Poll

Do you believe that the acount of genesis in the Old testament should be taken literally?

Yes
66 (16.1%)
No
157 (38.4%)
both metaphorically and literally
186 (45.5%)

Total Members Voted: 409

Author Topic: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy  (Read 1303195 times)

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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5760 on: February 20, 2015, 08:03:48 AM »
Sorry guys dont have the time to read through the whole thread but did we reach a general consensus of how we should view evolution?

If we have what was the conclusion?

LMFAO

Offline Niko92

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5761 on: February 20, 2015, 09:00:44 AM »
Sorry guys dont have the time to read through the whole thread but did we reach a general consensus of how we should view evolution?

If we have what was the conclusion?

LMFAO

Believe me after reading through some of it there is that much variety in opinions that the question isnt even funny lol

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5762 on: February 20, 2015, 09:12:40 AM »
Sorry guys dont have the time to read through the whole thread but did we reach a general consensus of how we should view evolution?

If we have what was the conclusion?

LMFAO

Believe me after reading through some of it there is that much variety in opinions that the question isnt even funny lol

I think that would be "no".

Offline Niko92

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5763 on: February 20, 2015, 09:17:38 AM »
Fair call.

Whats your opinion on evolution if you dont mind me asking?

Offline WPM

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5764 on: February 20, 2015, 09:30:51 AM »
The scientific process of life.
Learn meditation.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5765 on: February 20, 2015, 09:38:19 AM »
Fair call.

Whats your opinion on evolution if you dont mind me asking?

It's all over the place. You can check my posting history to get a sense of my confusion. My current position is "believe the Church, but don't get into arguments you can't win".

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5766 on: February 20, 2015, 04:44:16 PM »
Evolution concerns the material cause, creation concerns the formal cause.
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5767 on: March 05, 2015, 10:09:51 PM »
Then how do you reconcile both? I'm a little rusty on my Scholastics.

Offline Rhinosaur

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5768 on: March 05, 2015, 10:15:48 PM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/05/world/jawbones-discovery-fills-barren-evolutionary-period.html?_r=0

Quote
On the morning of Jan. 29, 2013, Chalachew Seyoum was climbing a remote hill in the Afar region of his native Ethiopia, his head bent, eyes focused on the loose sediment. The site, known as Ledi-Geraru, was rich in fossils. Soon enough, he spotted a telltale shape on the surface — a premolar, as it turned out. It was attached to a piece of a mandible, or lower jawbone. He collected other pieces of a left mandible, and five teeth in all.

Mr. Seyoum, a graduate student in paleoanthropology at Arizona State University, had made a discovery that vaulted evolutionary science over a barren stretch of fossil record between two million and three million years ago. This was a time when the human genus, Homo, was getting underway. The 2.8-million-year-old jawbone of a Homo habilis predates by at least 400,000 years any previously known Homo fossils.

More significant, scientists say, is that this H. habilis lived only 200,000 years after the last known evidence of its more apelike predecessors, Australopithecus afarensis, the species made famous by “Lucy,” whose skeleton was found in the 1970s at the nearby Ethiopian site of Hadar.

