OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 30, 2014, 10:39:18 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Poll
Question: Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?
Yes - 53 (15.7%)
No - 129 (38.2%)
both metaphorically and literally - 156 (46.2%)
Total Voters: 338

Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy  (Read 324090 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Byzantine2008
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 280



« Reply #675 on: July 17, 2008, 10:24:48 PM »

Sorry to go off conversation but I was very surprised at the opinion poll.

I thought more Orthodox Christians would have taken the Genesis account more literally.

My Spiritual Father's brother is a monk on Mount Athos and he says that the consensus is that it happened as how it was written.

Maybe our reason and logic has clouded our faith in the Bible?

Just a thought.  Wink

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Lord Jesus Christ Son of God have mercy on me a sinner.

Logged

Let your will be done O Lord Jesus Christ through the intercession of you All Pure Mother and all the saints!
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,937


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #676 on: July 17, 2008, 10:35:31 PM »

My Spiritual Father's brother is a monk on Mount Athos and he says that the consensus is that it happened as how it was written.
The consensus of whom?
Logged
Byzantine2008
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 280



« Reply #677 on: July 17, 2008, 10:47:22 PM »

The consensus of whom?

The general consensus of the monastry he is in, which I think is Vatopaidi. Smiley
Logged

Let your will be done O Lord Jesus Christ through the intercession of you All Pure Mother and all the saints!
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #678 on: July 17, 2008, 11:49:06 PM »

Sorry to go off conversation but I was very surprised at the opinion poll.

I thought more Orthodox Christians would have taken the Genesis account more literally.
Don't let this trouble you dear brother.  There are billions of Orthodox Christians worldwide.  There are maybe 200 people who belong to this forum that actively participate.  Of them, I would imagine only 70 to 100 or so have taken the poll.  Now, you can begin to get a clearer picture of the results.  Remember also, you can (and will) find every opinion on the internet.  Even amongst our brothers and sisters.  But they are not our adversaries, Satan is.  Our responsibility is, rather than become disheartened or upset with them, to pray for all Orthodox Christians.  Smiley 
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Byzantine2008
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 280



« Reply #679 on: July 18, 2008, 12:02:39 AM »

Thank You Brother,

Very comforting words from what seems to be a very wise person.

God Bless
Logged

Let your will be done O Lord Jesus Christ through the intercession of you All Pure Mother and all the saints!
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #680 on: July 18, 2008, 12:10:24 AM »

Don't let this trouble you dear brother.  There are billions of Orthodox Christians worldwide.  There are maybe 200 people who belong to this forum that actively participate.  Of them, I would imagine only 70 to 100 or so have taken the poll.  Now, you can begin to get a clearer picture of the results.  Remember also, you can (and will) find every opinion on the internet.  Even amongst our brothers and sisters.  But they are not our adversaries, Satan is.  Our responsibility is, rather than become disheartened or upset with them, to pray for all Orthodox Christians.  Smiley 

Billions?

Keep in mind that the Orthodox Church has not dogmatized a stance on this issue in an Ecumenical Council....an opinion either way (or none at all) is not neccessary for salvation...
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #681 on: July 18, 2008, 12:16:33 AM »

Thank You Brother,

Very comforting words from what seems to be a very wise person.

God Bless
Thanks for the kind words, but even a broken clock is right twice a day. Smiley
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #682 on: July 18, 2008, 12:20:38 AM »

Billions?

Keep in mind that the Orthodox Church has not dogmatized a stance on this issue in an Ecumenical Council....an opinion either way (or none at all) is not neccessary for salvation...
I agree with you, dear brother.  I was merely speaking of us in terms of numbers of membership in the Orthodox Church (for lack of a better word) and not numbers of people who hold a particular view. 
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Byzantine2008
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 280



« Reply #683 on: July 18, 2008, 12:32:05 AM »

Billions?

Keep in mind that the Orthodox Church has not dogmatized a stance on this issue in an Ecumenical Council....an opinion either way (or none at all) is not neccessary for salvation...

