Poll

Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?

Yes
66 (16%)
No
158 (38.3%)
both metaphorically and literally
189 (45.8%)

Total Members Voted: 413

Author Topic: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy  (Read 1436348 times)

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Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6120 on: June 07, 2017, 03:35:38 PM »
Quote
What reason would God have to lie to us about the age of the Earth?
God never says how old the Earth is.

PP

Yet, He gave us the genealogies of Genesis which also say how old everyone from Adam to Abraham was, and you can add up the numbers and find that the Earth is currently 7525 full years old (Creation was 5509 B.C.)

I personally feel that we are living on a young Earth about 6000-7000 years old.
God gave Moses the Creation story of Genesis while he was on Mt. Sinai, and Moses wrote it down.
What reason would God have to lie to us about the age of the Earth?
what do you mean when you say you "feel" the Earth is 6000 years old? It is older. Much older. If you want more People to become christians you should give up the silly idea about the Earth being 6000 years old.

I mean that I believe the Bible which clearly states the age of the Earth.
Also, if we want to convert people to Christianity, maybe we should give up those other "silly" ideas like
  • The Virgin Birth
  • The Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ
  • The Resurrection of Jesus
  • Miracles
  • That Jesus is God, the Trinity
Of course, this is the problem.  These ideas are just as "silly" to atheists as the Creation, and yet, they are central teachings of the Bible.  We can't just give up what God has told us because it's become "out of style" with nonbelievers.
The important thing is the truth. The truth is that the Earth is NOT Only 6000 years old.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6121 on: June 07, 2017, 03:52:07 PM »
I believe in the Bible!
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6122 on: June 07, 2017, 04:52:45 PM »
Quote
What reason would God have to lie to us about the age of the Earth?
God never says how old the Earth is.

PP

Yet, He gave us the genealogies of Genesis which also say how old everyone from Adam to Abraham was, and you can add up the numbers and find that the Earth is currently 7525 full years old (Creation was 5509 B.C.)

I personally feel that we are living on a young Earth about 6000-7000 years old.
God gave Moses the Creation story of Genesis while he was on Mt. Sinai, and Moses wrote it down.
What reason would God have to lie to us about the age of the Earth?
what do you mean when you say you "feel" the Earth is 6000 years old? It is older. Much older. If you want more People to become christians you should give up the silly idea about the Earth being 6000 years old.

I mean that I believe the Bible which clearly states the age of the Earth.
Also, if we want to convert people to Christianity, maybe we should give up those other "silly" ideas like
  • The Virgin Birth
  • The Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ
  • The Resurrection of Jesus
  • Miracles
  • That Jesus is God, the Trinity
Of course, this is the problem.  These ideas are just as "silly" to atheists as the Creation, and yet, they are central teachings of the Bible.  We can't just give up what God has told us because it's become "out of style" with nonbelievers.
The important thing is the truth. The truth is that the Earth is NOT Only 6000 years old.

You don't even know the truth of your salvation, based on what you've said so often, and how are you going to declare the truth of God's work in the whole world?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6123 on: June 07, 2017, 04:56:17 PM »
Quote
What reason would God have to lie to us about the age of the Earth?
God never says how old the Earth is.

PP

Yet, He gave us the genealogies of Genesis which also say how old everyone from Adam to Abraham was, and you can add up the numbers and find that the Earth is currently 7525 full years old (Creation was 5509 B.C.)

I personally feel that we are living on a young Earth about 6000-7000 years old.
God gave Moses the Creation story of Genesis while he was on Mt. Sinai, and Moses wrote it down.
What reason would God have to lie to us about the age of the Earth?
what do you mean when you say you "feel" the Earth is 6000 years old? It is older. Much older. If you want more People to become christians you should give up the silly idea about the Earth being 6000 years old.

I mean that I believe the Bible which clearly states the age of the Earth.
Also, if we want to convert people to Christianity, maybe we should give up those other "silly" ideas like
  • The Virgin Birth
  • The Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ
  • The Resurrection of Jesus
  • Miracles
  • That Jesus is God, the Trinity
Of course, this is the problem.  These ideas are just as "silly" to atheists as the Creation, and yet, they are central teachings of the Bible.  We can't just give up what God has told us because it's become "out of style" with nonbelievers.
The important thing is the truth. The truth is that the Earth is NOT Only 6000 years old.

You don't even know the truth of your salvation, based on what you've said so often, and how are you going to declare the truth of God's work in the whole world?
What do you mean by the truth of my salvation? Believe what you want. I am not going to persecute you. It is very interesting when Christians are scepticists!
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 04:58:18 PM by beebert »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6124 on: June 07, 2017, 04:59:57 PM »
Quote
What reason would God have to lie to us about the age of the Earth?
God never says how old the Earth is.

PP

Yet, He gave us the genealogies of Genesis which also say how old everyone from Adam to Abraham was, and you can add up the numbers and find that the Earth is currently 7525 full years old (Creation was 5509 B.C.)

I personally feel that we are living on a young Earth about 6000-7000 years old.
God gave Moses the Creation story of Genesis while he was on Mt. Sinai, and Moses wrote it down.
What reason would God have to lie to us about the age of the Earth?
what do you mean when you say you "feel" the Earth is 6000 years old? It is older. Much older. If you want more People to become christians you should give up the silly idea about the Earth being 6000 years old.

I mean that I believe the Bible which clearly states the age of the Earth.
Also, if we want to convert people to Christianity, maybe we should give up those other "silly" ideas like
  • The Virgin Birth
  • The Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ
  • The Resurrection of Jesus
  • Miracles
  • That Jesus is God, the Trinity
Of course, this is the problem.  These ideas are just as "silly" to atheists as the Creation, and yet, they are central teachings of the Bible.  We can't just give up what God has told us because it's become "out of style" with nonbelievers.
The important thing is the truth. The truth is that the Earth is NOT Only 6000 years old.

You don't even know the truth of your salvation, based on what you've said so often, and how are you going to declare the truth of God's work in the whole world?
What do you mean by the truth of my salvation? Believe what you want. I am not going to persecute you.

I mean your off-again on-again romance with the idea you're special enough to God to have been damned predestinedly.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6125 on: June 07, 2017, 05:14:57 PM »
Quote
What reason would God have to lie to us about the age of the Earth?
God never says how old the Earth is.

PP

Yet, He gave us the genealogies of Genesis which also say how old everyone from Adam to Abraham was, and you can add up the numbers and find that the Earth is currently 7525 full years old (Creation was 5509 B.C.)

I personally feel that we are living on a young Earth about 6000-7000 years old.
God gave Moses the Creation story of Genesis while he was on Mt. Sinai, and Moses wrote it down.
What reason would God have to lie to us about the age of the Earth?
what do you mean when you say you "feel" the Earth is 6000 years old? It is older. Much older. If you want more People to become christians you should give up the silly idea about the Earth being 6000 years old.

I mean that I believe the Bible which clearly states the age of the Earth.
Also, if we want to convert people to Christianity, maybe we should give up those other "silly" ideas like
  • The Virgin Birth
  • The Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ
  • The Resurrection of Jesus
  • Miracles
  • That Jesus is God, the Trinity
Of course, this is the problem.  These ideas are just as "silly" to atheists as the Creation, and yet, they are central teachings of the Bible.  We can't just give up what God has told us because it's become "out of style" with nonbelievers.
The important thing is the truth. The truth is that the Earth is NOT Only 6000 years old.