Offline Raph

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5769 on: June 03, 2015, 12:46:51 PM »
Evolution is the "god" of non-believers.  It actually does not even qualify strictly as a theory.  It is one of those questions we will never know the real answer.  A bit like making definitive statements about The Revelation of John.
You can interpret the information in whatever way you like depending on your bias.  Evolutionists are very quick to make huge public statements about when, in time, and where things happened; however very slow to withdraw their statements when the information changes. They continue to use known fraudulent information in their new books, such as the embryos of Ernst Haeckel, even Wikipedia says they are wrong. They make wonderful drawings of how things "appeared", but these are all in the mind of the artist who makes the drawing.  I have a photocopy of a page from National Geographic some years ago where it says; "I wanted to get a human soul into this apelike face, to indicate something about where he was heading." Just an artist's imagination - John Gurche. The article says, "...educational conjecture, ..."  The Miller–Urey experiment is another example.  It cannot work as any amino acids formed would self destruct.  They have to be artificially tapped off.
The important thing for Orthodox Christians is to know that God was there before Creation, and as the Holy Scriptures said the Universe was spoken into existence.  There are excellent websites on the Creationist side of the argument that are very evangelical, you may not like that, but do not throw out the baby, but have good science backing.  There are strong Orthodox people who hold a Creation view, but then there are some who do not!
The Church Fathers made some very wise statements.  Read and study them before you jump into the subject. The Hexaemeron of St Basil is an easy read and can be downloaded as a pdf from the web. Hold the views of the Church Fathers in high respect and do not argue about this very emotive subject, you will quickly lose your peace and want to win!
Millions and billions are spent on scientific research to try and define the existence of life, but universities and educational institutions will not even employ Christians who hold a Creation view.  How open to honest appraisal is that?  No ethics in the evolution debate I am afraid!
Just believe that God in His time created it.  That is not a cop-out, but a strong honest view. My view is that God is so powerful and mighty He could create the universe in a flash and in His time. Remember He created time as well!

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5770 on: June 03, 2015, 01:26:40 PM »
Then how do you reconcile both? I'm a little rusty on my Scholastics.

As of now, I don't. Conflicting theories exist everywhere (see the Quantum/Relativity debate), each explaining an aspect of reality and none being able to describe the whole.

Genesis is the best by far in describing and explaining human broken nature.

Evolution has overwhelming evidence for the variety of species on the planet.

At the point where we are, we have to just accept these two facts.
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5771 on: June 03, 2015, 07:54:51 PM »
Evolution is the "god" of non-believers.  It actually does not even qualify strictly as a theory.  It is one of those questions we will never know the real answer.  A bit like making definitive statements about The Revelation of John.
You can interpret the information in whatever way you like depending on your bias.  Evolutionists are very quick to make huge public statements about when, in time, and where things happened; however very slow to withdraw their statements when the information changes. They continue to use known fraudulent information in their new books, such as the embryos of Ernst Haeckel, even Wikipedia says they are wrong. They make wonderful drawings of how things "appeared", but these are all in the mind of the artist who makes the drawing.  I have a photocopy of a page from National Geographic some years ago where it says; "I wanted to get a human soul into this apelike face, to indicate something about where he was heading." Just an artist's imagination - John Gurche. The article says, "...educational conjecture, ..."  The Miller–Urey experiment is another example.  It cannot work as any amino acids formed would self destruct.  They have to be artificially tapped off.
The important thing for Orthodox Christians is to know that God was there before Creation, and as the Holy Scriptures said the Universe was spoken into existence.  There are excellent websites on the Creationist side of the argument that are very evangelical, you may not like that, but do not throw out the baby, but have good science backing.  There are strong Orthodox people who hold a Creation view, but then there are some who do not!
The Church Fathers made some very wise statements.  Read and study them before you jump into the subject. The Hexaemeron of St Basil is an easy read and can be downloaded as a pdf from the web. Hold the views of the Church Fathers in high respect and do not argue about this very emotive subject, you will quickly lose your peace and want to win!
Millions and billions are spent on scientific research to try and define the existence of life, but universities and educational institutions will not even employ Christians who hold a Creation view.  How open to honest appraisal is that?  No ethics in the evolution debate I am afraid!
Just believe that God in His time created it.  That is not a cop-out, but a strong honest view. My view is that God is so powerful and mighty He could create the universe in a flash and in His time. Remember He created time as well!

