Poll

Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?

Yes
66 (16.1%)
No
157 (38.4%)
both metaphorically and literally
186 (45.5%)

Total Members Voted: 409

Author Topic: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy  (Read 1300926 times)

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Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6165 on: June 24, 2017, 02:45:01 PM »
I identify myself a lot with Ivan. Even if I prefer the character whos name you use (Alyosha). More than that; I dont understand what you are talking about and I frankly dont care. The Grand Inquisitor isnt by the way a literalist. And he isnt a hypocrite. He is Most certainly the opposite of that. Didnt you understand the story about the Grand Inquisitor? But I do call fanaticism the most evil of things in all its forms, whether atheist or religous.

Judging from your posting history, you seem very devoted to believe yourself more clever than the Fathers and than those stupid literalists, more loving than those evil Hell believers and that wicked St. Augustine, etc. These two groups are the only ones to blame for the rise of atheism. The Church has been wrong for 2000 years, now we truly begin to understand what it means to be a True™ Christian thanks to St. Friedrich Nietzsche and St. Ivan Karamazov.
I guess it is hard to understand me. But yes. There have been many Christians in history whose morality digusts me more than anything else : Tertullian, Aquinas and Calvin are Three. Augustine I both admire and oppose. But there are other Christians whose viewst I admire more than any other views: Gregory of Nyssa, Isaac Syrian, Dostoevsky and Starets Silouan to name a few. Nietszche was very important for western christisnity I believe and yes: I do appreciate him. I have never called myself more loving than anyone. I have never called Ivan a saint or a proclaimer of theTruth with a big T. Though I do Believe he had a true Point and challenged an attitude and a belief that deserves to be  questioned. Just as Nietzsche. I have never Said that the Church has been wrong for 2000 years untill the two Guys mentioned. Your post is full of false "accusations" it seems to me
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 02:48:25 PM by beebert »
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Offline Olivia

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6166 on: June 24, 2017, 02:56:36 PM »
Never mind, my bad. Sorry.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 02:58:39 PM by Olivia »
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6167 on: June 24, 2017, 03:23:25 PM »
I think advocates of "science" are more stupid than they'd like to admit.

I am not sure what this means or if stupid is the correct word. For example, I can read a paper like this:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-02520-7

which tested Scott Pruitt's (head of the EPA) claim that “over the past two decades satellite data indicates there has been a leveling off of warming”with the result that their data does not support Pruitt's contention. I am unable to evaluate the statistical aspects of the paper, but I do know that the multitude of papers about the role of CO2 on global warming predictions have been peer-reviewed and that the evidence for it has accumulated since its original prediction in the mid 1950s.

I do not believe I have been advocating the science about global warming on the basis of stupidity. 

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Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6168 on: June 24, 2017, 03:51:07 PM »
The christianity preached by Starets Zosima is true and honest christianity as I see it. And it is THE opposite of the christianity preached by modern evangelicals for example.
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6169 on: June 24, 2017, 03:53:58 PM »
Sure. Tho considering even Lamarck is back to being hot stuff, Darwin may be right again before we know it.

I am not sure what you are referring to here. Are you writing about epigenetics? It doesn't seem Lamarckian to me.

Quote
Evolutionary theory is completely reinvented every half-generation or so; anything is possible.

Evolutionary theory, at best, changes incrementally with additional elaborations added to it.

Quote
And if you don't believe me, pick up a Cambridge Dictionary of Evolution from the '70s. Heck, "alleles" just become "mutations" since I was in college.

I think you are off by a couple of decades. Alleles became mutations soon after the genetic code was determined in the early to mid 1960s. I learned about it when I was an undergraduate (I would say it was winter 1972-1973 ).
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6170 on: June 24, 2017, 04:08:17 PM »
Sure. Tho considering even Lamarck is back to being hot stuff, Darwin may be right again before we know it.

I am not sure what you are referring to here. Are you writing about epigenetics? It doesn't seem Lamarckian to me.

Quote
Evolutionary theory is completely reinvented every half-generation or so; anything is possible.

Evolutionary theory, at best, changes incrementally with additional elaborations added to it.

Quote
And if you don't believe me, pick up a Cambridge Dictionary of Evolution from the '70s. Heck, "alleles" just become "mutations" since I was in college.

I think you are off by a couple of decades. Alleles became mutations soon after the genetic code was determined in the early to mid 1960s. I learned about it when I was an undergraduate (I would say it was winter 1972-1973 ).