Thanks for the point but how the world begun and creation in general is a fascinating topic.

My curious mind wanders and needs answers unfortunately.

To add there are so many varying opinions in our own Faith where I have to use my own mind to pick and choose the best answer.

Need Help with this one.

God Bless

God Bless
Logged

Let your will be done O Lord Jesus Christ through the intercession of you All Pure Mother and all the saints!
Tzimis
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 2,374



« Reply #684 on: July 18, 2008, 09:04:06 AM »

Thanks for the point but how the world begun and creation in general is a fascinating topic.

My curious mind wanders and needs answers unfortunately.

To add there are so many varying opinions in our own Faith where I have to use my own mind to pick and choose the best answer.

Need Help with this one.

God Bless

God Bless

I have the same curiosities. It is nothing more than pride that fuels our ego to know everything. Chances are that we will never know. The evolution theory along with the big bang are not a proven fact. There is a big problem call the horizon problem with the big bang. In fact It destroys it and the evolution theory is even worse.

  The current theory in fashion is that somehow, in the primordial soup, a bolt of lightning struck a bunch of oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen, and a few sulfur atoms... and they magically combined randomly to form amino acids.

This has actually been attempted in the laboratory numerous times. Despite setting up conditions as favorably as possible, the best modern science has been able to do is to make a carbonaceous sludge containing perhaps a half dozen different amino acids in small numbers - with an equal mixture of levo and dextro molecules. It was hailed in the scientific literature and the popular press as a great triumph!

However, even if we accept on faith that somehow 20 correctly oriented (100% levo isomers) amino acids could have been spontaneously generated by the legendary bolt of lightning, with no intelligent direction at all - they would have had to be made at the exact same time and in the exact same place.

Amino acids denature and degrade fairly rapidly. The mean half life for amino acids in topsoil is 1.7 hours, and in subsoil is 12.2 hours:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...a45634a8145785

So, even if you magically create all 20 amino acids at once, in the same puddle of pond scum struck by that fortuitous bolt of lightning, and they all just happen to be 100% levo isomers, you've got less than 24 hours for that group of amino acids to somehow find a way to randomly link themselves up into no fewer than 239 protein chains (the smallest theoretical number of proteins required to form an autonomous living thing), with an average size of 410 amino acids per protein, and all the amino acids must be linked in just the perfect sequence, then find a way to synthesize DNA and mRNA in order to replicate themselves.

And all this furious activity has to happen before the amino acids begin to degrade in 12 hours tops.

3. Even if we grant the evolutionists trillions of lightning events involving trillions of primoridial soup ponds over billions of years of the earth's existence... fine - knock of 20, 30, 1,000, heck even 10,000 powers of 10 from the odds I presented earlier. And the probability is still 1 in 10^19,345 that 239 proteins in the smallest theoretical primitive single-celled living thing were all randomly created as 100% levo isomers!

And we still haven't even mentioned the fact that they not only have to be 100% levo isomers - each and every one of those 239 proteins has to have hundreds, if not thousands of amino acids correctly sequenced!

And, remember, all this must happen in 12 hours before our amino acids begin to degrade and are useless.

So, I admire the evolutionists. Their faith is every bit as powerful as the believers!  Wink
Logged

Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,393



« Reply #685 on: July 18, 2008, 10:33:48 AM »

I agree with you, dear brother.  I was merely speaking of us in terms of numbers of membership in the Orthodox Church (for lack of a better word) and not numbers of people who hold a particular view. 

Billions?  Meaning no disrespect, but when giving numbers, what would be your souce for "billiions" please in the number of persons who are EO today?

The count at Adherents.com is 240,000,000 "Orthodox/Eastern Christian".  The RC is larger with 1,050,000,000. 
http://www.adherents.com/adh_branches.html  about a quarter of the way down the page. 

Accuracy and truth are important when giving statistics.

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #686 on: July 18, 2008, 12:31:10 PM »

Billions?  Meaning no disrespect, but when giving numbers, what would be your souce for "billiions" please in the number of persons who are EO today?