+1


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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5772 on: June 03, 2015, 08:28:57 PM »
Evolution is the "god" of non-believers.  It actually does not even qualify strictly as a theory.  It is one of those questions we will never know the real answer.  A bit like making definitive statements about The Revelation of John.
You can interpret the information in whatever way you like depending on your bias.  Evolutionists are very quick to make huge public statements about when, in time, and where things happened; however very slow to withdraw their statements when the information changes. They continue to use known fraudulent information in their new books, such as the embryos of Ernst Haeckel, even Wikipedia says they are wrong. They make wonderful drawings of how things "appeared", but these are all in the mind of the artist who makes the drawing.  I have a photocopy of a page from National Geographic some years ago where it says; "I wanted to get a human soul into this apelike face, to indicate something about where he was heading." Just an artist's imagination - John Gurche. The article says, "...educational conjecture, ..."  The Miller–Urey experiment is another example.  It cannot work as any amino acids formed would self destruct.  They have to be artificially tapped off.
The important thing for Orthodox Christians is to know that God was there before Creation, and as the Holy Scriptures said the Universe was spoken into existence.  There are excellent websites on the Creationist side of the argument that are very evangelical, you may not like that, but do not throw out the baby, but have good science backing.  There are strong Orthodox people who hold a Creation view, but then there are some who do not!
The Church Fathers made some very wise statements.  Read and study them before you jump into the subject. The Hexaemeron of St Basil is an easy read and can be downloaded as a pdf from the web. Hold the views of the Church Fathers in high respect and do not argue about this very emotive subject, you will quickly lose your peace and want to win!
Millions and billions are spent on scientific research to try and define the existence of life, but universities and educational institutions will not even employ Christians who hold a Creation view.  How open to honest appraisal is that?  No ethics in the evolution debate I am afraid!
Just believe that God in His time created it.  That is not a cop-out, but a strong honest view. My view is that God is so powerful and mighty He could create the universe in a flash and in His time. Remember He created time as well!
Oh dear. This is a train wreck.
God bless!

Offline capleton22

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5773 on: June 03, 2015, 08:41:29 PM »
This is one of the reasons I left Christianity, it hates science.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5774 on: June 03, 2015, 08:44:13 PM »
This is one of the reasons I left Christianity, it hates science.
This is one of the reasons I left atheism. It hates history.
God bless!

Offline capleton22

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5775 on: June 03, 2015, 08:55:13 PM »
Really, how does athiesism hate history?

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5776 on: June 03, 2015, 09:17:23 PM »
Really, how does athiesism hate history?
The same way Christianity hates science.

I'll elaborate. It makes no sense to say Christianity hates science (or for that matter atheism hates history). Have there been Christians throughout history that have taken positions that are scientifically ludicrous? Of course. Similarly, there are atheists who take positions that are historically ludicrous (theories that Christianity caused the "Dark Ages", all wars are the result of religion, etc). The reality is there would be no scientific method without Christians. Most of the earliest scientific experiments were done by monks, friars and others in the religious community. Many early biologists that build a knowledge database that allowed Darwin to even postulate his theory were Christians. After Darwin, many Christians accepted evolution as a valid scientific model.  The fact that you have some nutjob right wingers who don't believe in climate change, evolution or vaccines does not mean that "Christianity" is against them, it just means that there are ignorant people in every group of people. There are agnostics and Christians that are holocaust deniers, there are atheists and Christians who are racists, the list could go on.  The question is, are the dogmas of Christianity contrary to science. The answer is no. The dogmas of Christianity do not in any way comment on any scientific facts or theories just like the dogma of atheism (the lack of a belief in a deity) does not in any way comment on racial equality.  Unfortunately, particularly in the US, you have fundamentalists who feel the need to make every thought that crosses their mind a dogma, but you cannot judge a group by its fringe.
God bless!

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5777 on: June 03, 2015, 09:58:08 PM »
Really, how does athiesism hate history?
The same way Christianity hates science.