I'm talking about the standard in papers, where the term "alleles" was replaced by a novel, consistent use of the term "mutations." As for the rest, of course you don't "see it." Pro-evolution polemic was the mission that brought you to these forums in the first place years ago. Nobody expects the old party member to "see" the issues with Comrade Lenin.
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Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6171 on: June 24, 2017, 04:16:58 PM »
I dont know what you here who seen to consider me a blasphemous pharisee think about David Bentley Hart, the orthodox theologian, but I do know now that he has thoughts that certainly reminds me of my own. I honestly wonder what course modern Western history would’ve taken if the Crucified God of Love, who many church Fathers(like Gregory of Nyssa and Origen and Iranaeus and the likes) before Augustine preached and wrote about would have been more visible in Western Christianity. Here is Hart's quote:

"In detaching God’s freedom from God’s nature as Goodness, Truth, and Charity — as this theology necessarily, if not always intentionally did — Christian thought laid the foundations for many of those later revolutions in philosophy and morality that would help to produce the post-Christian order. It was inevitable after all, that the object of the voluntarist model of freedom would migrate from the divine to the human will, and that a world evacuated of its ontological continuity with God’s goodness would ultimately find no place for God within itself. And, in early modernity, when the new God of infinite and absolute will had to a very great degree displaced the true God from men’s minds, the new technology of print assured that all Christians would make the acquaintance of this impostor, and through him come to understand true liberty as a personal sovereignty transcending even the dictates and constraints of nature.

Moreover — more crucially — the God thus produced was monstrous: an abyss of pure, predestining omnipotence, whose majesty was revealed at once in his unmerited mercy towards the elect and his righteous wrath against the derelict. And he was to be found in the theologies of almost every school: not only Jansenism, Lutheranism, and Calvinism, but also the theology of the Dominican Thomists, such as Bañez and Alvarez (though the Dominicans, through their superior faculty for specious reasoning, did a better job of convincing themselves that their God as a good God). That modern Western humanity came in large measure to refuse to believe in or worship such a God was ineluctable, and in some sense extremely commendable (no one, after all, can be faulted for preferring atheism to Calvinism or the old ‘two-tiered’ Thomism)."

—David Bentley Hart

Forward to Encounter Between Eastern Orthodoxy and Radical Orthodoxy: Transfiguring the World through the Word. 

Quotes like this following for example : "Without sin and evil, we wouldn’t know that He is as righteous as He is, as loving as He is, and as holy as He is. God allowed sin so that He could display His wrath. Without sin, there would be no display of righteousness, no display of love and no display of holiness." I find utterly foolish, shallow and stupid. But they are common. Yet they unconsciously seek to destroy the whole meaning of christianity as I see it.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 04:28:52 PM by beebert »
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6172 on: June 25, 2017, 01:47:37 AM »

I'm talking about the standard in papers, where the term "alleles" was replaced by a novel, consistent use of the term "mutations."

I am not clear what you mean here. Are you saying that geneticists (if that is what you deem to be the source of standard papers), who are not biochemists, took a while to change their nomenclature? Why do you even care?

Quote
As for the rest, of course you don't "see it." Pro-evolution polemic was the mission that brought you to these forums in the first place years ago. Nobody expects the old party member to "see" the issues with Comrade Lenin.

This statement of yours is a lie.

My statement to you is the truth.

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6173 on: June 25, 2017, 05:30:38 AM »
The uniformitarian presupposition is a plausible scientific presupposition, a logical philosophical assumption that provides a reasonable foundation upon which to test scientific hypotheses. However, the empirical standards of the scientific method demand that the uniformitarian presupposition is always understood as only that – a presupposition. To assert as empirical fact an unproved hypothesis that derives its primary import from an untestable philosophical presupposition is not science but faith. And it may very well be a faith that in time is verified by irrefutable empirical evidence. There are many reasons to believe in UFO’s, but there is no empirical evidence to prove their existence. Likewise, there are many logical arguments for the theory of evolution, but there is no empirical evidence. Science is not what we wish something to be, what we want something to be, what we believe something must be, or what we imagine something to be. Science deals with what can be tested, proved, and empirically validated. Ideas and theories outside of that belong to the realms of religion and philosophy.

