be it real or imagined?  I don't care what the OCA does, what the Catholic church does, what the YMCA does.  Why do you care what a group that you are not part of, and has no control of your life, does?  It really makes no sense.

It's really quite simple: Unlike the YMCA or the Roman church, the OCA and the GOA are supposed to be one church.  The differing jurisdictions are an anomaly.  Regardless of whether or not institutional unity exists between the two jurisdictions we are all supposed to be One Church, what happens in any jurisdiction affects the whole.  Just as what happens in any national church affects every other national church.

As regards your closing paragraph, an institutional unity is absolutely essential to the ongoing witness of the Orthodox church of the so-called Diaspora.  The church needs converts, a tree with no fruit is to be cut off.  As it is, any inquiring Protestant or Catholic who is not already familiar with the inner workings of the Orthodox church is going to look at the differing jurisdictions and immediately assume one of two things: 1) that the different churches are merely for differing languages, and thus not for us; or 2) that the differing churches are are different denominations thus I may as well stay where I am.  The Orthodox church of the Americas cannot claim to be catholic and maintain the status quo or she proves herself to be a liar.  Even our parent countries recognize this, hence the reason for the different EAs being hashed out.

Is this going to be more expensive in the short term?  Yes.  Bishops will be moved, new cathedrals built, some priests may quit out of frustration with the new way things are done.  But it can only benefit the Church in the long run if we each submit ourselves one to another for the sake of Christ who saved us.

For what it's worth, I don't care what form that unity takes, so long as it's there.  I can understand arguments for why America is not ready for autocephalacy, what I can't understand are those who would argue against unity.  Unity is commanded of us, by Christ, by St Paul, by the Creed, and by the Church Fathers.
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2010, 12:38:31 AM »

Why do you care what the EP and the GOA does?  I'm serious.  I'm not trying to be a jerk.  But why do you care?  Why not just focus on the OCA and doing the Lord's work?

Do you think it is OK for the Archons to proclaim in a resolution that they can't practice their Orthodox Faith freely due to interference from "foreign governments" (e.g. Turkey); however, it is OK for the GOA to be influenced by the Greek Government?  Should the other Orthodox Jurisdictions in the USA have to buy into the GOA/EP intrigue just because they are in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church?

Once again, why do you as a non-GOA member care what the GOA does?  Why do you care who the GOA supposedly represents, be it real or imagined?  I don't care what the OCA does, what the Catholic church does, what the YMCA does.  Why do you care what a group that you are not part of, and has no control of your life, does? It really makes no sense.

Do you have any idea what you're saying?  Check the bolded text.   Smiley  Is the GOA a "closed communion" Orthodox Church and does Isa have no right to express concern?

Why would Greeks all of sudden care about the Serbian parish down the street?  You said nothing will change at the parish level?  So why and how will Greeks care about the Serbs?  This goes to the heart of this "unity" matter.  You honestly do think (I guess more like hope) things will change (hope and change, ironic considering your political views).  But you will get the same result as the last great hope and changer.  So called "unity" will make everything worse.  I still won't care about that Serbian parish down the street.  I really don't know how to make it any clearer than that to you.

Why should the Serbian parish down the street care about the GOA?  There is the problem when nationalism and ethnic intransigence have divided us from Christ.
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« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2010, 01:06:12 AM »

The simple truth is that the Greek Orthodox Church in the Americas does not have a large number of converts as does the Antiochian and the Russian Churches. I am not anti Greek Orthodox, but I would also love to see a single jurisdiction for the Americas.  

The simple truth is, so what?  Converts don't get to decide what happens.

Even setting administrative politics aside, every human on this planet is born pagan, and every Orthodox on this planet is a convert, so I don't see why such comments are necessary.
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« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2010, 01:35:41 AM »

^^^^

Agreed. We are all converts.
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« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2010, 07:56:29 AM »

As for the photo above... I guess my comment is 100% accurate.  Wink

Oh? Give a listen:
http://ancientfaith.com/specials/canadian_assembly_2010
As His Beatitude points out, his Holy Synod was the only one at the EA which can decide its own fate, something even the EP cannot do.

I have to wonder about the Ecumenical Patriarch.
The first of these is whether much of this has some connection to the Ecumenical Patriarch and his financial condition.  If the Greek Church in America loses its connection the Ecumenical Patriarch stands to  lose a good bit of money.

Why do you care what the EP and the GOA does?  I'm serious.  I'm not trying to be a jerk.  But why do you care?  Why not just focus on the OCA and doing the Lord's work?

Because it affect it.  For instance, Ligonier was killed largely from rumblings in Greece. And now, with the EP having metropolitans getting Turkish citizenship, there are questions about the role played by GOA in representing Greek (as in Greece) interests now also being influenced by the Turksih government as well.

Once again, why do you as a non-GOA member care what the GOA does?  Why do you care who the GOA supposedly represents, be it real or imagined?  I don't care what the OCA does, what the Catholic church does, what the YMCA does.  Why do you care what a group that you are not part of, and has no control of your life, does?  It really makes no sense.

What desert island do you live on?

As St. Paul points out, when the members of the Body say they don't need each other, the Body falls apart.  I have no interest is seeing the Orthodox Church going the way of the Anglican communion, so fragmented that it cannot said to be a communion anymore.  The GOA can't afford not to care what the OCA does: the last couple Greek parishes I've visited all had clergy on loan from the OCA.

Then there's the silly things that green pope says and does at the Vatican and elsewhere, and the VERY silly and sinful things that his archons do, that I get questioned about, as they bill themselves as administrating the head of Orthodoxy.

And then there's their potential to cause schism....

I have been an Orthodox Christian for over Twenty Years and have been watching the disputes between the various Jurisdictions, and have come to the conclusion that there does need to be one Orthodox Patriarchate for the whole of the Orthodox Faithful in the Americas.

This whole issue is new to me so can you expand on why and how you came to this conclusion.  What do you think will change?  I've asked this question and nobody seems to want to answer.  So I'm hoping you will.  What do you think will change both at the parish level and on a national level?

Overlapping and duplication of efforts would cease, as would the situation where the Greek parishioners know about what is going on in the Constantinople, but have no clue what is going on in the Serbian parish down the block.

I have comments/questions for the rest of your post but some other time.  I'm sure you will await with bated breath.

No, I have plenty else to keep myself busy.

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Can you give me specific examples of "overlapping and duplication of efforts"?

A half dozen or so national headquarters, where one is needed.

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Are priests/bishops going to be laid off?


No, put there's going to be reshuffling, making dioceses more manageable.  And I'd expect parishes that do not have a priest might get one, or one more consistently.

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Are churches going to be closed?

I'd hope not.

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What exactly is being duplicated at this point?

Do you ever go to the local Pan Orthodox Vespers for the Triumph of Orthodoxy?  The last one here I counted 6 bishops "of Chicago," and they all were not there.

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This is one of the benefits that pro-unity types claim, but I just don't see it,


On that desert island, I'm sure you can't see it.

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so I would like to know specifics.

Why don't you first tell us the benefits and wonders of the present set up, and why we should keep it.  Because now, at least on paper, the other primates of the other autocephalous Orthodox Churches say it cannot be abided.

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Besides bishops' territories which would just be moving things around and actually more expensive in the beginning since people would need to move.

Yes, well, growth is usually expesnive in the beginning.  Call it seed money.

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Why would Greeks all of sudden care about the Serbian parish down the street?


Whenn you are in the same boat with someone, you get amazingly concerned if he drills a hole in its bottom, or if you are rowing in sync.

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You said nothing will change at the parish level?

In large measure, no.  Just become less parochial.

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So why and how will Greeks care about the Serbs?


Consult boat image above.

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This goes to the heart of this "unity" matter.  You honestly do think (I guess more like hope) things will change.  So called "unity" will make everything worse.
 

Like how?

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I still won't care about that Serbian parish down the street.

So you are Greek and not Orthodox.

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 I really don't know how to make it any clearer than that to you.

It's quite clear. What I don't understand is why you care what us Orthodox do.

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Gratuitous political comments removed from post to enforce forum rule that politics can only be posted on the private Politics board...  If you don't yet have access to the Politics board but wish to see what's there, please send Fr. Chris a private message indicating your interest.  -PtA
I guess you will have to open a thread to have me respond.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 08:29:40 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2010, 08:24:57 AM »

Ialmisry, is the thrust of your OP that extension of jurisdiction should be done on the basis of the closest neighboring church?
Beyond that, historically and canonically, has been. I think Australia and NZ may be the only major exceptions.
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« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2010, 11:34:36 AM »

Why do you care what the EP and the GOA does?  I'm serious.  I'm not trying to be a jerk.  But why do you care?  Why not just focus on the OCA and doing the Lord's work?

Well, in a few years, neither the GOA nor the OCA will exist anymore, so it's time we start learning how to get along. The Orthodox Church is one church, which in the US happens to have a very screwed up ecclesiology at this time, leading to such nonsense as "who cares what other jurisdictions do?" God, make the whole idea of jurisdictions disappear very soon.

Let's not play right into the hands of those who claim Orthodoxy is just as denominational as Protestantism.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 11:35:33 AM by bogdan » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2010, 07:24:42 PM »

Ialmisry, is the thrust of your OP that extension of jurisdiction should be done on the basis of the closest neighboring church?
Beyond that, historically and canonically, has been. I think Australia and NZ may be the only major exceptions.

OK. Thanks.
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« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2010, 08:37:43 PM »

Ialmisry, is the thrust of your OP that extension of jurisdiction should be done on the basis of the closest neighboring church?
Beyond that, historically and canonically, has been. I think Australia and NZ may be the only major exceptions.

There is NO way for any jurisdiction (Church) to extend its jurisdiction.

Outside of the traditional canonical territories of the various Orthodox Churches, all territory belongs to the Patriarchate of Constantinople by virtue of Canon 28 of Chalcedon.

To conform to the canon

1. the jurisdictions (Churches) which have created uncanonical churches and missions on territories which by virtue of Canon 28 belong to Constantinople will eventually have to surrender them to Constantinople

2. when Rome and Constantinople unite, Rome will have to surrender to Constantinople its non-traditional territories such as North and South America, Australia, etc.
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« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2010, 06:14:26 AM »

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« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2010, 05:40:23 PM »

All I can say is that I find it very odd seeing those words come from you, who frequently rails against the idea of Constantinopolitan primacy.
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« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2010, 05:52:29 PM »

All I can say is that I find it very odd seeing those words come from you, who frequently rails against the idea of Constantinopolitan primacy.

This is the interpretation of Canon 28 which is believed by the faithful children of Constantinople.  Others of us, such as the Russians, can only smile when we hear these claims.  Hence the gentle humour of the tongue in cheek smilies.

It seem to me that there are three things the modern Orthodox disagree about.

1. The Calendar issue

2. Ecumenism and the extent of our participation

3.  The meaning of Canon 28 of Chalcedon.
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« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2010, 06:01:43 PM »

So you weren't actually expressing your own opinion about the jurisdiction of Constantinople?
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« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2010, 06:28:11 PM »

So you weren't actually expressing your own opinion about the jurisdiction of Constantinople?

No, I was gving voice to one facet of what is becoming a very sharp question in modern Orthodoxy - the scope of the jurisdiction which Canon 28 gives to Constantinople.  And Constantinople has been pushing its own interpretation so the question is not going away. 
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« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2010, 11:24:42 PM »

So you weren't actually expressing your own opinion about the jurisdiction of Constantinople?
You don't know sarcastic irony when you see it in print? Wink
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« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2010, 08:39:19 PM »

So you weren't actually expressing your own opinion about the jurisdiction of Constantinople?
You don't know sarcastic irony when you see it in print? Wink

I suppose sometimes not.
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« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2013, 02:18:18 AM »

I was just reminded of this:do we have a thread on when a jurisdiction needs to be divided up?
Quote
Council of Carthage (418) canon 23. It has pleased the Council to decree that Mauritania Stifensis, on account of the vastness of its territory, has been permitted, as it requested, to have a Primate, or chief Bishop, of its own, with the consent of all the Primates of African provinces and of all the Bishops thereof (as Primate of the Numidian territory assigned to him by the Council).

Interpretation.

This Canon, notwithstanding that it was a regional Canon, because of its saying that Mauritania was not to remain subject to the jurisdiction of the Metropolitan of Numidia, on account of the vastness of the territory of the one as compared with the other, and the resulting difficulty of their bishops meeting together in a Council or Synod; but, on the contrary, it was allowed to have its own Metropolitan; in spite of the fact that this Canon was a regional and "particular" Canon, it can be made a catholic and general Canon. For we learn from it that every other region covering a vast area, and consequently having portions at a great distance from other regions, ought to be allowed to have its own Metropolitan for the same reasons.
http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/councils_local_rudder.htm#_Toc72635086


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