I'll elaborate. It makes no sense to say Christianity hates science (or for that matter atheism hates history). Have there been Christians throughout history that have taken positions that are scientifically ludicrous? Of course. Similarly, there are atheists who take positions that are historically ludicrous (theories that Christianity caused the "Dark Ages", all wars are the result of religion, etc). The reality is there would be no scientific method without Christians. Most of the earliest scientific experiments were done by monks, friars and others in the religious community. Many early biologists that build a knowledge database that allowed Darwin to even postulate his theory were Christians. After Darwin, many Christians accepted evolution as a valid scientific model.  The fact that you have some nutjob right wingers who don't believe in climate change, evolution or vaccines does not mean that "Christianity" is against them, it just means that there are ignorant people in every group of people. There are agnostics and Christians that are holocaust deniers, there are atheists and Christians who are racists, the list could go on.  The question is, are the dogmas of Christianity contrary to science. The answer is no. The dogmas of Christianity do not in any way comment on any scientific facts or theories just like the dogma of atheism (the lack of a belief in a deity) does not in any way comment on racial equality.  Unfortunately, particularly in the US, you have fundamentalists who feel the need to make every thought that crosses their mind a dogma, but you cannot judge a group by its fringe.
+1
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5778 on: June 03, 2015, 09:59:41 PM »
Then how do you reconcile both? I'm a little rusty on my Scholastics.

As of now, I don't. Conflicting theories exist everywhere (see the Quantum/Relativity debate), each explaining an aspect of reality and none being able to describe the whole.

Genesis is the best by far in describing and explaining human broken nature.

Evolution has overwhelming evidence for the variety of species on the planet.

At the point where we are, we have to just accept these two facts.

This is perhaps one of the best posts I think here.  It shows a level of maturity, acknowledging the facts of science and the spiritual facts of Genesis.  I absolutely agree.  To try to "harmonize" both is missing the point, and probably beyond our capabilities at this moment.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline capleton22

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5779 on: June 03, 2015, 10:12:46 PM »
I see what you are saying but I disagree. Christians have been suppressing knowledge and science since they came to power. After the lynching of hypatia and the burning of the library of Alexandria in 391 AD, no advances in science were made until the 1400.  Sure some monks preserved Aristotle and Plato but the destruction those monks caused were much greater, burning down temples and numerous libraries like the school of Athens.
I am sure the the Church would love to take credit for the foundations of the scientific method but it was Greek pagans who actually did.

In my experience I have never met a Christian who really liked science and many were very ignorant of history as well.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5780 on: June 03, 2015, 10:15:31 PM »
The important thing for Orthodox Christians is to know that God was there before Creation, and as the Holy Scriptures said the Universe was spoken into existence.  There are excellent websites on the Creationist side of the argument that are very evangelical, you may not like that, but do not throw out the baby, but have good science backing.  There are strong Orthodox people who hold a Creation view, but then there are some who do not!

The Church Fathers made some very wise statements.  Read and study them before you jump into the subject. The Hexaemeron of St Basil is an easy read and can be downloaded as a pdf from the web. Hold the views of the Church Fathers in high respect and do not argue about this very emotive subject, you will quickly lose your peace and want to win!

Millions and billions are spent on scientific research to try and define the existence of life, but universities and educational institutions will not even employ Christians who hold a Creation view.  How open to honest appraisal is that?  No ethics in the evolution debate I am afraid!

Just believe that God in His time created it.  That is not a cop-out, but a strong honest view. My view is that God is so powerful and mighty He could create the universe in a flash and in His time. Remember He created time as well!

With the exception of what I left out, and what I struck out here, I do not disagree.  I think the problem is not evolution itself, but interpreting the Scriptures and Church fathers and the science of evolution into something that they are not, and this is something that both Christians (including Orthodox) and atheists make mistakes in.

What I left out from your post however is simply a misrepresentation of scientists' views, and it is not difficult to challenge and to change theories when it is met with good research.  The problem is, creationism as is understood is not "good science" and has no supporting "good research".  That is why no one would hire them because they fundamentally do not conduct science correctly.  It is as if one is hiring a surgeon or ER physician who does not acknowledge the fact and practice of blood transfusion and certain medications.  Why would one hire a physician who does not practice medicine correctly, endangering the profession (and the lives of many affected by it)?