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Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6174 on: June 25, 2017, 06:41:53 AM »
The uniformitarian presupposition is a plausible scientific presupposition, a logical philosophical assumption that provides a reasonable foundation upon which to test scientific hypotheses. However, the empirical standards of the scientific method demand that the uniformitarian presupposition is always understood as only that – a presupposition. To assert as empirical fact an unproved hypothesis that derives its primary import from an untestable philosophical presupposition is not science but faith. And it may very well be a faith that in time is verified by irrefutable empirical evidence. There are many reasons to believe in UFO’s, but there is no empirical evidence to prove their existence. Likewise, there are many logical arguments for the theory of evolution, but there is no empirical evidence. Science is not what we wish something to be, what we want something to be, what we believe something must be, or what we imagine something to be. Science deals with what can be tested, proved, and empirically validated. Ideas and theories outside of that belong to the realms of religion and philosophy.

Selam
Well...
'THE world is my representation' as Schopenhauer said, certainly contains some truth. A truth valid for every living creature, though only man can consciously contemplate it. In doing so he attains a certain amount of philosophical wisdom. No truth is more absolutely certain than that all that exists for knowledge, and, therefore, this whole world, is only object in relation to subject, perception of a perceiver - in a word, idea. The world is in this sense representation. So yes. Science is how the world is represented to man. Not necessairly how the world is.
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Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6175 on: June 26, 2017, 08:40:21 PM »
"Could any man of sound judgment suppose that the first, second and third days (of creation) had an evening and a morning, when there were as yet no sun or moon or stars? Could anyone be so unintelligent as to think that God made a paradise somewhere in the east and planted it with trees, like a farmer, or that in that paradise he put a tree of life, a tree you could see and know with your senses, a tree you could derive life from by eating its fruit with the teeth in your head? When the Bible says that God used to walk in paradise in the evening or that Adam hid behind a tree, no one, I think, will question that these are only fictions, stories of things that never actually happened, and that figuratively they refer to certain mysteries." - Origen

Should have been a rule for Christians since Origen uttered these words to take them seriously.
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Offline AlioshaKaramazov

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6176 on: June 26, 2017, 09:28:29 PM »
Ah yes, Origen, that pillar of Orthodoxy. Dumb, dumb Christians.

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6177 on: June 26, 2017, 10:14:59 PM »
Ah yes, Origen, that pillar of Orthodoxy. Dumb, dumb Christians.
TY. I take it as a compliment, coming from you.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 10:18:23 PM by mcarmichael »
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6178 on: June 26, 2017, 10:19:20 PM »
Ah yes, Origen, that pillar of Orthodoxy. Dumb, dumb Christians.
Why don't you just relax?
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

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"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6179 on: June 26, 2017, 10:19:59 PM »
Ah yes, Origen, that pillar of Orthodoxy. Dumb, dumb Christians.

Never fear. He counts Schopenhauer and Nietzsche as our spiritual fathers too.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 10:20:39 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6180 on: June 26, 2017, 10:26:49 PM »
Nothing on twitter yet.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline AlioshaKaramazov

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6181 on: June 26, 2017, 11:43:02 PM »
TY. I take it as a compliment, coming from you.
Who are you?

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6182 on: June 27, 2017, 12:07:57 AM »
TY. I take it as a compliment, coming from you.
Who are you?
just a guy. nobody, really.
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6183 on: June 27, 2017, 12:36:35 AM »
TY. I take it as a compliment, coming from you.
Who are you?
just a guy. nobody, really.
Don't make too much of it. o;
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 12:38:09 AM by mcarmichael »
"Now, don't allow yourself to be fatigued beyond your powers; there's a amiable bein'.
Consider what you owe to society, and don't let yourself be injured by too much work.
For the sake o' your feller-creeturs, keep yourself as quiet as you can; only think what a loss you would be!"
- The very memorable words of Samuel Veller

"Mouth make trouble, mouth make no trouble." - Sun Tzu

"Physician, heal thyself." - Ancient proverb

Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6184 on: June 27, 2017, 03:26:52 AM »
Ah yes, Origen, that pillar of Orthodoxy. Dumb, dumb Christians.
Of Course he is. Brilliant men are always missunderstood by the herd. His anathema is a Sign of his greatness. Because it is obvious how wickedly unfair it was. He was anathemized what... 300 years after his death? Perhaps he never recanted from his grave though right? It is laughable and those who did it are among the greatest unfortunes for christianity. To prefer Justinian to Origen... Wow. A stupid and murderous barbarian to a saint. That really is something to be ashamed of I think.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 03:31:50 AM by beebert »
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Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6185 on: June 27, 2017, 03:45:51 AM »
Ah yes, Origen, that pillar of Orthodoxy. Dumb, dumb Christians.