You don't even know the truth of your salvation, based on what you've said so often, and how are you going to declare the truth of God's work in the whole world?
What do you mean by the truth of my salvation? Believe what you want. I am not going to persecute you.

I mean your off-again on-again romance with the idea you're special enough to God to have been damned predestinedly.
Sometimes I Believe that yes. Which would make me no special. Other times I just Think God doesnt care. Or that he has damned me now. I still Believe the Earth is older than 6000 years, even if John Macarthur or any other fundamentalist/evangelical wants to damn me because of it. Christians are supposed to be the persecuted. Not the persecutors.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6126 on: June 07, 2017, 05:30:27 PM »
I believe in the Bible!

And in Mor Ephrem!

Quote
"No one should think that the Creation of Six Days is an allegory; it is likewise impermissible to say that what seems, according to the account, to have been created in six days, was created in a single instant, and likewise that certain names presented in this account either signify nothing, or signify something else. On the contrary, we must know that just as the heaven and the earth which were created in the beginning are actually the heaven and the earth and not something else understood under the names of heaven and earth, so also everything else that is spoken of as being created and brought into order after the creation of heaven and earth is not empty names, but the very essence of the created natures corresponds to the force of these names."

St Ephrem the Syrian, Commentary on Genesis, ch. 1
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6127 on: June 12, 2017, 02:31:20 AM »
.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 08:46:33 PM by mcarmichael »
To my shame, I may have been very drunk when I wrote this.

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Offline knish

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6128 on: June 14, 2017, 11:48:30 AM »
The Fathers saw their cosmological views as reflecting the intention of the Scriptures, and they believed that this very intention of the Scriptures was one determined by the Faith of the Church. For them, therefore, to accept the theory of evolution would be tantamount to them admitting that they erred in their understanding of the Faith...

With the possible exception of one or two Fathers, I just don't see what you mean.  If the Fathers knew about evolution I believe that they wouldn't have insisited on putting it on the same "playing field" as science, and then challenged it to a football match.  That's the mistake that the Western Church made with Galileo.  Ever since that time, the West has tried to justify its faith in scientific terms, since the earth does indeed revolve around the sun, and not vice-versa.  People have done silly things like analyse consecrated hosts under microscopes to "prove" that they are not really bread (and thus science keeps on "winning"; pure rationalism becomes a faith to some and anything that is not "rational" must by definition be "irrational"). Nowadays, some Jesuits who should know better say that "of course life changes and develops only by chance, evolution has proved that, but we can still see 'God in the gaps' for things that can't be explained by evolution."  Total apostate garbage!  Even though exciting things are happening today in terms of some physicists realising that the spritual has much more to do with how the universe works than they ever really imagined, there is a lot of truth in what ytterbiumanalyst states when he says that science and theology are really very separate things.  You don't think that the Fathers would have seen this and pursued their line of reasoning and not have been disturbed by findings concering evolution?  Perhaps you do acknowledge this, and I am missing something?

Yet, we do have fathers who knew about evolution and flat out rejected it. Why? Because it's entirely incompatible with biblical creation, the mere existance of Adam of Eve (two saints of the Orthodox Church, I should remind you), and the teaching of the holy fathers. It also makes God the author of death disease and destruction -- this, perhaps most contrary to the teaching of the Church.

St Paisios of the Holy Mountain: http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/07/elder-paisios-on-darwinian-and-theistic.html -
St Justin Popovic - http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/06/st-justin-popovich-orthodoxy-and-theory.html
Excuse the links, please. Won't let me copy past

St Nektarios of Pentapolis:"The followers of pithecogeny [the derivation of man from the apes] are ignorant of man and of his lofty destiny, because they have denied him his soul and Divine revelation. They have rejected the Spirit, and the Spirit has abandoned them. They withdrew from God, and God withdrew from them; for, thinking they were wise, they became fools… If they had acted with knowledge, they would not have lowered themselves so much, nor would they have taken pride in tracing the origin of the human race to the most shameless of animals. Rightly did the Prophet say of them: `Man being in honour, did not understand; he is compared to the dumb beasts, and is become like unto them."

St John of Kronstadt: The Holy Scriptures speak more truly and more clearly of the world than the world itself or the arrangement of the earthly strata; the scriptures of nature within it, being dead and voiceless, cannot express anything definite. "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?" Were you with God when He created the universe? "Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being His counseller, hath taught Him?" And yet you geologists boast that you have understood the mind of the Lord, in the arrangement of strata, and maintained it in spite of Holy Writ! You believe more in the dead letters of the earthly strata, in the soulless earth, than in the Divinely-inspired words of the great prophet Moses, who saw God.




Offline Alkis

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6129 on: June 14, 2017, 11:53:55 AM »
I believe that we must look at Genesis 1-11 metaphorically. I don't care if Adam and Eve were historical persons. I care about what our Scriptures try to teach about God, creation and mankind. I personally believe that only literal interpretation is protestantism and not orthodoxy. Also, I fully believe the scientific proofs and I must do it. I realise that our Fathers used the knowlendge of their age and not just the Bible.
For You keep my lamp burning; Lord my God You illumine my darkness. (Psalm 17:29)

Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6130 on: June 14, 2017, 12:03:57 PM »
I believe that we must look at Genesis 1-11 metaphorically. I don't care if Adam and Eve were historical persons. I care about what our Scriptures try to teach about God, creation and mankind. I personally believe that only literal interpretation is protestantism and not orthodoxy. Also, I fully believe the scientific proofs and I must do it. I realise that our Fathers used the knowlendge of their age and not just the Bible.
+1
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Offline WPM

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6131 on: June 14, 2017, 01:00:21 PM »
I believe Creation is recorded by the age of the fossil and rock formations.
Learn meditation.

Offline knish

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6132 on: June 14, 2017, 03:12:56 PM »
I guess the central question is, does Orthodoxy require us to believe that humanity was once perfect?

I don't know; all I know is that the Nicene-Constantinople Creed requires me to believe that Jesus Christ, our Lord, Light from Light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, one in essence with the Father, through Whom all things were made, for us, men, and for our salvation came down from heaven and became incarnate etc. Beyond that, AFAIK, there are all kinds of views and writings and expressions of faith, but I am not sure that any single one of those is binding for ALL Orthodox.
How utterly ridiculous. Guess we can just reject the episcopate, the priesthood, the real presence of Christ in the eucharist, etc. etc. etc.

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6133 on: June 14, 2017, 03:42:17 PM »
I guess the central question is, does Orthodoxy require us to believe that humanity was once perfect?

I don't know; all I know is that the Nicene-Constantinople Creed requires me to believe that Jesus Christ, our Lord, Light from Light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, one in essence with the Father, through Whom all things were made, for us, men, and for our salvation came down from heaven and became incarnate etc. Beyond that, AFAIK, there are all kinds of views and writings and expressions of faith, but I am not sure that any single one of those is binding for ALL Orthodox.
How utterly ridiculous. Guess we can just reject the episcopate, the priesthood, the real presence of Christ in the eucharist, etc. etc. etc.