I have mentioned earlier that creationism is poor science and poor theology for a few reasons:

1. Either the Creator can be tested with material and sensual means, in which case, the Creator is not the transcended and infinite Pantocrator we believe in.

2. If the Creator who is the transcendent and infinite Pantocrator can be tested "by science", then we defined science as that which can pry into the divine nature, in which case, science (and all creation in general) becomes co-essential with God.

3. If science is loosely defined to include other areas of speculative studies, then we lose the consistency of scientific study and the scientific method, and there is no limit to what else can be included as "science", including astrology, witchcraft, and psychic studies.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5781 on: June 03, 2015, 10:17:00 PM »
I see what you are saying but I disagree. Christians have been suppressing knowledge and science since they came to power. After the lynching of hypatia and the burning of the library of Alexandria in 391 AD, no advances in science were made until the 1400.  Sure some monks preserved Aristotle and Plato but the destruction those monks caused were much greater, burning down temples and numerous libraries like the school of Athens.
I am sure the the Church would love to take credit for the foundations of the scientific method but it was Greek pagans who actually did.

In my experience I have never met a Christian who really liked science and many were very ignorant of history as well.

There's a reason why Trisagion says "atheists hate history".  There is a lot of misrepresentation of the history here.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5782 on: June 03, 2015, 10:54:03 PM »
I see what you are saying but I disagree. Christians have been suppressing knowledge and science since they came to power. After the lynching of hypatia and the burning of the library of Alexandria in 391 AD, no advances in science were made until the 1400.  Sure some monks preserved Aristotle and Plato but the destruction those monks caused were much greater, burning down temples and numerous libraries like the school of Athens.
I am sure the the Church would love to take credit for the foundations of the scientific method but it was Greek pagans who actually did.

In my experience I have never met a Christian who really liked science and many were very ignorant of history as well.
That is not at all true. Maybe atheism does hate history after all. First, the library of Alexandria was burned by Julius Caesar, so it was actually a pagan that burned down all that knowledge and science. Second, the only things that are referenced as being destroyed by Pope Cyril were pagan religious objects. That is not a suppression of science. Third, even if things happened your way, Pope Cyril is one person. It is hardly fair to attribute the destruction of science to Christianity because one guy burned down a library. Fourth, your timeline ignores Occam's Razor, Roger Bacon's move to use empirical methods to study nature and Optics, Robert Grosseteste's works on astronomy, the use of mathematics in the field of physics, findings on the properties of light and reliable timekeeping through the use of hourglasses.


God bless!

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5783 on: June 03, 2015, 11:00:12 PM »
After the lynching of hypatia
The lynching of hypatia did not have to do with her paganism or her philosophy.

and the burning of the library of Alexandria in 391 AD
The library of Alexandria did not burn in 391 AD; it had burned centuries earlier.

no advances in science were made until the 1400.
Patently false.

Sure some monks preserved Aristotle and Plato but the destruction those monks caused were much greater, burning down temples and numerous libraries like the school of Athens.
Transferred to the University of Constantinople where innovations were made, methods and philosophy refined. Plus the Christian and Jewish centers of science seized by the caliphates where Christians and Jews continued to play pivotal roles in philosophy and science.

Educate yourself on something other than second-hand Gibbon, son.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 11:00:41 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5784 on: June 03, 2015, 11:02:58 PM »
It's amazing no matter where you went in the ancient Islamic world, the praise of "Islamic science" was not really that Islamic, as it was also equally, if not more so, Jewish and Christian (whether it be Byzantine, Miaphysite, or Nestorian).
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5785 on: June 03, 2015, 11:10:31 PM »
Educate yourself on something other than second-hand Gibbon, son.

You're special. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline capleton22

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5786 on: June 03, 2015, 11:36:08 PM »
How do I use the quote system for individual sentences/statements?