Never fear. He counts Schopenhauer and Nietzsche as our spiritual fathers too.
Fear? Origen is certainly a spiritual father. And most Christians have herd minds. In heaven it seems like all the most interesting are missing. Schopenhauer a father? Hardly. Nietzsche? No. But what he did was important and admirable. He is once again a missunderstood man because of the herd. The herd that chooses to be enslaved by others instead of using their brain. That herd mentality is behind most evils : It was behind the death of Socrates and Jesus. It was probably behind the death of Most other apostles. It was the reason the inquisition managed be so effective in killing those they wanted to kill. And it was behind many other (basically all or at least most) major evils up until the second world war. And what mentality was it that allowed men like Hitler to rise to power? That same mentality. And People blame Nietzsche... That is pathetic. His philosophy is the OPPOSITE of the Nazi ideas. Nietzsche hated everything they stood for just as Jesus would despise most things most christians have stood for historically(inquisition among other things). To blame Nietzsche for nazism which many do (I am not saying you do) Is the same as to blame Jesus for the inquisition and for all violently forced conversions in history. The herd was what Most great men and women protested against : Plato, Kierlegaard, Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Nietzsche, Simone Weil, just to name a few.
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6186 on: June 27, 2017, 08:21:12 AM »
"Could any man of sound judgment suppose that the first, second and third days (of creation) had an evening and a morning, when there were as yet no sun or moon or stars? Could anyone be so unintelligent as to think that God made a paradise somewhere in the east and planted it with trees, like a farmer, or that in that paradise he put a tree of life, a tree you could see and know with your senses, a tree you could derive life from by eating its fruit with the teeth in your head? When the Bible says that God used to walk in paradise in the evening or that Adam hid behind a tree, no one, I think, will question that these are only fictions, stories of things that never actually happened, and that figuratively they refer to certain mysteries." - Origen

Should have been a rule for Christians since Origen uttered these words to take them seriously.

This verse made me to love Origen very much. And also saint Maximus the Confessor interpreted 6th, 7th and 8th day of Creation allegorically.
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6187 on: June 27, 2017, 10:40:51 PM »
If it's true that most (if not all) of the Fathers were literal six-day creationists, and if it's true that most of the Fathers believed that Scripture is inerrant in its historic account, then that leads me to a nagging doubt:
If literal six-day creationism is factually false, then why trust Scripture and the Fathers at all?
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Offline Jackson02

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6188 on: June 27, 2017, 10:44:46 PM »
How can evolution be compatible with Orthodoxy? Please explain to me.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6189 on: June 27, 2017, 11:17:57 PM »
How can evolution be compatible with Orthodoxy? Please explain to me.

Since evolution is such a very wide subject for which some rather diverse explanations have been made, it's conceivable to some Christians that it leaves room for a Creator. The scientific community officially does not leave such room, however (as evidenced [if there were need of further evidence] by the turmoil last year when a Chinese translator, into English, of a Chinese biology journal chose "maker" for a Chinese word that evidently means more-nearly "nature": the scientists whose paper he translated were under very fierce attack until the explanation emerged.) Yet "theistic evolution" is a rapidly-growing trend in religious circles.

It's clear to me that there needed to be such a compromise, regardless of its merits. This is due to the obvious human problem that a great many (in America, a majority of) scientific researchers are Christians. A great, great many more are students of science in college, even if only for a class or two. There is also the matter of political and cultural pressure from avid fans of evolution, altho I think that's a much lesser problem.

Aside from this, there's some philosophical and theological difficulty with using the narrative in the first few chapters of Genesis as a mathematically-perfect recipe for Creation. And it's true the Church has never met in council to enforce such a view.