And there are numerous Fathers who say that a man's seed is complete and only needs to be planted in a woman's womb. In short, there is no such thing as an egg according to them. So are you going to deny biology too?
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline knish

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6134 on: June 14, 2017, 05:03:39 PM »
St. Nektarios, St. John of Kronstadt, St. Justin Popovich, Elder Paisios, St. Barsanuphius of Optina --- which one of them was American?
Did any of them really care to take sides in the creationism/evolution debate, or is this merely a concern you have projected onto them?

well despite your refusal to believe that Orthodox Saints could actually interpret Genesis literally, they did.
Projecting onto me something I never said is not necessary.  You only weaken your argument when you misrepresent your opponent's position like that.  I never stated any disbelief that Orthodox saints could interpret Genesis literally.  All I stated was that I'm not sure we can be so dogmatic as to restrict our interpretation of Genesis solely to the literalist approach that many of the Fathers did use.  If you're going to represent my point of view, make sure you represent it truthfully and accurately.

I have already posted quotes from most of them listed in which they specifically spoke/wrote against evolution. Elder Paisios said the notion that Christ is descendent of non-human life forms is blasphemy, St. Justin Popovich said evolution is new age, St. John of Kronstadt said that every person in the Bible is literally real and that we must look to Tradition for hte answers to our origin, not to the soulless strata of the earth, and i forget what St. Barsanuphius and St. Nektarios had to say specifically but Im pretty sure ive already quoted them somewhere in this thread.


ok heres the quotes that i already posted in this thread:

St. Barsanuphius of Optina: "The English philosopher Darwin created an entire system according to which life is a struggle for existence, a struggle of the strong against the weak, where those that are conquered are doomed to destruction . . . This is already the beginning of a bestial philosophy, and those who come to believe in it wouldn't think twice about killing a man, assaulting a woman, or robbing their closest friend -- and they would do all this calmly, with a full recognition of their right to commit these crimes." From Elder Barsanuphius of Optina, published by St. Herman's

St. Nektarios: "The two volumes of the work Philosphie zoologique are in their entirety intended to uphold the degrading evolutionary theory regarding man. The first volume seeks to prove that the human organism evolved from that of an ape, as a result of chance circumstances. And the second volume seeks to prove that the distinctive excellences of the human mind are nothing but an extension of a power which the animals have, differing only in degree. Having weak and badly set foundations . . . Lamarck claims to prove that in earlier times nature produced through marvelous evolution one species from another, earlier one. He seeks to establish a gradual chain having successive (not contemporaneous) links and thus to produce finally the human species through a metamorphosis that is the reverse of the truth, and not less marvelous than the transformations one reads about in myths!" -- quoted in Constantine Cavarnos' Biological Evolutionism.

This article http://orthodoxnorth.net/evolution_new_fundamentalism_pt_1.htm tells us that St. Justin Popovich identified Darnwin's ideas with new age religion

Elder Paisios: "...And if one thinks that from a human being, the Most Holy Theotokos, Christ was born! Then what we are saying is that a monkey was an ancestor of Christ? What blasphemy!!" --Elder Paisios of Mount Athos --- from the forthcoming updated Genesis, Creation, and Early Man

St. John of Kronstadt:  "The Holy Scriptures speak more truly and more clearly of the world than the world itself or the arrangement of the earthly strata; the scriptures of nature within it, being dead and voiceless, cannot express anything definite. "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?" Were you with God when He created the universe? "Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being His counseller, hath taught Him?" And yet you geologists boast that you have understood the mind of the Lord, in the arrangement of strata, and maintained it in spite of Holy Writ! You believe more in the dead letters of the earthly strata, in the soulless earth, than in the Divinely-inspired words of the great prophet Moses, who saw God." --- My Life in Christ
So what if many of our saints spoke against evolution?  Were they infallible?

I know I'm hammering on a question I've asked many times before, but I'm not yet satisfied with any of the answers you've given.  Besides, you've been beating this dead horse pretty hard; I don't see why I shouldn't join you. :P
You won't be satisfied with any of his answers because you stubbornly reject what the Church so clearly teaches. he's laid it out through councils, Church fathers, iconography and hymnography. Your pathetic attempts at widening the goal-posts are fooling no one but yourself. This is the teaching of the Church. Either accept it, or don't call yourself Orthodox.

Offline Arachne

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6135 on: June 14, 2017, 05:14:12 PM »
St. Nektarios, St. John of Kronstadt, St. Justin Popovich, Elder Paisios, St. Barsanuphius of Optina --- which one of them was American?
Did any of them really care to take sides in the creationism/evolution debate, or is this merely a concern you have projected onto them?

well despite your refusal to believe that Orthodox Saints could actually interpret Genesis literally, they did.
Projecting onto me something I never said is not necessary.  You only weaken your argument when you misrepresent your opponent's position like that.  I never stated any disbelief that Orthodox saints could interpret Genesis literally.  All I stated was that I'm not sure we can be so dogmatic as to restrict our interpretation of Genesis solely to the literalist approach that many of the Fathers did use.  If you're going to represent my point of view, make sure you represent it truthfully and accurately.

I have already posted quotes from most of them listed in which they specifically spoke/wrote against evolution. Elder Paisios said the notion that Christ is descendent of non-human life forms is blasphemy, St. Justin Popovich said evolution is new age, St. John of Kronstadt said that every person in the Bible is literally real and that we must look to Tradition for hte answers to our origin, not to the soulless strata of the earth, and i forget what St. Barsanuphius and St. Nektarios had to say specifically but Im pretty sure ive already quoted them somewhere in this thread.


ok heres the quotes that i already posted in this thread:

St. Barsanuphius of Optina: "The English philosopher Darwin created an entire system according to which life is a struggle for existence, a struggle of the strong against the weak, where those that are conquered are doomed to destruction . . . This is already the beginning of a bestial philosophy, and those who come to believe in it wouldn't think twice about killing a man, assaulting a woman, or robbing their closest friend -- and they would do all this calmly, with a full recognition of their right to commit these crimes." From Elder Barsanuphius of Optina, published by St. Herman's

St. Nektarios: "The two volumes of the work Philosphie zoologique are in their entirety intended to uphold the degrading evolutionary theory regarding man. The first volume seeks to prove that the human organism evolved from that of an ape, as a result of chance circumstances. And the second volume seeks to prove that the distinctive excellences of the human mind are nothing but an extension of a power which the animals have, differing only in degree. Having weak and badly set foundations . . . Lamarck claims to prove that in earlier times nature produced through marvelous evolution one species from another, earlier one. He seeks to establish a gradual chain having successive (not contemporaneous) links and thus to produce finally the human species through a metamorphosis that is the reverse of the truth, and not less marvelous than the transformations one reads about in myths!" -- quoted in Constantine Cavarnos' Biological Evolutionism.

This article http://orthodoxnorth.net/evolution_new_fundamentalism_pt_1.htm tells us that St. Justin Popovich identified Darnwin's ideas with new age religion

Elder Paisios: "...And if one thinks that from a human being, the Most Holy Theotokos, Christ was born! Then what we are saying is that a monkey was an ancestor of Christ? What blasphemy!!" --Elder Paisios of Mount Athos --- from the forthcoming updated Genesis, Creation, and Early Man

St. John of Kronstadt:  "The Holy Scriptures speak more truly and more clearly of the world than the world itself or the arrangement of the earthly strata; the scriptures of nature within it, being dead and voiceless, cannot express anything definite. "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?" Were you with God when He created the universe? "Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being His counseller, hath taught Him?" And yet you geologists boast that you have understood the mind of the Lord, in the arrangement of strata, and maintained it in spite of Holy Writ! You believe more in the dead letters of the earthly strata, in the soulless earth, than in the Divinely-inspired words of the great prophet Moses, who saw God." --- My Life in Christ
So what if many of our saints spoke against evolution?  Were they infallible?