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5787 on: June 03, 2015, 11:44:07 PM »
How do I use the quote system for individual sentences/statements?
You have to add in the [/quote] where you want the quote to end and {quote} (used brackets instead of braces) where you want to start quoting again.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5788 on: June 03, 2015, 11:44:40 PM »
Or you can highlight a word or sentence that you copied into your post, and click on the word bubble that is under the "font size" area.
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Offline capleton22

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5789 on: June 04, 2015, 12:36:05 AM »
I see what you are saying but I disagree. Christians have been suppressing knowledge and science since they came to power. After the lynching of hypatia and the burning of the library of Alexandria in 391 AD, no advances in science were made until the 1400.  Sure some monks preserved Aristotle and Plato but the destruction those monks caused were much greater, burning down temples and numerous libraries like the school of Athens.
I am sure the the Church would love to take credit for the foundations of the scientific method but it was Greek pagans who actually did.

In my experience I have never met a Christian who really liked science and many were very ignorant of history as well.

There's a reason why Trisagion says "atheists hate history".  There is a lot of misrepresentation of the history here.

Not very relevant since I am not an atheist, I in fact would say that it is Christians who hate history and try to deny it, however I have never met an atheist doing so.

Offline capleton22

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5790 on: June 04, 2015, 12:47:21 AM »
After the lynching of hypatia
The lynching of hypatia did not have to do with her paganism or her philosophy.

Yes it did, hell the late empire even set up death camps for polythiest philosophers in skyropolos. To say she was not lynched for beliefs is absurd

and the burning of the library of Alexandria in 391 AD
The library of Alexandria did not burn in 391 AD; it had burned centuries earlier.

I am aware that ceaser burnt it earlier but in 391 a christian mob burnt it, along with with the Temple of Serapis and then the Muslims did later.

no advances in science were made until the 1400.
Patently false.

What advances were made during the Byzantine empire besides Greek fire and improved trebuchets and catapults?

Sure some monks preserved Aristotle and Plato but the destruction those monks caused were much greater, burning down temples and numerous libraries like the school of Athens.
Transferred to the University of Constantinople where innovations were made, methods and philosophy refined. Plus the Christian and Jewish centers of science seized by the caliphates where Christians and Jews continued to play pivotal roles in philosophy and science.

Again what advances were made?

Educate yourself on something other than second-hand Gibbon, son.

Sure buddy guy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5791 on: June 04, 2015, 01:07:15 AM »
nvm.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 01:09:07 AM by Volnutt »
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5792 on: June 04, 2015, 01:10:43 AM »
I see what you are saying but I disagree. Christians have been suppressing knowledge and science since they came to power. After the lynching of hypatia and the burning of the library of Alexandria in 391 AD, no advances in science were made until the 1400.  Sure some monks preserved Aristotle and Plato but the destruction those monks caused were much greater, burning down temples and numerous libraries like the school of Athens.
I am sure the the Church would love to take credit for the foundations of the scientific method but it was Greek pagans who actually did.

In my experience I have never met a Christian who really liked science and many were very ignorant of history as well.

There's a reason why Trisagion says "atheists hate history".  There is a lot of misrepresentation of the history here.

Not very relevant since I am not an atheist, I in fact would say that it is Christians who hate history and try to deny it, however I have never met an atheist doing so.

Joe Stalin certainly fits the bill.

There are Christians who think lying about history or science will help the faith just there are atheists and pagans who think it will help whatever their pet ideology is.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5793 on: June 04, 2015, 01:13:30 AM »

I am aware that ceaser burnt it earlier but in 391 a christian mob burnt it, along with with the Temple of Serapis and then the Muslims did later.
Therefore, to place the loss of scientific discovery on the 391 incident is rather disingenuous, don't you think? The ancient Greek works had already been burned by Caesar and what wasn't, ended up being burnt by the Muslims.  How exactly then, did the Christians cause the end of the pagan "scientific revolution"?

What advances were made during the Byzantine empire besides Greek fire and improved trebuchets and catapults?
Architectural improvements to arches and domes
Vastly improved social welfare programs for the poor
Metal heavy ploughs allowing significantly increased food production



Again what advances were made?