In my opinion, the overarching need in a Christian doctrine of Creation is that it give glory to God by assigning him all forethought, invention, and power in an act ex nihilo. A secondary need is that this Work of his be objectively good, in intent and fact, and so evil as we experience it be the result of a fall from that good, from which he is mighty to save us and all creation. Further requirements might be such things as maintaining the exceptionality of man and the end of the world in Judgment. None of these things are a consideration of evolutionary theory as it is commonly taught, and so "theistic evolution" has its work cut out for it.
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Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6190 on: June 28, 2017, 02:37:11 AM »
If it's true that most (if not all) of the Fathers were literal six-day creationists, and if it's true that most of the Fathers believed that Scripture is inerrant in its historic account, then that leads me to a nagging doubt:
If literal six-day creationism is factually false, then why trust Scripture and the Fathers at all?
The scripture isnt a Book of history foremost. It is not the important part.
'Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil' (Exodus 23:2)

Offline beebert

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6191 on: June 28, 2017, 02:56:54 AM »
How can evolution be compatible with Orthodoxy? Please explain to me.

Since evolution is such a very wide subject for which some rather diverse explanations have been made, it's conceivable to some Christians that it leaves room for a Creator. The scientific community officially does not leave such room, however (as evidenced [if there were need of further evidence] by the turmoil last year when a Chinese translator, into English, of a Chinese biology journal chose "maker" for a Chinese word that evidently means more-nearly "nature": the scientists whose paper he translated were under very fierce attack until the explanation emerged.) Yet "theistic evolution" is a rapidly-growing trend in religious circles.

It's clear to me that there needed to be such a compromise, regardless of its merits. This is due to the obvious human problem that a great many (in America, a majority of) scientific researchers are Christians. A great, great many more are students of science in college, even if only for a class or two. There is also the matter of political and cultural pressure from avid fans of evolution, altho I think that's a much lesser problem.

Aside from this, there's some philosophical and theological difficulty with using the narrative in the first few chapters of Genesis as a mathematically-perfect recipe for Creation. And it's true the Church has never met in council to enforce such a view.

In my opinion, the overarching need in a Christian doctrine of Creation is that it give glory to God by assigning him all forethought, invention, and power in an act ex nihilo. A secondary need is that this Work of his be objectively good, in intent and fact, and so evil as we experience it be the result of a fall from that good, from which he is mighty to save us and all creation. Further requirements might be such things as maintaining the exceptionality of man and the end of the world in Judgment. None of these things are a consideration of evolutionary theory as it is commonly taught, and so "theistic evolution" has its work cut out for it.
But The whole distinction of good and evil came after the fall. There is a famous frase in Brothers Karamazov when Starets Zosima, having suffered because of all the evil in the world, realizes a truth that is revealed to him: Beyond Good and evil, in paradise which is an inner State that in glimpses can be realized within us in the here and now, "Everything is good". So Perhaps, most importantly it is to view the fall in an internal way?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 02:58:42 AM by beebert »
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6192 on: June 28, 2017, 09:09:00 AM »
If it's true that most (if not all) of the Fathers were literal six-day creationists, and if it's true that most of the Fathers believed that Scripture is inerrant in its historic account, then that leads me to a nagging doubt:
If literal six-day creationism is factually false, then why trust Scripture and the Fathers at all?
The scripture isnt a Book of history foremost. It is not the important part.
Maybe, but if I can't trust the Scriptures or the Fathers on historical matters, then on what basis can I trust them on spiritual matters, such as the Sacraments and salvation through faith in Christ? The Resurrection of Christ, for example, is a historical claim (though also a spiritual claim). And if Christ didn't Resurrect, then we all know what Paul said about that (1 Cor 15).
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 09:11:25 AM by byhisgrace »
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6193 on: June 28, 2017, 09:25:48 AM »
If it's true that most (if not all) of the Fathers were literal six-day creationists, and if it's true that most of the Fathers believed that Scripture is inerrant in its historic account, then that leads me to a nagging doubt:
If literal six-day creationism is factually false, then why trust Scripture and the Fathers at all?
The scripture isnt a Book of history foremost. It is not the important part.
Maybe, but if I can't trust the Scriptures or the Fathers on historical matters, then on what basis can I trust them on spiritual matters, such as the Sacraments and salvation through faith in Christ? The Resurrection of Christ, for example, is a historical claim (though also a spiritual claim). And if Christ didn't Resurrect, then we all know what Paul said about that (1 Cor 15).
The fathers weren't historians. And God isn't trying to teach us knowledge about history. Isn't the important thing to understand how you die and resurrect with Christ in spirit, rather than to try to prove whether or not Adam really physically ate an apple 6000 years ago? It is spiritual realities that are important. The resurrection was a historical and spiritual event yes. But can you prove that it was physical? Do you need to know that it was physical in order to believe? In this case... We are somewhat commanded to suspend our rational critical thinking and make a leap of faith.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 09:27:27 AM by beebert »
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6194 on: June 28, 2017, 10:35:32 AM »
The fathers weren't historians. And God isn't trying to teach us knowledge about history. Isn't the important thing to understand how you die and resurrect with Christ in spirit, rather than to try to prove whether or not Adam really physically ate an apple 6000 years ago? It is spiritual realities that are important. The resurrection was a historical and spiritual event yes. But can you prove that it was physical? Do you need to know that it was physical in order to believe? In this case... We are somewhat commanded to suspend our rational critical thinking and make a leap of faith.
Fair enough. Thanks.
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6195 on: June 28, 2017, 10:38:19 AM »
Beebert, if fall and salvation are to be made only "internal," then we're without help and miserable, as most of us in fact live in an "external" world filled with "external" suffering. How curious that you get so angry with God, yet when faced with the Christian answer to suffering, the fall and salivation, you show very little interest and want to make them imaginary.
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6196 on: June 28, 2017, 10:40:03 AM »
Wow how did I miss your attack on the resurrection? Yes, we "need to know it was physical to believe," and, no, the Fathers were not unbelievers.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6197 on: June 28, 2017, 11:21:27 AM »
If it's true that most (if not all) of the Fathers were literal six-day creationists, and if it's true that most of the Fathers believed that Scripture is inerrant in its historic account, then that leads me to a nagging doubt:
If literal six-day creationism is factually false, then why trust Scripture and the Fathers at all?
The scripture isnt a Book of history foremost. It is not the important part.
Maybe, but if I can't trust the Scriptures or the Fathers on historical matters, then on what basis can I trust them on spiritual matters, such as the Sacraments and salvation through faith in Christ? The Resurrection of Christ, for example, is a historical claim (though also a spiritual claim). And if Christ didn't Resurrect, then we all know what Paul said about that (1 Cor 15).
The fathers weren't historians. And God isn't trying to teach us knowledge about history. Isn't the important thing to understand how you die and resurrect with Christ in spirit, rather than to try to prove whether or not Adam really physically ate an apple 6000 years ago? It is spiritual realities that are important.