I know I'm hammering on a question I've asked many times before, but I'm not yet satisfied with any of the answers you've given.  Besides, you've been beating this dead horse pretty hard; I don't see why I shouldn't join you. :P
You won't be satisfied with any of his answers because you stubbornly reject what the Church so clearly teaches. he's laid it out through councils, Church fathers, iconography and hymnography. Your pathetic attempts at widening the goal-posts are fooling no one but yourself. This is the teaching of the Church. Either accept it, or don't call yourself Orthodox.

You do realise that the people you are quoting have been gone from the forum for years.
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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6136 on: June 22, 2017, 06:26:23 PM »
Speaking of American  saints that interpreted Genesis literally, Fr. Seraphim Rose did. However, even though I am skeptical of the standard account of evolution taught in biology class, I still believe that it is highly unlikely that creation literally followed Genesis, with 6 24-hour days. I believe that each day was a period of time, presumably several million years, to be consistent with the scientific age of the Earth.

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6137 on: June 22, 2017, 08:57:30 PM »
Either accept it, or don't call yourself Orthodox.
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6138 on: June 22, 2017, 11:40:39 PM »
Evolution works the purposes of God and should be commemorated in the church. Particularly the way, as progressives constantly remind us, Evolution has chosen in its wisdom to end so many genetic lines in our day, thousands to homosexuality and transsexuality, millions to sheer confusion of what the purpose of the sexual act is. This merely a more exciting example of its continual scourging of mankind, the common ones of instinct for violence in creatures and the inherent horrific torment of its methods overall being so omnipotent they can be taken for granted. Yes, maim, madden, and mortify mankind, O Evolutionary Power! by your ways so complex and indirect they require the perpetual attention of myriads of researchers and apologists, true priests.
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6139 on: June 23, 2017, 11:41:54 AM »
St. Nektarios, St. John of Kronstadt, St. Justin Popovich, Elder Paisios, St. Barsanuphius of Optina --- which one of them was American?
Did any of them really care to take sides in the creationism/evolution debate, or is this merely a concern you have projected onto them?

well despite your refusal to believe that Orthodox Saints could actually interpret Genesis literally, they did.
Projecting onto me something I never said is not necessary.  You only weaken your argument when you misrepresent your opponent's position like that.  I never stated any disbelief that Orthodox saints could interpret Genesis literally.  All I stated was that I'm not sure we can be so dogmatic as to restrict our interpretation of Genesis solely to the literalist approach that many of the Fathers did use.  If you're going to represent my point of view, make sure you represent it truthfully and accurately.

I have already posted quotes from most of them listed in which they specifically spoke/wrote against evolution. Elder Paisios said the notion that Christ is descendent of non-human life forms is blasphemy, St. Justin Popovich said evolution is new age, St. John of Kronstadt said that every person in the Bible is literally real and that we must look to Tradition for hte answers to our origin, not to the soulless strata of the earth, and i forget what St. Barsanuphius and St. Nektarios had to say specifically but Im pretty sure ive already quoted them somewhere in this thread.


ok heres the quotes that i already posted in this thread:

St. Barsanuphius of Optina: "The English philosopher Darwin created an entire system according to which life is a struggle for existence, a struggle of the strong against the weak, where those that are conquered are doomed to destruction . . . This is already the beginning of a bestial philosophy, and those who come to believe in it wouldn't think twice about killing a man, assaulting a woman, or robbing their closest friend -- and they would do all this calmly, with a full recognition of their right to commit these crimes." From Elder Barsanuphius of Optina, published by St. Herman's

St. Nektarios: "The two volumes of the work Philosphie zoologique are in their entirety intended to uphold the degrading evolutionary theory regarding man. The first volume seeks to prove that the human organism evolved from that of an ape, as a result of chance circumstances. And the second volume seeks to prove that the distinctive excellences of the human mind are nothing but an extension of a power which the animals have, differing only in degree. Having weak and badly set foundations . . . Lamarck claims to prove that in earlier times nature produced through marvelous evolution one species from another, earlier one. He seeks to establish a gradual chain having successive (not contemporaneous) links and thus to produce finally the human species through a metamorphosis that is the reverse of the truth, and not less marvelous than the transformations one reads about in myths!" -- quoted in Constantine Cavarnos' Biological Evolutionism.

This article http://orthodoxnorth.net/evolution_new_fundamentalism_pt_1.htm tells us that St. Justin Popovich identified Darnwin's ideas with new age religion

Elder Paisios: "...And if one thinks that from a human being, the Most Holy Theotokos, Christ was born! Then what we are saying is that a monkey was an ancestor of Christ? What blasphemy!!" --Elder Paisios of Mount Athos --- from the forthcoming updated Genesis, Creation, and Early Man

St. John of Kronstadt:  "The Holy Scriptures speak more truly and more clearly of the world than the world itself or the arrangement of the earthly strata; the scriptures of nature within it, being dead and voiceless, cannot express anything definite. "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?" Were you with God when He created the universe? "Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being His counseller, hath taught Him?" And yet you geologists boast that you have understood the mind of the Lord, in the arrangement of strata, and maintained it in spite of Holy Writ! You believe more in the dead letters of the earthly strata, in the soulless earth, than in the Divinely-inspired words of the great prophet Moses, who saw God." --- My Life in Christ
So what if many of our saints spoke against evolution?  Were they infallible?

I know I'm hammering on a question I've asked many times before, but I'm not yet satisfied with any of the answers you've given.  Besides, you've been beating this dead horse pretty hard; I don't see why I shouldn't join you. :P
You won't be satisfied with any of his answers because you stubbornly reject what the Church so clearly teaches. he's laid it out through councils, Church fathers, iconography and hymnography. Your pathetic attempts at widening the goal-posts are fooling no one but yourself. This is the teaching of the Church. Either accept it, or don't call yourself Orthodox.
I agree Though with Origen and Bentley Hart and others who has had the courage and unusual ability to use their brains.  Bentley Hart for example notes that biblical literalism—a very recent phenomenon, as he points out—requires one to believe “that Adam could have hidden from [God] behind a tree,” while Origen thought it was self-evident “that these are figural tales, communicating spiritual mysteries, and certainly not historical records.” And Hart is right to hold “young earth creationists…who believe that there really was a Noah who built a giant ark to rescue a compendious menagerie from a universal deluge” partly responsible for the proliferation of lazy atheist manifestoes.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 11:42:34 AM by beebert »
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6140 on: June 23, 2017, 11:56:53 AM »
I agree Though with Origen and Bentley Hart and others who has had the courage and unusual ability to use their brains.  Bentley Hart for example notes that biblical literalism—a very recent phenomenon, as he points out—requires one to believe “that Adam could have hidden from [God] behind a tree”...

Why would it require the reader to believe that it is possible for a human being to escape God's gaze by hiding behind a tree as opposed, say, to requiring that Adam could have thought it was possible? 

Quote
...while Origen thought it was self-evident “that these are figural tales, communicating spiritual mysteries, and certainly not historical records.” And Hart is right to hold “young earth creationists…who believe that there really was a Noah who built a giant ark to rescue a compendious menagerie from a universal deluge” partly responsible for the proliferation of lazy atheist manifestoes.

One wonders what the evolutionaries are to blame for. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6141 on: June 23, 2017, 01:23:34 PM »
I agree Though with Origen and Bentley Hart and others who has had the courage and unusual ability to use their brains.  Bentley Hart for example notes that biblical literalism—a very recent phenomenon, as he points out—requires one to believe “that Adam could have hidden from [God] behind a tree”...

Why would it require the reader to believe that it is possible for a human being to escape God's gaze by hiding behind a tree as opposed, say, to requiring that Adam could have thought it was possible? 

Quote
...while Origen thought it was self-evident “that these are figural tales, communicating spiritual mysteries, and certainly not historical records.” And Hart is right to hold “young earth creationists…who believe that there really was a Noah who built a giant ark to rescue a compendious menagerie from a universal deluge” partly responsible for the proliferation of lazy atheist manifestoes.

One wonders what the evolutionaries are to blame for.
I agree with both Your statements. They dont contradict What I Said Though. IF I understood You correctly, the thought about Adam thinking he could escape God sort of suggests that the old testament is more about man's perception of God's revelations rather than about how God actually is?
Well... evolutionsts can be blamed for plenty. It is wrong to blame Darwin Though. Individuals are not as often mad as collectives and masses that are slaves under the herd-mind. For the herd, insanity and evil is almost a rule. We might as well blame all groups. Christians, but not Christ etc. In some cases Though it seems valid to blame both: Stalin and stalinists, Hitler and nazis... But Where do we draw the limit?
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Offline AlioshaKaramazov

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6142 on: June 23, 2017, 02:43:17 PM »
I agree Though with Origen and Bentley Hart and others who has had the courage and unusual ability to use their brains.  Bentley Hart for example notes that biblical literalism—a very recent phenomenon, as he points out—requires one to believe “that Adam could have hidden from [God] behind a tree,” while Origen thought it was self-evident “that these are figural tales, communicating spiritual mysteries, and certainly not historical records.” And Hart is right to hold “young earth creationists…who believe that there really was a Noah who built a giant ark to rescue a compendious menagerie from a universal deluge” partly responsible for the proliferation of lazy atheist manifestoes.

Do you (and Hart) realize that as far as we know all Church Fathers were YECs, just not of the Protestant kind, right? I'm still open to theories and ways to reconcile evolution with Genesis (though I'm not as optimistic as before), but I find it annoying that many theistic evolutionists base their arguments on trying to show that an allegorical reading is incompatible with a literal one (it's not, and I doubt even the most allegorist Fathers held such a view). At least have the courage to say that we know more about the world with our infallible profane science than the Fathers ever did, and that they are wrong on this topic.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2017, 02:44:10 PM by AlioshaKaramazov »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6143 on: June 23, 2017, 03:01:21 PM »
IF I understood You correctly, the thought about Adam thinking he could escape God sort of suggests that the old testament is more about man's perception of God's revelations rather than about how God actually is?

What human language could possibly encapsulate "how God actually is"? 

Quote
Well... evolutionsts can be blamed for plenty. It is wrong to blame Darwin Though. Individuals are not as often mad as collectives and masses that are slaves under the herd-mind. For the herd, insanity and evil is almost a rule. We might as well blame all groups. Christians, but not Christ etc. In some cases Though it seems valid to blame both: Stalin and stalinists, Hitler and nazis... But Where do we draw the limit?

I think advocates of "science" are more stupid than they'd like to admit. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6144 on: June 23, 2017, 03:29:56 PM »
IF I understood You correctly, the thought about Adam thinking he could escape God sort of suggests that the old testament is more about man's perception of God's revelations rather than about how God actually is?

What human language could possibly encapsulate "how God actually is"? 

Quote
Well... evolutionsts can be blamed for plenty. It is wrong to blame Darwin Though. Individuals are not as often mad as collectives and masses that are slaves under the herd-mind. For the herd, insanity and evil is almost a rule. We might as well blame all groups. Christians, but not Christ etc. In some cases Though it seems valid to blame both: Stalin and stalinists, Hitler and nazis... But Where do we draw the limit?

I think advocates of "science" are more stupid than they'd like to admit.
No human Language. I agree. So I think we are on agreement on this, no?

I think too. Positivism is stupid and is What is the world view of many promoters of science. But to reject the achievements of science completely is also stupid
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6145 on: June 23, 2017, 03:31:52 PM »
IF I understood You correctly, the thought about Adam thinking he could escape God sort of suggests that the old testament is more about man's perception of God's revelations rather than about how God actually is?

What human language could possibly encapsulate "how God actually is"? 

Quote
Well... evolutionsts can be blamed for plenty. It is wrong to blame Darwin Though. Individuals are not as often mad as collectives and masses that are slaves under the herd-mind. For the herd, insanity and evil is almost a rule. We might as well blame all groups. Christians, but not Christ etc. In some cases Though it seems valid to blame both: Stalin and stalinists, Hitler and nazis... But Where do we draw the limit?

I think advocates of "science" are more stupid than they'd like to admit.
No human Language. I agree. So I think we are on agreement on this, no?

I'm not sure, but I hope you agree with me. 

Quote
I think too. Positivism is stupid and is What is the world view of many promoters of science. But to reject the achievements of science completely is also stupid

No one does that. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6146 on: June 23, 2017, 03:47:02 PM »
It is wrong to blame Darwin Though.

In fact it's right and very easy to blame Darwin for many things. Put down his hagiographers and turn to his letters, and books such as Ascent of Man. He was a horrid little Victorian with all the usual fin de siècle rottenness. His sidekick (and only reason for making it into history) Mr. Huxley wrote essays and speeches that make Dr. Goebbels almost sympathetic. Further, he was hardly some originator of theory, as biological evolution was the standard in the French Academy in his day and was widely entertained throughout Europe, geological evolution was established worldwide, and socio-cultural evolution (what we would call anthropology) had been the basis of European political thought for at least a century. For gosh sake, the man's own grandfather was a leading evolutionist. Last but not least, he was wrong about everything. Thus the need for the vigrous neo-Darwinism less than a generation later.
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6147 on: June 23, 2017, 05:04:36 PM »
Turkey is jumping on the anti-Darwinian train:

Quote
Darwin’s theory of evolution has been excluded from the most recent draft of Turkey’s new national curriculum, which will be released following the Eid al-Fitr holiday, the head of the Education Ministry’s curriculum board, Alpaslan Durmuş, has said.

Durmuş told educators during an Ankara seminar on June 20 that the ministry had presented the draft to President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, who has approved it.

Accordingly, the “Origin of Life and Evolution” section, which he described as “controversial,” will be removed from biology classes in high schools starting in 2019.
....
Academics from top universities in Turkey previously criticized the prospective move, telling the Education Ministry that the only country from which evolutionary theory was excluded in school education was Saudi Arabia.
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6148 on: June 23, 2017, 05:27:45 PM »
Turkey is jumping on the anti-Darwinian train:

Quote
Darwin’s theory of evolution has been excluded from the most recent draft of Turkey’s new national curriculum, which will be released following the Eid al-Fitr holiday, the head of the Education Ministry’s curriculum board, Alpaslan Durmuş, has said.

Durmuş told educators during an Ankara seminar on June 20 that the ministry had presented the draft to President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, who has approved it.

Accordingly, the “Origin of Life and Evolution” section, which he described as “controversial,” will be removed from biology classes in high schools starting in 2019.
....
Academics from top universities in Turkey previously criticized the prospective move, telling the Education Ministry that the only country from which evolutionary theory was excluded in school education was Saudi Arabia.

Maybe you mean not getting on the pro-Darwinian train. Not every people makes all the progressive station-changes with their eyes shut -- mankind has a natural, healthy incredulity. Sometimes mankind even has a loyalty to tradition and God.

But maybe throwing more money or bombs at them will help?
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6149 on: June 23, 2017, 08:09:49 PM »
IF I understood You correctly, the thought about Adam thinking he could escape God sort of suggests that the old testament is more about man's perception of God's revelations rather than about how God actually is?

What human language could possibly encapsulate "how God actually is"? 

Quote
Well... evolutionsts can be blamed for plenty. It is wrong to blame Darwin Though. Individuals are not as often mad as collectives and masses that are slaves under the herd-mind. For the herd, insanity and evil is almost a rule. We might as well blame all groups. Christians, but not Christ etc. In some cases Though it seems valid to blame both: Stalin and stalinists, Hitler and nazis... But Where do we draw the limit?

I think advocates of "science" are more stupid than they'd like to admit.
No human Language. I agree. So I think we are on agreement on this, no?

I'm not sure, but I hope you agree with me. 

Quote
I think too. Positivism is stupid and is What is the world view of many promoters of science. But to reject the achievements of science completely is also stupid

No one does that.
On what part are you unsure?

Oh BELIEVE me, there are superstitious People that completely rejects scientific discoveries
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6150 on: June 23, 2017, 08:11:19 PM »
It is wrong to blame Darwin Though.

In fact it's right and very easy to blame Darwin for many things. Put down his hagiographers and turn to his letters, and books such as Ascent of Man. He was a horrid little Victorian with all the usual fin de siècle rottenness. His sidekick (and only reason for making it into history) Mr. Huxley wrote essays and speeches that make Dr. Goebbels almost sympathetic. Further, he was hardly some originator of theory, as biological evolution was the standard in the French Academy in his day and was widely entertained throughout Europe, geological evolution was established worldwide, and socio-cultural evolution (what we would call anthropology) had been the basis of European political thought for at least a century. For gosh sake, the man's own grandfather was a leading evolutionist. Last but not least, he was wrong about everything. Thus the need for the vigrous neo-Darwinism less than a generation later.
Wrong about EVERYTHING ?
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6151 on: June 23, 2017, 08:24:02 PM »
It is wrong to blame Darwin Though.

In fact it's right and very easy to blame Darwin for many things. Put down his hagiographers and turn to his letters, and books such as Ascent of Man. He was a horrid little Victorian with all the usual fin de siècle rottenness. His sidekick (and only reason for making it into history) Mr. Huxley wrote essays and speeches that make Dr. Goebbels almost sympathetic. Further, he was hardly some originator of theory, as biological evolution was the standard in the French Academy in his day and was widely entertained throughout Europe, geological evolution was established worldwide, and socio-cultural evolution (what we would call anthropology) had been the basis of European political thought for at least a century. For gosh sake, the man's own grandfather was a leading evolutionist. Last but not least, he was wrong about everything. Thus the need for the vigrous neo-Darwinism less than a generation later.
Wrong about EVERYTHING ?

Sure. Tho considering even Lamarck is back to being hot stuff, Darwin may be right again before we know it. Evolutionary theory is completely reinvented every half-generation or so; anything is possible. And if you don't believe me, pick up a Cambridge Dictionary of Evolution from the '70s. Heck, "alleles" just become "mutations" since I was in college. What I'm looking forward to is the inevitable stagnation and recycling of trends, the way since 2000 the clothing institutions have gone into a kind of paralytic seizure and given us the '70s, '80s, '90s over and over and nothing original. Sic semper tyrannis.
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6152 on: June 23, 2017, 08:26:26 PM »
IF I understood You correctly, the thought about Adam thinking he could escape God sort of suggests that the old testament is more about man's perception of God's revelations rather than about how God actually is?

What human language could possibly encapsulate "how God actually is"? 

Quote
Well... evolutionsts can be blamed for plenty. It is wrong to blame Darwin Though. Individuals are not as often mad as collectives and masses that are slaves under the herd-mind. For the herd, insanity and evil is almost a rule. We might as well blame all groups. Christians, but not Christ etc. In some cases Though it seems valid to blame both: Stalin and stalinists, Hitler and nazis... But Where do we draw the limit?

I think advocates of "science" are more stupid than they'd like to admit.
No human Language. I agree. So I think we are on agreement on this, no?

I'm not sure, but I hope you agree with me. 

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I think too. Positivism is stupid and is What is the world view of many promoters of science. But to reject the achievements of science completely is also stupid

No one does that.
On what part are you unsure?

Oh BELIEVE me, there are superstitious People that completely rejects scientific discoveries

Who?  Where? 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6153 on: June 24, 2017, 07:25:04 AM »
IF I understood You correctly, the thought about Adam thinking he could escape God sort of suggests that the old testament is more about man's perception of God's revelations rather than about how God actually is?

What human language could possibly encapsulate "how God actually is"? 

Quote
Well... evolutionsts can be blamed for plenty. It is wrong to blame Darwin Though. Individuals are not as often mad as collectives and masses that are slaves under the herd-mind. For the herd, insanity and evil is almost a rule. We might as well blame all groups. Christians, but not Christ etc. In some cases Though it seems valid to blame both: Stalin and stalinists, Hitler and nazis... But Where do we draw the limit?

I think advocates of "science" are more stupid than they'd like to admit.
No human Language. I agree. So I think we are on agreement on this, no?

I'm not sure, but I hope you agree with me. 

Quote
I think too. Positivism is stupid and is What is the world view of many promoters of science. But to reject the achievements of science completely is also stupid

No one does that.
On what part are you unsure?

Oh BELIEVE me, there are superstitious People that completely rejects scientific discoveries

Who?  Where?
Everywhere in the world. Though they do not realize how much they depend on science in their lives.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6154 on: June 24, 2017, 07:26:28 AM »
It is wrong to blame Darwin Though.

In fact it's right and very easy to blame Darwin for many things. Put down his hagiographers and turn to his letters, and books such as Ascent of Man. He was a horrid little Victorian with all the usual fin de siècle rottenness. His sidekick (and only reason for making it into history) Mr. Huxley wrote essays and speeches that make Dr. Goebbels almost sympathetic. Further, he was hardly some originator of theory, as biological evolution was the standard in the French Academy in his day and was widely entertained throughout Europe, geological evolution was established worldwide, and socio-cultural evolution (what we would call anthropology) had been the basis of European political thought for at least a century. For gosh sake, the man's own grandfather was a leading evolutionist. Last but not least, he was wrong about everything. Thus the need for the vigrous neo-Darwinism less than a generation later.
Wrong about EVERYTHING ?

Sure. Tho considering even Lamarck is back to being hot stuff, Darwin may be right again before we know it. Evolutionary theory is completely reinvented every half-generation or so; anything is possible. And if you don't believe me, pick up a Cambridge Dictionary of Evolution from the '70s. Heck, "alleles" just become "mutations" since I was in college. What I'm looking forward to is the inevitable stagnation and recycling of trends, the way since 2000 the clothing institutions have gone into a kind of paralytic seizure and given us the '70s, '80s, '90s over and over and nothing original. Sic semper tyrannis.
Hm... Intersting. So by this, I guess you completely deny evolution in its entirety?
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6155 on: June 24, 2017, 11:29:59 AM »
Oh BELIEVE me, there are superstitious People that completely rejects scientific discoveries

Who?  Where?
Everywhere in the world. Though they do not realize how much they depend on science in their lives.