The Church Millitant (those on earth) and The Church Triumphant (the Cloud of Witnesses in Heaven).  An Anglican, being outside the pale of Holy Orthodoxy,  can be forgiven for being ignorant of this important aspect. Smiley
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #687 on: July 18, 2008, 12:59:57 PM »

The Church Millitant (those on earth) and The Church Triumphant (the Cloud of Witnesses in Heaven).  An Anglican, being outside the pale of Holy Orthodoxy,  can be forgiven for being ignorant of this important aspect. Smiley
Before the Industrial Revolution (say AD 1700 for argument's sake), the population of the Earth never exceeded 600 million. In fact, in 1950 the population of the Earth was only 2.4 billion.

Let us assume that there were four generations per century and that average lifespan was 50 years. If the whole world were Orthodox from the time of Christ until now, there would be about 15 billion Orthodox Christians. Now, if the average ratio of Orthodox Christians to those of other faiths in the last two millennia is any more than 2:13, we can say the possibility exists that there are "billions" in the Church. If not, such a claim would be proven false.

But there are definitely millions in the Church.

Source: U.S. Census Bureau: http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldhis.html
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 01:04:25 PM by ytterbiumanalyst » Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #688 on: July 18, 2008, 02:02:55 PM »


Let us assume that...
Still, I hope most understood the point I was trying to make; that being, despite the posturing of the academic elitist's of the world, Orthodoxy does not now, nor will it ever, place any hopes that one day the Scriptures will be scientifically proven correct.  Those who try try in vain, for they have completely missed the point.  The academic elitists and skeptics who say "This or that couldn't have happened because..." illustrate that they don't understand the meaning of Holy Orthodoxy.  "A man lacking understanding has no need of wisdom, for he is rather led by lack of discernment." Proverbs 18:2
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,393



« Reply #689 on: July 18, 2008, 02:27:48 PM »

The Church Millitant (those on earth) and The Church Triumphant (the Cloud of Witnesses in Heaven).  An Anglican, being outside the pale of Holy Orthodoxy,  can be forgiven for being ignorant of this important aspect. Smiley

I can assure you that I am not "ignorant" of the Church Triumphant and the Church Militant.  Also these concepts are not solely known in EO, but are used in the RC and others including the Anglicans.  Your reply comes across as rather condescending as well as assuming that you know what I know.  Undecided

If I may be a pedant, though you wrote:

"There are billions of Orthodox Christians worldwide."  One might reasonably understand this to refer to those human beings alive at the moment on the planet Earth which is not the case.   

Accurate data is not academic posturing but is important in supporting truth.

May I ask if, in your last post, you think that anyone who thinks that God used evolution to bring about Creation is an "academic elitist"? 


With respect,

Ebor 



« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 02:31:54 PM by Ebor » Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,937


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #690 on: July 18, 2008, 03:33:50 PM »

I have the same curiosities. It is nothing more than pride that fuels our ego to know everything. Chances are that we will never know. The evolution theory along with the big bang are not a proven fact. There is a big problem call the horizon problem with the big bang. In fact It destroys it
Horizon problem?  Could you please explain what this is?  I've never heard of it before.

Quote
and the evolution theory is even worse.

  The current theory in fashion is that somehow, in the primordial soup, a bolt of lightning struck a bunch of oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen, and a few sulfur atoms... and they magically combined randomly to form amino acids.
Actually, this isn't evolutionary theory, nor can it even be called a theory at all.  To my knowledge, evolutionary theory attempts to explain how already existing life forms change over long periods of time; it does not and cannot address how life itself began.