...

We are somewhat commanded to suspend our rational critical thinking and make a leap of faith.

What leaps these are.  "Whether or not Adam really physically ate an apple 6000 years ago" isn't important, so history is not important at all.  These are leaps of nonsense. 

Quote
The resurrection was a historical and spiritual event yes. But can you prove that it was physical? Do you need to know that it was physical in order to believe?

If it wasn't physical, then what was all that fish-eating and Thomas-touching and breakfast-broiling about? 

If the resurrection was a historical event, then it was a physical event.  The NT records the testimony of over five hundred people who bore witness to that, many of whom were alive and known to people at the time the books were written.  So yeah, I need to know that it was physical in order to believe, that's how God revealed it.  But the way I need to know that is not by attempting to recover a body so doctors can do an autopsy and--lo!--turns out he's alive, so I switch to plan B and have him examined by those doctors to figure out what's going on.  There are paths to knowledge other than surgery. 
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6198 on: June 28, 2017, 11:30:29 AM »
Yes the miserable suffering hell.
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6199 on: June 28, 2017, 12:14:10 PM »
Beebert, if fall and salvation are to be made only "internal," then we're without help and miserable, as most of us in fact live in an "external" world filled with "external" suffering. How curious that you get so angry with God, yet when faced with the Christian answer to suffering, the fall and salivation, you show very little interest and want to make them imaginary.
You never understand what I say so I do not care to answer you anymore. Either you choose to trust Christ as a living resurrected person, or you obsess with thinking that believing in a historic event in the past will bring salvation. Either you live, or you spend your life speculating about whether the fall physically took place as described in the Book of genesis. Either you try to live a concrete existence without building up thought systems and fake buildings and constructions, or you don't.
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6200 on: June 28, 2017, 12:31:15 PM »
Beebert, if fall and salvation are to be made only "internal," then we're without help and miserable, as most of us in fact live in an "external" world filled with "external" suffering. How curious that you get so angry with God, yet when faced with the Christian answer to suffering, the fall and salivation, you show very little interest and want to make them imaginary.
You never understand what I say so I do not care to answer you anymore. Either you choose to trust Christ as a living resurrected person, or you obsess with thinking that believing in a historic event in the past will bring salvation. Either you live, or you spend your life speculating about whether the fall physically took place as described in the Book of genesis. Either you try to live a concrete existence without building up thought systems and fake buildings and constructions, or you don't.

There are no such oppositions. God is both real and true. No "obsession" is required, merely conversion.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6201 on: June 28, 2017, 12:43:20 PM »
Wow how did I miss your attack on the resurrection? Yes, we "need to know it was physical to believe," and, no, the Fathers were not unbelievers.
You are pathetic if you Think I attacked the resurrection. I Said it can not proven. Only believed. But I am not surprised by your unintelligent replies anymore.
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6202 on: June 28, 2017, 12:44:09 PM »
Beebert, if fall and salvation are to be made only "internal," then we're without help and miserable, as most of us in fact live in an "external" world filled with "external" suffering. How curious that you get so angry with God, yet when faced with the Christian answer to suffering, the fall and salivation, you show very little interest and want to make them imaginary.
You never understand what I say so I do not care to answer you anymore. Either you choose to trust Christ as a living resurrected person, or you obsess with thinking that believing in a historic event in the past will bring salvation. Either you live, or you spend your life speculating about whether the fall physically took place as described in the Book of genesis. Either you try to live a concrete existence without building up thought systems and fake buildings and constructions, or you don't.

There are no such oppositions. God is both real and true. No "obsession" is required, merely conversion.
And yet you object to what I said
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6203 on: June 28, 2017, 12:44:50 PM »
Wow how did I miss your attack on the resurrection? Yes, we "need to know it was physical to believe," and, no, the Fathers were not unbelievers.
You are pathetic if you Think I attacked the resurrection. I Said it can not proven. Only believed. But I am not surprised by your unintelligent replies anymore.

How does anyone prove anything that happened two thousand years ago?  We don't have any fossils of Jesus, so what do you suggest? 
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6204 on: June 28, 2017, 12:49:20 PM »
If it's true that most (if not all) of the Fathers were literal six-day creationists, and if it's true that most of the Fathers believed that Scripture is inerrant in its historic account, then that leads me to a nagging doubt:
If literal six-day creationism is factually false, then why trust Scripture and the Fathers at all?
The scripture isnt a Book of history foremost. It is not the important part.
Maybe, but if I can't trust the Scriptures or the Fathers on historical matters, then on what basis can I trust them on spiritual matters, such as the Sacraments and salvation through faith in Christ? The Resurrection of Christ, for example, is a historical claim (though also a spiritual claim). And if Christ didn't Resurrect, then we all know what Paul said about that (1 Cor 15).
The fathers weren't historians. And God isn't trying to teach us knowledge about history. Isn't the important thing to understand how you die and resurrect with Christ in spirit, rather than to try to prove whether or not Adam really physically ate an apple 6000 years ago? It is spiritual realities that are important.

...

We are somewhat commanded to suspend our rational critical thinking and make a leap of faith.

What leaps these are.  "Whether or not Adam really physically ate an apple 6000 years ago" isn't important, so history is not important at all.  These are leaps of nonsense. 

Quote
The resurrection was a historical and spiritual event yes. But can you prove that it was physical? Do you need to know that it was physical in order to believe?

If it wasn't physical, then what was all that fish-eating and Thomas-touching and breakfast-broiling about? 

If the resurrection was a historical event, then it was a physical event.  The NT records the testimony of over five hundred people who bore witness to that, many of whom were alive and known to people at the time the books were written.  So yeah, I need to know that it was physical in order to believe, that's how God revealed it.  But the way I need to know that is not by attempting to recover a body so doctors can do an autopsy and--lo!--turns out he's alive, so I switch to plan B and have him examined by those doctors to figure out what's going on.  There are paths to knowledge other than surgery.
Where did I say anything about the resurrection not being historical and physical? What I am saying is that you cant prove it But most Believe it. And that the important thing is Faith in a living concrete person.
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6205 on: June 28, 2017, 12:53:56 PM »
If it's true that most (if not all) of the Fathers were literal six-day creationists, and if it's true that most of the Fathers believed that Scripture is inerrant in its historic account, then that leads me to a nagging doubt:
If literal six-day creationism is factually false, then why trust Scripture and the Fathers at all?
The scripture isnt a Book of history foremost. It is not the important part.
Maybe, but if I can't trust the Scriptures or the Fathers on historical matters, then on what basis can I trust them on spiritual matters, such as the Sacraments and salvation through faith in Christ? The Resurrection of Christ, for example, is a historical claim (though also a spiritual claim). And if Christ didn't Resurrect, then we all know what Paul said about that (1 Cor 15).
The fathers weren't historians. And God isn't trying to teach us knowledge about history. Isn't the important thing to understand how you die and resurrect with Christ in spirit, rather than to try to prove whether or not Adam really physically ate an apple 6000 years ago? It is spiritual realities that are important.

...

We are somewhat commanded to suspend our rational critical thinking and make a leap of faith.

What leaps these are.  "Whether or not Adam really physically ate an apple 6000 years ago" isn't important, so history is not important at all.  These are leaps of nonsense. 

Quote
The resurrection was a historical and spiritual event yes. But can you prove that it was physical? Do you need to know that it was physical in order to believe?

If it wasn't physical, then what was all that fish-eating and Thomas-touching and breakfast-broiling about? 

If the resurrection was a historical event, then it was a physical event.  The NT records the testimony of over five hundred people who bore witness to that, many of whom were alive and known to people at the time the books were written.  So yeah, I need to know that it was physical in order to believe, that's how God revealed it.  But the way I need to know that is not by attempting to recover a body so doctors can do an autopsy and--lo!--turns out he's alive, so I switch to plan B and have him examined by those doctors to figure out what's going on.  There are paths to knowledge other than surgery.
Where did I say anything about the resurrection not being historical and physical? What I am saying is that you cant prove it But most Believe it. And that the important thing is Faith in a living concrete person.

Again, what would you accept as proof that X happened two thousand years ago? 
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6206 on: June 28, 2017, 01:02:03 PM »
If it's true that most (if not all) of the Fathers were literal six-day creationists, and if it's true that most of the Fathers believed that Scripture is inerrant in its historic account, then that leads me to a nagging doubt:
If literal six-day creationism is factually false, then why trust Scripture and the Fathers at all?
The scripture isnt a Book of history foremost. It is not the important part.
Maybe, but if I can't trust the Scriptures or the Fathers on historical matters, then on what basis can I trust them on spiritual matters, such as the Sacraments and salvation through faith in Christ? The Resurrection of Christ, for example, is a historical claim (though also a spiritual claim). And if Christ didn't Resurrect, then we all know what Paul said about that (1 Cor 15).
The fathers weren't historians. And God isn't trying to teach us knowledge about history. Isn't the important thing to understand how you die and resurrect with Christ in spirit, rather than to try to prove whether or not Adam really physically ate an apple 6000 years ago? It is spiritual realities that are important.

...

We are somewhat commanded to suspend our rational critical thinking and make a leap of faith.

What leaps these are.  "Whether or not Adam really physically ate an apple 6000 years ago" isn't important, so history is not important at all.  These are leaps of nonsense. 

Quote
The resurrection was a historical and spiritual event yes. But can you prove that it was physical? Do you need to know that it was physical in order to believe?

If it wasn't physical, then what was all that fish-eating and Thomas-touching and breakfast-broiling about? 

If the resurrection was a historical event, then it was a physical event.  The NT records the testimony of over five hundred people who bore witness to that, many of whom were alive and known to people at the time the books were written.  So yeah, I need to know that it was physical in order to believe, that's how God revealed it.  But the way I need to know that is not by attempting to recover a body so doctors can do an autopsy and--lo!--turns out he's alive, so I switch to plan B and have him examined by those doctors to figure out what's going on.  There are paths to knowledge other than surgery.
Where did I say anything about the resurrection not being historical and physical? What I am saying is that you cant prove it But most Believe it. And that the important thing is Faith in a living concrete person.

Again, what would you accept as proof that X happened two thousand years ago?
Faith
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6207 on: June 28, 2017, 01:08:07 PM »
Again, what would you accept as proof that X happened two thousand years ago?
Faith

Faith in what?
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6208 on: June 28, 2017, 02:13:47 PM »
Again, what would you accept as proof that X happened two thousand years ago?
Faith

Faith in what?
In exactly what made Peter say "Thou art Christ, the son of the living God". The proof comes with faith. Faith is the reward. I don't need a church father to tell me about whether God created the world in 6 days or not for that.
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #6209 on: June 28, 2017, 03:16:00 PM »
Let me put it simple. If you must believe in a literal 6 day creation in order for your faith in Christ not to collapse, then you had no real faith in Christ to start with.
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