What I stated above, plus that does not include the items I mentioned previously that were developed in the west.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5794 on: June 04, 2015, 01:18:42 AM »
What the heck is "skyropolos?" A google search returns nothing.

I've never heard that the Byzantine empire killed pagans. Closed their academies, yes. But they didn't kill them. Gemistus Pletho (who, by the way, advocated that gays be burned at the stake) certainly lived to a ripe old age and was even respected by the emperor for his ethics.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5795 on: June 04, 2015, 01:45:30 AM »
Evolution is the "god" of non-believers.  It actually does not even qualify strictly as a theory.  It is one of those questions we will never know the real answer.  A bit like making definitive statements about The Revelation of John.
You can interpret the information in whatever way you like depending on your bias.  Evolutionists are very quick to make huge public statements about when, in time, and where things happened; however very slow to withdraw their statements when the information changes. They continue to use known fraudulent information in their new books, such as the embryos of Ernst Haeckel, even Wikipedia says they are wrong. They make wonderful drawings of how things "appeared", but these are all in the mind of the artist who makes the drawing.  I have a photocopy of a page from National Geographic some years ago where it says; "I wanted to get a human soul into this apelike face, to indicate something about where he was heading." Just an artist's imagination - John Gurche. The article says, "...educational conjecture, ..."  The Miller–Urey experiment is another example.  It cannot work as any amino acids formed would self destruct.  They have to be artificially tapped off.
The important thing for Orthodox Christians is to know that God was there before Creation, and as the Holy Scriptures said the Universe was spoken into existence.  There are excellent websites on the Creationist side of the argument that are very evangelical, you may not like that, but do not throw out the baby, but have good science backing.  There are strong Orthodox people who hold a Creation view, but then there are some who do not!
The Church Fathers made some very wise statements.  Read and study them before you jump into the subject. The Hexaemeron of St Basil is an easy read and can be downloaded as a pdf from the web. Hold the views of the Church Fathers in high respect and do not argue about this very emotive subject, you will quickly lose your peace and want to win!
Millions and billions are spent on scientific research to try and define the existence of life, but universities and educational institutions will not even employ Christians who hold a Creation view.  How open to honest appraisal is that?  No ethics in the evolution debate I am afraid!
Just believe that God in His time created it.  That is not a cop-out, but a strong honest view. My view is that God is so powerful and mighty He could create the universe in a flash and in His time. Remember He created time as well!
Oh dear. This is a train wreck.

Other than the beginning statement that "evolution is the god of the unbelievers," which I think is a bit too harsh, the rest of his points seem to be pretty sound as far as I can tell. His post is certainly no more of a train wreck than this entire thread.  ;)

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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5796 on: June 04, 2015, 09:22:08 AM »
touche
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Offline capleton22

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5797 on: June 05, 2015, 02:58:52 PM »
What the heck is "skyropolos?" A google search returns nothing.

I've never heard that the Byzantine empire killed pagans. Closed their academies, yes. But they didn't kill them. Gemistus Pletho (who, by the way, advocated that gays be burned at the stake) certainly lived to a ripe old age and was even respected by the emperor for his ethics.

I meant scythopolis, in Syria. It is mentioned by Ammianus Marcelllinus several times. It is the death camp that the Church sent Hellenes and Arians to.
Rubbish a ton were killed.

Offline capleton22

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5798 on: June 05, 2015, 03:01:54 PM »
I see what you are saying but I disagree. Christians have been suppressing knowledge and science since they came to power. After the lynching of hypatia and the burning of the library of Alexandria in 391 AD, no advances in science were made until the 1400.  Sure some monks preserved Aristotle and Plato but the destruction those monks caused were much greater, burning down temples and numerous libraries like the school of Athens.
I am sure the the Church would love to take credit for the foundations of the scientific method but it was Greek pagans who actually did.

In my experience I have never met a Christian who really liked science and many were very ignorant of history as well.

There's a reason why Trisagion says "atheists hate history".  There is a lot of misrepresentation of the history here.