This is a non-answer.  You might as well pontificate about transgender kangaroos. 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6156 on: June 24, 2017, 11:51:51 AM »
Oh BELIEVE me, there are superstitious People that completely rejects scientific discoveries

Who?  Where?
Everywhere in the world. Though they do not realize how much they depend on science in their lives.

This is a non-answer.  You might as well pontificate about transgender kangaroos.
What is the non-answer? If someone says the Earth is 6000 years old and was created in 6 days for example. That is an example of being completely ignorant. And it is hard to take a person seriously who is a "devout Christian" But understands (or refuses to) neither science nor the religous texts that he pretends contradict science and prove its falseness. Of Course science doesnt prove Everything. One can still be stupid and realize that. Instead of attacking science, a young-earth-creationist(who is just as guilty of thé rise of atheism as an evolutionist) should say "I am not sure how old the Earth is, nor am I sure about the exact way in which God operates when creating. But I do Believe in his son".
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 11:55:20 AM by beebert »
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6157 on: June 24, 2017, 12:46:10 PM »
Oh BELIEVE me, there are superstitious People that completely rejects scientific discoveries

Who?  Where?
Everywhere in the world. Though they do not realize how much they depend on science in their lives.

This is a non-answer.  You might as well pontificate about transgender kangaroos.
What is the non-answer? If someone says the Earth is 6000 years old and was created in 6 days for example. That is an example of being completely ignorant. And it is hard to take a person seriously who is a "devout Christian" But understands (or refuses to) neither science nor the religous texts that he pretends contradict science and prove its falseness. Of Course science doesnt prove Everything. One can still be stupid and realize that.

One problem you have is that you think in extremes.  On the one hand, "of course science doesn't prove everything", which leaves room for questioning (and asking questions is part of science).  On the other hand, "if someone says the earth is 6000 years old and was created in 6 days...that is an example of being completely ignorant".  Many people smarter than either of us believed precisely this, they were not completely ignorant.  Nor does the scientific model of a four and a half billion year old earth within a fourteen billion year old universe require less faith than a six thousand year old earth.  So maybe extremes aren't helpful. 

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Instead of attacking science, a young-earth-creationist(who is just as guilty of thé rise of atheism as an evolutionist)

The mother of atheism is neither science nor religion, but selfishness.   

Quote
...should say "I am not sure how old the Earth is, nor am I sure about the exact way in which God operates when creating. But I do Believe in his son".

Why?  That Son, if the Gospels are to be believed, seemed to take for granted the creation accounts of Genesis by referring to them in his teaching.  He seems to take the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah literally.  He seems to take the story of the prophet Jonah literally.  It can be reasonably inferred that he took the OT largely for granted.  When he offered a "novel" interpretation of a passage, it was to show that it actually referred to him.  But he didn't tackle the historicity and scientific reliability of Genesis or whether God really rained down frogs on Egypt or rained down bread from heaven.  Why should a young earth creationist believe in someone who, according to your perspective, could be considered "completely ignorant"? 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6158 on: June 24, 2017, 01:20:19 PM »
Oh BELIEVE me, there are superstitious People that completely rejects scientific discoveries

Who?  Where?
Everywhere in the world. Though they do not realize how much they depend on science in their lives.

This is a non-answer.  You might as well pontificate about transgender kangaroos.
What is the non-answer? If someone says the Earth is 6000 years old and was created in 6 days for example. That is an example of being completely ignorant. And it is hard to take a person seriously who is a "devout Christian" But understands (or refuses to) neither science nor the religous texts that he pretends contradict science and prove its falseness. Of Course science doesnt prove Everything. One can still be stupid and realize that.

One problem you have is that you think in extremes.  On the one hand, "of course science doesn't prove everything", which leaves room for questioning (and asking questions is part of science).  On the other hand, "if someone says the earth is 6000 years old and was created in 6 days...that is an example of being completely ignorant".  Many people smarter than either of us believed precisely this, they were not completely ignorant.  Nor does the scientific model of a four and a half billion year old earth within a fourteen billion year old universe require less faith than a six thousand year old earth.  So maybe extremes aren't helpful. 

Quote
Instead of attacking science, a young-earth-creationist(who is just as guilty of thé rise of atheism as an evolutionist)

The mother of atheism is neither science nor religion, but selfishness.   

Quote
...should say "I am not sure how old the Earth is, nor am I sure about the exact way in which God operates when creating. But I do Believe in his son".

Why?  That Son, if the Gospels are to be believed, seemed to take for granted the creation accounts of Genesis by referring to them in his teaching.  He seems to take the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah literally.  He seems to take the story of the prophet Jonah literally.  It can be reasonably inferred that he took the OT largely for granted.  When he offered a "novel" interpretation of a passage, it was to show that it actually referred to him.  But he didn't tackle the historicity and scientific reliability of Genesis or whether God really rained down frogs on Egypt or rained down bread from heaven.  Why should a young earth creationist believe in someone who, according to your perspective, could be considered "completely ignorant"?
Poetic Language and myth reveals truths in themselves, and can Touch things deeper than what science can discover. This is what Young-Earth creationists dont realize, and as a result, they become deluded. To say Jesus believed the scripture literally and that he was a young-earth creationist is just your interpretation. I say he used those myths to prove a Point and speak about spiritual realities and depths that couldnt be expressed in Another way.
And I agree that the average atheist is What he is for selfish reasons. I would say the same about the average religious person. When I speak about the reason for atheism, I speak about the reason which made Dostoevsky write the Grand Inquisitor, Kierkegaard revolt against the Danish Lutheran Church and Nietzsche pronounce the death of God (which was in NO way a denial of God's existence, but an attack against "Christian" idolaters Most of all). Religous hypocrisy is a greater problem than atheism.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 01:22:42 PM by beebert »
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6159 on: June 24, 2017, 01:40:20 PM »
Evolution works the purposes of God and should be commemorated in the church. Particularly the way, as progressives constantly remind us, Evolution has chosen in its wisdom to end so many genetic lines in our day, thousands to homosexuality and transsexuality, millions to sheer confusion of what the purpose of the sexual act is. This merely a more exciting example of its continual scourging of mankind, the common ones of instinct for violence in creatures and the inherent horrific torment of its methods overall being so omnipotent they can be taken for granted. Yes, maim, madden, and mortify mankind, O Evolutionary Power! by your ways so complex and indirect they require the perpetual attention of myriads of researchers and apologists, true priests.

This is possibly clever, but it is too flowery for me to understand it. But I am guessing it relates to a debate in the early 1970s about screening for sickle cell anemia heterozygosity prior to marriage to prevent homozygous offspring. Doing so would increase sickle cell anemia in the gene pool (or something like that). I do not remember who won that debate. The far-left (communists) and black power movements thought it was a conspiracy aimed at eventually reducing the black population. In your case, if there is a large genetic contribution to homosexuality (which is not clear to me), leaving them to do their own thing rather than forcing them into heterosexual relationships, would certainly reduce homosexuality in the future.

Did I get this right?
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6160 on: June 24, 2017, 02:10:03 PM »
Poetic Language and myth reveals truths in themselves, and can Touch things deeper than what science can discover. This is what Young-Earth creationists dont realize, and as a result, they become deluded. To say Jesus believed the scripture literally and that he was a young-earth creationist is just your interpretation.

I didn't say Jesus was a young-earth creationist.  I think it's foolish to label Jesus as a member of a 20th century Protestant movement. 

But I am not sure that means he didn't take the words of the Scriptures as written for granted.  Where he interprets them in a "different" way, it's almost always to show how he fulfills them in himself.  Otherwise, I don't see him reinterpreting everything to mean something other than what it says.  Perhaps he didn't think it was important to get into such things as whether creation took six days or several billion years (and, if so, there's a lesson in that), but that's about as liberal an interpretation I think you can give to the witness of the NT.  It's more reasonable to conclude that he believed the Scriptures as written than to believe he was some divine Neil deGrasse Tyson who died for our sins without unlocking the secrets of the cosmos for us.   
 
Quote
I say he used those myths to prove a Point and speak about spiritual realities and depths that couldnt be expressed in Another way.

Sure.  All I'm saying is that you're mistaken to believe that there are only two choices: blind acceptance of scientific theories or complete ignorance born from religious superstition. 

Quote
And I agree that the average atheist is What he is for selfish reasons. I would say the same about the average religious person.

Oh? 

Quote
When I speak about the reason for atheism, I speak about the reason which made Dostoevsky write the Grand Inquisitor, Kierkegaard revolt against the Danish Lutheran Church and Nietzsche pronounce the death of God (which was in NO way a denial of God's existence, but an attack against "Christian" idolaters Most of all). Religous hypocrisy is a greater problem than atheism.

In the end, both will burn.
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline AlioshaKaramazov

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6161 on: June 24, 2017, 02:16:01 PM »

Poetic Language and myth reveals truths in themselves, and can Touch things deeper than what science can discover. This is what Young-Earth creationists dont realize, and as a result, they become deluded. To say Jesus believed the scripture literally and that he was a young-earth creationist is just your interpretation. I say he used those myths to prove a Point and speak about spiritual realities and depths that couldnt be expressed in Another way.
And I agree that the average atheist is What he is for selfish reasons. I would say the same about the average religious person. When I speak about the reason for atheism, I speak about the reason which made Dostoevsky write the Grand Inquisitor, Kierkegaard revolt against the Danish Lutheran Church and Nietzsche pronounce the death of God (which was in NO way a denial of God's existence, but an attack against "Christian" idolaters Most of all). Religous hypocrisy is a greater problem than atheism.

Arrogant people like you believing themselves to be more pure, enlightened and loving Christians than those idolatrous, hypocritical, literalist Grand Inquisitors could be blamed for the rise of extremism and fanaticism. See how two can play this game?

Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6162 on: June 24, 2017, 02:19:39 PM »

Poetic Language and myth reveals truths in themselves, and can Touch things deeper than what science can discover. This is what Young-Earth creationists dont realize, and as a result, they become deluded. To say Jesus believed the scripture literally and that he was a young-earth creationist is just your interpretation. I say he used those myths to prove a Point and speak about spiritual realities and depths that couldnt be expressed in Another way.
And I agree that the average atheist is What he is for selfish reasons. I would say the same about the average religious person. When I speak about the reason for atheism, I speak about the reason which made Dostoevsky write the Grand Inquisitor, Kierkegaard revolt against the Danish Lutheran Church and Nietzsche pronounce the death of God (which was in NO way a denial of God's existence, but an attack against "Christian" idolaters Most of all). Religous hypocrisy is a greater problem than atheism.

Arrogant people like you believing themselves to be more pure, enlightened and loving Christians than those idolatrous, hypocritical, literalist Grand Inquisitors could be blamed for the rise of extremism and fanaticism. See how two can play this game?
I identify myself a lot with Ivan. Even if I prefer the character whos name you use (Alyosha). More than that; I dont understand what you are talking about and I frankly dont care. The Grand Inquisitor isnt in any way a literalist. And he isnt a hypocrite. He is Most certainly the opposite of that. Didnt you understand the story about the Grand Inquisitor? But I do call fanaticism the most evil of things in all its forms, whether atheist or religous. And you have certainly missunderstood me if you label me a pharisee. I am not Close to being pure or Thinking myself pure.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 02:24:15 PM by beebert »
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Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6163 on: June 24, 2017, 02:31:04 PM »
Poetic Language and myth reveals truths in themselves, and can Touch things deeper than what science can discover. This is what Young-Earth creationists dont realize, and as a result, they become deluded. To say Jesus believed the scripture literally and that he was a young-earth creationist is just your interpretation.

I didn't say Jesus was a young-earth creationist.  I think it's foolish to label Jesus as a member of a 20th century Protestant movement. 

But I am not sure that means he didn't take the words of the Scriptures as written for granted.  Where he interprets them in a "different" way, it's almost always to show how he fulfills them in himself.  Otherwise, I don't see him reinterpreting everything to mean something other than what it says.  Perhaps he didn't think it was important to get into such things as whether creation took six days or several billion years (and, if so, there's a lesson in that), but that's about as liberal an interpretation I think you can give to the witness of the NT.  It's more reasonable to conclude that he believed the Scriptures as written than to believe he was some divine Neil deGrasse Tyson who died for our sins without unlocking the secrets of the cosmos for us.   
 
Quote
I say he used those myths to prove a Point and speak about spiritual realities and depths that couldnt be expressed in Another way.

Sure.  All I'm saying is that you're mistaken to believe that there are only two choices: blind acceptance of scientific theories or complete ignorance born from religious superstition. 

Quote
And I agree that the average atheist is What he is for selfish reasons. I would say the same about the average religious person.

Oh? 

Quote
When I speak about the reason for atheism, I speak about the reason which made Dostoevsky write the Grand Inquisitor, Kierkegaard revolt against the Danish Lutheran Church and Nietzsche pronounce the death of God (which was in NO way a denial of God's existence, but an attack against "Christian" idolaters Most of all). Religous hypocrisy is a greater problem than atheism.

In the end, both will burn.
For me personally, more questions arised because of Christ. That is not something I blame him for. He has explained the human condition. I dont Believe there are Only two options. But those two mentioned options I oppose and reject. I neither blindly accept science (that would be stupid and shallow) not do I accept religous superstition and religous attacks against science... As if young-earth creationism needs to be a dogma believed in in order to be saved. That is what I oppose. I am not sure atheists and idolaters Will burn eternally as is traditionally taught. But I guess I Will have to wait and see until when I go to hell myself
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 02:32:12 PM by beebert »
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Offline AlioshaKaramazov

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6164 on: June 24, 2017, 02:38:23 PM »
I identify myself a lot with Ivan. Even if I prefer the character whos name you use (Alyosha). More than that; I dont understand what you are talking about and I frankly dont care. The Grand Inquisitor isnt by the way a literalist. And he isnt a hypocrite. He is Most certainly the opposite of that. Didnt you understand the story about the Grand Inquisitor? But I do call fanaticism the most evil of things in all its forms, whether atheist or religous.

Judging from your posting history, you seem very devoted to believe yourself more clever than the Fathers and than those stupid literalists, more loving than those evil Hell believers and that wicked St. Augustine, etc. These two groups are the only ones to blame for the rise of atheism. The Church has been wrong for 2000 years, now we truly begin to understand what it means to be a True™ Christian thanks to St. Friedrich Nietzsche and St. Ivan Karamazov.