Quote
So, I admire the evolutionists. Their faith is every bit as powerful as the believers!  Wink
As also do I admire your stubborn insistence, in the face of such explanations to the contrary, that science is about proving facts, which it is not. Wink  Again, science is about attempting to formulate the most viable explanations of what we observe in nature--it is not about proving these explanations to be factual.  How can it be, since falsifiability is one of the key aspects of the scientific method?  Can something be factual and falsifiable at the same time?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 06:53:17 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #691 on: July 18, 2008, 03:43:29 PM »

Still, I hope most understood the point I was trying to make; that being, despite the posturing of the academic elitist's of the world, Orthodoxy does not now, nor will it ever, place any hopes that one day the Scriptures will be scientifically proven correct.  Those who try try in vain, for they have completely missed the point.  The academic elitists and skeptics who say "This or that couldn't have happened because..." illustrate that they don't understand the meaning of Holy Orthodoxy.  "A man lacking understanding has no need of wisdom, for he is rather led by lack of discernment." Proverbs 18:2
At the same time, there are religious people just as skeptical of science when they say, "This or that couldn't have happened because of this Scripture or this Father's writings." I maintain that science and religion are not mutually exclusive but can both be applied in their own realms to get a clearer picture of our world and our existence therein.

And I believe that millions of Orthodox Christians worldwide would concur. Wink
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #692 on: July 18, 2008, 03:46:00 PM »

  Your reply comes across as rather condescending...
Then I sincerely apologize for that.  I certainly didn't mean 'ignorant' in a malicious sense.
  
May I ask if, in your last post, you think that anyone who thinks that God used evolution to bring about Creation is an "academic elitist"?
Certainly not everyone, but many, yes.  And the reason I say this is because if one offers this theory as one out of many, I don't see anything wrong with that.  But it's when we begin asserting our personal belief as definate probability that we begin to pretend we know something we really don't.  This is the hallmark of an elitist; to assume they know or understand something you and I can't possibly begin to understand.  There are many in the world, and even some on this forum, who would have us believe that evolution is the only explanation and that those who take the scriptures literally are simply uneducated simpletons.  I would be foolish, and even add to the confusion, if I were to say either one is wholly correct or incorrect.  Either way, though, for a Christian one of the only 'hows' that really matters is theosis.
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #693 on: July 18, 2008, 04:07:33 PM »

And I believe that millions of Orthodox Christians worldwide would concur. Wink
You're pushing your luck little man. Cheesy
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #694 on: July 18, 2008, 04:08:17 PM »

^ When have you known me not to?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 04:08:26 PM by ytterbiumanalyst » Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,393



« Reply #695 on: July 18, 2008, 04:24:04 PM »

It is nothing more than pride that fuels our ego to know everything.

"nothing more"??  What of curiousity?  What of a sense of wonder when something new is learnt or discovered?  Since God created the Universe with so many amazing and wonderful things why would He not also have created humans to want to learn about it? 

I'm afraid that I must disagree with your generalization.

With respect,

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,156


WWW
« Reply #696 on: July 18, 2008, 04:35:56 PM »

^ Curiosity led to Eve eating the forbidden fruit.   Smiley  I guess we're all the consequences of what she learned.   Wink

The followers of Nietschze exclaimed "God Is Dead" out of sheer pride and sheer audacity.

I have to admit that I liked Demetrios G.'s amino acids explanation - a job well done <applause icon> !!
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,156


WWW
« Reply #697 on: July 18, 2008, 04:49:31 PM »

Horizon problem?  Could you please explain what this is?  I've never heard of it before.

A phenomenon related to the speed of light and how far light traveled at the moment of the Big Bang.  Assume 1 second after the Big Bang where light would travel 300,000 km and no observer beyond 300,000 km could "look into the past" since the light has yet to reach the observer.

The horizon problem has been addressed by inflation where the Universe expanded rapidly during the first 10-34 seconds of the Universe.  The following website provides for a better explanation.

Horizon Problem Explanation
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,937


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #698 on: July 18, 2008, 05:28:54 PM »

The Horizon Problem

  • Cosmic background radiation indicates extremely homogeneous temperature throughout the universe
  • Two points at equal distance of 10 billion light years from earth yet in opposite directions are 20 billion light years away from each other.
  • If the universe is only 12-14 billion years old, then any signal emitted from one of the two points would have to have traveled at faster than the speed of light to reach the other point, a violation of the basis of Einstein's special theory of relativity.
  • As the universe expands, quantum theory's uncertainty principle leads us to believe that some regions of the universe will cool at rates faster than other regions; yet the incredible homogeneity of the universe's overall temperature indicates that the universe as a whole cooled at the same rate.
  • How can this happen if heat cannot transfer from one side of the universe to the other without exceeding the speed of light?

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/Astro/cosmo.html#c5
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,937


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #699 on: July 18, 2008, 06:33:14 PM »

Information on Cosmic Inflation theory and how this solves the Horizon Problem, as well as the problem of the universe's flatness:

http://universe-review.ca/R02-13-inflation.htm
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 02:13:36 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,393



« Reply #700 on: July 18, 2008, 06:35:30 PM »

^ Curiosity led to Eve eating the forbidden fruit.   Smiley  I guess we're all the consequences of what she learned.   Wink

A sweeping generalization drawn from one instance does not logically apply to all cases.  Why would God have created humanity with curiosity?  Or would you blame curiosity and interest in learning somehow to the Fall? (which hadn't happened before the case you cite).   Undecided

This could possibly also be an "apples and oranges" fallacy since I do not see how scientific research is comparable to this example.

Quote
The followers of Nietschze exclaimed "God Is Dead" out of sheer pride and sheer audacity.

Oh?  May I ask on what you base this assertion please?  And which followers are you thinking of?

Quote
I have to admit that I liked Demetrios G.'s amino acids explanation - a job well done <applause icon> !!

But did he explain it correctly?  I can't check his link to see if it is true, supports his claim or is from someone who is reputable to make statements on biology as I get a  "Sorry, your request could not be processed because the qualifier of the URL (/science...a45634a8145785) is incorrect."  message. 

Do you like his "explanation" because it would seem to support your already held opinion?  Or do you have some background and knowledge of biology and amino acids? 

We have a very qualified biologist as a member of the forum.  I would be interested to read what he would have to say on this when he has the time since he is in the Ukraine at the moment.

Ebor

Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #701 on: July 18, 2008, 07:39:11 PM »

A sweeping generalization drawn from one instance does not logically apply to all cases.
How is the story of the fall a sweeping generalization please?

 
Oh?  May I ask on what you base this assertion please?  And which followers are you thinking of?
This may be a sweeping generalization.  But I would think pride and audacity would hold in many cases.
 
I would be interested to read what he would have to say on this when he has the time since he is in the Ukraine at the moment.
Why?   

« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 07:39:35 PM by GabrieltheCelt » Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,937


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #702 on: July 18, 2008, 09:36:15 PM »

How is the story of the fall a sweeping generalization please?
I don't read Ebor as calling the fall a sweeping generalization; rather, she seems to be calling the fall the one instance on which SolEX01 has based his sweeping generalization.

Quote
Why?
Who better to consult for a scientific perspective on how life itself came to be than a biologist (as opposed to someone who has repeatedly demonstrated that he doesn't even know what science really is)?
Logged
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,393



« Reply #703 on: July 18, 2008, 10:14:21 PM »

the fall the one instance on which SolEX01 has based his sweeping generalization.

Precisely so.  Smiley

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,393



« Reply #704 on: July 18, 2008, 10:25:42 PM »

This may be a sweeping generalization.  But I would think pride and audacity would hold in many cases.

Some names and examples of these "many cases" would be helpful in supporting this claim.  Who might be the "followers" with "pride and audacity"? 

Quote
  Why?   

Because Heorhji is a person who is trained and educated in Biology.  He has credentials and has true knowledge of the subject.  He has an understanding of biological processes and functions.  We know from a post in the last few months that his work has been accepted for publication in a reputable journal in the field.  He would be a reliable source of information about biology.  That's why.

There are reliable sources that one may go to for information, and there are some who think they know or act as experts who are, in fact, not any such thing or they may have only partial knowledge or understanding or base things partly on truth and partly on a mistake.  It is important to be able to discern this and just because someone is saying things that one agrees with or likes does not make them a reliable support or source for real information and truth.

Ebor


Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,156


WWW
« Reply #705 on: July 18, 2008, 10:50:02 PM »

A sweeping generalization drawn from one instance does not logically apply to all cases.  Why would God have created humanity with curiosity?
 

To be tempted by Satan - a created entity who defied God.  We all know the story of Genesis.  Eve was curious; She wanted to be like God and she ate the forbidden fruit.

Today, curious people in Montgomery County, MD play with human DNA and earn a comfortable living - enough to rank 5th in the USA for median income.

Or would you blame curiosity and interest in learning somehow to the Fall? (which hadn't happened before the case you cite).   Undecided

What did Adam & Eve learn from Satan?  That they were naked and ashamed.  I'm sticking strictly to Creationism - I'm not even thinking about Evolution.   Smiley

This could possibly also be an "apples and oranges" fallacy since I do not see how scientific research is comparable to this example.

You call it fallacy; I call it faith.  Because of Eve's curiosity, all of us are curious.  Some of us who are Orthodox Christians are still curious about God, Christ and the Trinity while others try to use science to answer all questions.

Now we shift to Nietschze....

Oh?  May I ask on what you base this assertion please?  And which followers are you thinking of?

Without God, there's freedom.  I'm basically regurgitating my understanding of Nietschze.  If I've fallen short, I apologize.

Do you like his "explanation" because it would seem to support your already held opinion?  Or do you have some background and knowledge of biology and amino acids?

I hold an Engineering degree.  While that doesn't make me a biologist, I can understand the terminology and conclude that something above and beyond normal biochemistry was required to take the building blocks and turn them into what we call, Life. 
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 10:52:54 PM by SolEX01 » Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,156


WWW
« Reply #706 on: July 18, 2008, 11:07:53 PM »

Some names and examples of these "many cases" would be helpful in supporting this claim.  Who might be the "followers" with "pride and audacity"?

There are people who have experienced vast freedom and experienced pride and audacity.  For starters, any 20th and 21st Century Dictator, Modern Hollywood actors and actresses, anything else would take the topic further off tangent.   Smiley
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 11:08:36 PM by SolEX01 » Logged
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #707 on: July 19, 2008, 01:10:39 AM »

I have the same curiosities. It is nothing more than pride that fuels our ego to know everything. Chances are that we will never know. The evolution theory along with the big bang are not a proven fact. There is a big problem call the horizon problem with the big bang. In fact It destroys it and the evolution theory is even worse.

  The current theory in fashion is that somehow, in the primordial soup, a bolt of lightning struck a bunch of oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen, and a few sulfur atoms... and they magically combined randomly to form amino acids.

This has actually been attempted in the laboratory numerous times. Despite setting up conditions as favorably as possible, the best modern science has been able to do is to make a carbonaceous sludge containing perhaps a half dozen different amino acids in small numbers - with an equal mixture of levo and dextro molecules. It was hailed in the scientific literature and the popular press as a great triumph!

However, even if we accept on faith that somehow 20 correctly oriented (100% levo isomers) amino acids could have been spontaneously generated by the legendary bolt of lightning, with no intelligent direction at all - they would have had to be made at the exact same time and in the exact same place.

Amino acids denature and degrade fairly rapidly. The mean half life for amino acids in topsoil is 1.7 hours, and in subsoil is 12.2 hours:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...a45634a8145785

So, even if you magically create all 20 amino acids at once, in the same puddle of pond scum struck by that fortuitous bolt of lightning, and they all just happen to be 100% levo isomers, you've got less than 24 hours for that group of amino acids to somehow find a way to randomly link themselves up into no fewer than 239 protein chains (the smallest theoretical number of proteins required to form an autonomous living thing), with an average size of 410 amino acids per protein, and all the amino acids must be linked in just the perfect sequence, then find a way to synthesize DNA and mRNA in order to replicate themselves.

And all this furious activity has to happen before the amino acids begin to degrade in 12 hours tops.

3. Even if we grant the evolutionists trillions of lightning events involving trillions of primoridial soup ponds over billions of years of the earth's existence... fine - knock of 20, 30, 1,000, heck even 10,000 powers of 10 from the odds I presented earlier. And the probability is still 1 in 10^19,345 that 239 proteins in the smallest theoretical primitive single-celled living thing were all randomly created as 100% levo isomers!

And we still haven't even mentioned the fact that they not only have to be 100% levo isomers - each and every one of those 239 proteins has to have hundreds, if not thousands of amino acids correctly sequenced!

And, remember, all this must happen in 12 hours before our amino acids begin to degrade and are useless.

So, I admire the evolutionists. Their faith is every bit as powerful as the believers!  Wink

The problem with your position is that it claims that belief in evolution and belief in God are mutually exclusive. They are not.

If God wants to use lightning on amino acids to create the universe, and explain it to the Israelites as "dust," He has the power to do that.
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,937


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #708 on: July 19, 2008, 01:50:13 AM »

To be tempted by Satan - a created entity who defied God.  We all know the story of Genesis.  Eve was curious; She wanted to be like God and she ate the forbidden fruit.

Today, curious people in Montgomery County, MD play with human DNA and earn a comfortable living - enough to rank 5th in the USA for median income.

What did Adam & Eve learn from Satan?  That they were naked and ashamed.  I'm sticking strictly to Creationism - I'm not even thinking about Evolution.   Smiley

You call it fallacy; I call it faith.  Because of Eve's curiosity, all of us are curious.  Some of us who are Orthodox Christians are still curious about God, Christ and the Trinity while others try to use science to answer all questions.
Yes, the fact that Eve was curious BEFORE she fell is evidence that curiosity is part of God's creative work, part of what He called very good.  What you're vilifying is not curiosity per se, but curiosity pointed in the wrong direction.
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,156


WWW
« Reply #709 on: July 19, 2008, 01:59:45 AM »

Yes, the fact that Eve was curious BEFORE she fell is evidence that curiosity is part of God's creative work, part of what He called very good.  What you're vilifying is not curiosity per se, but curiosity pointed in the wrong direction.

The term, vilifying, is too strong a word.   Shocked  I was merely describing the consequences of Eve's curiosity.  We all make the same errors in curiosity every single day.  No wonder they say curiosity killed the cat, lol to all cat fans out there....   Grin

God gave Man curiosity to find out more about God since Man was initially exposed to God's eternal presence in Paradise.  Once Satan co-opted Eve's curiosity of what God was like, that was when Man, having been expelled from Paradise, had to resort to curiosity for His mere survival.
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,156


WWW
« Reply #710 on: July 19, 2008, 02:01:57 AM »

If God wants to use lightning on amino acids to create the universe, and explain it to the Israelites as "dust," He has the power to do that.

I'm convinced.   Wink
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,937


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #711 on: July 19, 2008, 02:16:55 AM »

The term, vilifying, is too strong a word.   Shocked  I was merely describing the consequences of Eve's curiosity.  We all make the same errors in curiosity every single day.  No wonder they say curiosity killed the cat, lol to all cat fans out there....   Grin

God gave Man curiosity to find out more about God since Man was initially exposed to God's eternal presence in Paradise.  Once Satan co-opted Eve's curiosity of what God was like, that was when Man, having been expelled from Paradise, had to resort to curiosity for His mere survival.
No need to backtrack into double speak here to save face. Wink
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,156


WWW
« Reply #712 on: July 19, 2008, 02:19:04 AM »

No need to backtrack into double speak here to save face. Wink

Backtrack?  I think the succession of posts speak for themselves.   Wink  Anyway, the comment on doublespeak put a smile on my face.   Grin
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,937


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #713 on: July 19, 2008, 02:34:35 AM »

Information on Cosmic Inflation theory and how this solves the Horizon Problem, as well as the problem of the universe's flatness:

http://universe-review.ca/R02-13-inflation.htm
Another excellent source from the man who conceived the inflationary paradigm:

http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/Guth/Guth_contents.html

He uses a lot of high level science-speak that may fly over most heads here, but I think he communicates the basic gist well.


So, how does inflationary theory solve the horizon problem?  Inflationary theory allows the universe to have been much smaller than the classic Big Bang theory postulates, allowing the universe to achieve thermal isotropy (homogeneity) very easily before its phase of most rapid expansion made further heat transfer from one side to the other impossible.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 02:45:09 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,937


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #714 on: July 19, 2008, 03:20:01 AM »

^ And for those who want more information and don't mind reading material written for a high level college physics course:

http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/Albrecht/Alb_contents.html
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #715 on: July 19, 2008, 11:02:33 AM »

I seriously hope that isn't over the head of anyone here, I would genuinely be worried if it was, that has to be the most simplified version of astrophysics I've come across in a long time. Wink
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #716 on: July 19, 2008, 11:28:48 AM »

I seriously hope that isn't over the head of anyone here, I would genuinely be worried if it was, that has to be the most simplified version of astrophysics I've come across in a long time. Wink

Seems more cosmology to me.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #717 on: July 19, 2008, 02:51:00 PM »


Who better to consult for a scientific perspective on how life itself came to be than a biologist
Biologists can explain the origins of life?

(as opposed to someone who has repeatedly demonstrated that he doesn't even know what science really is)?
The second half of this reply (marked in parenthesis) seems like a borderline ad hominem as it doesn't address the topic but rather the character of the poster.  Perhaps he has a better understanding than we suppose but isn't able to articulate it as well as others?  Either way this is what I was referring to as 'academic/intellectual elitism' and I would've taken this reply as uncharitable.  Undecided
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,988


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #718 on: July 19, 2008, 03:06:30 PM »

Because Heorhji is a person who is trained and educated in Biology.  He has credentials and has true knowledge of the subject.  He has an understanding of biological processes and functions.  We know from a post in the last few months that his work has been accepted for publication in a reputable journal in the field.  He would be a reliable source of information about biology.  That's why.

No no, you misunderstood my point. I have no doubt in Heorhij's ability to explain certain biological facts, but science cannot explain everything and this is one of the topics where there is no definitive answer (at least as far as humans can answer).  My point was/is is that this whole thread is pointless really, don't you think?  After pages and pages of dialoguing, diatribing, and basically just plain 'ol fussin' and fightin', what, if anything, has been accomplished?  We have two camps who feel very strongly about their positions, with perhaps a third 'in the middle' camp.  But let's look at the big picture for a moment.  Does anyone really and truly believe for a moment that the debate will be settled here?  Is the answer even somehow remotely needed for our salvation?  Would a definitive answer prove or disprove that there is a God and that He loves you and I?  This is what I meant by asking 'why'. 
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,937


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #719 on: July 19, 2008, 03:39:40 PM »

Biologists can explain the origins of life?
Maybe not, as I implied earlier, but a biologist can at least offer a scientific viewpoint on the origins of life, even if it is nothing more than speculation.

Quote
The second half of this reply (marked in parenthesis) seems like a borderline ad hominem as it doesn't address the topic but rather the character of the poster.
No, I didn't word my parenthetical clause to address the character of said poster.  What I addressed was his knowledge, or lack thereof, of the subject matter on which he was pontificating.

Quote
Perhaps he has a better understanding than we suppose but isn't able to articulate it as well as others?  Either way this is what I was referring to as 'academic/intellectual elitism' and I would've taken this reply as uncharitable.  Undecided
Nah.  One doesn't need an understanding of science to argue for or against evolution on other grounds such as philosophy or theology.  However, if one is going to use scientific concepts to pontificate on the science of a particular point of view, then that person had better know what he's talking about.  If such person's posts show a gross misunderstanding of the nature of scientific method (i.e., to say that we should reject a scientific theory because it has not been proven fact), then, yes, his authority to pontificate on scientific matters should be called into question.  There's nothing ad hominem about this.
Logged
Tags: science Theory of Evolution evolution creationism cheval mort 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.161 seconds with 74 queries.