Not very relevant since I am not an atheist, I in fact would say that it is Christians who hate history and try to deny it, however I have never met an atheist doing so.

Joe Stalin certainly fits the bill.

There are Christians who think lying about history or science will help the faith just there are atheists and pagans who think it will help whatever their pet ideology is.

Oh you mean the former seminar student? What was his view on history?

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5799 on: June 05, 2015, 03:05:14 PM »
I have to say, people bringing up Stalin's seminary education as evidence that he was not really an atheist is one of the stupidest canards in modern anti-Christian polemics.
Quote
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5800 on: June 05, 2015, 03:31:22 PM »
I have to say, people bringing up Stalin's seminary education as evidence that he was not really an atheist is one of the stupidest canards in modern anti-Christian polemics.

Or in Orthodoxy's Stalin cultists.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5801 on: June 05, 2015, 03:56:52 PM »
I see what you are saying but I disagree. Christians have been suppressing knowledge and science since they came to power. After the lynching of hypatia and the burning of the library of Alexandria in 391 AD, no advances in science were made until the 1400.  Sure some monks preserved Aristotle and Plato but the destruction those monks caused were much greater, burning down temples and numerous libraries like the school of Athens.
I am sure the the Church would love to take credit for the foundations of the scientific method but it was Greek pagans who actually did.

In my experience I have never met a Christian who really liked science and many were very ignorant of history as well.

There's a reason why Trisagion says "atheists hate history".  There is a lot of misrepresentation of the history here.

Not very relevant since I am not an atheist, I in fact would say that it is Christians who hate history and try to deny it, however I have never met an atheist doing so.

Joe Stalin certainly fits the bill.

There are Christians who think lying about history or science will help the faith just there are atheists and pagans who think it will help whatever their pet ideology is.

Oh you mean the former seminar student? What was his view on history?

Dawkins was an altar boy.  I guess that makes him a very devout Christian.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5802 on: June 05, 2015, 07:40:02 PM »
There was a time I enjoyed rebutting anti-evolutionist stances, but I've come to peace that it's OK now. Instead of arguing about evolution we should first get clear on what science is and does (including scientific theories). Then it won't be such a bogeyman to those Christians that feel threatened it will upend the narrative they so desperately cling to as truth.

I'd rather read a really good defense on a deep poetic interpretation of Genesis than turning it "literally" which would baffle me.
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5803 on: June 05, 2015, 08:52:26 PM »
Which do you think will happen first: a unified philosophy of science, or a unified interpretation of Genesis? I'm not expecting either one any time soon, tbh...  8)
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Offline RobS

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Re: Creationism, Evolution, and Orthodoxy
« Reply #5804 on: June 06, 2015, 11:02:54 AM »
Which do you think will happen first: a unified philosophy of science, or a unified interpretation of Genesis? I'm not expecting either one any time soon, tbh...  8)
What do you mean by this?

The only time philosophy is ever used is to question methodological naturalism (which is what defines science), as it should since its not making predictions about observable facts within the observable universe. Rather philosophy asks more fundamental questions, such as why do/should we care, etc. Science can't answer those types of questions and doesn't need to.

I encourage you to read this wiki:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Methodological_naturalism

Quote
Methodological naturalism is the label for the required assumption of philosophical naturalism when working with the scientific method. Methodological naturalists limit their scientific research to the study of natural causes, because any attempts to define causal relationships with the supernatural are never fruitful, and result in the creation of scientific "dead ends" and God of the gaps-type hypotheses. To avoid these traps scientists assume that all causes are empirical and naturalistic; which means they can be measured, quantified and studied methodically.

However, this assumption of naturalism need not extend beyond an assumption of methodology. This is what separates methodological naturalism from philosophical naturalism - the former is merely a tool and makes no truth claim; while the latter makes the philosophical - essentially atheistic - claim that only natural causes exist.

This is precisely my view on science. Philosophical naturalism is really bad philosophy.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 11:07:13 AM by nothing »
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI